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Old 10-07-2011, 06:51 PM   #121
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Rothgar titled the thread:

20 words or less: Sum up your PvP complaints.

When you removed my ability to acquire pve gear in a pvp context, and vice versa, you removed my interest.

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Old 10-07-2011, 07:53 PM   #122
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Having to do hours upon hours of pve content to be good at pvp isnt what pvp is about, it should be skill based and know how the pvp game Mechanics work. I mean lets face it the people that raid hours upon hours a week to acquire there gear just are not pvpers. The stat separation proves that. if they cared about pvp at all they would be out there regardless, but they are not, so stop complaining. Gear separation is the best thing they did for pvp on this server. It makes the gear balance somewhat even and the majority of the great pvpers still on this server are skill based not gear based.

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Old 10-07-2011, 09:05 PM   #123
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Elwin wrote:

Having to do hours upon hours of pve content to be good at pvp isnt what pvp is about, it should be skill based and know how the pvp game Mechanics work. I mean lets face it the people that raid hours upon hours a week to acquire there gear just are not pvpers. The stat separation proves that. if they cared about pvp at all they would be out there regardless, but they are not, so stop complaining. Gear separation is the best thing they did for pvp on this server. It makes the gear balance somewhat even and the majority of the great pvpers still on this server are skill based not gear based.

+1

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Old 10-08-2011, 12:25 AM   #124
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[email protected] wrote:

Elwin wrote:

Having to do hours upon hours of pve content to be good at pvp isnt what pvp is about, it should be skill based and know how the pvp game Mechanics work. I mean lets face it the people that raid hours upon hours a week to acquire there gear just are not pvpers. The stat separation proves that. if they cared about pvp at all they would be out there regardless, but they are not, so stop complaining. Gear separation is the best thing they did for pvp on this server. It makes the gear balance somewhat even and the majority of the great pvpers still on this server are skill based not gear based.

+1

This is a mistaken premise, as incentivizing the PvE-incompetent with a chance at procuring a decent, introductory PvE set is sound itemization, due to the numbers wrangled out of their interest.

The problem was in A. giving away DoV PvP gear essentially for free (crafted gear is seriously near-equivalent to "full faction gear") & B. significantly lowering the price of PvP gear compared to The Shadow Odyssey -- first in Sentinel's Fate, then in Destiny of Velious.

If these things hadn't been done, collaborating/compound incentive to acquire PvP gear would've been healthy.

Such missteps are ones that can be corrected in the future.

Consider both Rift & WoW (& the populous PvP activity during TSO in EQ2) & realize that easymode rewards only make for a populace brought to boredom with greater expedition.

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Old 10-08-2011, 12:55 AM   #125
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[email protected] wrote:

Elwin wrote:

Having to do hours upon hours of pve content to be good at pvp isnt what pvp is about, it should be skill based and know how the pvp game Mechanics work. I mean lets face it the people that raid hours upon hours a week to acquire there gear just are not pvpers. The stat separation proves that. if they cared about pvp at all they would be out there regardless, but they are not, so stop complaining. Gear separation is the best thing they did for pvp on this server. It makes the gear balance somewhat even and the majority of the great pvpers still on this server are skill based not gear based.

+1

-1

While I will not argue the separation of stats/gear has made PvP mechanics better, it has removed a certain segment of our population that use to PvP… on occasion.  I would be willing to bet the separation of stats/gear has contributed to the decline in people running BGs.

This separation has removed half of the game for me, I would like to run instances or raid occasionally.  I would like to get some loot from mobs that would be viable to PvP with, and not just from killing players.  I have worked hard for a complete set of PvP gear that I can’t run an instance in it effectively.  I can’t even kill an overland mob efficiently for that matter!

I just want things to be equal.  TSO RoK PvP and raid armor was very close to being equal, all it need was some minor tweaking.  The big down side to TSO RoK was the lack of PvP weapons and jewelry raid drops were way better.

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Old 10-08-2011, 01:45 AM   #126
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1. PVP fame system is a joke, No one wants to be titled when the Bounty on your head is so high.  Ive been playing since pvp started, and this is the worst system...except the class specific writs, those were terrible.

2. get rid of or modify the pve gear that is used in pvp...in many cases my pvp weaponry/jewelery is way worse then the heavy pve players. that is ridiculous for a pvp server.  The "easy" drop bows in instances are better then mine..yes im a ranger. 

3.  BGs pulls away players...no suggestion there, it was a bad idea from the start.

ill post more when i think of it, but its basically what everyone else said.

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Old 10-08-2011, 01:54 AM   #127
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I dont  get how people use gear seperation as an excuse to avoid pvp.

15ish slots are best equipt with raid gear and the other 7ish are the only pvp pieces you need to wear, hey 7 rares and a tradeskiller who can make the gear is the only thing seperating anyone from being competitive in pvp.

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Old 10-08-2011, 02:07 AM   #128
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Elwin wrote:

Having to do hours upon hours of pve content to be good at pvp isnt what pvp is about, it should be skill based and know how the pvp game Mechanics work. I mean lets face it the people that raid hours upon hours a week to acquire there gear just are not pvpers. The stat separation proves that. if they cared about pvp at all they would be out there regardless, but they are not, so stop complaining. Gear separation is the best thing they did for pvp on this server. It makes the gear balance somewhat even and the majority of the great pvpers still on this server are skill based not gear based.

Raid equipment only becomes the best when the Developers decide to stop itemizing REAL PvP Sets - not the grabage BG Armor people have been accepting as PvP Armor these days. I dont know if any of you even remember but Echoes of Faydwer, Rise of Kunark, and The Shadow Odyssey were the last three expansions to have actual PvP Armor made for our Server. Those expansions had REAL PvP Sets that could be earned in PvP and rivaled the strength of Raid equipment of the day, players then had the choice to gear up through either playstyle, PvP or PvE and still be competitive. Thats how it should be on our Ruleset.

Everything since TSO has essentially been equipment made for the BG Players; PvPers get the simple cloned version thrown on our Vendors and given a different name and a generic set bonus to keep the masses happy, and thats the bottom line. Its been going on so long now people are starting to think thats how it should be.

What the need to do is KILL the seperation of PvE/PvP statistics on equipment once and for all and tune Player Mechanics to compensate by reducing PvP Auto-Attack damage and increasing PvP Ability damage then making toughness a functional derivative statistic of Stamina. Then they can focus on fixing our outdated PvP Sets.

PvP Sets should start appearing at 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90. They should be made to generally mirror the strength of Raid Armor within the level they are aquired at but have unique PvP specific effects and set bonuses attached to them. They should also allow for the individual Armor pieces to be upgraded following a "Tier" based approach. So a player could for example earn a level 90 T1 PvP Bracer with Faction and Tokens then later down the road as they gain more Faction and Tokens purchase the T2 PvP Bracer upgrade by handing in their old T1 Bracer plus some more Tokens. This kind of progression would be very similar to the varying tiers of Raid Armor.

Outside of having "proper" PvP Sets again they could also revamp the original Vintage wares making them valid PvP equipment based on the statistics of today, and then add in new miscellaneous accessories and weaponry with unique PvP based effects attached to them across all level ranges to round things out.

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Old 10-08-2011, 03:49 AM   #129
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Elwin wrote:

Having to do hours upon hours of pve content to be good at pvp isnt what pvp is about, it should be skill based and know how the pvp game Mechanics work. I mean lets face it the people that raid hours upon hours a week to acquire there gear just are not pvpers. The stat separation proves that. if they cared about pvp at all they would be out there regardless, but they are not, so stop complaining. Gear separation is the best thing they did for pvp on this server. It makes the gear balance somewhat even and the majority of the great pvpers still on this server are skill based not gear based.

+1

-1

While I will not argue the separation of stats/gear has made PvP mechanics better, it has removed a certain segment of our population that use to PvP… on occasion.  I would be willing to bet the separation of stats/gear has contributed to the decline in people running BGs.

This separation has removed half of the game for me, I would like to run instances or raid occasionally.  I would like to get some loot from mobs that would be viable to PvP with, and not just from killing players.  I have worked hard for a complete set of PvP gear that I can’t run an instance in it effectively.  I can’t even kill an overland mob efficiently for that matter!

I just want things to be equal.  TSO PvP and raid armor was very close to being equal, all it need was some minor tweaking.  The big down side to TSO was the lack of PvP weapons and jewelry raid drops were way better.

Except the MC PVP gear is about 90% as good as the openworld PVP gear... a fully raid geared player can still decimate in PVP with raid jewelry / weapons and MC PVP gear to supplement toughness and crit mit / potency for PVP and they will walk around with 10-15k MORE HP then those wearing all PVP gear...  

SOE made crit mit and toughness about worthless in PVP, so the jewelry provides almost no benefit in the form of toughness.... and seing as how the VAST majority of Crit bonus / potency comes from PVP armor, MC is nearly as good as openworld.....

so the hard core raider / casual PVP'r can still come out and have an even playing field... trust me, SOE designed it that way, because if its one thing they know, PVE raiders are some of the most whining cry babies on the planet, and god forbid they be at a disadvantage in PVP for killing a scripted mob for 5 hours... instead of PVP'ng for that same 5 hours...

so they made the 90 MC PVP gear the way it is to shut them up and made the open world PVP gear very very very very slightly better to shut the PVP community up, so they couldn't say that MC gear is as good as open world gear...  but in reality, when coupled with raid jewelry / weapons, it makes no difference...

Stat separation, but only partial stats, so to be the best in PVP you need part PVP gear and mostly Raid gear...   a coincidence? not hardly

It doesn't matter, raiders will always get their way in the end... especially now that SOE is driving all the PVP'rs out of the game with completely broken PVP mechanics for 1/4 of the expansion and zero PVP accessories for an entire expansion...  they will have no PVP'rs to complain about it and can eventually go back to raid gear is better then all.. and can merge Naggy with a blue server... thus only putting out BG gear

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Old 10-08-2011, 03:58 AM   #130
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Elwin wrote:

Having to do hours upon hours of pve content to be good at pvp isnt what pvp is about, it should be skill based and know how the pvp game Mechanics work. I mean lets face it the people that raid hours upon hours a week to acquire there gear just are not pvpers. The stat separation proves that. if they cared about pvp at all they would be out there regardless, but they are not, so stop complaining. Gear separation is the best thing they did for pvp on this server. It makes the gear balance somewhat even and the majority of the great pvpers still on this server are skill based not gear based.

+1

-1

While I will not argue the separation of stats/gear has made PvP mechanics better, it has removed a certain segment of our population that use to PvP… on occasion.  I would be willing to bet the separation of stats/gear has contributed to the decline in people running BGs.

This separation has removed half of the game for me, I would like to run instances or raid occasionally.  I would like to get some loot from mobs that would be viable to PvP with, and not just from killing players.  I have worked hard for a complete set of PvP gear that I can’t run an instance in it effectively.  I can’t even kill an overland mob efficiently for that matter!

I just want things to be equal.  TSO PvP and raid armor was very close to being equal, all it need was some minor tweaking.  The big down side to TSO was the lack of PvP weapons and jewelry raid drops were way better.

I would have to disagree with this and give +1 towards the original poster.

PvP should be separated from PvE. It makes sense that someone who fights NPCs all day shouldn't be given an edge over someone who fights other players all day. This game needs to be dependent on skill, not gear. If PvE gear was useable in PvP, you would have noobs that had no idea how to play PvP with the best gear in the game. It should be people who know how to PvP having the best gear in the game.

Also, the PvP/PvE split  helps put everyone on the same level field in PvP. There are no "raid pvp items," only items bought off the PvP merchent through tokens that can be acquired by anyone. PvE gear can be extremely unbalanced, and also very hard to get, which pretty much excludes anyone who doesn't raid hardcore or doesn't have the time to do so.

 Yet again, if we had PvE gear useable in PvP, we would gradually see those who are best at pvp are only good because they are in raid guilds, and soon the only way to compete with them will be by spending numerous hours trying to raid for the same gear, something that over 50% of the population can't do.

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Old 10-08-2011, 04:31 AM   #131
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LV 80 TSO PvP Sets and Gear look at them and apply to the rest of the Tiers for PvP Sets and Gear

Issue solved as far as PvP gear goes.  The rest well you see what some of your player base has to say.

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Old 10-08-2011, 04:56 AM   #132
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OK remember that our pvp servers are and will always be as long as there are people wanting to and willing to pvp a pvpve server. We came to this server to battle against other players and the game itself. The noncontested zones are fine so are the noncontested raid zones, except that when SoE removed the Avatars from all servers and only put in a few contested raid mobs in the open world our pvpve raid guilds are raiding the noncontested raid zones insted of pvping to kill that raid mob for it's uber gear. We want contested raid mobs that drop gear that only they drop, that is just as useable in pvp as in pve. I remember during the TG zerg Oynx coming in an x2 raid and fighting. Yes sometimes it was freeps verses exiles and q's then Oynx taking on the q's and sometimes it was a free for all with in the 3 faction all pvping for the sake of pvping. This server was more fun when we didn't have to swtich gear out between pvp and pve because one set only works in one type of fight. Roll back the pvp rule set to pre-Sent Fate pvp and get ride of the seperatation and give us some more contested raid mobs that drop there own loot table of raid gear like the Avatars did.

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Old 10-08-2011, 05:08 AM   #133
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Splatterpunk28 wrote:

Highest Priorities:

  • Leapers, gliders and flying mounts should be disabled on pvp server completely, during WF at least, and/or all speed bonuses should be disabled the moment a pvp attack is given or received.
  • Flag for WF token rewards should only be given if you actually engage in pvp during that WF.
  • Exiles should get pvp writs and armor access.  Have one harder tower for each faction, instead of two in WF.
  • Auto-Attack and CC abilities should be looked at for balancing.
  • Release new pvp jewelry/weapons and fix DoV bg/pvp armor stats (esp for mages).
  • Separate pvp/pve crit chance.

+1

-And make pvp tokens no trade, not heirloom.

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Old 10-08-2011, 05:12 AM   #134
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Elwin wrote:

Having to do hours upon hours of pve content to be good at pvp isnt what pvp is about, it should be skill based and know how the pvp game Mechanics work. I mean lets face it the people that raid hours upon hours a week to acquire there gear just are not pvpers. The stat separation proves that. if they cared about pvp at all they would be out there regardless, but they are not, so stop complaining. Gear separation is the best thing they did for pvp on this server. It makes the gear balance somewhat even and the majority of the great pvpers still on this server are skill based not gear based.

I agree. The only issue is that ever since the seperation of stats, its obvious and undeniable that PvP is based on gear

not  the player. People hate on t2 saying that it was too tough on new players. The way PvP is gear based now is even

worse for new players than t2 pvp ever was. There is no entrance into pvp anymore. T2 and T3 is disabled pretty much

and so when a new player gets to t4 and higher after doing nothing but PvE they are done for. Bring level locking back

to all levels and remove city restrictions from zones OUTSIDE the cities (Darklight Wood, Timurous Deep, Frostfang Sea,

Ruins, Caves, etc.)

As for fixing PvP based on gear idk, maybe bring back specific class pvp gear instead of having EVERYONE with the same

crap.

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Old 10-08-2011, 08:27 AM   #135
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((WHY Do I keep posting twice.))

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Old 10-08-2011, 08:27 AM   #136
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Gear separation needs to be rethought and all PVP damage needs to be lowered via Mitigation.

Instead of Adding PVP Gear, PVP Crit Mitigation/Toughness.

Instead they should add PVP Mitigation to all gear in the game, just double mitigation and call it PVP Mitigation.

All players will have about the same PVP Mitigation as there current mitigation, this brings balance so healers don't become tanks.

Since raiders will have more Critical Mitigation they will have an advantage, so I say all of "everyone" needs to have innate 50% Critical Mitigation when engaged in PVP combat, because you "CAN" have too much critical mitigation, this will greatly balance it out.

With All Armor getting PVP Mitigation and players in the now "no shard" Rygorr with no adornments getting 180% Critical Mitigation PVP Will be balanced with PVE stats.

Green Text is PVP Mitigation.

Lets say a Wizard has 4500 Mitigation, with PVP Mitigation he will also have another 4500 PvP Mitigation that stacks with it, but is another stat so both stats lower the same amount of damage, this way chain will take less damage then cloth, plate will take less damage then chain, leather will take more damage then chain but less then plate, ect ect. (In PvP before the problem was we all had around the same mitigation, this way it won't be like that.)

Having PVP Mitigation on top of regular mitigation would greatly lower the damage back to what it was before.

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Old 10-08-2011, 09:15 AM   #137
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@ Talathion -

I don't play on a PvP server and even I can tell that you don't really seem to understand how PvP combat works right now.  Your ideas for the most part just seem misguided at best - from what i've seen there are only 1 or 2 classes that have overpowered damage compared to the others.

Just admit your only real agenda is to get red and gold appearance armour for very little time investment and we can all move on.

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Old 10-08-2011, 10:16 AM   #138
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[email protected] wrote:

@ Talathion -

I don't play on a PvP server and even I can tell that you don't really seem to understand how PvP combat works right now.  Your ideas for the most part just seem misguided at best - from what i've seen there are only 1 or 2 classes that have overpowered damage compared to the others.

Just admit your only real agenda is to get red and gold appearance armour for very little time investment and we can all move on.

HERESY!

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Old 10-08-2011, 03:56 PM   #139
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1. Opponents are not locked in combat when hit in most cases.once that is fixed the leapers/flying mounts should be less trouble, see how it affects PvP before doing more changes. Step by step.

either that or real air combat but then we'd be back at square 1, shooting people on the ground from the sky without those on the ground being able to defend themselves properly, ranged classes would be at an advantage again and melee classes would only have the moment of surprise, which would almost never happen since everyone would be flying around. Except if all melee CAs would be ranged CAs while on a flying mount.1a. Address the flying mount exploit that apparently isn't an exploit according to one of your GMs, however you changed the game that we couldn't attack while flying, it kindof doesn't make sense.

Flying mounts and leapers are convenient for PvE questing. PvPwise they aren't fun.

2. Get rid of WFs and BGs or add PvP hotspots, this way we would see more than just 3 overland zones./pvp_hotspotThe current PvP hotspots are:10-39 Zone A40-79 Zone B80-90 Zone Ceither double fame, faction, tokens in those hotspots.If a quest goal should be added or not... not sure. The WoW:BC approach wasn't too good, DAOC's frontiers with capturing castles and claiming them for your guild was ok, however NPC guards were a bad idea. There's your chance to have something in EQ2 no other game has.

More than 20 words, but yeah

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Old 10-08-2011, 04:14 PM   #140
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Rothgar wrote:

What are your current concerns with the state of PvP in EQ2?

Separation of PvP/PvE stats?

Do not seperate stats at all. All you would have to do is set up a conversion program to set stats for the pvp tab on gear. Raid gear should be better then pvp gear. You can currently get pvp gear solo. Someone who runs around with a group of people killing questers every day should not even be compared to someone who spends months working with 23 other people to down raid mobs. There should be a mix of effects and procs that are effective throughout pvp merchants and raids. The people who have the best gear for pvp should be the people who play the game the most and have the skill to work with others to achieve access to the gear. Complete separation of raid and pvp is ruining pvp right now. All you have is 100 people pvping who use gear from TSO and SF with no real significant differance besides power in numbers. Currently on pvp server with the no master loss after betrayal you just have 50 people betraying and tons of followers who just want gear off the zerg. Thats fine. They can do that. Dont keep seprating pvp and raids. Use the Pvp tab to adjust stats so it goes along with pvp. The hardest mob in the game should drop better items that are better then what people can solo. Having the OPTION to pvp and get gear without doing pvp is an OPTION not a requirement. This is still an MMO where you have to play with other people to achieve feats and progress.

PvP Mechanics?

Off the top, how any port spell(Warlock, brawler, Crusader, Assassin) if used in water ports you to the bottom when you use it. I think its a bug but it needs to take into consideration the Z aspect of positioning.Warfronts?

Right now i see tons of people where when then number of pvp on the other side is just too overwhelming they run off into a corner of the zone and go afk till it ends. Also the people with the most numbers dont even kill the towers. They just want to pvp and for people to show up. I really dont know the solution to this problem but it doesn't seem to be achieving the goal developers hoped it would.

Battlegrounds?

Terrible matchmaking. People only want to play the big matches. Frozen tundra mostly, so they dont have to do anything. People really just use bg's to gear up for pvp and to get pvp adorns. BG's have died. Sure there was a faction grind that noone liked but there was no cool pvp jewelry or effects. No real Progression besides gear at the different levels of faction.

Flying Mounts?

Everyone has worked some way or another to get around this tool people are using as pvp immunity to travel through a zone to avoid everyone. Again i dont know exactly how to solve this problem but its being miss-used despite how excited i was for this feature in the PvE aspect. I dont want it taken away because i also PvE a lot and this tool was well wortht he wait over 6 years and 90 levels. For people to get this and just sit flying waiting on their other flying crue to show up and try to gank you or laugh because they think you cant figure out a way around it to still kill them makes you want to do it to them. Any agressive dog would jump a fense in a heart beat if you are standing on the other side taunting it.

Population?

Population has went down severely. You have some creating alts and gearing them up for pvp sure. Most of the active people around still trying to clear the intense raiding content dont want to pvp. They spend most of their time trying to raid. Since that gear is useless, the time they do have to log in when not raiding they just decide not to log in. You would create a higher population of pvp'ers if you allowed raid gear with the pvp tab.Something else?

Feel free to prioritize them in a list such as the one above.

1. Using PVE gear in PVP. Using the pvp tab to adjust stats.

2.Warfronts. I know you want to come up with an objective but something else needs to be added in to add to the incentive of wanting to play and achieve. The whole faction / writ system was fun for a little while but its not being used properly.

3. Mechanics. Try to turn some of the less useful PvE abilities into rare abilities. Fighters are pretty well balanced with each class either being able to taunt lock or remove target/ solo. Scouts are bland. Everyone plays one to get track. What if you just gave everyone a radar type option on their minimap. Would take away the want for everyone to play only scout so they wont get ganked. They will play things like healers and Mages. If that is too much you get the idea of solving some of the trends that people stick to. OP classes like assassins who kill people in a few seconds or brawlers who can solo anyone really dont need help at all. However some classes need a boost in solo pvp. Mages and Healers in group pvp are just unstoppable. You cant kill them because you cant target them. You cant dps them because they are aoe immune. You cant cc them because they are immune due to TSO and SF items. I'm not saying nurf the items but the people who are complaing are the ones who cant solo. They are required to Group to be op. I think everyone just wants to Solo.

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Old 10-08-2011, 11:42 PM   #141
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1. Remove PvP all gear: One set of gear please.

2. Revert to old fame system: The old title system told you one thing, How hard it will be to catch and kill that player.

3. Reduce number of instances: Remember being halfway down in SoS and fighting off a group?

4. No warfields, BG's, ect.

5. No tokens, writs, ect.

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Old 10-09-2011, 09:42 AM   #142
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Raid Gear or PvE Gear shoud not be the best gear for PvP......

Yet some of you are asking for exactly that and tbh I really dont get it at all.  From what I remember when I started playing around ROK launch.  The only people that really stood a chance at lv 80 ( the cap at the time ) PvP was exile.  This was due to the fact that they could use all class's to raid and had the best gear ( yes some faction guilds eventualy got some gear and were working threw VP but faction players were way behind at that point )  Clearing VP and killing Avatars gave them a huge advantage ( hmm gear based PvP imagin that ) Some of us asked for PvP gear real PvP gear and they gave it to us.  That and the ability to use all class's on either side.  After some time getting up our tokens PvP between the factions became more balanced.  At the time is seemed like there were more Qey at cap than FP.  But many of us that did not raid were finaly able to put up a good fight and win some too.  The PvP gear balanced things out as far as PvP goes that is.  To me and some others this was the best time for PvP.  We could log in play and PvP for a few hours a night and be competitive.  There was no need for T4 raid gear that takes weeks and months to get to be competitive you could go out fight other players and get your gear. This is how it should be.  Yes it should take some time to get and no I dont want my PvP gear to be just as good as T4 raid gear in PvE.  I also do not want that same T4 raid gear to be better in PvP than my PvP gear.  You want to kill chokidi faster get T4 raid gear want to kill other players faster get PvP gear its that simple.  however both sets of gear should not leave you basicly naked when in the other environment either.

PvP Gear should be equal to at lv Heroic or T1 raid gear in PvE

T4 raid gear should be equal to at lv MC PvP gear ( yes they should make MC PvP gear for each Tier imo with it being equal to the previous tier Leg or fable in PvE ie lv 80 MC PvP gear would be equal to lv 68-70 Leg or Fable gear for PvE purposes )

This way those of us that want to PvP 90% of the time but still run heroic zones and overland quests 10% can if we want and Raiders that want to sit in instances 90% of the time and PvP 10% of thier time can come out and still put up a good fight.  Raiders get what they want the ability to run scripted mobs and have the best PvE gear they can get and those of us that PvP can have what we want the ability to fight each other and have the best gear for PvP supporting both play styles.

If the gear seperation must be absolute than make it absolute.  If you are in PvP gear hit a mob than all stats goto zero and you may as well be hitting an Epic x4 while naked.  If you are in PvE gear and are enguaged in PvP then all stats goto zero and you may as well be hitting the same Epic x4 naked cause you are going to lose.  This approach however will make more people leave the server as you will just have more people end up in instances or avoiding PvP all togather much like right after DoV launch when SF PvP gear could not stand up to the DPS out put of PvE geared toons only it will be the other way around.

If you take nothing else away from this post take this

PvP Gear and PvE gear need to over lap but PvE gear should be the best for PvE and PvP gear should be the best for PvP not some of each to be the best at one or the other.

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Old 10-09-2011, 12:17 PM   #143
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Give the best PvP Gear Available the same stats as EMx4 Raid Gear with a red slot, and as a bonus add a Blue Slot and set bonus. (wouldn't be as good as HM Raid gear, but it would be a little of alot closer then EM Raid gear.)

Remove PVP/PVE Gear Separation.

Lower Overall Damage from PvP Combat Via a New Mitigation system that takes into account what kind of armor the player is wearing. (A leather wearer takes more damage then a plate wearer in PVP, Ect.)

Remove All forms of Permament Immunity in PvP. [This includes Strikethrough Immunity] (except Temporary buffs.)

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Old 10-09-2011, 01:21 PM   #144
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Man you PvE guys... get over it already. PvP gear separation was the best thing they've done to balancing PvP.  PvP combat is actually more balanced now then it's ever been.  Even with OP Autoattack, PvP combat is actually very well balanced for group PvP... this game is not designed for 1v1's, so get over that as well.

SoE is a proven failure for scaling PvE gear for PvP combat.  Please, for the love of god... do not ask them to revert to broken PvE geared PvP.   I repeat, SoE CANNOT scale new gear for PvP fast enough or at all... it just doesn't happen and you are delusional if you think SoE can suddenly change and focus on PvP adjustments.

Look at it this way... think of how often PvP updates/fixes/gear are actually released..... now compare that with the amount of PvE gear they push out that is over the top and broken in PvP.  There is no way in this games current state SoE can keep up with fixing new gear for PvP.  99% of the time, PvP broken gear stays broken... forever.  Now new gear comes out or is discovered, yet PvP combat stays balanced.

Good PvP'ers are still Good PvP'ers...  They have access to the same gear the entire server has access to, yet they are superior in PvP.  Why?  Cause PvP with gear separation is skill based an not gear based cause someone has no life and raids for 40 hours a week, zones out to PvP once a week and owns people cause of gear they obtained NOT PvP'ing.

Move on and actually PvP if you want PvP gear.  It doesn't take long at all to gear out a PvP toon.. so you can continue to PvE all you want.  I don't PvE very much at all do to this change, but I'm thankful for that.  I can spend my time PvP'ing and not falling asleep in a PvE zone.

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Old 10-09-2011, 03:47 PM   #145
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[email protected] wrote:

Man you PvE guys... get over it already. PvP gear separation was the best thing they've done to balancing PvP.  PvP combat is actually more balanced now then it's ever been.  Even with OP Autoattack, PvP combat is actually very well balanced for group PvP... this game is not designed for 1v1's, so get over that as well.

SoE is a proven failure for scaling PvE gear for PvP combat.  Please, for the love of god... do not ask them to revert to broken PvE geared PvP.   I repeat, SoE CANNOT scale new gear for PvP fast enough or at all... it just doesn't happen and you are delusional if you think SoE can suddenly change and focus on PvP adjustments.

Look at it this way... think of how often PvP updates/fixes/gear are actually released..... now compare that with the amount of PvE gear they push out that is over the top and broken in PvP.  There is no way in this games current state SoE can keep up with fixing new gear for PvP.  99% of the time, PvP broken gear stays broken... forever.  Now new gear comes out or is discovered, yet PvP combat stays balanced.

Good PvP'ers are still Good PvP'ers...  They have access to the same gear the entire server has access to, yet they are superior in PvP.  Why?  Cause PvP with gear separation is skill based an not gear based cause someone has no life and raids for 40 hours a week, zones out to PvP once a week and owns people cause of gear they obtained NOT PvP'ing.

Move on and actually PvP if you want PvP gear.  It doesn't take long at all to gear out a PvP toon.. so you can continue to PvE all you want.  I don't PvE very much at all do to this change, but I'm thankful for that.  I can spend my time PvP'ing and not falling asleep in a PvE zone.

It's to bad your community is split in half and theres less PVP now then ever.

Oh and you must have fun changing gear every second too, thats got to be a blast.

Face it, this game is a "PVE" game, with "PVE" rules.

The day they made up "PVP" Rules was the day real PVP died.

Most people avoid PvP now because its simply not fun anymore, and also since nobody is wearing critical mitigation in the first shot of PVP people can be one shotted, because the "rules" don't switch until you engage, so you can be shot before the PVP rules take place (Being shot by someone with PVE Rules while in PVP armor = LOL).

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Old 10-09-2011, 07:10 PM   #146
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Peak here! Reposting for great justice.

Regarding PVP/PVE stats:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Ok, so after all the tests in game and then after tests with imaginary values with Peak we came down to this as the solution: pvp_stat = pvp_stat + (pvp_stat_max - pvp_stat) * (1 - ((1 - (0.5 / (pvp_stat_max - pvp_stat))) ^ pve_stat)) Basically what we are proposing is, in the function that calculates the sum of all PvP stats for gear, you add a line that will also count all the PvE stats and sum those too in a different sum. Then have a pvp_stat_max as a constant set to the maximum value you want for the said stat in PvP and with the pvp_stat sum, pve_stat sum and that constant you can calculate the final pvp stats using the formula above. This does not require long develoment time. It is a simple fix. PvP gear would still remain superior due to blue adors and toughness, but PvE geared players would not be naked in PvP. The same equation can be used to convert PvP only stats to weaker PvE stats so that people in PvP gear can quest and do some basic PvE tasks.

Basically:

- Universal Crit Mit again.

- Universal Potency, Crit Bonus, Multi Attack, and Spell Double Attack again.

And to understand the equation: pvp_stat is your current value for whichever stat we're calculating. If you have 30 potency, then pvp_stat is 30. The pvp_stat_max is your current maximum obtainable value for the stat wearing JUST pvp gear. This equates to (currently) around 70 potency, which is what we used in these calculations. pve_stat is your current value for the pve version of that stat. We used 200 potency in this case.

So, to plug those values in: 30+(70-30)*(1-((1-(0.5/(70-30)))^200)) = 66 potency.So with 200 potency, and PVP gear giving you 30 potency, you would have a total of 66 PVP potency.

You can also use it to calculate PVP -> PVE values, if we're all for equality.

What it comes down to, is this: Using this setup and these calculations, PVP gear will be the best gear for PVP. PVE gear will still work well for PVP, but if we keep Toughness on PVP gear only with our universal crit mit, it means that PVP gear will -always- be the best for PVP. Combine that with blue adorns only working with PVP, and red adorns only working in PVE, and you have your separation - yet still keeping it fair to everyone and not ruining someones character because they aren't equipping PVP gear at the time.

Honestly, it works out well. I can't say I know a ton about how EQ2 is set up from a programming standpoint, but I do have some programming experience, so I figure you could add this in at the same place you're calculating our base crit mit using our main stat.

We haven't tested PVP -> PVE values using this equation, so it might need a different one or some tweaks. But doesn't that sound better?

You won't be the best in PVP wearing PVE gear, and in fact you need thousands of potency to even cap out at the 70 potency cap we put in place for this example. This goes for every stat we mentioned.

Thoughts? Hopefully this explanation helps a little.

The PVP -> PVE equation needs some work, but it's still doable. Easily.

One concern we have is with universal crit mit. We'll end up with 200%+ in most cases. Even the PVP gear we have on test will end you up with that much. So what do we do? Up Crit Bonus on PVP gear? Scale down Crit Mit (a PVP Crit Mit stat using the same equation?)? Or do we drop crit mit from PVP combat all together?

I'm partial towards removing PVP Crit Mit all together and not having it work in PVP. We still get closer to the equality we desire between PVP and PVE gear, and we don't have to super inflate crit bonus in PVP. Again, we're looking at like 60-70% crit bonus in PVP, which I don't think will be so bad - especially if you work on Toughness so it will compensate for the lack of crit mit.

The latter solution also solves the heals not being effected by Crit Mit. The other solution to that was removing critical chance for heals. But again, that's just another issue.

-

Edit: Another separate issue is that the PVP gear has no crit chance. If we're forced to wear it, crit chance will drop down. Again, not a huge issue, but it kind of makes crit bonus pointless (which it already is if you take into account the insane crit mit).

[email protected] wrote:

Like I said, I'm not sure how complex it might be - but I still think it could be tagged in just the same way they calculate the base crit mit when looking at your main stat.

Talking to Dorsan about it more, I think we agree that the best solution to the crit mit issue is to drop it from PVP completely. Give the PVP gear a total of about 100% crit mit. This should suffice for DOV contested content if you're running around in PVP gear. Work on the Toughness equations so that we can compensate a bit for the loss of crit mit. It's a win-win situation.

PVPers won't be able to get 250%+ crit mit without raiding, and PVErs won't be stupid overpowered because of their gear.

I wanted to clarify something from my original explanation of Dorsan's idea.

We would still be keeping the following:

- PVP Potency - PVP Crit Bonus - PVP Multi Attack - PVP Spell Double Attack

They would still only work in PVP, and the other values would not work. And the current values as provided with the PVP gear are excellent. Again, you end up with around 70% of each (excluding Spell Double, I'm not sure the value on that).

What we would change is normal Potency/CB/MA/SDA. It would still work, by calculating out the PVP value based on the information in the equation. This would then pad on to your PVP stat. It would also work the opposite way, calculating your PVP stats into their PVE counterparts using a similiar equation (yet to be completed).

Sound good? Thought so.

QFE

Forgot this part:

The PVE equation Dorsan figured out:

pve_stat + (pve_stat_max - pve_stat) * (1 - ((1 - (balance / (pve_stat_max - pve_stat))) ^ pvp_stat))

This can be used to convert PVP stats into PVE stats.

An example: I'm using a toon with 30 PVE Potency and 75 PVP Potency. The maximum value SOE decided we could convert to is 150 PVE Potency. We use a balance of 2 to even things out, because otherwise the equation just doesn't work right.

This gives us: 30+(150-30)*(1-((1-(2/(150-30)))^75))

And plugging that in to Google:

30 + ((150 - 30) * (1 - ((1 - (2 / (150 - 30)))^75))) = 115.979684

You get 116 PVE Potency, after converting your PVP Potency into PVE Potency and adding your base PVE Potency (we used 30, in this case). Sounds fair to me, enough to get through PQs and basic heroic zones.

Crit Mit will still be necessary on PVP gear, but we can still (and should) drop the stat from working in PVP at all.

[email protected] wrote:

Ok, so I finally came up with a way to explain the point I am trying to get across. I do agree that PvP gear should be the best choice for PvP and PvE gear should be best choice for PvE. However, entirely cutting of the 2 types of gear on Nagafen is bad because we are in a mixed environment, not in a PvP only or PvE only one. Well unless we go to PvP on grey zones. So this is what the 2 types of gear should acomplish: PvP gear - superior defense and attack in PvP. Weak defense and attack in PvE. Must have PvE crit mit because the overland and contested dungeon content requires it, so if you want to actively PvP in DoV zones you need basic survivability. It needs PvE stats similar to PQ gear. Instanced gear would be superior and you wouldn't be able to use the PvP gear for raids. The equation for converting PvP stats to PvE which wouldn't allow them to become too powerful in PvE is the one Peak and I posted several times. Since that equation is a non-linear that is approaching but never reaching the cap value, better PvP gear will give better PvE results but even with 200000 PvP potency you would never reach the actual cap. (You would be very close to the cap with ~100 PvP potency) PvE gear - weak defense but on pair attack in PvP. Superior defense and attack in PvE. Must have some basic PvP stats as well - with the exception of toughness, but reduced in a non-linear fashion in order to have gear progression. A simple cap wouldn't work because then PQ gear and raid gear would be 100% the same in PvP. The equation we provided would take care of this too since even with 200000 PvE potency you wouldn't reach the PvP potency cap. However with ~200 PvE potency you would be near the cap and further gains would be minimal. Can anyone explain what are the arguments against this?

edit:

Since I am aware that most people can't understand math well, I ran a few numbers so that you can see what the proposed equation would produce with certain cap and balance values. These values could be then adjusted by SoE to match the realistic values for the PvP/PvE gear. The numbers I've provided are close to values that are on current gear. The interesting thing about this is that if at some point PvP or PvE gear gets upgraded they will not become OP in the other area. Only when both gear sets are upgrade the cap and balance values can be changed and then they become rebalanced. But if you keep the current PvP gear forever and just upgrade raid gear, it would never become OP.So here are some test numbers (some realistic, and I added a test scenario with 1 million PvP and 1 million PvE potency just to show you that it is impossible to imbalance the equation whatever new gear comes out). The sample is for converting PvP potency into PvE and vice versa. The same equation can be used for crit bonus, multi attack and spell multiattack too -- with different cap and balance values.

note: the equation for the conersion is the one in Peak's post above.

PvP -> PvE conversion: pve_potency_max = 150, balance = 2with PvP gear on0% PvP potency => 0% PvE potency25% PvP potency => 42.8% PvE potency50% PvP potency => 73.3% PvE potency75% PvP potency => 95.2% PvE potency100% PvP potency => 110.8% PvE potency1000000% PvP potency => 150% PvE potencyPvE -> PvP conversion: pvp_potency_max = 75, balance = 0.5with PvE gear on0% PvE potency => 0% PvP potency50% PvE potency => 21.3% PvP potency100% PvE potency => 36.6% PvP potency150% PvE potency => 47.5% PvP potency200% PvE potency => 55.3% PvP potency1000000% PvE potency => 75% PvP potencywith mixed gear, conversion to PvP potency: pvp_potency_max = 75, balance = 0.50% PvP potency + 200% PvE potency => 55.3% PvP potency25% PvP potency + 150% PvE potency => 63.9% PvP potency50% PvP potency + 100% PvE potency => 71.7% PvP potency75% PvP potency + 50% PvE potency => 75% PvP potency100% PvP potency + 0% Pve potency => 100% PvP potencywith mixed gear, conversion to PvE potency: pve_potency_max = 150, balance = 20% PvP potency + 200% PvE potency => 200% PvE potency25% PvP potency + 150% PvE potency => 150% PvE potency50% PvP potency + 100% PvE potency => 143.5% PvE potency75% PvP potency + 50% PvE potency => 128% PvE potency100% PvP potency + 0% PvE potency => 110.8% PvE potencyHope this made the proposal clear for everyone.

There is another (independent proposal) that I think is also essential to balance heals/dps in PvP:

PROPOSAL no2.:

 - remove PvP crit mit and add PvE crit mit (equivalent to PQ gear values) to PvP gear because of the mixed environnment

 - increase toughness to the original 40% cap to balance out the excess DPS that results from removal of crit mit

      * toughness can then be adjusted according to the PvP combat tests

 - unnerf the Sta/Int/Agi/Wis/Str stats on the new PvP gear to increase health pool for everyone. Larger health pool is essential for DPS/heals balance because it allows for higher DPS without getting one shot. If you try to balance too high DPS with adding damage reduction then you are unbalancing heals again.

Well that is about it...

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Old 10-09-2011, 07:52 PM   #147
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 Seperation of pve and pvp geared killed open world on our sever. PVE and PVP..

PQ's were huge pvp area, and at the same time PVE.  STill red adorns from it people want just cant do it with pve/pvp seperation.  Very easy for a few players to wipe an x4 trying to do pq's. Becuse thier gear is useless to fight back with.  Cant do pq's with the pvp gear or ur dead to the mobs..   THis was a horrible idea for an open world sever.. Works fine in bgs . Group pvp has been more balanced then ever except for some fighters way over tuanting. 

You already had pvp tab in place for all gear.. ALL gear should of just been balanced for pvp.   THose crying about raiders will have advantage...  When raid gear and pvp gear worked together at first.. The pvp gear = the raid gear.  

Alot of pve players that used to dable in pvp now and then dont even bother becuse they cant use the gear to run thier instances.. I am not talkin abot hardcore raiders.. I am talkng about casual pve players..  A real high % of hard core raiders had full set of pvp gear like 2 weeks after new stuff was released.  PVP gear is not hard to get dont kid urself.. 

All pvp and pve seperation did was help the 20-30 people that just log in to pvp.   It hurt the casual pve/pvp player the most.

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Old 10-09-2011, 07:58 PM   #148
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  1. Fix and expand battlegrounds.
  2. Continue to refine and expand upon PvP/PvE stat separation.
  3. Release new BG gear - and do it every season. 
  4. Utilize toughness on class specific BG sets to balance classes in bgs.
  5. Turn PvP servers blue or merge them with a low population blue server (give free xfer tokens).

People need to get real -- this game has not been advertised for several years, the population has steadily dropped and it is dying -- EQNext is the new focus.  In the larger scheme of things, the objective of SoE is to keep the game profitable with the least amount of work.  PvP servers/rulesets requires too much investment to make the small subscribers that want PvP exclusively happy and, as you can tell, they never are anyway.  They should keep going in the direction they've been going with PvE and just let BGs satisfy those that it will for PvP.

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Old 10-09-2011, 08:33 PM   #149
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Stat Separation is what killed PvP in the first place.

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Old 10-09-2011, 08:41 PM   #150
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Stat Separation is what killed PvP in the first place.

Nope.

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