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Old 09-16-2011, 10:34 PM   #91
tfetterman

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Yeah, Shard of Hate type itemization for Bards would be awesome!

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Old 09-17-2011, 02:16 AM   #92
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Ok just read a lot of these...first off why you trollin buffrat? :p You know you play a troub very occasionally and you have a good understanding of the maths behind it, the actual experience is much different playing one constantly.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I play both a dirge and troub. My point to Raxxyl's/Dance of Blades is because troubs have always had a higher agi self buff because of the lack of AGI on their group buff. Now that they're getting AGI on their group buff there's no reason their self buff shouldn't match dirges /shrug

Also, I would be for giving troubs +15% doublecast chance on their tso endline. Maybe even 20%. Adding any buffs to spell auto attack is dumb because the dps is so terrible, it wouldn't be noticed anyway.

I think Jcap immunity should be 1 minute instead of 2 minutes/nothing.

You ended well, but I doubt the extra agi is going to make that huge of a difference even with stats the way they are now.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Dirges buff themselves, yes. Troubs buff their group infinitely more than dirges do, imo.

You guys spend too much time directly comparing troub personal dps vs dirge personal dps. In short these changes will make troubs a lot better than dirges for raids, but I know you guys won't complain. You obviously couldn't handle being pretty balanced to dirges (boo hoo you did 40-50k less dps than dirges but made up for it by buffing other people with more than 40-50k worth of buffs), and need to be the best at personal dps, best at buffing, and best at debuffing.

I wouldn't say this. Consider how group make ups are? You as a dirge are pretty much going to be gauranteed the same number of classes that directly benefit from your dps and melee increasing buffs (that number being 3). Generally the same as a troub in a mage group. The 10% potency difference between a mage spell and a melee CA is a gap, but I wouldn't call it an overpowered gap. At the very least it's not a gap that benefits the troub in any way. In addition your buff helps yourself (yes I'm counting dirges among the 3 in this group) In addition, you generally have a coercer and sometimes a shaman in there. I know they can't change classes based on min/max of a high end guild, but troubadors aren't getting dps mods and the disparity is quite telling. How are we the best at debuffing compared to dirges? Do we get some awesome buff that dirges don't get I should be using more? If you're counting our magic resist debuff, I wouldn't count that as putting us over the top in utility.

Sorry I'm not trying to call you out specifically,  just have to disagree on some of your points

As others have suggested, make lamentations a blue AE, and change the dirge equivalent to a blue AE (or put a damage component on their equivalent of bellow, which is already a blue) This proposed change to overture will just decrease our single target dps, which is most of this expansion. Unless you had a LOT more AE encounters it's not going to be a welcome change.

The Jcap issue has been discussed. A shortened immunity? Sure. Lack of immunity? not so much.

Countersong I've used plenty either to counter initial AE's before mob is debuffed, or for those moments when the named wipes and is standing by the raid casting it's AE. If you're going to shorten the duration, shorten the recast by a fair amount or it will be never be used as anything but the most extreme emergency situations.

The vexing verses change is pretty awesome imo. Some of the named take almost 2 full seconds to cast their AE and a 30% increase in that will be very helpful for that little bit of extra time to joust out (and please if you give us this don't EVER change it to *unless target is epic* because that will just be a big FU to us all)

Breathtaking bellow: Not sure about the point of this change. Literally on raids the only reason I have to cast this spell is to complete HO's or proc PoTM. Unless you're going to create a lot more encounters where there are "heroic" (IE affected by stun, etc) mobs among the summoned adds or something, this one is going to be pointless for anywhere but PvP.

Pretty much all the other changes look promising. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I just know when I'm doing HM kolskeggr, burning all out from the start with temp adorns on and etc. using incinerate with my RO and my VC is hitting for 140k, and I STILL lose to a mystic? Something really needs to change.

*note* I am not in absolute min/max gear atm. I have a lot of crit mit adorns on for HM drunder zones and don't have switch out peices of gear, really. So potentially I could be doing a *bit* more dps. Probably an extra 30-40 MA I'm missing out on from that. Also I'm specced for DD, so yes I know I could have more personal dps.

I do wish to thank the dev team for giving troubadors a look. We've needed it for quite some time. I have led raids and recruited for guilds since this game was released until the end of TSO, and the very reason I MADE a troubador is because they were an asbsolute nightmare to recruit and retain. Anyone who started as a troub and then raided generally didn't last for long, and quite often I had to have guildies make one specifically for the guild. There needs to be some change that makes troubs at least competetive with dirges on the parse (or at least not losing to healers)

Our current utility is fine imo. Every raid guild out there knows they need a troubador, it's just a matter of finding someone who wants to play one and won't get frustrated with being the bottom rung scout.

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Old 09-19-2011, 05:25 AM   #93
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Onoddil wrote:

Tbh, keep changes that are currently on test but: add spell ma to the two items in the STA line as well as melee ma; increase csong duration to 20s and base to 5-7 mins; add potency to potm; add slight combat skills to daeli's and slight casting skills to death's door; add something similar to the new dirge myth proc such as cb/reuse to our myth proc; return overture to its original state and make painful the blue with the increase in damage (mitigated on test, obviously); remove extra agi from raxxyl's and give JC *some* immunity because that's a bit silly imo :p. Either that, or keep the dirge myth proc as it is because nerfing is worse than buffing/fixing, and add max spell damage to ours in a similar vein. Just do the same for each of the two subclasses and it's fine...

EDIT: @Buffrat, if you notice my well thought out post only contains one thing that I'd like to see to buff personal dps... A new myth proc. Our one does 400dps. Everything else is just extra utility that accidentally buffs us (see potency on potm). I even suggested removing something that does not fit with the "theme" of Troubadours. Please don't /rage.

Ono

Ty SOE for working on troubs, me thinks ono suggestions is on the spot , Thats the way to go

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Old 09-19-2011, 05:30 AM   #94
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xdeadumx wrote:

What i have to say might make most troubs angry.

Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. 

As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.

Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.

Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.

plz roll yourself a ranger,

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Old 09-19-2011, 08:24 AM   #95
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Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.

Fundamentally Jcap kind of changes but it's still pretty much hit Jcap every 15 seconds on target X. I think having no immunity on Jcap was meant as an indirect buff to Troub DPS as we can now maintain it on ourselves as well as 2 other targets. Some bonus extra stats along with pretty much permanent 50% reuse on a scout class is especially helpful to troub personal and group dps. More PoTM, more deadly dance, more turnstrike, and if you really wanted to, max out the RO duration AA and you have more CC immunity to use when VC isn't up. This will also mitigate the problem people have with TO being a significant source of DPS when you can be casting stuff like perfect shrill more often and allow us to prioritize more DPS oriented stats over reuse (our heroic AA tree for example would change significantly). All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.

Oh yeah, and still hoping for a class-defining mechanic that will make playing utility more than just hitting Jcap, PoTM, Deadly Dance, VC, and just....generally staying alive. Who knows, maybe the dev's will come up with something super cool to revitalize the bards. SMILEY

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Old 09-19-2011, 08:44 AM   #96
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already some changes are opperational and troubs benefit more from them than dirges:

for every 14-15 haste between 200-300, you get 1 flurry

for every 30 haste between 300-400, you get 1 flurry.

So basically, with illu, troub respec and inq in mage group, you get over 400 haste (i have 420ish in raid), which is around 11-12 more flurry; add CoB to that and you get the picture. It shows on parse nicely, dps gap between dirges and troubs dropped to 10% now.

I just fear that within the process of boosting troubs, the dirges will be left behind, creating another gap between similar classes...

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Old 09-19-2011, 09:00 AM   #97
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Yeah. To be honest I really don't like the nerf to dirges. I was pretty sure sony wouldn't do it considering a lot of the troub threads I read specifically detailed that they did not want the dirge to be nerfed or changed in any way and only for the troub to be altered. At this point, I think it'd be better if dirges kept their mythical - it kept alot of players happy and was a unique mechanic that pretty much defined the dirge. Pretty much win-win for sony and this whole change doesn't really make any sense to me. I don't care if a mythical is overpowered/underpowered, if it's unique I think most people would be satisfied. Why change something that was perfectly fine into a dull increase in stats? While the troub myth is actually pretty good aside from the proc, it's the fact that the proc has become so bland and uninteresting that it annoys me and possibly some of the other troubs out there. I almost think this isn't really about balancing but rather to just fix some things that were meant to be fixed when stat inflation occured. As long as the proc is somewhat unique or interesting, I really don't care what it is.

If troubs do outparse dirges come this update, I don't think I'd be happy that there's a new dead class that people don't want to play. I'm perfectly fine with adding more to group dps rather than personal dps as a troub and I've accepted that as our role. The test update sort of missed the point for me and I wasn't looking for a scaling in dps but rather a more involved utility role.

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Old 09-19-2011, 01:12 PM   #98
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justanotherplaya wrote:

Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.

...All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.

Although this might not be the only reason, it's an important one. With the current imunity, you can make a single macro with all your Jcap targets in it. If you press that macro, it will then cast Jcap on the first person in that list without imunity (or the last person if you queue the macro).

Without imunity, all troubs will have to go back to a single macro for each target, or even going back to having to actually target whoever you want to cast it on. This is anoying to do, and also forces us to remember who our next target is. So please keep some imunity (at least 30 seconds) on it.

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Old 09-19-2011, 01:49 PM   #99
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Are these changes on the Test Copy server?

I am not seeing them at the moment.

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Old 09-19-2011, 02:21 PM   #100
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[email protected] wrote:

justanotherplaya wrote:

Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.

...All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.

Although this might not be the only reason, it's an important one. With the current imunity, you can make a single macro with all your Jcap targets in it. If you press that macro, it will then cast Jcap on the first person in that list without imunity (or the last person if you queue the macro).

Without imunity, all troubs will have to go back to a single macro for each target, or even going back to having to actually target whoever you want to cast it on. This is anoying to do, and also forces us to remember who our next target is. So please keep some imunity (at least 30 seconds) on it.

I use profit.  I was able to edit my quick raid buttons to send a tell to the person to tell them they have j-cap.  To me whether there is immunity or not doesn' matter.  I only give J-Cap to myself just before I run RO, but with no immunity I'm sure my mages will love that.  I also think that if they remove the immunity from J-cap they should also remove the immunity from Gravitas.

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Old 09-19-2011, 02:26 PM   #101
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Comments on current changes...

Looks like I will be putting Countersong back on my hotbar. I perceive it would be useful for preventing a wipe due to an AoE when the mob is almost dead.

The change to the base recast of Thunderous Overture (increased to 10 seconds from 5 seconds) will change timing somewhat. However, Sandra's Deafening Strike being made more useful should offset that Thunderous Overture change.

The cast time on Painful Lamentations will still be painful.

I like no immunity timer on Jester's Cap. It looks like with a little more gear I could keep it on two people constantly (barely).

Suggests for other changes...

Enhance: Arcane Symphony and Enhance: Elemental Concerto and Ballad of Warding are now a bit dated with the latest game mechanics. Add 1% or 2% crit mit per point for Arcane Symphony and Enhance: Elemental Concerto (should affect only the associated damage type) and add 1% crit mit per point for Ballad of Warding. This change could make Elemental Concerto and Arcane Symphony more desirable in some circumstances, without unbalancing pre end-game play. Add a similar effect to the dirge's noxious resist song.

 I am tempted to suggest Enhance: Bria's Inspiring Ballad needs a boost, but I am not so sure. Maybe double check that AA (and associated song) are still where they should be with the latest game mechanics.

The duration on the charm spell, Bria's Entrancing Sonnet, is so short that that spell is only useful as a type of "death save" that usually kills the caster when it expires, due to the caster getting aggro and being one-shotted. At least let this spell work on epic mobs or something, the duration is so short...

Combine the two hits from Ceremonial Blade into a single hit, or increase the damage of the second hit to compensate for when the first hit misses. Another possiblity is letting this attack hit up to, say, 8 times, but let the miss chance increase with each successive hit; keep once one attack misses, all the rest of the attacks miss.

Singing Shot is similar to Ceremonial Blade, but the stifle attached to it sort of makes up for the double hit requirement. Since the stifle does not affect epic targets, maybe let it interrupt an epic target, instead of the stifle.

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Old 09-19-2011, 07:06 PM   #102
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nofish wrote:

xdeadumx wrote:

What i have to say might make most troubs angry.

Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. 

As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.

Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.

Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.

plz roll yourself a ranger,

plz post some suggestions on making troub more fun so that im not getting tells from your guilds begging me to join your raid force due to the lack of troubs playing. 

Seriously, what would make us more fun is to have more to do. Just making minor adjustments to what a few spells do isn't enough to warrent dirges exiling back to troub or people to make troubs. When you do a who all dirge on my server you get 52 results... who all troub.. 17.  is this always accurate, no.  

The simple fact is that troubs have excessive amounts of time on their hands.  I would suggest that we have to perform certain skills in a chain to give group bonuses. But alas you guys just want more dps.

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Old 09-20-2011, 07:47 AM   #103
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xdeadumx wrote:

nofish wrote:

xdeadumx wrote:

What i have to say might make most troubs angry.

Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. 

As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.

Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.

Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.

plz roll yourself a ranger,

plz post some suggestions on making troub more fun so that im not getting tells from your guilds begging me to join your raid force due to the lack of troubs playing. 

Seriously, what would make us more fun is to have more to do. Just making minor adjustments to what a few spells do isn't enough to warrent dirges exiling back to troub or people to make troubs. When you do a who all dirge on my server you get 52 results... who all troub.. 17.  is this always accurate, no.  

The simple fact is that troubs have excessive amounts of time on their hands.  I would suggest that we have to perform certain skills in a chain to give group bonuses. But alas you guys just want more dps.

Don't think "change to range class" make a big difference.Only 2-3 weeks after update (trying something new is fun), Then someone will say "give us more fun, wanna go melee attack".AoE hurts you? learn and joust it. Not all fight does require ranged attack.Lazy to joust? eek...roll a ranger like previous post. Not only troubador needs to joust AoE.Wanna see Ayonic Bow instead of Anyonic Axe? I don't want...

I don't/can't know what is good to exiling back (never betrayed to dirge ).

However some troubs betrayed to dirge to have more DPS and overpowered Myth, so adjust troubador DPS isn't completely wrong.Dirge is still more desirable even after this fix. because their group/single buff doesn't be touched.

At least, "minor adjustments" is enough to enjoy more to play troubador for me.Finally we get PBAoE, Vexing Verses is not useless, Sandra's Deafening Strike give some power, etc.Hope can have more unique abitilies/Effect what can't substitute by adornment or other class abilities./gaze Ayonic Hymn

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Old 09-20-2011, 02:29 PM   #104
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I'm excited to see the majority of these changes even though I swapped mains from Troub to Inq a while back.  Very encouraged to see all of them and some work on the class.

My only comment about the actual changes so far (since most are pointless until there's a chance for me to use them), especially given your clarification that Countersong won't do anything if you cast it after the cast bar shows up, is I fear that Countersong is still too short a duration for its reuse timer.  Mob AoE timers are frequently off by at 5-10 seconds so at best you can guess.

I'm surprised people use Thunderous Overture so often, I try to avoid it because it takes longer to cast for mediocre damage and never seems to show up very high on the parse, so I was actually happy it was the one that changed to a blue.

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Old 09-20-2011, 07:41 PM   #105
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Ok having just tested the changes I can honestly say: I like.  The mind tap mana feed doesn't do much but it does some for the group.  Unfortunatley my testing was done in a duo so not really sure how well Abhorrent verse works.  In general this is a much needed improvement and it was dfinitly fun.  When will this be live?

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Old 09-21-2011, 08:26 PM   #106
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

justanotherplaya wrote:

Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.

...All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.

Although this might not be the only reason, it's an important one. With the current imunity, you can make a single macro with all your Jcap targets in it. If you press that macro, it will then cast Jcap on the first person in that list without imunity (or the last person if you queue the macro).

Without imunity, all troubs will have to go back to a single macro for each target, or even going back to having to actually target whoever you want to cast it on. This is anoying to do, and also forces us to remember who our next target is. So please keep some imunity (at least 30 seconds) on it.

I use profit.  I was able to edit my quick raid buttons to send a tell to the person to tell them they have j-cap.  To me whether there is immunity or not doesn' matter.  I only give J-Cap to myself just before I run RO, but with no immunity I'm sure my mages will love that.  I also think that if they remove the immunity from J-cap they should also remove the immunity from Gravitas.

I think you're not quite getting what it is.. I can make a macro with default that tells a person when they have Jcap. That isn't the issue. The issue is do you want to have 1 button where you can have a standard Jcap rotation? (IE all the dps you generally put Jcap on) or do you want to have 4 or 5 buttons along with people complaining that you never give Jcap to them and only to a select few classes/people?

If you're only casting Jcap on yourself in it's current incarnation you're doing it wrong. You're vasty under-using one of your most powerful spells and reducing your raid and group dps as a whole. Jcap is not a spell to be cast every once in a while. It should be cast on someone EVERY single time it's up

Quote:
The change to the base recast of Thunderous Overture (increased to 10 seconds from 5 seconds) will change timing somewhat. However, Sandra's Deafening Strike being made more useful should offset that Thunderous Overture change.

The cast time on Painful Lamentations will still be painful.

I like no immunity timer on Jester's Cap. It looks like with a little more gear I could keep it on two people constantly (barely)

I think the complaint about changes to thunderous was from raiders mostly. There are many mobs where you are standing still a lot (like guy who drops cloak in throne) or where you're just staying out ranged all the time (like hard mode sullon's trash, where you have 4 mobs each casting AE's that can kill you, so there is no jousting in and out unless you're AE immune when you do) in cases such as these, and with ranged single target dps in general, an improvement to a melee quick strike is not going to come even CLOSE to making up for the loss of this important ranged dps spell. And Thunderous is very important for these ranged fights considering you have thunderous, shrill, lamentations, and then your bow attack (also of course evasive maneuvers) but thunderous is on the quickest recast, and is also a very handy range finder as 15 meters is pretty standard range for being able to survive AE's.

Still think lamentations should be the blue.

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Old 09-22-2011, 12:00 AM   #107
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Rocksthemic wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

justanotherplaya wrote:

Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.

...All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.

Although this might not be the only reason, it's an important one. With the current imunity, you can make a single macro with all your Jcap targets in it. If you press that macro, it will then cast Jcap on the first person in that list without imunity (or the last person if you queue the macro).

Without imunity, all troubs will have to go back to a single macro for each target, or even going back to having to actually target whoever you want to cast it on. This is anoying to do, and also forces us to remember who our next target is. So please keep some imunity (at least 30 seconds) on it.

I use profit.  I was able to edit my quick raid buttons to send a tell to the person to tell them they have j-cap.  To me whether there is immunity or not doesn' matter.  I only give J-Cap to myself just before I run RO, but with no immunity I'm sure my mages will love that.  I also think that if they remove the immunity from J-cap they should also remove the immunity from Gravitas.

I think you're not quite getting what it is.. I can make a macro with default that tells a person when they have Jcap. That isn't the issue. The issue is do you want to have 1 button where you can have a standard Jcap rotation? (IE all the dps you generally put Jcap on) or do you want to have 4 or 5 buttons along with people complaining that you never give Jcap to them and only to a select few classes/people?

If you're only casting Jcap on yourself in it's current incarnation you're doing it wrong. You're vasty under-using one of your most powerful spells and reducing your raid and group dps as a whole. Jcap is not a spell to be cast every once in a while. It should be cast on someone EVERY single time it's up

Quote:
The change to the base recast of Thunderous Overture (increased to 10 seconds from 5 seconds) will change timing somewhat. However, Sandra's Deafening Strike being made more useful should offset that Thunderous Overture change.

The cast time on Painful Lamentations will still be painful.

I like no immunity timer on Jester's Cap. It looks like with a little more gear I could keep it on two people constantly (barely)

I think the complaint about changes to thunderous was from raiders mostly. There are many mobs where you are standing still a lot (like guy who drops cloak in throne) or where you're just staying out ranged all the time (like hard mode sullon's trash, where you have 4 mobs each casting AE's that can kill you, so there is no jousting in and out unless you're AE immune when you do) in cases such as these, and with ranged single target dps in general, an improvement to a melee quick strike is not going to come even CLOSE to making up for the loss of this important ranged dps spell. And Thunderous is very important for these ranged fights considering you have thunderous, shrill, lamentations, and then your bow attack (also of course evasive maneuvers) but thunderous is on the quickest recast, and is also a very handy range finder as 15 meters is pretty standard range for being able to survive AE's.

Still think lamentations should be the blue.

Yeah I admit I worded that wrong... what I meant was when I'm running RO that is the only time I cast it on myself, all other times it is on at least one of the other members of my group. Two if I'm able stay to stay on top of it.  I actually find trying to keep the rotation without breaking it fun.  With no immunity I can keep it on the mages and possibly cast it on the healers when fit hits the shan.

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Old 09-22-2011, 03:23 AM   #108
Rocksthemic

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Yeah I actually have a few buttons for jesters cap on my hotbars. I have one button with all the guild dps on it, with the brigand first cause more dispatch = more awesome. Then a list of dps going from highest to lowest dps (make your dps fight to be on the top spot on your Jcap macro and see if they don't improve!) basically you have Jcap in a slot, right click the make macro, and fill it up with spell/ability of jesters cap, then put each dps name in there, and easy as that you have one button macro that will rotate through all of your best dps with one button, and don't even have to change targets.

*yes I'm aware many of you know how to do this already, but never know so just explaining it*

Also have two buttons dedicated to the MT healers, one for cleric one for shaman. I have one that is just to target myself, so I don't ever have to change targets to keep myself with Jcap. And I have one that is /usabilityonrt macro (pretty sure that's how it goes, not in game atm to check) that will jesters cap the last person who sent me a tell so I can just hit that if someone sends tell asking for Jcap.

And then finally I have one that is just a regular Jcap button, that will give Jcap to my current target and send them a tell letting them know they have it.

So that is 6 total buttons for Jcap, but barring the exception of a couple tanks and healers outside of MT group, it will pretty much cover anyone in raid. Makes it handy. The real beef is that if you take away immunity completely, we'll either be forced to have 10 Jcap macro buttons, each dedicated to a single target.

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Old 09-22-2011, 11:26 PM   #109
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make troub Charm  useful.. e.g. last until cancelled.

Simple.

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Old 09-25-2011, 02:50 AM   #110
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latesttoon wrote:

make troub Charm  useful.. e.g. last until cancelled.

Simple.

That is one of the changes that might be useful for PvP and to solo better I guess, but for most content it would be pretty much useless. It in no way would solve the disparity between troubadors and dirges in respect to dps and what they bring to a group. Coercers can charm quite well, but it hasn't been since TSO that I've actually heard "lets get a coercer for this group so they can charm something"

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Old 09-25-2011, 04:07 AM   #111
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Xelgad wrote:

  • Thunderous Overture is now a PBAoE that affects up to 8 targets.  The reuse has been increased to 10 seconds.

Played several hours on test, and got issues about reuse/range.Thunderous Overture is shortest single damage spell for troubador.And used very often for single target.In some situations, Won't be able to use like now. 5 seconds make a big difference...Maybe this is why adjusted Perfect Shrill/Lamentations damage. But not enough to compensate.(Tap Essence is changed to Encounter Spell and reuced damage too)

So I would like to have both, single damage version and PBAoE version.Not change to PBAoE, just add PBAoE version.

Or replace Enhance: Thunderous Overture with PBAoE version as an alternative.(Ofcourse, should have +10% damage and adjusted casting time without AA)Those are sharing reuse timer. but single damage ver has 5sec recast, PBAoE ver has 10sec recast.

Or add new PBAoE spell line(maybe most realistic).I oppose to change Lamentations to PBAoE.

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Old 09-26-2011, 05:04 AM   #112
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After a generous amount of training dummies, I'm beginning to see that the changes really haven't done anything to increase damage on single target mobs.  If anything it has dropped somewhat.  I think the biggest effect was the significant drop in the Tap Essence damage.  Leave the damage alone or at least leave it as a single target spell but distribute power to the group.  I maxed out the AA's from the SF tree to see if it would help on the damage but it was hardly a noticable increase.

Further, I'm really having a hard time being able to measure the true increase on mutiple mob encounters since they only have heroic group dummies.  There needs to be significantly increased health on the multiple encounter in order to get a true feeling for what can be done.  Can you add maybe a X2 group encounter to the selection of training dummies?

Two things would significantly help as well.  First, change the WIS redcution on Chaos Anthem to STA, STR, or AGI.  I didn't include INT since there is an AA option to include that attriube.  Most mobs are not healers and since secondary attributes have been eliminated this aspect of the spell has become quite worthless.  Second, can you reduce the casting speed on Painful Lamentations.  Yes, you increased the damage, but a 1.25 second minimum casting speed really interferes with melee timing and messes up the rotation.  I think making it around .75 seconds would be more appropriate.

Finally, can you convert the mythical proc to something more useful.  Now that we have been changed to become more "magelike", I would not be opposed to Spell Double Cast any longer.  Especially since the Dirge proc has been nerfed significantly.  My other choices would be Crit Bonus or Potency.  Maybe even a clicky changing spells from single attack to multi attack and back, similar to the Warlock myth.

I just know I was very excited about these changes, but the more I test them, the more I find out they aren't really going to give us the damage we were looking for.  They are pulling away from single mobs and adding to multi-encounter mobs.  It's more of a trade-off than any kind of boost.

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Old 09-27-2011, 03:55 AM   #113
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First of all, anything that won't get used in a raid, I don't care about.  Minimise it, maximise it, lose it or give it to some other class, I don't care.

Secondly, I'm not looking to become an assassin, a ranger or a swashy because unlike them I am not DPS, I am a support class or at least that is the theory.  I want to parse as well as a dirge and I fail to see the problem there.  In addition, the changes that have occurred have gradually devalued the troub and not just our own personal DPS.

There seems to be discussion about Jester's Cap and its immunity.  Great!  But lets put some thought into making it something that people want.

Countersong... 12 seconds... really?  And the re-use timer remains to keep this spell amongst the other "gimicks" that actually change nothing for my performance or for the raid.  It can sit next to Energising Ballad that is great but no one relies on you for it.

All in all, nothing here is thrilling.  For example, Rejuvenating Celebration will get an upgrade... great.  I have 5 concentration slots and so it still won't get a look in.  As for doing encounter or AOE damage, any change in this direction has limited appeal.  It just means that an ability I once used now gets counted amongst the things I cannot do when the raid leader says "No encounter or AOEs please".  And, in other circumstances without accompanying hate pushing, it will just get me killed.  That's not an upgrade so while changing Tap Essence to trickle a tiny bit of mana to the group is great but making it an encounter spell is not and diminishing its damage when it is hardly note-worthy now sets this as a downgrade.

The are two real problem for troubs.  I don't know if anyone has noticed but mages are no longer the kings of DPS they used to be.  Wizards were once guaranteed to top the parse but now they are strugling against assassins and swashies.  In part, this is due to the fact that much of what caster support offers is now irrelevant.  The wizards don't want UT anymore and the warlock, when we have one, says "I'll take it".  When our raid forms, the main tank fills his group with an assassin to push hate, a dirge and a coercer.  Troubs rarely get a look in on one of these groups and not only are dirges better parsers they also get buffed with a variety of goodies from the many clases that want them in their groups.  The mage groups are now disappointments.  Troubs generally get two or three Blades of Ro from the Wizards each bestowing a few hundred damage... yawn... that is far from impressive.  So add 1K damage to each Blade of Ro.  Now that would get me excited.

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Old 09-29-2011, 12:15 AM   #114
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DJWolf5 wrote:

First of all, anything that won't get used in a raid, I don't care about.  Minimise it, maximise it, lose it or give it to some other class, I don't care.

Secondly, I'm not looking to become an assassin, a ranger or a swashy because unlike them I am not DPS, I am a support class or at least that is the theory.  I want to parse as well as a dirge and I fail to see the problem there.  In addition, the changes that have occurred have gradually devalued the troub and not just our own personal DPS.

There seems to be discussion about Jester's Cap and its immunity.  Great!  But lets put some thought into making it something that people want.

Countersong... 12 seconds... really?  And the re-use timer remains to keep this spell amongst the other "gimicks" that actually change nothing for my performance or for the raid.  It can sit next to Energising Ballad that is great but no one relies on you for it.

All in all, nothing here is thrilling.  For example, Rejuvenating Celebration will get an upgrade... great.  I have 5 concentration slots and so it still won't get a look in.  As for doing encounter or AOE damage, any change in this direction has limited appeal.  It just means that an ability I once used now gets counted amongst the things I cannot do when the raid leader says "No encounter or AOEs please".  And, in other circumstances without accompanying hate pushing, it will just get me killed.  That's not an upgrade so while changing Tap Essence to trickle a tiny bit of mana to the group is great but making it an encounter spell is not and diminishing its damage when it is hardly note-worthy now sets this as a downgrade.

The are two real problem for troubs.  I don't know if anyone has noticed but mages are no longer the kings of DPS they used to be.  Wizards were once guaranteed to top the parse but now they are strugling against assassins and swashies.  In part, this is due to the fact that much of what caster support offers is now irrelevant.  The wizards don't want UT anymore and the warlock, when we have one, says "I'll take it".  When our raid forms, the main tank fills his group with an assassin to push hate, a dirge and a coercer.  Troubs rarely get a look in on one of these groups and not only are dirges better parsers they also get buffed with a variety of goodies from the many clases that want them in their groups.  The mage groups are now disappointments.  Troubs generally get two or three Blades of Ro from the Wizards each bestowing a few hundred damage... yawn... that is far from impressive.  So add 1K damage to each Blade of Ro.  Now that would get me excited.

I think countersong would be abusable if it were made more powerful. Let's say it lasted 30 seconds, you could have 12 troubs in raid and 360 secs of AoE immunity and ignore all sorts of mob strats. Same if it were on a short enough cooldown. Pretty much it's never going to be something that can be used more than once unless the ability itself is toned down more.

Not sure about your groups but with illy + inquis I get 300-400 haste/dps as well as my choice of IA or AI along with some other various things. I think that's pretty decent actually and while you could be getting more groupwide passive buffs overcaping on haste/dps is a huge part of the expected amount of buffs. It could be better, yes, but dirges in a tank group don't necessarily get buffed much more than we do in a mage group. It just that even after all that our dps still blows compared to everyone else as long as other people aren't just bad. :/ Oh yeah, not to mention it's suppppper boring doing nothing essentially on progression fights.

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Old 09-30-2011, 04:47 PM   #115
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DJWolf5 wrote:

First of all, anything that won't get used in a raid, I don't care about.  Minimise it, maximise it, lose it or give it to some other class, I don't care.

Secondly, I'm not looking to become an assassin, a ranger or a swashy because unlike them I am not DPS, I am a support class or at least that is the theory.  I want to parse as well as a dirge and I fail to see the problem there.  In addition, the changes that have occurred have gradually devalued the troub and not just our own personal DPS.

There seems to be discussion about Jester's Cap and its immunity.  Great!  But lets put some thought into making it something that people want.

Countersong... 12 seconds... really?  And the re-use timer remains to keep this spell amongst the other "gimicks" that actually change nothing for my performance or for the raid.  It can sit next to Energising Ballad that is great but no one relies on you for it.

All in all, nothing here is thrilling.  For example, Rejuvenating Celebration will get an upgrade... great.  I have 5 concentration slots and so it still won't get a look in.  As for doing encounter or AOE damage, any change in this direction has limited appeal.  It just means that an ability I once used now gets counted amongst the things I cannot do when the raid leader says "No encounter or AOEs please".  And, in other circumstances without accompanying hate pushing, it will just get me killed.  That's not an upgrade so while changing Tap Essence to trickle a tiny bit of mana to the group is great but making it an encounter spell is not and diminishing its damage when it is hardly note-worthy now sets this as a downgrade.

The are two real problem for troubs.  I don't know if anyone has noticed but mages are no longer the kings of DPS they used to be.  Wizards were once guaranteed to top the parse but now they are strugling against assassins and swashies.  In part, this is due to the fact that much of what caster support offers is now irrelevant.  The wizards don't want UT anymore and the warlock, when we have one, says "I'll take it".  When our raid forms, the main tank fills his group with an assassin to push hate, a dirge and a coercer.  Troubs rarely get a look in on one of these groups and not only are dirges better parsers they also get buffed with a variety of goodies from the many clases that want them in their groups.  The mage groups are now disappointments.  Troubs generally get two or three Blades of Ro from the Wizards each bestowing a few hundred damage... yawn... that is far from impressive.  So add 1K damage to each Blade of Ro.  Now that would get me excited.

I totally agree.  In SF my guild went from 2 caster dps groups and 2 melee dps groups(including MT group) to DoV with 1 caster dps group and 3 melee groups.  UT and jester's cap is quite useless.  I have been putting UT on myself cause the Wizard wants TC and the illy told me he didn't need it. 

That needs to be addressed.

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Old 10-01-2011, 12:25 AM   #116
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I fail to see how Jester's Cap and Upbeat Tempo are useless.  I also raid with only one mage group.  I usually give Upbeat Tempo to the Conji and TC goes to Wizard or Warlock (We figured out that this organization of the buffs works better for our group as a whole) Jester's Cap can be cast on anyone and give benefit.  I never give Upbeat to myself. Upbeat Tempo can also be cast on anyone and give benefit.  I've given it to the healer who is solo healing HM, I've also given it to tanks (which we rarely have in the group but sometimes for fights requiring 4 tanks) to help with their snaps and temps.  I know that Upbeat on the healer or tank is not ideal but sometimes it is needed.  As a general rule I put it on the Conji.

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Old 10-02-2011, 03:55 AM   #117
AziBam

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xdeadumx wrote:

DJWolf5 wrote:

First of all, anything that won't get used in a raid, I don't care about.  Minimise it, maximise it, lose it or give it to some other class, I don't care.

Secondly, I'm not looking to become an assassin, a ranger or a swashy because unlike them I am not DPS, I am a support class or at least that is the theory.  I want to parse as well as a dirge and I fail to see the problem there.  In addition, the changes that have occurred have gradually devalued the troub and not just our own personal DPS.

There seems to be discussion about Jester's Cap and its immunity.  Great!  But lets put some thought into making it something that people want.

Countersong... 12 seconds... really?  And the re-use timer remains to keep this spell amongst the other "gimicks" that actually change nothing for my performance or for the raid.  It can sit next to Energising Ballad that is great but no one relies on you for it.

All in all, nothing here is thrilling.  For example, Rejuvenating Celebration will get an upgrade... great.  I have 5 concentration slots and so it still won't get a look in.  As for doing encounter or AOE damage, any change in this direction has limited appeal.  It just means that an ability I once used now gets counted amongst the things I cannot do when the raid leader says "No encounter or AOEs please".  And, in other circumstances without accompanying hate pushing, it will just get me killed.  That's not an upgrade so while changing Tap Essence to trickle a tiny bit of mana to the group is great but making it an encounter spell is not and diminishing its damage when it is hardly note-worthy now sets this as a downgrade.

The are two real problem for troubs.  I don't know if anyone has noticed but mages are no longer the kings of DPS they used to be.  Wizards were once guaranteed to top the parse but now they are strugling against assassins and swashies.  In part, this is due to the fact that much of what caster support offers is now irrelevant.  The wizards don't want UT anymore and the warlock, when we have one, says "I'll take it".  When our raid forms, the main tank fills his group with an assassin to push hate, a dirge and a coercer.  Troubs rarely get a look in on one of these groups and not only are dirges better parsers they also get buffed with a variety of goodies from the many clases that want them in their groups.  The mage groups are now disappointments.  Troubs generally get two or three Blades of Ro from the Wizards each bestowing a few hundred damage... yawn... that is far from impressive.  So add 1K damage to each Blade of Ro.  Now that would get me excited.

I totally agree.  In SF my guild went from 2 caster dps groups and 2 melee dps groups(including MT group) to DoV with 1 caster dps group and 3 melee groups.  UT and jester's cap is quite useless.  I have been putting UT on myself cause the Wizard wants TC and the illy told me he didn't need it. 

That needs to be addressed.

Any wizard SHOULD decline UT in exchange for TC when given the choice.  The spell DA associated with TC does more for them than a boost to their relatively weak DoTs.  On the other hand, a warlock should ALWAYS take UT over TC as two extra ticks on their DoTs is absolutely huge for that class.  UT is far from useless.  Both of you seem to associate wizards with being the exlusive holders of mage dps.  That is simply not the case (nor should it be.) TC on Wiz and/or Conj. UT on Warlock and/or Necro. Any caster declining either of those buffs when nothing else is available is foolish.  Some casters just benefit more from one buff than the other. 

From my perspective playing a warlock in raids, UT is the best buff in this game bar none. 

Oh, jcap useless??  So, all 24 people in the raid are capped on reuse? (Not to mention casting and recovery.) That's a pretty well equipped bunch there.

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Old 10-02-2011, 02:26 PM   #118
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So thanks SOE for working on troubs and now i whant to know when second draft is comming, Cant realy say the changes that you made sofar makes the class better in anyway, maby slight but common you can do better that this and troubs needs it before we lose them all.

Ty

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Old 10-05-2011, 01:46 PM   #119
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Rocksthemic wrote:

latesttoon wrote:

make troub Charm  useful.. e.g. last until cancelled.

Simple.

That is one of the changes that might be useful for PvP and to solo better I guess, but for most content it would be pretty much useless. It in no way would solve the disparity between troubadors and dirges in respect to dps and what they bring to a group. Coercers can charm quite well, but it hasn't been since TSO that I've actually heard "lets get a coercer for this group so they can charm something"

PVP/Solo = exactly

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Old 10-06-2011, 02:19 PM   #120
Fairin

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10/6/2011 - logged in with the new changes. set my new bars the way i like them parsed 30k more on the aoe dummies (yay!) single target didnt change only noticeing ONE problem

J-cap with no immunity timer is exceedingly annoying to make several macros and fill my hotbar

-Solution- Make Jcap give an immunity timer equal to its Duration. Please i dont want to refresh it i want to place it on as many people. without growing an extra finger or 3

-edit- if there is a solution through command macros thats sufficent for at least me. i.e. dont cast on target with buff

PS 15 crit on myth is worthless. enough dirges are crying about their new 25% flurry/potency buff. so can has it instead? -love Feyrin

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