Can Non-Shaman Healers Expect Anything This Xpac? - Page 2

Daalilama · 11-12-2016, 01:35 AM

You are aware outside of Zek and Mara zones vanilla ToT did not incorporate Resolve or Bleedthrough and Bleedthrough was pretty much only in Mara zones.....and nominal at best...however both mechanics have left their live testing phase and will be incorporated in just about everything in next xpac...is it me or are some people intentionally missing the point?

Diveris · 11-12-2016, 08:32 AM

Faith in the dev team... there are times where it's hard enough to find one healer for a group let alone two lol. What's next two tank encounters in group zones?

Lemilla · 11-13-2016, 02:04 PM

Because a 6 mil hit on a player with 4 mil HP still kills even with Channeler intercepts, because that hit is only reduced to 4.8 mil. It's more than druids and clerics can do, but it doesn't come close to groupwards from shammies.

On the other hand, shaman+channeler is a great combination because the intercepts pick up almost everything that bleeds through the wards.

Daalilama · 11-13-2016, 03:00 PM

K so it looks like all non shaman are getting nothing going into this xpac even after ample amount of concerns prior to beta...and with only a few days till launch just gonna say we're screwed.

Mermut · 11-13-2016, 09:24 PM

Yup. As a non-shaman I can't even blame people.

11-14-2016, 12:31 AM

By possible i am not talking about any real DPS reduction. Summing the following points up, an increase of more than 20.000 stamina and 20-30% max health is possible for everyone without losing offensive stats.

Deity Layer goes up to ~500 Stamina per item (scales all four values in parallel, no influence on DPS)
Physical Layer infusers go up to ~500 Stamina per item - of course, if you use your crafting components on stamina infusers early, this will delay your offensive stat growth a bit, but does not restrikt them as a tradeoff.
Deity Experience points grant % HP per point (at least thats what several ppl told me, my UI is a bit buggy on beta, even if i load standard, cannot verify it without calculating atm). So increasing it to at least 20 will be rather fast, if not already done. This, of course, will delay the increase of the offensive stats (pot/cb), but not that relevant i would say in respect to the necessary experience curve. Somewhere around 30 you start to need several days of active playing or brute force grinding to get the next point . . . so its meaningful to increase them equally. It will stagnate between 30 and 40 anyways, for some brutal powergamers, maybe between 40 and 50 (if the curve goes on in the known way, i know not a single person with 40 points in one stat).

Mermut · 11-14-2016, 12:44 AM

Personally, I don't have near enough plat to throw enough at gear to get even a single piece of gear up 500 stamina, let alone a full set. And I'm not interested in selling loot rights, buying krono with real money to sell for plat or other similar ways required to get the kind of plat needed to bump all the gear on my toons.

11-14-2016, 12:55 AM

I can understand your point and heard that argument many times. Everyone has to decide what she/he wants to do for his character and in what dimension. However, at least for my raid-mates i expect a bit of infusing (ambitious progression raiding) and i try to motivate it with the following argument:

For a good item which will (most likely) be worn a rather long time, a player usually invests about 10-15 hours (my calculation is based on either average DKP prices per item from our raid or 50 items per year divided by the raid time. I am not considering fully infused T1 loot for example). On Thurgadin, keys sell for ~1000 platin each, often more in the past. There will be keys again in KA and they will at least grant epic infuser, so they won't be any cheaper i am pretty sure. Pricing of platin infusion is more stable in KA (own statistics only, but tested a few dozen items) and is around 30k platin per item. A new key quest can easily be done in 9 minutes (i found only one so far but it has a 20 minutes timer and grants 5 keys instead of one). So lets say you need 15 minutes with moving, zoning and logging. Thats 4*5*1000 = 20.000P in one hour! So less than two hours to grant a huge amount of stats to a powerful item for which more than 10 hours were spent so far - sounds fair for me. It was around 2-3 hours in Zek times due to more moving times, but principle should be clear.

Mermut · 11-14-2016, 03:46 AM

Yahku said: ↑

“I can understand your point and heard that argument many times. Everyone has to decide what she/he wants to do for his character and in what dimension. However, at least for my raid-mates i expect a bit of infusing (ambitious progression raiding) and i try to motivate it with the following argument:

For a good item which will (most likely) be worn a rather long time, a player usually invests about 10-15 hours (my calculation is based on either average DKP prices per item from our raid or 50 items per year divided by the raid time. I am not considering fully infused T1 loot for example). On Thurgadin, keys sell for ~1000 platin each, often more in the past. There will be keys again in KA and they will at least grant epic infuser, so they won't be any cheaper i am pretty sure. Pricing of platin infusion is more stable in KA (own statistics only, but tested a few dozen items) and is around 30k platin per item. A new key quest can easily be done in 9 minutes (i found only one so far but it has a 20 minutes timer and grants 5 keys instead of one). So lets say you need 15 minutes with moving, zoning and logging. Thats 4*5*1000 = 20.000P in one hour! So less than two hours to grant a huge amount of stats to a powerful item for which more than 10 hours were spent so far - sounds fair for me. It was around 2-3 hours in Zek times due to more moving times, but principle should be clear.”

It just seems kind of broken that everybody 'has' to do a bunch extra to be able to survive in a group w/o a shaman...

Daalilama · 11-14-2016, 05:19 AM

It does seem that a "solution" to groups without a shaman is to sink everything including the kitchen sink into jacking their hp up above what is normally there...excuse me but if you can't see on it's face no matter how possible your solution is it is by it's very nature repressive. Simply put due to poor mechanical changes, non shaman healer groups are now "mandated" to at the outset to increase their max health as much as possible or be benched or lay dead...shoot we are not even talking t3 or 4 raid zones yet....completely illogical. You route to survival is indeed possible but excessively punishing due to the simple fact that nothing I've seen in beta will address this ever increasing mechanical problem for non shaman. Are the devs going to suit up as an extra shaman for raid forces that can't field 3 or 4 to deal with this....

So yeah your solution could work but again ignores the primary issue left on the table. Beta used to be about addressing class issues especially with mechanics changes...and yet there has been absolutely zero done to address the concerns. I am seeing the same radio silence that we saw when they broke shamans in ToV and the majority of healers including the non shamans here repeatedly brought it to their attention how much of a problem that was going to create.

Bad JuJu all around.

11-14-2016, 08:30 AM

Thats not true, to give an example value for the effects of new equipment, deity points and infusion: its absolutely possible to reach ~10 million HP on a non-tank (including buffs within a raid)! Even the gardener mercenary has ~9 million HP without a single piece of equipment. Thats a big step in the right direction, assuming that the people care for their equipment.

Mermut · 11-14-2016, 08:37 AM

By possible, do you mean by gearing specifically for hitpoints? Or with a more normal gear set?
People shouldn't have to gear specifically for hitpoints (and reducing their dps) because the mechanics make it the only way or non-shaman to keep them alive.

quisling · 11-14-2016, 08:57 AM

Even more...if you have a choice between nerfing dps by gearing for hitpoints, or simply having a shaman...it ain't all that difficult to figure out what the default will continue to be...

Daalilama · 11-14-2016, 05:56 PM

So I've come to the conclusion we are getting bupkis atm so with that said I will simply have to become a beta forum nuisance once more and compile a things to do list for templars...ok clerics...hmm maybe other non shaman heals list as well (hey I good but not that good) along the lines of one of my infamous massive wall of archtype/class bullet points again...granted it wont be out quickly....and I'll post it in the regular class forums simply because they will remove these beta forums....so play a non-shaman and have some ideas....pm me and I'll incorporate all I can....

Well at least I'll try for one of my old mega posts last one I did took hours...and I can swear I lost some brain cells along the way...

Shame really considering the data sitting completely unused in the mega class feedback forums....k gonna need a 2 liter of coke, carton of smokes and some mood music.

11-14-2016, 07:05 PM

Daalilama said: ↑

“So I've come to the conclusion we are getting bupkis atm so with that said I will simply have to become a beta forum nuisance once more and compile a things to do list for templars...ok clerics...hmm maybe other non shaman heals list as well (hey I good but not that good) along the lines of one of my infamous massive wall of archtype/class bullet points again...granted it wont be out quickly....and I'll post it in the regular class forums simply because they will remove these beta forums....so play a non-shaman and have some ideas....pm me and I'll incorporate all I can....

Well at least I'll try for one of my old mega posts last one I did took hours...and I can swear I lost some brain cells along the way...

Shame really considering the data sitting completely unused in the mega class feedback forums....k gonna need a 2 liter of coke, carton of smokes and some mood music.”

Really, all you need to say is what has already been said. Give healers something to heal rather than the need to block everything. Trash damage shouldn't kill people instantly. No damage should kill anyone instantly unless it is a scripted event. There doesn't need to be a super long post about it. Classes themselves don't even really need to be changed. Beta made it seem like if the game is changing at all, it is changing in a way that requires wards plus heals rather than just wards. I feel this was one of the worst ways to 'fix' the healer balance issue because it now requires 2 healers rather than allowing everyone to feel on the same or similar level.

11-12-2016, 08:32 AM	#32
Diveris Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Daalilama said: ↑ “Zues why are you dancing around the main point...which is based upon the current mechanics with bleedthrough on Beta....raids will need to have 8 heals 4 being shaman...if a group does not have a shaman in it that quite frankly they are going to get rickrolled hard.... The debate was never how much of your ward would be used up or if the damage would be reduced further from further wards...it's primarily about a group's survivability without a shaman even with a tandem that should be the biggest and only concern here.” Faith in the dev team... there are times where it's hard enough to find one healer for a group let alone two lol. What's next two tank encounters in group zones?

11-13-2016, 02:04 PM	#33
Lemilla Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Arieva said: ↑ “I do wonder why channelers who are supposed to be at the forefront of intercepting damage aren't able to fill in for the shaman role at this point.” Because a 6 mil hit on a player with 4 mil HP still kills even with Channeler intercepts, because that hit is only reduced to 4.8 mil. It's more than druids and clerics can do, but it doesn't come close to groupwards from shammies. On the other hand, shaman+channeler is a great combination because the intercepts pick up almost everything that bleeds through the wards.

11-13-2016, 09:24 PM	#35
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	quisling said: ↑ “Even more...if you have a choice between nerfing dps by gearing for hitpoints, or simply having a shaman...it ain't all that difficult to figure out what the default will continue to be...” Yup. As a non-shaman I can't even blame people.

11-14-2016, 12:31 AM	#36
Yahku New Member Posts: n/a	By possible i am not talking about any real DPS reduction. Summing the following points up, an increase of more than 20.000 stamina and 20-30% max health is possible for everyone without losing offensive stats. Deity Layer goes up to ~500 Stamina per item (scales all four values in parallel, no influence on DPS) Physical Layer infusers go up to ~500 Stamina per item - of course, if you use your crafting components on stamina infusers early, this will delay your offensive stat growth a bit, but does not restrikt them as a tradeoff. Deity Experience points grant % HP per point (at least thats what several ppl told me, my UI is a bit buggy on beta, even if i load standard, cannot verify it without calculating atm). So increasing it to at least 20 will be rather fast, if not already done. This, of course, will delay the increase of the offensive stats (pot/cb), but not that relevant i would say in respect to the necessary experience curve. Somewhere around 30 you start to need several days of active playing or brute force grinding to get the next point . . . so its meaningful to increase them equally. It will stagnate between 30 and 40 anyways, for some brutal powergamers, maybe between 40 and 50 (if the curve goes on in the known way, i know not a single person with 40 points in one stat).

11-14-2016, 12:44 AM	#37
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Yahku said: ↑ “ Deity Layer goes up to ~500 Stamina per item (scales all four values parallel, no influence on DPS) snip>” Personally, I don't have near enough plat to throw enough at gear to get even a single piece of gear up 500 stamina, let alone a full set. And I'm not interested in selling loot rights, buying krono with real money to sell for plat or other similar ways required to get the kind of plat needed to bump all the gear on my toons.

11-12-2016, 01:35 AM	#31
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	You are aware outside of Zek and Mara zones vanilla ToT did not incorporate Resolve or Bleedthrough and Bleedthrough was pretty much only in Mara zones.....and nominal at best...however both mechanics have left their live testing phase and will be incorporated in just about everything in next xpac...is it me or are some people intentionally missing the point?

11-13-2016, 03:00 PM	#34
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	K so it looks like all non shaman are getting nothing going into this xpac even after ample amount of concerns prior to beta...and with only a few days till launch just gonna say we're screwed.

11-14-2016, 12:55 AM	#38
Yahku New Member Posts: n/a	I can understand your point and heard that argument many times. Everyone has to decide what she/he wants to do for his character and in what dimension. However, at least for my raid-mates i expect a bit of infusing (ambitious progression raiding) and i try to motivate it with the following argument: For a good item which will (most likely) be worn a rather long time, a player usually invests about 10-15 hours (my calculation is based on either average DKP prices per item from our raid or 50 items per year divided by the raid time. I am not considering fully infused T1 loot for example). On Thurgadin, keys sell for ~1000 platin each, often more in the past. There will be keys again in KA and they will at least grant epic infuser, so they won't be any cheaper i am pretty sure. Pricing of platin infusion is more stable in KA (own statistics only, but tested a few dozen items) and is around 30k platin per item. A new key quest can easily be done in 9 minutes (i found only one so far but it has a 20 minutes timer and grants 5 keys instead of one). So lets say you need 15 minutes with moving, zoning and logging. Thats 451000 = 20.000P in one hour! So less than two hours to grant a huge amount of stats to a powerful item for which more than 10 hours were spent so far - sounds fair for me. It was around 2-3 hours in Zek times due to more moving times, but principle should be clear.

11-14-2016, 03:46 AM	#39
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Yahku said: ↑ “I can understand your point and heard that argument many times. Everyone has to decide what she/he wants to do for his character and in what dimension. However, at least for my raid-mates i expect a bit of infusing (ambitious progression raiding) and i try to motivate it with the following argument: For a good item which will (most likely) be worn a rather long time, a player usually invests about 10-15 hours (my calculation is based on either average DKP prices per item from our raid or 50 items per year divided by the raid time. I am not considering fully infused T1 loot for example). On Thurgadin, keys sell for ~1000 platin each, often more in the past. There will be keys again in KA and they will at least grant epic infuser, so they won't be any cheaper i am pretty sure. Pricing of platin infusion is more stable in KA (own statistics only, but tested a few dozen items) and is around 30k platin per item. A new key quest can easily be done in 9 minutes (i found only one so far but it has a 20 minutes timer and grants 5 keys instead of one). So lets say you need 15 minutes with moving, zoning and logging. Thats 451000 = 20.000P in one hour! So less than two hours to grant a huge amount of stats to a powerful item for which more than 10 hours were spent so far - sounds fair for me. It was around 2-3 hours in Zek times due to more moving times, but principle should be clear.” It just seems kind of broken that everybody 'has' to do a bunch extra to be able to survive in a group w/o a shaman...

11-14-2016, 05:19 AM	#40
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	It does seem that a "solution" to groups without a shaman is to sink everything including the kitchen sink into jacking their hp up above what is normally there...excuse me but if you can't see on it's face no matter how possible your solution is it is by it's very nature repressive. Simply put due to poor mechanical changes, non shaman healer groups are now "mandated" to at the outset to increase their max health as much as possible or be benched or lay dead...shoot we are not even talking t3 or 4 raid zones yet....completely illogical. You route to survival is indeed possible but excessively punishing due to the simple fact that nothing I've seen in beta will address this ever increasing mechanical problem for non shaman. Are the devs going to suit up as an extra shaman for raid forces that can't field 3 or 4 to deal with this.... So yeah your solution could work but again ignores the primary issue left on the table. Beta used to be about addressing class issues especially with mechanics changes...and yet there has been absolutely zero done to address the concerns. I am seeing the same radio silence that we saw when they broke shamans in ToV and the majority of healers including the non shamans here repeatedly brought it to their attention how much of a problem that was going to create. Bad JuJu all around.

11-14-2016, 08:30 AM	#41
Yahku New Member Posts: n/a	Thats not true, to give an example value for the effects of new equipment, deity points and infusion: its absolutely possible to reach ~10 million HP on a non-tank (including buffs within a raid)! Even the gardener mercenary has ~9 million HP without a single piece of equipment. Thats a big step in the right direction, assuming that the people care for their equipment.

11-14-2016, 08:37 AM	#42
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Yahku said: ↑ “Thats not true, to give an example value for the effects of new equipment, deity points and infusion: its absolutely possible to reach ~10 million HP on a non-tank (including buffs within a raid)! Even the gardener mercenary has ~9 million HP without a single piece of equipment. Thats a big step in the right direction, assuming that the people care for their equipment.” By possible, do you mean by gearing specifically for hitpoints? Or with a more normal gear set? People shouldn't have to gear specifically for hitpoints (and reducing their dps) because the mechanics make it the only way or non-shaman to keep them alive.

11-14-2016, 08:57 AM	#43
quisling Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Mermut said: ↑ “By possible, do you mean by gearing specifically for hitpoints? Or with a more normal gear set? People shouldn't have to gear specifically for hitpoints (and reducing their dps) because the mechanics make it the only way or non-shaman to keep them alive.” Even more...if you have a choice between nerfing dps by gearing for hitpoints, or simply having a shaman...it ain't all that difficult to figure out what the default will continue to be...

11-14-2016, 05:56 PM	#44
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	So I've come to the conclusion we are getting bupkis atm so with that said I will simply have to become a beta forum nuisance once more and compile a things to do list for templars...ok clerics...hmm maybe other non shaman heals list as well (hey I good but not that good) along the lines of one of my infamous massive wall of archtype/class bullet points again...granted it wont be out quickly....and I'll post it in the regular class forums simply because they will remove these beta forums....so play a non-shaman and have some ideas....pm me and I'll incorporate all I can.... Well at least I'll try for one of my old mega posts last one I did took hours...and I can swear I lost some brain cells along the way... Shame really considering the data sitting completely unused in the mega class feedback forums....k gonna need a 2 liter of coke, carton of smokes and some mood music.

11-14-2016, 07:05 PM	#45
captainbeatty451 Active Member Posts: n/a	Daalilama said: ↑ “So I've come to the conclusion we are getting bupkis atm so with that said I will simply have to become a beta forum nuisance once more and compile a things to do list for templars...ok clerics...hmm maybe other non shaman heals list as well (hey I good but not that good) along the lines of one of my infamous massive wall of archtype/class bullet points again...granted it wont be out quickly....and I'll post it in the regular class forums simply because they will remove these beta forums....so play a non-shaman and have some ideas....pm me and I'll incorporate all I can.... Well at least I'll try for one of my old mega posts last one I did took hours...and I can swear I lost some brain cells along the way... Shame really considering the data sitting completely unused in the mega class feedback forums....k gonna need a 2 liter of coke, carton of smokes and some mood music.” Really, all you need to say is what has already been said. Give healers something to heal rather than the need to block everything. Trash damage shouldn't kill people instantly. No damage should kill anyone instantly unless it is a scripted event. There doesn't need to be a super long post about it. Classes themselves don't even really need to be changed. Beta made it seem like if the game is changing at all, it is changing in a way that requires wards plus heals rather than just wards. I feel this was one of the worst ways to 'fix' the healer balance issue because it now requires 2 healers rather than allowing everyone to feel on the same or similar level.