Beastlord changes - Page 2

11-02-2016, 03:22 PM

dirges get increased trigger chance, and combat mastery (providing a brawler), and the fact that melee buffs are in general, larger than spell buffs. dirges also get better resets from RO, further improving their vc's. And judging from my long history of outparsing most troubs, i think that things are relatively balanced.
That being said, i do agree that the proc on oration of sacrifice could be reworked to something along the lines of jcap, but in all seriousness its not really needed.

11-02-2016, 04:12 PM

I can't help but notice how many sorcerers have changed to Beastlords by looking at your sigs, I feel left out.

11-02-2016, 05:15 PM

They stated in Discord chat that they don't use parses because there are so many variables that go into a parse that it's mostly meaningless to them. Which is true.

I can imagine they might have some kind of combat simulator where they can effectively build cast rotations and then look at outcomes and tweak base damage as appropriate. Or, all combat damage in game is centrally logged and they can run analytics and assume that averaging out all the players of a class will be a good indicator.

With that said, parses are still the only thing players tend to use. If you're lucky, they'll try to normalize against their peers by factoring out who got what buffs and how much gear and infusing contributes. See my posts in the summoner mega-whine thread in mage forum for example.

11-03-2016, 05:11 AM

That makes me feel better. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt but the timing of the changes I mentioned worried me. I imagine class balance in general must be a frustrating process. I am very greatful that the devs seem to be trying to listen to the players for suggestions. I guess I will have to just sit back and see how it plays out.

11-03-2016, 05:13 AM

I do miss my wiz from time to time but when I joined the previous guild I was in they had one overly filled Mage group and 2 solid scout groups. I figured I'd rather try a class that has great potential than sit in a scout group as a Mage and feel like a total scrub. Thankfully the recent itemization has let me feel more like a Mage than a dirty scout Smile

11-03-2016, 07:32 AM

Please don't put items so op in game such as the hammer , players of all classes shouldn't need to have an ultra rare drop so they can compete I mean just balance the classes and we are all happy campers.

11-03-2016, 09:10 AM

I don't think the existence of the item is all that bad, what should of happened is it should not of been a stupidly rare drop off an extremely easy name! It should of been off a much harder mob like Kraletus and allow whole guilds to obtain an item of this power, Sure what you saying is that some classes benefit more then others is true but how the item was obtain this expac was done wrong.

11-03-2016, 12:17 PM

I agree 1000%. Anything even close to "fundamentally game changing" levels should be off the hardest mobs in the xpac. That's assuming that you really, really gotta put that kind of item in game in the first place... which is the other part of this discussion.

11-03-2016, 02:29 PM

There is more to it then that.
Items like these is what creates a goal (dream?) for a large number of players, if its too far out of their reach (eg. near impossible kraletus drop) it kinda loses its function because it will become a hopeless goal for most.
The "slight" chance of being able to obtain such an item (the more OP the better) is what keeps some people playing. BigGrin

11-03-2016, 07:08 PM

This wouldnt change anything at all, would just have less people being insanely OP. And its easy after the fact to want awesome items to drop off really hard content that you already know your guild can kill. Ill bet you wouldnt have made this post before 10/17.

Errrorr · 11-03-2016, 07:20 PM

Any top guild wants the top items to come off end game content, not a random chance off an easy mob.

I'd like the best KA loot to be from the final zone, and I've not cleared it Smile

11-03-2016, 07:43 PM

Nah this is a fairy tale, top players want top gear and we don't care where it comes from. The problem with the hammer has absolutely nothing to do with what mob it drops from.

11-03-2016, 09:00 PM

Ill say again, the mob the item drops off of doesn't make it any less unbalanced.
I see alot of "If only i have access to it it suddenly becomes balanced" going on.

11-03-2016, 11:08 PM

the problem isnt the comparison of a hammered BL vs a BL without a hammer, issue is a hammered BL vs a hammered anything else.

While i am no BL expert, and only going off whats been said on the forums, a BL with a hammer gets the proc fires off all his primals that were reset AND is able to to do it again when their runes proc also. All i can speak for is assassin and with how our FF chain works it doesnt work out that we can fire off our chain for each reset/fervor proc

11-03-2016, 11:16 PM

Why cant you? Besides that they proc over each other most of the time, so its not like we are firing off full primal chains right after the other.

11-03-2016, 11:20 PM

ConcealmentIPS resets with the hammer, but not with a reset rune. So if hammer goes off first, and concealment is used it wont be up to unload a FF chain again

Plus a full FF chain, which is nearly impossible to pull off with raid lag in the 7 seconds of a fervor proc, is Concealment+5 single target attacks+2 ae attacks+ FF. Overlap in procs wrecks us a lot more than hitting a few primals

11-03-2016, 11:22 PM

hammered conj vs hammered BL is real close. Conj is super easy to play so sounds fair to me.
I dont have any other comparisons to go by, Does anyone even play anything else seriously anymore?

11-03-2016, 11:28 PM

So you stack Concealment and IPS? I have never played a sin so no idea.

Edit sry i was thinking of PFT and IPS

11-03-2016, 11:33 PM

IPS is the prestige variant of concealment and on the same timer

11-03-2016, 11:38 PM

Sounds like a mechanics/lag problem to me. You want a class nerfed because of mechanics that hurt your class? Sounds legit

11-03-2016, 11:38 PM

Yea i edited my post, thought you ment PFT/IPS

11-03-2016, 11:57 PM

Actually I have said that in the past, I'll see if I can find where I did.

11-04-2016, 12:40 AM

Other t1 classes are toe to toe with blords when both have the hammer proc which includes other scouts that's a fact don't make me get rails on here linking parses.

11-04-2016, 01:02 AM

Exactly

11-04-2016, 08:35 AM

It is way op the difference is night and day you now have players crying for nerfs to classes when there's 2 tiers of the class ie a beast lord with this item proc verses one with out . We were all pretty close till this item came into play how do they balance classes / general game play with such an op proc . The gear progression has been atrocious and yes I have the item so I am not just some one that's salty.

11-04-2016, 08:54 AM

Players (myself included) have been calling for items like this to be nerfed for awhile. It should never have existed, but if it had to exist, it should have been on the very hardest content in the game (i.e. the staff from Kraletus - that was an appropriate place to put it).

Now that specific classes are being threatened with nerf because they get more benefit out of items like this, we're crying even louder for the root cause to be addressed before one or more classes get destroyed for no reason.

11-02-2016, 03:22 PM	#31
Pitta Member Posts: n/a	Alway said: ↑ “if dirges had something similar sure, the damage from their heal is **** compared to jcap” dirges get increased trigger chance, and combat mastery (providing a brawler), and the fact that melee buffs are in general, larger than spell buffs. dirges also get better resets from RO, further improving their vc's. And judging from my long history of outparsing most troubs, i think that things are relatively balanced. That being said, i do agree that the proc on oration of sacrifice could be reworked to something along the lines of jcap, but in all seriousness its not really needed.

11-02-2016, 05:15 PM	#33
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	Talduke said: ↑ “Id be interested in seeing what they use to determine when a class is op or not then, I can't help but disagree when you say devs dont use this type of data.” They stated in Discord chat that they don't use parses because there are so many variables that go into a parse that it's mostly meaningless to them. Which is true. I can imagine they might have some kind of combat simulator where they can effectively build cast rotations and then look at outcomes and tweak base damage as appropriate. Or, all combat damage in game is centrally logged and they can run analytics and assume that averaging out all the players of a class will be a good indicator. With that said, parses are still the only thing players tend to use. If you're lucky, they'll try to normalize against their peers by factoring out who got what buffs and how much gear and infusing contributes. See my posts in the summoner mega-whine thread in mage forum for example.

11-03-2016, 05:13 AM	#35
Talduke Member Posts: n/a	Rondo9 said: ↑ “I can't help but notice how many sorcerers have changed to Beastlords by looking at your sigs, I feel left out.” I do miss my wiz from time to time but when I joined the previous guild I was in they had one overly filled Mage group and 2 solid scout groups. I figured I'd rather try a class that has great potential than sit in a scout group as a Mage and feel like a total scrub. Thankfully the recent itemization has let me feel more like a Mage than a dirty scout

11-03-2016, 12:17 PM	#38
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	Rondo9 said: ↑ “I don't think the existence of the item is all that bad, what should of happened is it should not of been a stupidly rare drop off an extremely easy name! It should of been off a much harder mob like Kraletus and allow whole guilds to obtain an item of this power, Sure what you saying is that some classes benefit more then others is true but how the item was obtain this expac was done wrong.” I agree 1000%. Anything even close to "fundamentally game changing" levels should be off the hardest mobs in the xpac. That's assuming that you really, really gotta put that kind of item in game in the first place... which is the other part of this discussion.

11-03-2016, 07:08 PM	#40
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	Rondo9 said: ↑ “I don't think the existence of the item is all that bad, what should of happened is it should not of been a stupidly rare drop off an extremely easy name! It should of been off a much harder mob like Kraletus and allow whole guilds to obtain an item of this power, Sure what you saying is that some classes benefit more then others is true but how the item was obtain this expac was done wrong.” This wouldnt change anything at all, would just have less people being insanely OP. And its easy after the fact to want awesome items to drop off really hard content that you already know your guild can kill. Ill bet you wouldnt have made this post before 10/17.

11-02-2016, 04:12 PM	#32
Rondo9 Active Member Posts: n/a	I can't help but notice how many sorcerers have changed to Beastlords by looking at your sigs, I feel left out.

11-03-2016, 05:11 AM	#34
Talduke Member Posts: n/a	That makes me feel better. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt but the timing of the changes I mentioned worried me. I imagine class balance in general must be a frustrating process. I am very greatful that the devs seem to be trying to listen to the players for suggestions. I guess I will have to just sit back and see how it plays out.

11-03-2016, 07:32 AM	#36
Ashandra Active Member Posts: n/a	Please don't put items so op in game such as the hammer , players of all classes shouldn't need to have an ultra rare drop so they can compete I mean just balance the classes and we are all happy campers.

11-03-2016, 09:10 AM	#37
Rondo9 Active Member Posts: n/a	I don't think the existence of the item is all that bad, what should of happened is it should not of been a stupidly rare drop off an extremely easy name! It should of been off a much harder mob like Kraletus and allow whole guilds to obtain an item of this power, Sure what you saying is that some classes benefit more then others is true but how the item was obtain this expac was done wrong.

11-03-2016, 02:29 PM	#39
Easiette Member Posts: n/a	There is more to it then that. Items like these is what creates a goal (dream?) for a large number of players, if its too far out of their reach (eg. near impossible kraletus drop) it kinda loses its function because it will become a hopeless goal for most. The "slight" chance of being able to obtain such an item (the more OP the better) is what keeps some people playing.

11-03-2016, 07:20 PM	#41
Errrorr Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Brightlyz said: ↑ “This wouldnt change anything at all, would just have less people being insanely OP. And its easy after the fact to want awesome items to drop off really hard content that you already know your guild can kill. Ill bet you wouldnt have made this post before 10/17.” Any top guild wants the top items to come off end game content, not a random chance off an easy mob. I'd like the best KA loot to be from the final zone, and I've not cleared it

11-03-2016, 07:43 PM	#42
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	Errrorr said: ↑ “Any top guild wants the top items to come off end game content, not a random chance off an easy mob. I'd like the best KA loot to be from the final zone, and I've not cleared it ” Nah this is a fairy tale, top players want top gear and we don't care where it comes from. The problem with the hammer has absolutely nothing to do with what mob it drops from.

11-03-2016, 09:00 PM	#43
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	Ill say again, the mob the item drops off of doesn't make it any less unbalanced. I see alot of "If only i have access to it it suddenly becomes balanced" going on.

11-03-2016, 11:08 PM	#44
kluxor Active Member Posts: n/a	Ashandra said: ↑ “It is way op the difference is night and day you now have players crying for nerfs to classes when there's 2 tiers of the class ie a beast lord with this item proc verses one with out . We were all pretty close till this item came into play how do they balance classes / general game play with such an op proc . The gear progression has been atrocious and yes I have the item so I am not just some one that's salty.” the problem isnt the comparison of a hammered BL vs a BL without a hammer, issue is a hammered BL vs a hammered anything else. While i am no BL expert, and only going off whats been said on the forums, a BL with a hammer gets the proc fires off all his primals that were reset AND is able to to do it again when their runes proc also. All i can speak for is assassin and with how our FF chain works it doesnt work out that we can fire off our chain for each reset/fervor proc

11-03-2016, 11:16 PM	#45
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	kluxor said: ↑ “the problem isnt the comparison of a hammered BL vs a BL without a hammer, issue is a hammered BL vs a hammered anything else. While i am no BL expert, and only going off whats been said on the forums, a BL with a hammer gets the proc fires off all his primals that were reset AND is able to to do it again when their runes proc also. All i can speak for is assassin and with how our FF chain works it doesnt work out that we can fire off our chain for each reset/fervor proc” Why cant you? Besides that they proc over each other most of the time, so its not like we are firing off full primal chains right after the other.

11-03-2016, 11:20 PM	#46
kluxor Active Member Posts: n/a	Brightlyz said: ↑ “Why cant you? Besides that they proc over each other most of the time, so its not like we are firing off full primal chains right after the other.” ConcealmentIPS resets with the hammer, but not with a reset rune. So if hammer goes off first, and concealment is used it wont be up to unload a FF chain again Plus a full FF chain, which is nearly impossible to pull off with raid lag in the 7 seconds of a fervor proc, is Concealment+5 single target attacks+2 ae attacks+ FF. Overlap in procs wrecks us a lot more than hitting a few primals

11-03-2016, 11:22 PM	#47
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	hammered conj vs hammered BL is real close. Conj is super easy to play so sounds fair to me. I dont have any other comparisons to go by, Does anyone even play anything else seriously anymore?

11-03-2016, 11:28 PM	#48
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	kluxor said: ↑ “ConcealmentIPS resets with the hammer, but not with a reset rune. So if hammer goes off first, and concealment is used it wont be up to unload a FF chain again” So you stack Concealment and IPS? I have never played a sin so no idea. Edit sry i was thinking of PFT and IPS

11-03-2016, 11:33 PM	#49
kluxor Active Member Posts: n/a	Brightlyz said: ↑ “So you stack Concealment and IPS? I have never played a sin so no idea. Edit sry i was thinking of PFT and IPS” IPS is the prestige variant of concealment and on the same timer

11-03-2016, 11:38 PM	#50
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	kluxor said: ↑ “ConcealmentIPS resets with the hammer, but not with a reset rune. So if hammer goes off first, and concealment is used it wont be up to unload a FF chain again Plus a full FF chain, which is nearly impossible to pull off with raid lag in the 7 seconds of a fervor proc, is Concealment+5 single target attacks+2 ae attacks+ FF. Overlap in procs wrecks us a lot more than hitting a few primals” Sounds like a mechanics/lag problem to me. You want a class nerfed because of mechanics that hurt your class? Sounds legit

11-03-2016, 11:38 PM	#51
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	kluxor said: ↑ “IPS is the prestige variant of concealment and on the same timer” Yea i edited my post, thought you ment PFT/IPS

11-03-2016, 11:57 PM	#52
Rondo9 Active Member Posts: n/a	Brightlyz said: ↑ “This wouldnt change anything at all, would just have less people being insanely OP. And its easy after the fact to want awesome items to drop off really hard content that you already know your guild can kill. Ill bet you wouldnt have made this post before 10/17.” Actually I have said that in the past, I'll see if I can find where I did.

11-04-2016, 12:40 AM	#53
Ashandra Active Member Posts: n/a	Other t1 classes are toe to toe with blords when both have the hammer proc which includes other scouts that's a fact don't make me get rails on here linking parses.

11-04-2016, 01:02 AM	#54
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	Ashandra said: ↑ “Other t1 classes are toe to toe with blords when both have the hammer proc which includes other scouts that's a fact don't make me get rails on here linking parses.” Exactly

11-04-2016, 08:35 AM	#55
Ashandra Active Member Posts: n/a	It is way op the difference is night and day you now have players crying for nerfs to classes when there's 2 tiers of the class ie a beast lord with this item proc verses one with out . We were all pretty close till this item came into play how do they balance classes / general game play with such an op proc . The gear progression has been atrocious and yes I have the item so I am not just some one that's salty.

11-04-2016, 08:54 AM	#56
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	Ashandra said: ↑ “It is way op the difference is night and day you now have players crying for nerfs to classes when there's 2 tiers of the class ie a beast lord with this item proc verses one with out . We were all pretty close till this item came into play how do they balance classes / general game play with such an op proc the gear progression has been atrocious and yes I have the item so I am not just some one that's salty.” Players (myself included) have been calling for items like this to be nerfed for awhile. It should never have existed, but if it had to exist, it should have been on the very hardest content in the game (i.e. the staff from Kraletus - that was an appropriate place to put it). Now that specific classes are being threatened with nerf because they get more benefit out of items like this, we're crying even louder for the root cause to be addressed before one or more classes get destroyed for no reason.