Shaman Ward Comments

Kari · 10-23-2016, 04:40 AM

I have some feedback on the shaman ward changes for the new content. The new zones appear to have a 50% bleed through on all wards. However even with the bleed through, the group ward is not warding for the expected amount. I am including some parse data from my group today as an example.

The Defiler group ward Carrion Warding does not appear to be functioning properly. Although incoming damage to the tank is averaging 252K, the Carrion Warding is only averaging 33k. This is the amount that is prevented from a 15-20 million point ward that was continually maintained.

When looking at the detail for Carrion warding, the heal appears to be the heal proc given by the epic weapon, and not the ward itself. There is also no bleed through effect, which is consistent with a heal rather than a ward.

Here is the damage to the tank showing the average of 252K.
[IMG]

Here is the detail on heals from Carrion Warding.
[IMG]

Here is the average for Carrion warding at 33k per hit.
[IMG]

Kari · 10-23-2016, 04:46 AM

The reductions to wards appears to be impacting player cast wards but not the war runes. For this test we had a druid wear the Empryan Lands and Undying Devotion war runes. She did not use the chronomage exploit to bug them out, so this is the base value from normal use. She was on autofollow and did not cast a single heal spell the whole zone, but she outparsed an actively played defiler. Tsbarba is the autofollow druid with 1.8 million hps and Karianne is the actively played shaman with 800k hps.

[IMG]

Here is the breakdown of the autofollow druid's heals, where you can see that she was not actively casting any heals, she was strictly on autofollow with the war runes equipped. Empryan Lands is warding for an average of 236K, which is more than 3 times the amount of any player cast ward.
[IMG]

By comparison, here is the actively played defiler, where you can note the variety of wards and heals cast which had less effect than the autofollow war runes. Also each ward is preventing significantly less than half the average hit amount. You can see that with the current value of the war runes, there is no reason to actively heal.

[IMG]

Kari · 10-23-2016, 04:50 AM

We had multiple crashes in the zone, which broke up my act logs. The parses above represent about a half hour of running the repository zone, which was the longest that we lasted between crashes.

10-23-2016, 06:08 AM

---

10-23-2016, 05:43 PM

I started a post and a problem/bug report about the two warding war runes, giving ACT data quite a long time ago when it became apparent that the runes were being exploited. Investigation found that a healer who mentored to 80, zoned, and then un-mentored caused the Empyrean and Undying war runes to generate a self-replenishing group ward worth millions of HPS. A level 100 healer in 95 heroic/token gear casting no heals with the two war runes equipped could top the heal parse over a defiler/mystic wards in a ToT raid setting.

After several months, when no action was taken I then posted a ticket with all screen prints and ACT logs. The CSR informed me that the matter had been turned over to the developer and refused to answer a straight forward question on whether the chrono-trick was an exploit (as did the developer who contacted me afterwards).

All of this was followed by a fix in a fairly recent patch - although it's dubious the fix works 100% of the time on live and is non-existent in Beta.

I think after Kari's post it should be clear that the developers might want to consider:

1) reworking the bleed-through mechanic on the shaman wards so that they are reasonable and consistent, and
2) removing the Empyrean Lands and Undying Devotion from the game.

Kari · 10-23-2016, 05:56 PM

It was encouraging that they attempted to fix the exploit last month, even though the fix didn't actually work. However my bigger concern is that with normal usage and no exploits, they still dramatically out heal the best that I could do as an active healer. Cheaters are going to cheat, but I like to assume that the majority of players are using them as intended.

If they are left in the game, they should have the same adjustments as player wards, so they retain the same relative power as intended for normal usage.

10-24-2016, 07:28 AM

@ Kari: I'm not sure if there is a bug or not, how much would the carrion prevent if the autofollow druid was not here? Regular amount?

With the new bleed mechanic, i have to remind you of a specific ward mechanic, oldest ward goes first so, lets say:

A 250k hit (with 50bleed) according to your incoming damage parse

Passive rune (which is always older than a casted ward) block up to 50% of the incoming damage

Empyrean block 50% of 250k : 125k goes through
Undying block 50% of 125k : 62k goes through
Solo ward block 50% of 62k : 31k goes through
Empowered barrier block 50% of 31k: 15k goes through
Carrion warding block 50% of 15k: 7k goes through

This example assume you cast solo ward before groupe ward, which is all shaman does, so the tank doesn't eat up the group ward first, leaving your DPS unprotected.

Not saying you are wrong, just pointing that particular mechanics so you can do deeper test, like no autofollow druid, and the shaman warding only with carrion warding. Thus carrion warding should ward first, and then ward the expected amount.

Kari · 10-24-2016, 01:25 PM

There is a good chance that the auto-follow druid with the runes was impacting the performance of the ward. Unfortunately our testing was cut short by about 5 crashes and then we disbanded and gave up.

As far as casting order goes, our fights tend to outlast the initial casting order because the tank will continue pulling additional mobs before the mobs all die, we just end up with dying mobs being dragged along from room to room.

10-25-2016, 10:44 AM

that rune wards only for 24k according to tooltip so ... in your test the rune was bugged even if it wasnt warding for milions 250k or w.e it was warding for was bugged already. As Fleurs pointed out you cant really say its op only cuz it refreshes faster. Question is Can all healers pull through w.o the bug rune just with what they got or not.
As far as i know the answer is yes, sure other classes then shamans req more work but still can do it just fine.

What really needs to be done is increase the HP on tanks with at least 10 mil or decrease the Max dmg mobs can do. Problem with non-shamans is that the tanks or their group members die in 1hit and its not because they are poorly geared or anything its just becuase simply the mobs hit way harder then the max hp.

Sogapa · 10-25-2016, 11:44 AM

I have Empyrean Lands war rune on my warden and it only wards 24k. Every single time. I don't know how it's warding so much on beta, but it certainly doesn't on live if you don't monkey with stuff......

Which I found irritating when I wasted a transcendent quintescence (or w/e it's called) to make it. Back in DoV/CoE the ward was affected by potency so I thought it would actually be useful for ToT.

Oh...and for those saying drastically increase hp of players while adding constant smallish incoming damage to make other types of heals than wards useful.....that's what they did in ToV and Shamans complained non stop, so it got changed. Druids were very strong healers in ToV because they were great at dealing with the ticking damage, but shamans complained about it and that was changed fast.

Sogapa · 10-25-2016, 01:00 PM

Sogapa said: ↑

“I have Empyrean Lands war rune on my warden and it only wards 24k. Every single time. I don't know how it's warding so much on beta, but it certainly doesn't on live if you don't monkey with stuff......

Which I found irritating when I wasted a transcendent quintescence (or w/e it's called) to make it. Back in DoV/CoE the ward was affected by potency so I thought it would actually be useful for ToT.

Oh...and for those saying drastically increase hp of players while adding constant smallish incoming damage to make other types of heals than wards useful.....that's what they did in ToV and Shamans complained non stop, so it got changed. Druids were very strong healers in ToV because they were great at dealing with the ticking damage, but shamans complained about it and that was changed fast.”

oops....I confused this with another thread...the top two paragraphs were intended for this thread, but not the last. I was half asleep I guess when I posted.

10-25-2016, 01:09 PM

Sogapa said: ↑

“I have Empyrean Lands war rune on my warden and it only wards 24k. Every single time. I don't know how it's warding so much on beta, but it certainly doesn't on live if you don't monkey with stuff......

Which I found irritating when I wasted a transcendent quintescence (or w/e it's called) to make it. Back in DoV/CoE the ward was affected by potency so I thought it would actually be useful for ToT.

Oh...and for those saying drastically increase hp of players while adding constant smallish incoming damage to make other types of heals than wards useful.....that's what they did in ToV and Shamans complained non stop, so it got changed. Druids were very strong healers in ToV because they were great at dealing with the ticking damage, but shamans complained about it and that was changed fast.”

edit because of the post about wrong thread:

my empyrean lands also does not ward for super large amounts.

10-25-2016, 03:09 PM

I knew a guy said he was getting that performance from Empyrean Lands. I never did. We never figured out what was up with that.

Knock it off with the poorly thought out and executed nerfs, guys. It's starting to feel like the learning curve is more of a sine wave.

10-25-2016, 03:13 PM

Who cares about the stupid Empyrean Lands. this is a shaman discussion. What are you guys seeing on the parse in regards to bleedthrough? I'm seeing 100% bleedthrough.

11-03-2016, 06:06 AM

I see 50% bleedthrough (half warded, half makes it through, so "warded" = "bleedthrough").
Except Runic Armor, which only wards (for me right now) 23,265 and lets hundreds of thousands through. I'm not sure if that is a problem with ACT, or if the eq2 log actually reports the entire value that isn't warded (whether because it is actually bleedthrough, or because it's just bigger than the ward) as bleedthrough

Diveris · 11-04-2016, 12:08 AM

Bleedthrough as a mechanic stinks.. buff other healers, raise hp, anything thats not a nerf is welcome.

quisling · 11-04-2016, 08:35 AM

the super heal amounts are generated by folks exploiting a bug

headbusta · 11-04-2016, 07:14 PM

The hitpoints are available for other healers to be able to solo heal, you'd just have to actually get a full group to agree that it's a good idea to stay alive (harder than you'd think). I've seen our necro that pretty consistently tops our parse over 11 mil hp in raid, which is more than I run/need to run to MT. Every tic of a druids heals are pretty much a full heal at this point, so as long as you have more hp than the dot that hits every 4-6 seconds tics for you'd be fine. It's just that most people go "well the person in the shamans group only has to run 2.1m hp to survive, so I should be able to do that too". I understand this still leaves people in shaman groups with an advantage of not having to wear max health gear, and if you add % max health to full dps gear the shaman groups will just have more hp AND wards. Since people are generally more likely to chose 89.5% multiattack than choosing to survive the encounter, the easiest way around it is to just give non-shaman their group HP buffs back like pre-ToV and buff them. Something like increases max health of group members non-tank by 55% (2.5-3 pieces of max health gear you wouldn't have to wear) and reduces incoming damage by 5%, When damaged 0.25% of the damage prevented is converted to potency for 10 seconds.

On a 3m aoe hit that would be 375 potency to the group for 10 sec, that number could of course be adjusted...just for reference. And that conversion could be something like crit bonus for clerics, potency for druids, and ability mod for channelers...

11-04-2016, 10:28 PM

Horrible example. Many necros spec high hp because it helps their dps on lifeburn.

headbusta · 11-05-2016, 01:21 AM

1) Way to miss the point of the post which is that non-shaman would be fine if their group took that into account when gearing, which yes sucks for them (that's why I listed a way to mitigate that amount of suck), but it is what it is...
2) The example is to show the fact that it's currently possible for people to get enough HP to survive in a single healer non-shaman group, not that a necro MIGHT have a reason to do it
3) Lifeburn is like 0-1% of a necro's parse anymore, so I'm not sure how many of them would spec specifically to increase their "lifeburn dps"

Mermut · 11-05-2016, 02:19 AM

As a non-shaman healer I don't want people to have to have a separate spec that is 'let me nerf my dps for hitpoints because the healing mechanics are busted and this group doesn't have a shaman'.

Malleria · 11-05-2016, 02:30 AM

Not to mention it may be easy to reach that much HP at the end of an expansion cycle when everyone has the gear. Not so much at the launch of an expansion. Non-shamans shouldn't have to wait 6 months to become useful.

headbusta · 11-05-2016, 03:11 AM

I agree which is why I actually suggested to give you guys a buff to account for the "people shouldn't have to gear accordingly if they aren't in group with a shaman".

It's all just a point of fact that druids and clerics WOULD be able to solo heal if the hitpoint pools in their group were large enough which can be demonstrated with gear available now. But you can't just put more hitpoints on gear to make the adjustment cause shaman groups would just be even more survivable. The HP buffs need to be specific to the healers that are struggling.

If the choices were get more HP on gear and be in group with a shaman still, or get more HP on gear and group with a druid...everyone would still pick a shaman. So I suggested something that would both boost the HP in your groups to allow the solo heal, as well as a dps buff component to the HP buff to balance out the desirability to heal the solo heal dps groups over a shaman.

Kari · 11-05-2016, 01:30 PM

I am not sure how my concerns about how the wards are performing with the Empryan Lands and Undying Devotion runes has turned into a thread about other heal classes, but if the mechanics stay the same all you have to do is put those two war runes on. You can go on autofollow and go get dinner or something and you will still be better than any shaman.

The superheal amounts are a bug on live but they were standard performance when we tested on beta.

quisling · 11-05-2016, 02:31 PM

Ouch

11-05-2016, 04:55 PM

I can't remember who first suggested it so I can't quote them, but if these runes can't be fixed they need to be removed from the game.

11-12-2016, 03:02 AM

Xsarinx said: ↑

“I started a post and a problem/bug report about the two warding war runes, giving ACT data quite a long time ago when it became apparent that the runes were being exploited. Investigation found that a healer who mentored to 80, zoned, and then un-mentored caused the Empyrean and Undying war runes to generate a self-replenishing group ward worth millions of HPS. A level 100 healer in 95 heroic/token gear casting no heals with the two war runes equipped could top the heal parse over a defiler/mystic wards in a ToT raid setting.

After several months, when no action was taken I then posted a ticket with all screen prints and ACT logs. The CSR informed me that the matter had been turned over to the developer and refused to answer a straight forward question on whether the chrono-trick was an exploit (as did the developer who contacted me afterwards).

All of this was followed by a fix in a fairly recent patch - although it's dubious the fix works 100% of the time on live and is non-existent in Beta.

I think after Kari's post it should be clear that the developers might want to consider:

1) reworking the bleed-through mechanic on the shaman wards so that they are reasonable and consistent, and

2) removing the Empyrean Lands and Undying Devotion from the game.”

10-23-2016, 04:40 AM	#1
Kari Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 3	I have some feedback on the shaman ward changes for the new content. The new zones appear to have a 50% bleed through on all wards. However even with the bleed through, the group ward is not warding for the expected amount. I am including some parse data from my group today as an example. The Defiler group ward Carrion Warding does not appear to be functioning properly. Although incoming damage to the tank is averaging 252K, the Carrion Warding is only averaging 33k. This is the amount that is prevented from a 15-20 million point ward that was continually maintained. When looking at the detail for Carrion warding, the heal appears to be the heal proc given by the epic weapon, and not the ward itself. There is also no bleed through effect, which is consistent with a heal rather than a ward. Here is the damage to the tank showing the average of 252K. Here is the detail on heals from Carrion Warding. Here is the average for Carrion warding at 33k per hit.

10-23-2016, 04:46 AM	#2
Kari Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 3	The reductions to wards appears to be impacting player cast wards but not the war runes. For this test we had a druid wear the Empryan Lands and Undying Devotion war runes. She did not use the chronomage exploit to bug them out, so this is the base value from normal use. She was on autofollow and did not cast a single heal spell the whole zone, but she outparsed an actively played defiler. Tsbarba is the autofollow druid with 1.8 million hps and Karianne is the actively played shaman with 800k hps. Here is the breakdown of the autofollow druid's heals, where you can see that she was not actively casting any heals, she was strictly on autofollow with the war runes equipped. Empryan Lands is warding for an average of 236K, which is more than 3 times the amount of any player cast ward. By comparison, here is the actively played defiler, where you can note the variety of wards and heals cast which had less effect than the autofollow war runes. Also each ward is preventing significantly less than half the average hit amount. You can see that with the current value of the war runes, there is no reason to actively heal.

10-23-2016, 06:08 AM	#4
ZUES Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	Kari said: ↑ “I have some feedback on the shaman ward changes for the new content. The new zones appear to have a 50% bleed through on all wards.” ---

10-25-2016, 01:00 PM	#11
Sogapa Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Sogapa said: ↑ “I have Empyrean Lands war rune on my warden and it only wards 24k. Every single time. I don't know how it's warding so much on beta, but it certainly doesn't on live if you don't monkey with stuff...... Which I found irritating when I wasted a transcendent quintescence (or w/e it's called) to make it. Back in DoV/CoE the ward was affected by potency so I thought it would actually be useful for ToT. Oh...and for those saying drastically increase hp of players while adding constant smallish incoming damage to make other types of heals than wards useful.....that's what they did in ToV and Shamans complained non stop, so it got changed. Druids were very strong healers in ToV because they were great at dealing with the ticking damage, but shamans complained about it and that was changed fast.” oops....I confused this with another thread...the top two paragraphs were intended for this thread, but not the last. I was half asleep I guess when I posted.

10-25-2016, 01:09 PM	#12
captainbeatty451 Active Member Posts: n/a	Sogapa said: ↑ “I have Empyrean Lands war rune on my warden and it only wards 24k. Every single time. I don't know how it's warding so much on beta, but it certainly doesn't on live if you don't monkey with stuff...... Which I found irritating when I wasted a transcendent quintescence (or w/e it's called) to make it. Back in DoV/CoE the ward was affected by potency so I thought it would actually be useful for ToT. Oh...and for those saying drastically increase hp of players while adding constant smallish incoming damage to make other types of heals than wards useful.....that's what they did in ToV and Shamans complained non stop, so it got changed. Druids were very strong healers in ToV because they were great at dealing with the ticking damage, but shamans complained about it and that was changed fast.” edit because of the post about wrong thread: my empyrean lands also does not ward for super large amounts.

10-23-2016, 04:50 AM	#3
Kari Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 3	We had multiple crashes in the zone, which broke up my act logs. The parses above represent about a half hour of running the repository zone, which was the longest that we lasted between crashes.

10-23-2016, 05:43 PM	#5
Xsarinx New Member Posts: n/a	I started a post and a problem/bug report about the two warding war runes, giving ACT data quite a long time ago when it became apparent that the runes were being exploited. Investigation found that a healer who mentored to 80, zoned, and then un-mentored caused the Empyrean and Undying war runes to generate a self-replenishing group ward worth millions of HPS. A level 100 healer in 95 heroic/token gear casting no heals with the two war runes equipped could top the heal parse over a defiler/mystic wards in a ToT raid setting. After several months, when no action was taken I then posted a ticket with all screen prints and ACT logs. The CSR informed me that the matter had been turned over to the developer and refused to answer a straight forward question on whether the chrono-trick was an exploit (as did the developer who contacted me afterwards). All of this was followed by a fix in a fairly recent patch - although it's dubious the fix works 100% of the time on live and is non-existent in Beta. I think after Kari's post it should be clear that the developers might want to consider: 1) reworking the bleed-through mechanic on the shaman wards so that they are reasonable and consistent, and 2) removing the Empyrean Lands and Undying Devotion from the game.

10-23-2016, 05:56 PM	#6
Kari Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 3	It was encouraging that they attempted to fix the exploit last month, even though the fix didn't actually work. However my bigger concern is that with normal usage and no exploits, they still dramatically out heal the best that I could do as an active healer. Cheaters are going to cheat, but I like to assume that the majority of players are using them as intended. If they are left in the game, they should have the same adjustments as player wards, so they retain the same relative power as intended for normal usage.

10-24-2016, 07:28 AM	#7
Fleurs Member Posts: n/a	@ Kari: I'm not sure if there is a bug or not, how much would the carrion prevent if the autofollow druid was not here? Regular amount? With the new bleed mechanic, i have to remind you of a specific ward mechanic, oldest ward goes first so, lets say: A 250k hit (with 50bleed) according to your incoming damage parse Passive rune (which is always older than a casted ward) block up to 50% of the incoming damage Empyrean block 50% of 250k : 125k goes through Undying block 50% of 125k : 62k goes through Solo ward block 50% of 62k : 31k goes through Empowered barrier block 50% of 31k: 15k goes through Carrion warding block 50% of 15k: 7k goes through This example assume you cast solo ward before groupe ward, which is all shaman does, so the tank doesn't eat up the group ward first, leaving your DPS unprotected. Not saying you are wrong, just pointing that particular mechanics so you can do deeper test, like no autofollow druid, and the shaman warding only with carrion warding. Thus carrion warding should ward first, and then ward the expected amount.

10-24-2016, 01:25 PM	#8
Kari Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 3	There is a good chance that the auto-follow druid with the runes was impacting the performance of the ward. Unfortunately our testing was cut short by about 5 crashes and then we disbanded and gave up. As far as casting order goes, our fights tend to outlast the initial casting order because the tank will continue pulling additional mobs before the mobs all die, we just end up with dying mobs being dragged along from room to room.

10-25-2016, 10:44 AM	#9
Coty Member Posts: n/a	that rune wards only for 24k according to tooltip so ... in your test the rune was bugged even if it wasnt warding for milions 250k or w.e it was warding for was bugged already. As Fleurs pointed out you cant really say its op only cuz it refreshes faster. Question is Can all healers pull through w.o the bug rune just with what they got or not. As far as i know the answer is yes, sure other classes then shamans req more work but still can do it just fine. What really needs to be done is increase the HP on tanks with at least 10 mil or decrease the Max dmg mobs can do. Problem with non-shamans is that the tanks or their group members die in 1hit and its not because they are poorly geared or anything its just becuase simply the mobs hit way harder then the max hp.

10-25-2016, 11:44 AM	#10
Sogapa Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	I have Empyrean Lands war rune on my warden and it only wards 24k. Every single time. I don't know how it's warding so much on beta, but it certainly doesn't on live if you don't monkey with stuff...... Which I found irritating when I wasted a transcendent quintescence (or w/e it's called) to make it. Back in DoV/CoE the ward was affected by potency so I thought it would actually be useful for ToT. Oh...and for those saying drastically increase hp of players while adding constant smallish incoming damage to make other types of heals than wards useful.....that's what they did in ToV and Shamans complained non stop, so it got changed. Druids were very strong healers in ToV because they were great at dealing with the ticking damage, but shamans complained about it and that was changed fast.

10-25-2016, 03:09 PM	#13
Anaogi Active Member Posts: n/a	I knew a guy said he was getting that performance from Empyrean Lands. I never did. We never figured out what was up with that. Knock it off with the poorly thought out and executed nerfs, guys. It's starting to feel like the learning curve is more of a sine wave.

10-25-2016, 03:13 PM	#14
ZUES Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	Who cares about the stupid Empyrean Lands. this is a shaman discussion. What are you guys seeing on the parse in regards to bleedthrough? I'm seeing 100% bleedthrough.

11-03-2016, 06:06 AM	#15
Hypozeuxis New Member Posts: n/a	I see 50% bleedthrough (half warded, half makes it through, so "warded" = "bleedthrough"). Except Runic Armor, which only wards (for me right now) 23,265 and lets hundreds of thousands through. I'm not sure if that is a problem with ACT, or if the eq2 log actually reports the entire value that isn't warded (whether because it is actually bleedthrough, or because it's just bigger than the ward) as bleedthrough

11-04-2016, 12:08 AM	#16
Diveris Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Bleedthrough as a mechanic stinks.. buff other healers, raise hp, anything thats not a nerf is welcome.

11-04-2016, 08:35 AM	#17
quisling Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	captainbeatty451 said: ↑ “edit because of the post about wrong thread: my empyrean lands also does not ward for super large amounts.” the super heal amounts are generated by folks exploiting a bug

11-04-2016, 07:14 PM	#18
headbusta Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	The hitpoints are available for other healers to be able to solo heal, you'd just have to actually get a full group to agree that it's a good idea to stay alive (harder than you'd think). I've seen our necro that pretty consistently tops our parse over 11 mil hp in raid, which is more than I run/need to run to MT. Every tic of a druids heals are pretty much a full heal at this point, so as long as you have more hp than the dot that hits every 4-6 seconds tics for you'd be fine. It's just that most people go "well the person in the shamans group only has to run 2.1m hp to survive, so I should be able to do that too". I understand this still leaves people in shaman groups with an advantage of not having to wear max health gear, and if you add % max health to full dps gear the shaman groups will just have more hp AND wards. Since people are generally more likely to chose 89.5% multiattack than choosing to survive the encounter, the easiest way around it is to just give non-shaman their group HP buffs back like pre-ToV and buff them. Something like increases max health of group members non-tank by 55% (2.5-3 pieces of max health gear you wouldn't have to wear) and reduces incoming damage by 5%, When damaged 0.25% of the damage prevented is converted to potency for 10 seconds. On a 3m aoe hit that would be 375 potency to the group for 10 sec, that number could of course be adjusted...just for reference. And that conversion could be something like crit bonus for clerics, potency for druids, and ability mod for channelers...

11-04-2016, 10:28 PM	#19
RescueMe Member Posts: n/a	headbusta said: ↑ “I've seen our necro that pretty consistently tops our parse over 11 mil hp in raid, which is more than I run/need to run to MT.” Horrible example. Many necros spec high hp because it helps their dps on lifeburn.

11-05-2016, 01:21 AM	#20
headbusta Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	1) Way to miss the point of the post which is that non-shaman would be fine if their group took that into account when gearing, which yes sucks for them (that's why I listed a way to mitigate that amount of suck), but it is what it is... 2) The example is to show the fact that it's currently possible for people to get enough HP to survive in a single healer non-shaman group, not that a necro MIGHT have a reason to do it 3) Lifeburn is like 0-1% of a necro's parse anymore, so I'm not sure how many of them would spec specifically to increase their "lifeburn dps"

11-05-2016, 02:19 AM	#21
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	headbusta said: ↑ “1) Way to miss the point of the post which is that non-shaman would be fine if their group took that into account when gearing, which yes sucks for them (that's why I listed a way to mitigate that amount of suck), but it is what it is... 2) The example is to show the fact that it's currently possible for people to get enough HP to survive in a single healer non-shaman group, not that a necro MIGHT have a reason to do it 3) Lifeburn is like 0-1% of a necro's parse anymore, so I'm not sure how many of them would spec specifically to increase their "lifeburn dps"” As a non-shaman healer I don't want people to have to have a separate spec that is 'let me nerf my dps for hitpoints because the healing mechanics are busted and this group doesn't have a shaman'.

11-05-2016, 02:30 AM	#22
Malleria Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Not to mention it may be easy to reach that much HP at the end of an expansion cycle when everyone has the gear. Not so much at the launch of an expansion. Non-shamans shouldn't have to wait 6 months to become useful.

11-05-2016, 03:11 AM	#23
headbusta Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	I agree which is why I actually suggested to give you guys a buff to account for the "people shouldn't have to gear accordingly if they aren't in group with a shaman". headbusta said: ↑ “The easiest way around it is to just give non-shaman their group HP buffs back like pre-ToV and buff them. Something like increases max health of group members non-tank by 55% (2.5-3 pieces of max health gear you wouldn't have to wear) and reduces incoming damage by 5%, When damaged 0.25% of the damage prevented is converted to potency for 10 seconds.” It's all just a point of fact that druids and clerics WOULD be able to solo heal if the hitpoint pools in their group were large enough which can be demonstrated with gear available now. But you can't just put more hitpoints on gear to make the adjustment cause shaman groups would just be even more survivable. The HP buffs need to be specific to the healers that are struggling. If the choices were get more HP on gear and be in group with a shaman still, or get more HP on gear and group with a druid...everyone would still pick a shaman. So I suggested something that would both boost the HP in your groups to allow the solo heal, as well as a dps buff component to the HP buff to balance out the desirability to heal the solo heal dps groups over a shaman.

11-05-2016, 01:30 PM	#24
Kari Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 3	I am not sure how my concerns about how the wards are performing with the Empryan Lands and Undying Devotion runes has turned into a thread about other heal classes, but if the mechanics stay the same all you have to do is put those two war runes on. You can go on autofollow and go get dinner or something and you will still be better than any shaman. The superheal amounts are a bug on live but they were standard performance when we tested on beta.

11-05-2016, 02:31 PM	#25
quisling Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Kari said: ↑ “The superheal amounts are a bug on live but they were standard performance when we tested on beta.” Ouch

11-05-2016, 04:55 PM	#26
Curmudgeon Member Posts: n/a	Kari said: ↑ “I am not sure how my concerns about how the wards are performing with the Empryan Lands and Undying Devotion runes has turned into a thread about other heal classes, but if the mechanics stay the same all you have to do is put those two war runes on. You can go on autofollow and go get dinner or something and you will still be better than any shaman. The superheal amounts are a bug on live but they were standard performance when we tested on beta.” I can't remember who first suggested it so I can't quote them, but if these runes can't be fixed they need to be removed from the game.

11-12-2016, 03:02 AM	#27
Sennen Active Member Posts: n/a	Curmudgeon said: ↑ “I can't remember who first suggested it so I can't quote them, but if these runes can't be fixed they need to be removed from the game.” Xsarinx said: ↑ “I started a post and a problem/bug report about the two warding war runes, giving ACT data quite a long time ago when it became apparent that the runes were being exploited. Investigation found that a healer who mentored to 80, zoned, and then un-mentored caused the Empyrean and Undying war runes to generate a self-replenishing group ward worth millions of HPS. A level 100 healer in 95 heroic/token gear casting no heals with the two war runes equipped could top the heal parse over a defiler/mystic wards in a ToT raid setting. After several months, when no action was taken I then posted a ticket with all screen prints and ACT logs. The CSR informed me that the matter had been turned over to the developer and refused to answer a straight forward question on whether the chrono-trick was an exploit (as did the developer who contacted me afterwards). All of this was followed by a fix in a fairly recent patch - although it's dubious the fix works 100% of the time on live and is non-existent in Beta. I think after Kari's post it should be clear that the developers might want to consider: 1) reworking the bleed-through mechanic on the shaman wards so that they are reasonable and consistent, and 2) removing the Empyrean Lands and Undying Devotion from the game.”