Can we please get the CB cap lifted?

10-28-2016, 10:56 PM

When it was put in, it was done to control scout autoattack DPS from becoming overinflated. Well, great job, it worked, because the Potency hyperinflation means that autoattack now makes up about 1-4% of the parse for geared raiders (it hovers around 0.8-1.2% of zonewides for my beastlord).

CB is easily capped by mages. Extremely well geared scouts can also cap it, even without the helpful prestige conversion that mages get.

There is no stat/desirability gearing difference anymore between scouts and mages - it's just "go for whatever makes your skills do more damage and IDGAF about autoattack stats at all anymore"... translation: as much POT as you can possibly get, with a moderate amount of AMOD here and there. Boring? Yep.

Mage wand autoattack will see almost the same benefits as scouts from any CB inflation, so this is no longer a class archetype balance problem. The only exception here would be the few scouts that get a statistically significant boost to their base autoattack modifier, and that's few/far between. (And if you keep the "scout autoattack gets blocked by ability casting" mechanic in place then it's still a downward forcing modifier for scouts, relative to mages.)

So, in the interest of not needing to have a continuing "prestige conversions are terrible" discussion for the next 2 years (among other problems that it has caused), can you please just remove the cap? I am fine with you continuing to scale POT much higher than CB as a control mechanism, but we've already run into the cap with last xpac's gear, and it's going to be potentially way over-capped with KA gear. It just doesn't make mathematical or logical sense to hard cap this stat anymore. Again, give us a 3:1 or 10:1 ratio of POT:CB on gear, whatever you think is appropriate, but right now there's basically no reason to ever focus on anything other than "gimme more POT", and it makes for a truly bland itemization landscape and an unsatisfying player experience.

I would prognosticate that this has been addressed in the promised "Class Balance Changes", but those seem about as likely to drop right now as another Ire-dread hammer for your raid force. (Sorry, cheap shot, I know the dev team has been working hard on this beta... I just fear that we're going to have like two weeks to actually test class balance and it's going to be woefully inadequate before it goes live.)

10-29-2016, 12:13 AM

Scout conversions have been fixed on beta, my bl is at cap standing still now over there not wearing any KA gear. So yes please lift the cap!

duckster · 10-29-2016, 12:23 AM

I suspect the prestige conversions are only the start of the class balancing.

The crit bonus cap will likely be increased to something more significant than the current 3k ceiling.

Removing it altogether would be a good step so i fully support the OP suggestion !

Monstuhr · 10-29-2016, 12:39 AM

From a priest perspective, the aa ability unyielding retribution is completely useless (increases base CB as long as you cast an offensive ability every 5s). Just sitting around on Beta with no temps (though level 10 ascension) and basically only gear from Live I am at 3k CB. Looks like the CB cap needs to be increased (or unyielding retribution needs to be changed).

10-29-2016, 02:04 AM

Talk to warlocks about a useless CB increase temp Tongue

But yeah agree 100%

Ansom · 10-29-2016, 01:07 PM

Extremely well geared scouts can also cap it?

My monk in beta with some crafted and adv solo gear, have 2,8k in fight solo.. And some armor seems to have 50cb.. (is a bug). With the new gear the white ador with 18cb are... pretty useless.

10-29-2016, 01:23 PM

Well I not sure but event with the new AA conversion , the new equipment and if they removed the CB cap, your CB will go from 2.5k to 5-6k. At the same time your potency will go from 10-12k to 15-18k and probably more.

So if your point is that your auto attack is now useless and you have to get geared as a mage, removing those cap would only double or triple your current auto attack, while at the same time your potency increase will do the same to your spells. So basically not changing anything in the long run, and you will still get geared as a mage because it'll be more efficient.

The only way would be to boost the autoattack in some way, or to change the potency/cb ration on all items for scout/tanks. So instead of having items with 1.3k potency and 50cb, having items with 1.3k cb and 50 potency.

But it is really what you want to have scouts that do 70% of their dps afk with their autoattack on, like in the past ?

10-29-2016, 01:30 PM

But of course seing scouts reforging all their dps and hast to ab mod, removing their flurry equipement to spell double casts, and needing the same gear than the mage IS a real problem.

10-29-2016, 03:11 PM

I was talking about high end TOT gear (i.e. current paradigm).

10-29-2016, 03:13 PM

Moss said: ↑

“Well I not sure but event with the new AA conversion , the new equipment and if they removed the CB cap, your CB will go from 2.5k to 5-6k. At the same time your potency will go from 10-12k to 15-18k and probably more.

So if your point is that your auto attack is now useless and you have to get geared as a mage, removing those cap would only double or triple your current auto attack, while at the same time your potency increase will do the same to your spells. So basically not changing anything in the long run, and you will still get geared as a mage because it'll be more efficient.

The only way would be to boost the autoattack in some way, or to change the potency/cb ration on all items for scout/tanks. So instead of having items with 1.3k potency and 50cb, having items with 1.3k cb and 50 potency.

But it is really what you want to have scouts that do 70% of their dps afk with their autoattack on, like in the past ?”

I believe you may have completely misunderstood the entire point of this thread.

sycla · 10-30-2016, 12:23 PM

cap is now at 4k cb..however i (and i suspect a lot of people) already have 3.5k and will hit that 4 k easily.
5k would have been ideal.

10-30-2016, 01:58 PM

Yeah, I assumed they would bump it. The point of this post was really to justify them just removing the cap entirely. They can control stat inflation through itemization and AA tweaks; I'm not sure why they don't just do that.

Even if they fully uncapped it and went back more towards the old 1:1 rough ratio of POT:CB, it's not going to dramatically affect class balance. They could certainly keep it in the rough 3:1 ratio they've created right now and we'd be fine.

TL;DR: hard caps are a sloppy way to fix problems.

10-30-2016, 04:58 PM

I fully support the idea of uncapped cb. Although focus casting would have to be adjusted to compensate. That would make warlocks OP again, and we cant have that.
But yea. Uncap CB.

10-30-2016, 07:07 PM

The only other Final Ability Damage related stat that is hardcapped is Fervor*, and they could probably just do away with that cap too. ACHIEVE BALANCE THROUGH YOUR ITEMIZATION PLEASE. Tks.

(*Yes, AMOD is as well. However, they haven't let us get close enough to the cap on the good spells for that to even matter. Keeping that stat capped allows them to prevent softer hitting spells from getting out of control. Probably the one example of where hard caps DO make sense, because of uneven base damages across the spell library.)

10-31-2016, 08:26 AM

Even with uncapped cb, focused casting would not be as strong as it was in AoM. But I agree it would inflate 30 second parses so if they did decide to uncap cb they should lower the reuse of focused casting and lower the spike ability of it linear with the lower reuse. Removing cb cap is wishful thinking.

10-31-2016, 05:20 PM

There's no need to keep a hard cap in place because it might overpower a single class - just tweak FC to keep warlocks balanced.

We're all going to slam right into the 4K cap on about week 4 of the xpac, if not earlier, depending on prestige spec. For the love of god just uncap it and tweak the few things around it that need to be handled.

10-31-2016, 06:42 PM

Question, If they changed BL's AA line, and made your right side conversion completely useless and horrible. At that point you are forced to use left side, and they some how changed all other classes' good AA tree to right side aligning with pot->cb conversion.

so you will be dangling between 1.5k cb or a useable aa tree... which will you choose? raising cb cap more?

just curious no criticism =)

10-31-2016, 06:58 PM

Ranger will specc left side unless there's an awfull AE Encounter in the Raidzones.

10-31-2016, 07:09 PM

Myself will prob stick with useable AA. By choose I kinda meant would you still recommend cb cap increase if forced to do left?
People who do left side is already 1.2-1.5k cb down and that is not easily overcome by gears. However seeing a class already doing right side and crying for cb cap lift, this almost sounds like people making top 1 percentile income wanting lower tax rate so they can make even more money, well, not going political, just saying. Capping some stats just mean you look for increase in other stats and reforge out of the capped stats, and give other people chance to catch up.

11-04-2016, 03:58 PM

So now do people finally see that stat inflation is a huge no no?. The only two stats that people are paying attention to are Pot/AM.

800 Potency on any single item is just insane.. This would be a GREAT time to uncap/redo all of the other stats in the game and consider this expac as a huge reset. The Proc items are absolutely ridiculous. Every time I read a post about boosting CB cap I can't help but wonder why in the hell stats are this inflated to begin with.

The stat changes you see from AoM to Beta could have been dragged out for years. So, with the current stat inflation devs, where do you see the game in 5 years?

When will these lag inducing procs be scrapped (Originally planned during ToV stat reworks)?

I won't complain about Solo

11-04-2016, 05:04 PM

+1 to this
My pot->cb conversion is on my bad side so god knows when/if i'll ever CB even at 4k.

11-04-2016, 06:06 PM

Rather than making content obsolete by increasing level cap every major xpac, they seem to be doing it through exponential stat inflation instead. Until they go back to a level cap increase methodology, we are going to be doomed to non-linear growth in these numbers. There's no other way around it from a mechanics perspective.

The other alternative is they keep adding new stats like fervor that provide additIonal multipliers. With enough of them, you only need to scale each stat by 10-20% each xpac and you end up with a doubling+ of final ability damage pretty quickly.

I'm not sure why they got away from the idea of level cap increases.

11-04-2016, 06:22 PM

I really wish we had a level increase. I like the sense of accomplishment from gaining new levels, abilities, and achievements.

10-29-2016, 02:04 AM	#5
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	Monstuhr said: ↑ “From a priest perspective, the aa ability unyielding retribution is completely useless (increases base CB as long as you cast an offensive ability every 5s). Just sitting around on Beta with no temps (though level 10 ascension) and basically only gear from Live I am at 3k CB. Looks like the CB cap needs to be increased (or unyielding retribution needs to be changed).” Talk to warlocks about a useless CB increase temp But yeah agree 100%

10-29-2016, 03:11 PM	#9
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	Ansom said: ↑ “Extremely well geared scouts can also cap it? My monk in beta with some crafted and adv solo gear, have 2,8k in fight solo.. And some armor seems to have 50cb.. (is a bug). With the new gear the white ador with 18cb are... pretty useless.” I was talking about high end TOT gear (i.e. current paradigm).

10-29-2016, 03:13 PM	#10
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	Moss said: ↑ “Well I not sure but event with the new AA conversion , the new equipment and if they removed the CB cap, your CB will go from 2.5k to 5-6k. At the same time your potency will go from 10-12k to 15-18k and probably more. So if your point is that your auto attack is now useless and you have to get geared as a mage, removing those cap would only double or triple your current auto attack, while at the same time your potency increase will do the same to your spells. So basically not changing anything in the long run, and you will still get geared as a mage because it'll be more efficient. The only way would be to boost the autoattack in some way, or to change the potency/cb ration on all items for scout/tanks. So instead of having items with 1.3k potency and 50cb, having items with 1.3k cb and 50 potency. But it is really what you want to have scouts that do 70% of their dps afk with their autoattack on, like in the past ?” I believe you may have completely misunderstood the entire point of this thread.

10-30-2016, 01:58 PM	#12
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	sycla said: ↑ “cap is now at 4k cb..however i (and i suspect a lot of people) already have 3.5k and will hit that 4 k easily. 5k would have been ideal.” Yeah, I assumed they would bump it. The point of this post was really to justify them just removing the cap entirely. They can control stat inflation through itemization and AA tweaks; I'm not sure why they don't just do that. Even if they fully uncapped it and went back more towards the old 1:1 rough ratio of POT:CB, it's not going to dramatically affect class balance. They could certainly keep it in the rough 3:1 ratio they've created right now and we'd be fine. TL;DR: hard caps are a sloppy way to fix problems.

10-30-2016, 07:07 PM	#14
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	Pitta said: ↑ “I fully support the idea of uncapped cb. Although focus casting would have to be adjusted to compensate. That would make warlocks OP again, and we cant have that. But yea. Uncap CB.” The only other Final Ability Damage related stat that is hardcapped is Fervor, and they could probably just do away with that cap too. ACHIEVE BALANCE THROUGH YOUR ITEMIZATION PLEASE. Tks. (Yes, AMOD is as well. However, they haven't let us get close enough to the cap on the good spells for that to even matter. Keeping that stat capped allows them to prevent softer hitting spells from getting out of control. Probably the one example of where hard caps DO make sense, because of uneven base damages across the spell library.)

10-28-2016, 10:56 PM	#1
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	When it was put in, it was done to control scout autoattack DPS from becoming overinflated. Well, great job, it worked, because the Potency hyperinflation means that autoattack now makes up about 1-4% of the parse for geared raiders (it hovers around 0.8-1.2% of zonewides for my beastlord). CB is easily capped by mages. Extremely well geared scouts can also cap it, even without the helpful prestige conversion that mages get. There is no stat/desirability gearing difference anymore between scouts and mages - it's just "go for whatever makes your skills do more damage and IDGAF about autoattack stats at all anymore"... translation: as much POT as you can possibly get, with a moderate amount of AMOD here and there. Boring? Yep. Mage wand autoattack will see almost the same benefits as scouts from any CB inflation, so this is no longer a class archetype balance problem. The only exception here would be the few scouts that get a statistically significant boost to their base autoattack modifier, and that's few/far between. (And if you keep the "scout autoattack gets blocked by ability casting" mechanic in place then it's still a downward forcing modifier for scouts, relative to mages.) So, in the interest of not needing to have a continuing "prestige conversions are terrible" discussion for the next 2 years (among other problems that it has caused), can you please just remove the cap? I am fine with you continuing to scale POT much higher than CB as a control mechanism, but we've already run into the cap with last xpac's gear, and it's going to be potentially way over-capped with KA gear. It just doesn't make mathematical or logical sense to hard cap this stat anymore. Again, give us a 3:1 or 10:1 ratio of POT:CB on gear, whatever you think is appropriate, but right now there's basically no reason to ever focus on anything other than "gimme more POT", and it makes for a truly bland itemization landscape and an unsatisfying player experience. I would prognosticate that this has been addressed in the promised "Class Balance Changes", but those seem about as likely to drop right now as another Ire-dread hammer for your raid force. (Sorry, cheap shot, I know the dev team has been working hard on this beta... I just fear that we're going to have like two weeks to actually test class balance and it's going to be woefully inadequate before it goes live.)

10-29-2016, 12:13 AM	#2
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	Scout conversions have been fixed on beta, my bl is at cap standing still now over there not wearing any KA gear. So yes please lift the cap!

10-29-2016, 12:23 AM	#3
duckster Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	I suspect the prestige conversions are only the start of the class balancing. The crit bonus cap will likely be increased to something more significant than the current 3k ceiling. Removing it altogether would be a good step so i fully support the OP suggestion !

10-29-2016, 12:39 AM	#4
Monstuhr Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	From a priest perspective, the aa ability unyielding retribution is completely useless (increases base CB as long as you cast an offensive ability every 5s). Just sitting around on Beta with no temps (though level 10 ascension) and basically only gear from Live I am at 3k CB. Looks like the CB cap needs to be increased (or unyielding retribution needs to be changed).

10-29-2016, 01:07 PM	#6
Ansom Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 1	Extremely well geared scouts can also cap it? My monk in beta with some crafted and adv solo gear, have 2,8k in fight solo.. And some armor seems to have 50cb.. (is a bug). With the new gear the white ador with 18cb are... pretty useless.

10-29-2016, 01:23 PM	#7
Moss New Member Posts: n/a	Well I not sure but event with the new AA conversion , the new equipment and if they removed the CB cap, your CB will go from 2.5k to 5-6k. At the same time your potency will go from 10-12k to 15-18k and probably more. So if your point is that your auto attack is now useless and you have to get geared as a mage, removing those cap would only double or triple your current auto attack, while at the same time your potency increase will do the same to your spells. So basically not changing anything in the long run, and you will still get geared as a mage because it'll be more efficient. The only way would be to boost the autoattack in some way, or to change the potency/cb ration on all items for scout/tanks. So instead of having items with 1.3k potency and 50cb, having items with 1.3k cb and 50 potency. But it is really what you want to have scouts that do 70% of their dps afk with their autoattack on, like in the past ?

10-29-2016, 01:30 PM	#8
Moss New Member Posts: n/a	But of course seing scouts reforging all their dps and hast to ab mod, removing their flurry equipement to spell double casts, and needing the same gear than the mage IS a real problem.

10-30-2016, 12:23 PM	#11
sycla New Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	cap is now at 4k cb..however i (and i suspect a lot of people) already have 3.5k and will hit that 4 k easily. 5k would have been ideal.

10-30-2016, 04:58 PM	#13
Pitta Member Posts: n/a	I fully support the idea of uncapped cb. Although focus casting would have to be adjusted to compensate. That would make warlocks OP again, and we cant have that. But yea. Uncap CB.

10-31-2016, 08:26 AM	#15
Yards Member Posts: n/a	Pitta said: ↑ “I fully support the idea of uncapped cb. Although focus casting would have to be adjusted to compensate. That would make warlocks OP again, and we cant have that. But yea. Uncap CB.” Even with uncapped cb, focused casting would not be as strong as it was in AoM. But I agree it would inflate 30 second parses so if they did decide to uncap cb they should lower the reuse of focused casting and lower the spike ability of it linear with the lower reuse. Removing cb cap is wishful thinking.

10-31-2016, 05:20 PM	#16
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	There's no need to keep a hard cap in place because it might overpower a single class - just tweak FC to keep warlocks balanced. We're all going to slam right into the 4K cap on about week 4 of the xpac, if not earlier, depending on prestige spec. For the love of god just uncap it and tweak the few things around it that need to be handled.

10-31-2016, 06:42 PM	#17
Xavkiz New Member Posts: n/a	Question, If they changed BL's AA line, and made your right side conversion completely useless and horrible. At that point you are forced to use left side, and they some how changed all other classes' good AA tree to right side aligning with pot->cb conversion. so you will be dangling between 1.5k cb or a useable aa tree... which will you choose? raising cb cap more? just curious no criticism =)

10-31-2016, 06:58 PM	#18
CSP84 Member Posts: n/a	Xavkiz said: ↑ “Question, If they changed BL's AA line, and made your right side conversion completely useless and horrible. At that point you are forced to use left side, and they some how changed all other classes' good AA tree to right side aligning with pot->cb conversion. so you will be dangling between 1.5k cb or a useable aa tree... which will you choose? raising cb cap more? just curious no criticism =)” Ranger will specc left side unless there's an awfull AE Encounter in the Raidzones.

10-31-2016, 07:09 PM	#19
Xavkiz New Member Posts: n/a	Myself will prob stick with useable AA. By choose I kinda meant would you still recommend cb cap increase if forced to do left? People who do left side is already 1.2-1.5k cb down and that is not easily overcome by gears. However seeing a class already doing right side and crying for cb cap lift, this almost sounds like people making top 1 percentile income wanting lower tax rate so they can make even more money, well, not going political, just saying. Capping some stats just mean you look for increase in other stats and reforge out of the capped stats, and give other people chance to catch up.

11-04-2016, 03:58 PM	#20
Tigerr Active Member Posts: n/a	So now do people finally see that stat inflation is a huge no no?. The only two stats that people are paying attention to are Pot/AM. 800 Potency on any single item is just insane.. This would be a GREAT time to uncap/redo all of the other stats in the game and consider this expac as a huge reset. The Proc items are absolutely ridiculous. Every time I read a post about boosting CB cap I can't help but wonder why in the hell stats are this inflated to begin with. The stat changes you see from AoM to Beta could have been dragged out for years. So, with the current stat inflation devs, where do you see the game in 5 years? When will these lag inducing procs be scrapped (Originally planned during ToV stat reworks)? I won't complain about Solo

11-04-2016, 05:04 PM	#21
kluxor Active Member Posts: n/a	Xavkiz said: ↑ “Question, If they changed BL's AA line, and made your right side conversion completely useless and horrible. At that point you are forced to use left side, and they some how changed all other classes' good AA tree to right side aligning with pot->cb conversion. so you will be dangling between 1.5k cb or a useable aa tree... which will you choose? raising cb cap more? just curious no criticism =)” +1 to this My pot->cb conversion is on my bad side so god knows when/if i'll ever CB even at 4k.

11-04-2016, 06:06 PM	#22
Entropy Active Member Posts: n/a	Tigerr said: ↑ “. So, with the current stat inflation devs, where do you see the game in 5 years?” Rather than making content obsolete by increasing level cap every major xpac, they seem to be doing it through exponential stat inflation instead. Until they go back to a level cap increase methodology, we are going to be doomed to non-linear growth in these numbers. There's no other way around it from a mechanics perspective. The other alternative is they keep adding new stats like fervor that provide additIonal multipliers. With enough of them, you only need to scale each stat by 10-20% each xpac and you end up with a doubling+ of final ability damage pretty quickly. I'm not sure why they got away from the idea of level cap increases.

11-04-2016, 06:22 PM	#23
Mandoblast New Member Posts: n/a	I really wish we had a level increase. I like the sense of accomplishment from gaining new levels, abilities, and achievements.