Evil healers (Inqusitor and Defiler) Weaker than Good Healers??..

YummiOger · 11-12-2004, 07:55 PM

After studying the spell lists and ability lists for Post LV 20 ( much like the thread on the "Preist" main board), I have a feeling that the Evil Preist classes native to Freeport start to seriously deminish, after say Lv 30?, in Healing / Buffing (main role of Preist?) in comparision to the Good Templar and Mystic of Qeynos. This is very sad also becuas i was wanting to start a Freeport preist class. how ever i want to like my class at later Lvs also, im thinking Long term. Comments?...

Also the mentioned thread above ( Comparision of Preist Classes) on the Preist main board is VERY good .. it should be a sticky i think ..

Good Luck All ..

Yummy

DarkCha · 11-12-2004, 10:02 PM

I will be very disappointed if this is true :robotsad:

Troy Spir · 11-14-2004, 11:06 AM

Being a sort of "necromatic/psycho healer" we have to expect not to be as good of "pure healers" as the goodie healers whos total focus is specifically on being the good little healer.

Lug · 11-14-2004, 07:42 PM

The core heals and reactive heals for inquis/templar are exactly the same.

Zerpentor · 11-16-2004, 08:48 PM

not true

Templar
20 - Amending Fate - spell that heals the group when the target dies
22 - Battle's Reprieve - Combat rez
26 - Supplicant's prayer - Reactive heal
28 - Healing Touch - Group instant heal
29 - Amelioration - Upgrade to Combat Healing
32 - Restoration - Instant heal + noxious cure
34 - Redemptive fate - Heals group when enemy dies
35 - Involuntary healer - can cure trauma and heal when hit
40 - Greater Intercession - Instant heal + can increase AC when hit
41 - Harmony - Hate reducer + heal
41 - Salvation - Prevents death + heal + power regen
42 - crucial Intercession - Group reactive heal
43 - Word of Restoration - Group heal
43 - Greater Amelioration - Instant heal and offense buff
46 - Greater Restoration - Instant heal that can cure minor Noxious effects
47 - Glory of Combat - Buff that gives a change to heal the party on each succesful attack
48 - Atoning Fate - Heals group when target dies
49 - Involuntary Curate - Can cure trauma and heal when target is hit
50 - Focused Benefaction - Reactive heal

Inquisitor
25 - Favor of the repentant - Reactive heal
28 - Contrite Grace - Group reactive heal
29 - Minister Wounds - Upgrade to Combat Healing
30 - Penitent's Sermon - Group heal
32 - Dogmatic Healing - Instant heal + haste
41 - Redemption - Prevents death + heal + HP buff
41 - Stinging Penance - Reactive heal + Divine DD
42 - Scolding alleviation - Group heal
42 - Faithful Ministration - Instant heal + offense buff
42 - Salutary diatribe - Group reactive heal
46 - Intolerant Healing - Group heal + haste

11 heals for the Inquisitor and 18 for the Templar

the last reactive single target heal we get is at 41, where the templars get it at 50 which is probably pretty nice.

Message Edited by Zerpentor on 11-16-2004 07:56 AM

Melif · 11-16-2004, 10:20 PM

Well, if it turns out that the evil healers' debuffs and whatever else we get, doesn't compensate for the lack of equitable healing that the goodies get, I'm sure SOE will tweak us to be more in line with goodie healers.

Only time will tell.

Amsel_McKay · 11-16-2004, 11:34 PM

We as Inqusitors should not need to heal as much this is because if you debuff a mob it hits less and our friend kill faster, thus less heals needed. Problem is most inqusitors only heal they need to start debuffing.

Kick · 11-17-2004, 12:23 AM

Well i just hit 20 yesterday and sure i get debuffs but even with the debuffs you still got to spam heals to keep the tank alive. Also you cant forget mana being spent on the debuffs. You sure as hell dont want to waste all of your mana just casting debuffs got to keep the tank alive. Then again i just a mana sink right now couse all of my heals are adept now. I still need a few more lvl's befor i have anof mana to keep up.

Lut · 11-17-2004, 01:14 AM

The next time you will say i am weaker than a dorkish templar, is the time i will introduce my mace to your face.

Any questions?

Thro · 11-17-2004, 11:26 PM

I must admit, I do not know about the evil versus good classes per se, but it does seem like good gets the more priest preferred racial biases.

For instance, High Elves are the only race to begin with 30 wisdom . . . good only. Dwarves, another great priest race because of their high wisdom (25, second highest to 30) and high stamina and strength (25 and 22 respectively), good only.

Gunny1 · 11-18-2004, 01:31 AM

I played a Templar to 40 in beta and now im a 21 Inquisitor. Inquisitor's are going to be better. You are counting all the Amending fate spells that Templar's get. These spells are crap. They are not worth casting. But our Inquisitor debuff spells are worth it. The less dmg that the tank takes is a huge help in a battle. Where the Templar uses his mana for Amending fate for a less powerfull after the fight group heal when he could of just saved the mana for a real group heal that heals more pts.

Dub · 11-18-2004, 02:47 AM

Glad to hear this. As an evil cleric, I have begun to worry a little about my chosen path.

My other fear is that I chose a Kerran, and their wis stats were not so great. I definitely find myself running out of power on many occassions, but frankly, I can handle the healing in any balanced group. Hopefully I can get enough items to improve wis and power that this will not be a long term problem.

Fera · 11-18-2004, 06:11 PM

I was thinking long for what race i wanted to do, i love iksars but for healer class, they had worst start wisdom 15. I ended but tho doing an iksar cleric and currently i dont find it too hard to keep group up on even big pulls. Wisdom currently at lvl 16 i have 53 and power 397 if i remember correctly. Dunno is that low but works for me SMILEY

Only times i get problems on loosing too much power is if i have to use lot of direct heals which eat the most mana

Owlbe · 11-18-2004, 11:08 PM

Iksars have a start wisdom of 22 not 15.

The eq2 manual is wrong is you were using that as a resource for race starts.

Decimat · 11-19-2004, 03:26 AM

I find the debuffs quite usefull. There are times when fighting double up greens in FG, when the tank would of course need to be healed. After a round of debuffs though, no healing need be done. Also, on the double up yellows we were fighting, debuffs helped quite a bit, and all mine are app1.(haven't seen an inquis adept yet, and none of the scholars I know can craft lvl 20+ spells)

As for Defiler being weaker than mystic, I don't suppose you have seen slow in action? SMILEY

Pog · 11-22-2004, 10:33 PM

It really does come down to the debuffs. The debuffs will need to be considerably stronger than the equivilent buffs as they need to be cast in combat, will draw aggro, and have a chance to resist/interrupt. The inquisitor will be harder to play (more to do in battle) but when played well should be more effective. The templar will be easier to play (more down-time buffs and a wider array of heals). Ideally it should work like this: Good Inquisitor > Good Templar > Bad Templar > Bad Inquisitor.The problem, however, is likely to be one of perception. It's easier to see the effect of a big heal or even a buff ("ooh, I'm hitting for XXX now") than a debuff, even if the overall effect is the same. And the fact that you will need to play the class well (and not just sit back and heal) will influence people's perceptions, especially when they meet inquisitors that don't use their full range of powers or groups that insist that you "don't debuff, just heal!".City of Heroes had an equivilent balance, with the Empathy Defender having a huge range of heals and the Radiation Defender (for example) having a more offensive set of debuffs. At one stage people were only interested in how much you could heal, but as the levels progressed the smarter players found that the debuffs could max their kill rate far better than the heals could. It might go the same way here.Ultimately, though, the thing that swings it for me is that active participation in battles (mixing heals with debuffs) is far more fun than passive participation (buffs in down-time, heals in battle). If all you want to do is watch buff timers and spam the heal button then choose Templar, but in this case I think the bad guys will be having more fun SMILEY

Orkot · 11-23-2004, 08:58 AM

So far as a 20th level Delfiler I've figured out that are heals may not be that strong but then again they don't have to be. I use my runes to hold off any damage and use my small heals to top off the tanks. So far this seems very effective. Also as a bonus there is little to no aggro from casting rune on the main tank repeatedly either....

Durm · 11-23-2004, 06:28 PM

As a mid-20's inquisitor I see both good and bad.The good- Debuffs seem to work very well.- I can generally serve as the sole healer in a full, well-balanced group.- The direct healing spells are adequate and the reactive heals are great.The bad- Long casting time for some heals limits their use sometimes.- Need more instant heals. I thought EQ had it right; 1 single-target insta and 1 group insta.- Debuffs tend to draw a lot more aggro than heals.- Debuffs are too expensive to cast when fighting multiple targets. Most debuffs are single-target, which is great against those singleton yellow^^ mobs, but useless against a group of 4 or 5 white/yellow normal mobs.- The results of debuffs are hard to see. It would be nice if there were a message associated with the debuffs that groupmembers could see (eg: Player casts "Iniquity" and reduces "A Tier Dal Mage's" AC by 252)- Lack of Adept I/App III spells for the high teen priest spells (other than Arch Healing). Hopefully This will change as more people level up, but I have yet to see a single Inquisitor (L20+) Adept I.

11-12-2004, 07:55 PM	#1
YummiOger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: School of Hard Knocks Posts: 437	After studying the spell lists and ability lists for Post LV 20 ( much like the thread on the "Preist" main board), I have a feeling that the Evil Preist classes native to Freeport start to seriously deminish, after say Lv 30?, in Healing / Buffing (main role of Preist?) in comparision to the Good Templar and Mystic of Qeynos. This is very sad also becuas i was wanting to start a Freeport preist class. how ever i want to like my class at later Lvs also, im thinking Long term. Comments?... Also the mentioned thread above ( Comparision of Preist Classes) on the Preist main board is VERY good .. it should be a sticky i think .. Good Luck All .. Yummy __________________ Smashin' noobs sense 2004, Yaahh Yuuhh!!

11-12-2004, 10:02 PM	#2
DarkCha Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	I will be very disappointed if this is true :robotsad: __________________ Inquisitor Ilion Warkock Kajah Innothule Server

11-16-2004, 10:20 PM	#6
Melif Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Well, if it turns out that the evil healers' debuffs and whatever else we get, doesn't compensate for the lack of equitable healing that the goodies get, I'm sure SOE will tweak us to be more in line with goodie healers. Only time will tell. __________________

11-18-2004, 06:11 PM	#13
Fera Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10	I was thinking long for what race i wanted to do, i love iksars but for healer class, they had worst start wisdom 15. I ended but tho doing an iksar cleric and currently i dont find it too hard to keep group up on even big pulls. Wisdom currently at lvl 16 i have 53 and power 397 if i remember correctly. Dunno is that low but works for me Only times i get problems on loosing too much power is if i have to use lot of direct heals which eat the most mana

11-18-2004, 11:08 PM	#14
Owlbe General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Great White North Posts: 350	Iksars have a start wisdom of 22 not 15. The eq2 manual is wrong is you were using that as a resource for race starts. __________________ Arkoril Raventhorn- Iksar Fury Gunnulf Ravenrune- Barbarian Mystic Asheda Soulscar- Kerra Bruiser

11-14-2004, 11:06 AM	#3
Troy Spir Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	Being a sort of "necromatic/psycho healer" we have to expect not to be as good of "pure healers" as the goodie healers whos total focus is specifically on being the good little healer.

11-14-2004, 07:42 PM	#4
Lug Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	The core heals and reactive heals for inquis/templar are exactly the same.

11-16-2004, 08:48 PM	#5
Zerpentor Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	not true Templar 20 - Amending Fate - spell that heals the group when the target dies 22 - Battle's Reprieve - Combat rez 26 - Supplicant's prayer - Reactive heal 28 - Healing Touch - Group instant heal 29 - Amelioration - Upgrade to Combat Healing 32 - Restoration - Instant heal + noxious cure 34 - Redemptive fate - Heals group when enemy dies 35 - Involuntary healer - can cure trauma and heal when hit 40 - Greater Intercession - Instant heal + can increase AC when hit 41 - Harmony - Hate reducer + heal 41 - Salvation - Prevents death + heal + power regen 42 - crucial Intercession - Group reactive heal 43 - Word of Restoration - Group heal 43 - Greater Amelioration - Instant heal and offense buff 46 - Greater Restoration - Instant heal that can cure minor Noxious effects 47 - Glory of Combat - Buff that gives a change to heal the party on each succesful attack 48 - Atoning Fate - Heals group when target dies 49 - Involuntary Curate - Can cure trauma and heal when target is hit 50 - Focused Benefaction - Reactive heal Inquisitor 25 - Favor of the repentant - Reactive heal 28 - Contrite Grace - Group reactive heal 29 - Minister Wounds - Upgrade to Combat Healing 30 - Penitent's Sermon - Group heal 32 - Dogmatic Healing - Instant heal + haste 41 - Redemption - Prevents death + heal + HP buff 41 - Stinging Penance - Reactive heal + Divine DD 42 - Scolding alleviation - Group heal 42 - Faithful Ministration - Instant heal + offense buff 42 - Salutary diatribe - Group reactive heal 46 - Intolerant Healing - Group heal + haste 11 heals for the Inquisitor and 18 for the Templar the last reactive single target heal we get is at 41, where the templars get it at 50 which is probably pretty nice. Message Edited by Zerpentor on 11-16-2004 07:56 AM

11-16-2004, 11:34 PM	#7
Amsel_McKay Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5	We as Inqusitors should not need to heal as much this is because if you debuff a mob it hits less and our friend kill faster, thus less heals needed. Problem is most inqusitors only heal they need to start debuffing.

11-17-2004, 12:23 AM	#8
Kick Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	Well i just hit 20 yesterday and sure i get debuffs but even with the debuffs you still got to spam heals to keep the tank alive. Also you cant forget mana being spent on the debuffs. You sure as hell dont want to waste all of your mana just casting debuffs got to keep the tank alive. Then again i just a mana sink right now couse all of my heals are adept now. I still need a few more lvl's befor i have anof mana to keep up.

11-17-2004, 01:14 AM	#9
Lut Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	The next time you will say i am weaker than a dorkish templar, is the time i will introduce my mace to your face. Any questions?

11-17-2004, 11:26 PM	#10
Thro Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 21	I must admit, I do not know about the evil versus good classes per se, but it does seem like good gets the more priest preferred racial biases. For instance, High Elves are the only race to begin with 30 wisdom . . . good only. Dwarves, another great priest race because of their high wisdom (25, second highest to 30) and high stamina and strength (25 and 22 respectively), good only.

11-18-2004, 01:31 AM	#11
Gunny1 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 11	I played a Templar to 40 in beta and now im a 21 Inquisitor. Inquisitor's are going to be better. You are counting all the Amending fate spells that Templar's get. These spells are crap. They are not worth casting. But our Inquisitor debuff spells are worth it. The less dmg that the tank takes is a huge help in a battle. Where the Templar uses his mana for Amending fate for a less powerfull after the fight group heal when he could of just saved the mana for a real group heal that heals more pts.

11-18-2004, 02:47 AM	#12
Dub Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	Glad to hear this. As an evil cleric, I have begun to worry a little about my chosen path. My other fear is that I chose a Kerran, and their wis stats were not so great. I definitely find myself running out of power on many occassions, but frankly, I can handle the healing in any balanced group. Hopefully I can get enough items to improve wis and power that this will not be a long term problem.

11-19-2004, 03:26 AM	#15
Decimat General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 184	I find the debuffs quite usefull. There are times when fighting double up greens in FG, when the tank would of course need to be healed. After a round of debuffs though, no healing need be done. Also, on the double up yellows we were fighting, debuffs helped quite a bit, and all mine are app1.(haven't seen an inquis adept yet, and none of the scholars I know can craft lvl 20+ spells) As for Defiler being weaker than mystic, I don't suppose you have seen slow in action? __________________

11-22-2004, 10:33 PM	#16
Pog Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	It really does come down to the debuffs. The debuffs will need to be considerably stronger than the equivilent buffs as they need to be cast in combat, will draw aggro, and have a chance to resist/interrupt. The inquisitor will be harder to play (more to do in battle) but when played well should be more effective. The templar will be easier to play (more down-time buffs and a wider array of heals). Ideally it should work like this: Good Inquisitor > Good Templar > Bad Templar > Bad Inquisitor.The problem, however, is likely to be one of perception. It's easier to see the effect of a big heal or even a buff ("ooh, I'm hitting for XXX now") than a debuff, even if the overall effect is the same. And the fact that you will need to play the class well (and not just sit back and heal) will influence people's perceptions, especially when they meet inquisitors that don't use their full range of powers or groups that insist that you "don't debuff, just heal!".City of Heroes had an equivilent balance, with the Empathy Defender having a huge range of heals and the Radiation Defender (for example) having a more offensive set of debuffs. At one stage people were only interested in how much you could heal, but as the levels progressed the smarter players found that the debuffs could max their kill rate far better than the heals could. It might go the same way here.Ultimately, though, the thing that swings it for me is that active participation in battles (mixing heals with debuffs) is far more fun than passive participation (buffs in down-time, heals in battle). If all you want to do is watch buff timers and spam the heal button then choose Templar, but in this case I think the bad guys will be having more fun __________________

11-23-2004, 08:58 AM	#17
Orkot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	So far as a 20th level Delfiler I've figured out that are heals may not be that strong but then again they don't have to be. I use my runes to hold off any damage and use my small heals to top off the tanks. So far this seems very effective. Also as a bonus there is little to no aggro from casting rune on the main tank repeatedly either....

11-23-2004, 06:28 PM	#18
Durm Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	As a mid-20's inquisitor I see both good and bad.The good- Debuffs seem to work very well.- I can generally serve as the sole healer in a full, well-balanced group.- The direct healing spells are adequate and the reactive heals are great.The bad- Long casting time for some heals limits their use sometimes.- Need more instant heals. I thought EQ had it right; 1 single-target insta and 1 group insta.- Debuffs tend to draw a lot more aggro than heals.- Debuffs are too expensive to cast when fighting multiple targets. Most debuffs are single-target, which is great against those singleton yellow^^ mobs, but useless against a group of 4 or 5 white/yellow normal mobs.- The results of debuffs are hard to see. It would be nice if there were a message associated with the debuffs that groupmembers could see (eg: Player casts "Iniquity" and reduces "A Tier Dal Mage's" AC by 252)- Lack of Adept I/App III spells for the high teen priest spells (other than Arch Healing). Hopefully This will change as more people level up, but I have yet to see a single Inquisitor (L20+) Adept I.