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Old 05-29-2010, 07:42 PM   #31
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Axterix wrote:

Another possibility would be the equivelant of the priests' ability to summon food and drink.  Free arrows, but crappy.

They tried that with makeshift arrows, the only problem was the arrows were so inferior to crafted arrows and even vendor bought arrows it wasn't worth it to use except when leveling really.

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Old 05-29-2010, 08:24 PM   #32
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FYI it costs 3g12s to make a stack of T9 arrows, if you harvest what you need and buy the fuel.

Guy De Alsace wrote:

So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass.

Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play -  which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.

If you are really saying you would take a negative just so you can be unique, that's just dumb. Would you cut off your nose to spite your face too?

Saying we would be like other classes if we didn't have to pay for auto attack is just ridiculous. The fact that some of our best performing CA's are melee, opposed to our ranged CA's being better than ALL our melee, does make us more like other scout classes though.

Everything other scouts have to buy we have to buy too, plus we go through way more arrows than they do. So any argument from the stance other scouts have to pay for stuff too comes from ignorance. We do save some money on poisons with conservation but it doesn't make up for how much we spend on arrows.

Summoned makeshift arrows were abysmal. Compared to other arrows in the same tier they were always the absolute worst arrows you could use. Even vendor bought ones were better.

My main problem with it is we have to pay, and we aren't even on par with the other top DPS classes. Wouldn't be much a problem if we were. Same thing with the other mechanical faults we have like not using auto AE or flurry. If we were on par with DPS they would just be annoyances but since rangers are behind the problems are viewed as much worse.

Every minor problem rangers have is going to be focused on and magnified, even blown out of proportion until we are balanced properly, or at least close to it.

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Old 05-29-2010, 08:26 PM   #33
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Guy De Alsace wrote:

So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass.

Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play -  which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.

I would have no problem paying for it if it was worth the price, but seeing as how rangers do less DPS then assassins and sorcs, offer less utility, and still have to pay to do it, well then it just isn't fair anymore.  Personally I would rather see them keep us having to use arrows, but make it actually worthwhile IE we are equal if not slightly ahead of the other classes we are supposed to be competing against

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Old 05-29-2010, 08:35 PM   #34
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Guy De Alsace wrote:

So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass.

Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play -  which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.

Obvious non-ranger troll is obvious.

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Old 05-29-2010, 08:43 PM   #35
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Guy De Alsace wrote:

So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass.

Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play -  which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.

Since when does class balance mean that every class is the same? Those are two different things you're conflating there. Bottom line, ammo management does not have any place in an MMO, UNLESS it is something that every single class uses roughly equally, and therefore every single class bears the expense. That doesn't mean every single class is the same. Rangers not having to pay for arrows isn't changing anything the ranger does, or any flavor of the class. Please drop the ridiculous hyperbole.

Having to pay for ammunition as your primary source of damage is unbalanced, whether you're paying 1c or 3pp. Having to pay for it when you are doing half the damage of other DPS classes is insult on top of injury. The end.

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Old 05-29-2010, 10:43 PM   #36
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People play this game for many reasons....  Let's not bash any of them please SMILEY

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Old 05-30-2010, 07:32 AM   #37
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I'm trying to remember which game it was, but my mind's drawing blank.  Part of me wants to say LotRO, though it could be something else.  But I'm remembering a game where ammo wasn't consumed but was a gear piece that went in the ammo slot.  So you could loot (or craft) better ammo, but not have one single class rely on paying constantly to do their job when no other class has to do so.  This would still give woodworkers something to craft and sell, but rangers wouldn't be paying a couple plat a night to do their job.

Quivers wouldn't be needed then?  Well, golly, how about opening up quivers (and possibly renaming them) to hold other crafted consumables?  I'm sure everyone would love some extra slots for the stacks of potions, poisons, food, drink, temp adorns, tinkered consumables like FD clickies, etc...

Another game has a lovely middle ground solution.  All classes able to use ranged weapons except rangers use either vendor bought or crafted arrows/throwing stars.  But rangers get their own special class arrow combines, using their own special class foraged components.  These ranger class specific arrows are perfectly competitive or even a little better in some ways.  These special class combines also create rather huge stacks (250 vs EQ2's 100), so it doesn't take ages to get the ammo needed for a week's worth of fighting.  Crafters still make arrows for every other class in the game that can use arrows, and rangers, again, don't pay a couple plat a night to do their job.  (Bonus points if you know this craptastic game that still somehow had some rather nice specific features.)

Again, I say this having a woodworker myself.  I know quite well how much cash woodworkers can bring in from rangers.  I really don't care.  There are plenty of other things to sell, like totems (or potential non-consumable arrow bundles were that to be implemented.)  Those new T9 totems are nice and sell just fine.

Also, as others have said, the cost in time or money from going through so many arrows per day wouldn't be such an issue if the resulting dps weren't lower than that of classes who get to do their jobs for free.  As it is, it's just insulting.  If a class paying a couple plat a night to do their job is so great for the game, then really, why not have every class pay a couple plat a night to do their job?  Weaponsmiths could rake in the cash from all other melee classes with sharpening stones, and sages or tailors (medicine bags, anyone?) could make a profit off mages and priests.  Just sayin'.  Don't like that concept?  Then why is it okay for rangers?

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Old 05-30-2010, 09:34 AM   #38
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Well let rangers summon arrows of moderate quality, they could be like 10% inferior to Woodworkers ones.

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Old 05-30-2010, 09:37 AM   #39
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You know whats funny...today a fabled throwing weapon, from the hole raidzone, was linked in the ranger channel that summones 99 fabled dagger every 5min, sooner with reuse, which have stats that are rivals the crafted spirit blessed arrows.

Why is no WW compalining about not selling throwing weapons.......

This game is so  biased towards rangers...its not even funny anymore

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Old 05-30-2010, 10:05 AM   #40
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Why must ranger summoned arrows be 10% less than the standard?  Do other classes do 10% less if they pay nothing?  No.  They pay nothing and get to do full damage.  Unless all other classes perform at 10% less than normal unles they pay for consumables, this is still not right.  Why is this still acceptable for rangers but not every other class in the game?

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Old 05-30-2010, 10:56 AM   #41
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Amyas wrote:

Don't most woodworkers make house items to sell? The arrow useage in eq2 is the highist i have ever seen in any MMO. Alot of MMO's now adays are doing away with arrows because of the annoyance factor. As for all the Realism people, if you can pretend you are a elf you can pretend you are using "arrows" and making them during down time.

No Woodworkers don't make house Items that is Carpenters.

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Old 05-30-2010, 10:58 AM   #42
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Axterix wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing weaponsmiths also gain access to the ranged ammo recipes.  That would provide another source of ammo, which should theoritically increase supply and lower prices.  It'd also provide something for weaponsmiths, who could really use it.

Now, yeah, woodworkers might complain because arrows are wood, but then, they currently make throwing knives and those are not wood, typically all metal.

Another possibility would be the equivelant of the priests' ability to summon food and drink.  Free arrows, but crappy.

Weaponsmiths already make the throwing weapons that woodworkers make, axes, shuriken, and knives.

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Old 05-30-2010, 11:02 AM   #43
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I'm trying to remember which game it was, but my mind's drawing blank.  Part of me wants to say LotRO, though it could be something else.  But I'm remembering a game where ammo wasn't consumed but was a gear piece that went in the ammo slot.  So you could loot (or craft) better ammo, but not have one single class rely on paying constantly to do their job when no other class has to do so.  This would still give woodworkers something to craft and sell, but rangers wouldn't be paying a couple plat a night to do their job.

Quivers wouldn't be needed then?  Well, golly, how about opening up quivers (and possibly renaming them) to hold other crafted consumables?  I'm sure everyone would love some extra slots for the stacks of potions, poisons, food, drink, temp adorns, tinkered consumables like FD clickies, etc...

Another game has a lovely middle ground solution.  All classes able to use ranged weapons except rangers use either vendor bought or crafted arrows/throwing stars.  But rangers get their own special class arrow combines, using their own special class foraged components.  These ranger class specific arrows are perfectly competitive or even a little better in some ways.  These special class combines also create rather huge stacks (250 vs EQ2's 100), so it doesn't take ages to get the ammo needed for a week's worth of fighting.  Crafters still make arrows for every other class in the game that can use arrows, and rangers, again, don't pay a couple plat a night to do their job.  (Bonus points if you know this craptastic game that still somehow had some rather nice specific features.)

Again, I say this having a woodworker myself.  I know quite well how much cash woodworkers can bring in from rangers.  I really don't care.  There are plenty of other things to sell, like totems (or potential non-consumable arrow bundles were that to be implemented.)  Those new T9 totems are nice and sell just fine.

Also, as others have said, the cost in time or money from going through so many arrows per day wouldn't be such an issue if the resulting dps weren't lower than that of classes who get to do their jobs for free.  As it is, it's just insulting.  If a class paying a couple plat a night to do their job is so great for the game, then really, why not have every class pay a couple plat a night to do their job?  Weaponsmiths could rake in the cash from all other melee classes with sharpening stones, and sages or tailors (medicine bags, anyone?) could make a profit off mages and priests.  Just sayin'.  Don't like that concept?  Then why is it okay for rangers?

QFT.

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Old 05-30-2010, 11:07 AM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:

Well let rangers summon arrows of moderate quality, they could be like 10% inferior to Woodworkers ones.

been there done that am glad they changed makeshift arrow to a buff so that we coudl do even worse dps then the CRAPPY dps we have now. 

FIX OUR RANGED CAs and gives us RANGED AUTOATTACK and FLURRY. we are told they want us at range then Let us T1 dps at ranged instead of CRAPPY dps at melee.

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Old 05-30-2010, 05:19 PM   #45
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I m not against top arrows summoning, but then you will face WW anger. With summoned arrows almost as good as player made ones you will be able to do heroic and solo content with summoned arrows without too much loss in dps. For sure you will still be free to maximize your damage and pay or craft  for it.

For raids your guild woodworkers are supposed to cover you, like alchmist cover the potion use and so on.

The advantage of my proposal is that it can be applied without dealing with woodworkers market, it may be not ideal but it can be done immediatly.

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Old 05-30-2010, 06:29 PM   #46
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If they want to go the summoned arrows way, then they need to be the best available arrows, period.  Seeing as they were unwilling to do this only a few months ago and instead made raid arrows and turned the old arrow summoning spell into a proc buff I doubt they will be willing to do it now.  The fact that classes that use throwing have the option of obtaining ammo summoning items is just insulting when no such option exists for rangers.  Again, if we have to pay for our basic DPS then we should be the best, bar none.

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Old 05-30-2010, 06:39 PM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:

I m not against top arrows summoning, but then you will face WW anger. With summoned arrows almost as good as player made ones you will be able to do heroic and solo content with summoned arrows without too much loss in dps. For sure you will still be free to maximize your damage and pay or craft  for it.

For raids your guild woodworkers are supposed to cover you, like alchmist cover the potion use and so on.

The advantage of my proposal is that it can be applied without dealing with woodworkers market, it may be not ideal but it can be done immediatly.

You know, some food for thought. Every time this comes up, in every thread I have read that's made about ranger arrow expenditures, I have never once seen a woodworker come in and be up in arms about the idea. Not. Once. On the contrary, I have seen a number of woodworkers outright state that they would not care, or would even welcome the change, because they do not actually make any real money from selling so many arrows (since usually arrows are sold at cost).

Let me repeat that. Every thread I have ever read on this topic, which must be numbering in the hundreds by now, over the space of many years (this is a very common complaint), has never once had an actual woodworker show up and get [Removed for Content] about the idea of not having to supply rangers with hundreds and thousands of arrows a week.

Can we please, until someone actually does show up and get angry about this, stop assuming that there will be a great thunderous rage from the woodworkers? We have a woodworker right in this thread repeatedly saying she wouldn't care if this change was made (granted, she also plays a ranger.)

That said, I can tell you exactly what would happen if they gave us the ability to make crappy arrows again. No one would use them. Those that did use them would be barred from groups in favor of those that did. This is like saying that all scouts have an option not to use poisons. Sure, scouts can choose NOT to use poisons...but that's choosing to play your class at less than peak efficiency, and you can bet once someone realizes you're running without poisons because you're too cheap to buy them, you're not going to b welcome in groups with that person again. This is exactly why they changed Makeshift Arrows, absolutely no one except for lower level rangers that were soloing were ever ever making use of the ability to summon inferior arrows.

I mean, think about it. Rangers are already supremely hurting in damage output in comparison to every other DPS class. Rangers, right now, have huge problems getting groups outside of their circle of friends, even when using the best arrows available to them. Why? Because all a ranger can bring to a group is damage, and every decently geared and played assassin, warlock, wizard, swashy and sometimes brigand brings more utility to the group and MORE damage. And not insignificant amounts of damage either. In many cases much MUCH more damage. If the ranger is undergeared or trying to group with raid equipped classes, even the tanks and sometimes the HEALERS have the capability to do more DPS than they do. Rangers can't compete for group slots now, giving them free but crappy arrows will not help the situation one bit.

Bottom line, it's an unbalanced design decision that should never have been made at the very beginning of the game. It's a bad thing to put into an MMO, where class balance is generally the largest issue developers face. It should never have been in EQ2. It should never have been in EQ1. (Incidentally, I'm told WoW is giving their hunters what amounts to an endless quiver with the next expansion. Couldn't tell you if that's accurate, but it's what I've heard). It's a holdover from single player RPGs such as Baldur's Gate (incidentally, Baldur's Gate 2 had at least two bows, if I remember right, that did not need ammunition, so even THEN the idea of not having consumable ammunition was floating around).

It's not the worst issue rangers face, but it's just one more thing that really needs adjusting.

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Old 05-30-2010, 07:22 PM   #48
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your a Ranger. paying for your arows is part of the class. hell EQ1 rangers didn't get thier 'endless quiver' until what? Luclin?and then it was like an endline skill, you had to practically have gotten every single other AA before you were able to get the Endless Quiver.

Granted, you could use a boost to your damage so that Assassins and Wizards aren't trouncing you so badly. they could make it so the bulk of your damage comes from your ranged CAs adn auto rather then running around in melee and then range.

and you prolly have an eaiser time getting that kind of fix then facing them trying to destroy another TS class like they've done with armorers/weaponsmiths/tailors.

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Old 05-30-2010, 07:49 PM   #49
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[email protected] wrote:

your a Ranger. paying for your arows is part of the class. hell EQ1 rangers didn't get thier 'endless quiver' until what? Luclin?and then it was like an endline skill, you had to practically have gotten every single other AA before you were able to get the Endless Quiver.

Granted, you could use a boost to your damage so that Assassins and Wizards aren't trouncing you so badly. they could make it so the bulk of your damage comes from your ranged CAs adn auto rather then running around in melee and then range.

and you prolly have an eaiser time getting that kind of fix then facing them trying to destroy another TS class like they've done with armorers/weaponsmiths/tailors.

I didn't play EQ in the end years, but I did play it for the first 4-5 years.  I played a ranger.  As I recall, rangers got fletching as a secondary skill automatically.

Quivers should be made endless.  You could have varying degrees of arrows even with this.  ie: handcrafted field point quiver, handcrafted bodkin quiver, mastercrafted field point quiver, legendary bodkin quiver, fabled quiver of fiery arrows of death.

Allow woodworkers to make the quivers.  Tailors have enough stuff to make as is.

While you are at this, why not take a look at why ranged weapons do less auto attack dps than melee weapons do auto attack dps.  Let's also take a look at why ranger combat arts are not comparable in damage to assassin combat arts. 

It was said almost a month before sf that rangers would be looked at and adjusted.  How many months have gone by and nothing... It would be different if every month there was an update and classes were balanced in these monthly updates (that is the way it worked for several years).  Now we go 4 months at a time between updates and there are no class balances that happen.  I think we are currently 3.5 months out from the next chance at getting 'adjusted'.

Do the devs not know why there are 4x as many level 90 shadowknights as there are rangers?

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Old 05-30-2010, 08:01 PM   #50
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[email protected] wrote:

your a Ranger. paying for your arows is part of the class. hell EQ1 rangers didn't get thier 'endless quiver' until what? Luclin?and then it was like an endline skill, you had to practically have gotten every single other AA before you were able to get the Endless Quiver.

Granted, you could use a boost to your damage so that Assassins and Wizards aren't trouncing you so badly. they could make it so the bulk of your damage comes from your ranged CAs adn auto rather then running around in melee and then range.

and you prolly have an eaiser time getting that kind of fix then facing them trying to destroy another TS class like they've done with armorers/weaponsmiths/tailors.

See above post. This would not destroy Woodworkers, and even if that were the case, it is completely ridiculous that one single class should be supporting an entire tradeskill. The solution to that is fixing woodworkers as well, not forcing one class to pay upwards of two plat A NIGHT just to keep woodworkers afloat.

You could say that sucking at DPS is also part of the class. That doesn't make it a good part of the class. Back when coercers used thoughtstones for a certain part of their essential spells, I'm sure people argued that was 'part of the class' too. Name me one coercer who was sad when that particular 'feature' was patched out. Being 'part of the class' doesn't automatically make it balanced or desired. It is neither.

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Old 06-01-2010, 09:38 PM   #51
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Was a poor design to begin with when they made rangers the sole supporter of woodworkers. How about sages make an item that is needed for every spell a mage can cast. Sound like a good idea? That's where we're at.

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Old 06-01-2010, 09:47 PM   #52
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Oh wonderful, the four page thread from General ends up here too, after several days.

Seriously, it's hard to take thread moving as insulting but seriously.

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Old 06-01-2010, 10:02 PM   #53
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I'm curious how these two threads don't belong in a general forum. Putting them in here is like throwing them in the garbage. Kiara obviously has carte blanche and uses it for what she wants.

If you think about it, this team has the dream job. Not because they make video games but, because they're the only non government company in america that can take a dump on customers and get away with it. I work with client's everyday and only wish I could come close to getting away with what these guys do.

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Old 06-02-2010, 01:58 PM   #54
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akaglty wrote:

I'm curious how these two threads don't belong in a general forum. Putting them in here is like throwing them in the garbage.

What's funny is there's a Summoner's pet "hey we're broken post" that has been allowed to sit there since 5/27.

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Old 06-02-2010, 02:06 PM   #55
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Well could always spin every thread in public forums to ranger issues lol. We got a lot of them so wouldn't be that hard really.And before someone says some 'catch more flies with honey' bull we did that months ago with squat to show for it. So if we are going to be ignored we might as well do it on our terms.

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Old 06-02-2010, 02:30 PM   #56
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[email protected] wrote:

Well could always spin every thread in public forums to ranger issues lol. We got a lot of them so wouldn't be that hard really.And before someone says some 'catch more flies with honey' bull we did that months ago with squat to show for it. So if we are going to be ignored we might as well do it on our terms.

+1. I am done being nice. I am just going to be an a%^ on the forums from now on and derail every thread I can to ranger issue threadSMILEY

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Old 06-02-2010, 02:38 PM   #57
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It's totally unfair that rangers have to pay for arrows. How were they supposed to know when they created the class that they'd be using arrows?

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Old 06-02-2010, 03:03 PM   #58
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Whats funny is because of their [Removed for Content]'d design people making rangers probably wouldn't realize how much they TRULY have to use arrows until like 30-40. Wait that's not funny. But with your logic if say summoners had to pay for every spell cast and other mages didn't, it would be fair and proper if that's just how its always been? 'just because' is NEVER a good enough reasons to justify ANYTHING.

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Old 06-02-2010, 04:06 PM   #59
Ranja

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Nevao wrote:

akaglty wrote:

I'm curious how these two threads don't belong in a general forum. Putting them in here is like throwing them in the garbage.

What's funny is there's a Summoner's pet "hey we're broken post" that has been allowed to sit there since 5/27.

Nope I got that thread moved through the "report" feature. SMILEY I am going to report every class specific thread in that forum right after I de-rail it with a ranger rant.

Go go ranger a%^

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Old 06-02-2010, 04:46 PM   #60
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Ranja wrote:

Nope I got that thread moved through the "report" feature. I am going to report every class specific thread in that forum right after I de-rail it with a ranger rant.

Go go ranger a%^

On an interesting side note they deleted all our comments about how it looked really bad to mod us but not someone else. But that's a derailing...

Back to Endless Quiver. I have no problem paying for arrows. I view paying for arrows to be the "cost" for being able to hit at the range we can. I'm much more concerned about the relative damage values, and the min range  than I am on the cost. Especially with the Conservation AA and Mythical Buff cutting down how much we have to consume on both sides.

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