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Old 03-28-2008, 01:22 AM   #61
Aeralik

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ZababEW wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

...,The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler,...

Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

And if you read the full post, you will see I say they are all right there close together on raid. If you are the "T7" dps you claim you would be futher down the hierachy. I also never said thats how it should be I am just saying things on raids are much closer than you all claim.
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Old 03-28-2008, 01:36 AM   #62
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Some of you rangers, need to post some screenies of ZW's from ACT to give your data side of the discussion.
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Old 03-28-2008, 01:47 AM   #63
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And everyone but you is saying that the gap is much larger than what you are saying it is Aeralik.Maybe you should show us the data you are basing these claims off of that fly in the face of every raider's experience.
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Old 03-28-2008, 02:02 AM   #64
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again.All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure.
This is what I see as part of the problem.  Stop looking through data, analyzing data.Play a ranger for a little while.  Get a feel for what happens in an actual encounter/raid with a regular account, not a dev/GM account.  That means fighting an epic named with 23 others, not standing there alone, invulnerable, attacking the mob.  It is not enough to have been in a raid with a ranger.  Be the ranger.  Or berserker.  Or coercer.  That is the only way you are going to see what the player base is talking about.This is precisely the kind of thing that Ryan Shwayder (a.k.a Blackguard) wrote about here: http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/22/m...ment-lesson-28/
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Old 03-28-2008, 02:17 AM   #65
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Rensor wrote:
Nere wrote:
Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.

Not attempting to de-rail the thread .. but since you brought it up. Where are Warlocks in this data? Do we fall in line even with Wizards (as we should)?

Be careful not to be quick to make assumptions.  Traditionally it was commonly accepted and originally designed so that rangers and assassins "should" fall in line even with one another.  Aeralik has pretty much stated in the above post that in actuality:

(assasins > rangers) + (rangers = swashbucklers) is "working as intended."

Lord only knows where the devs believe that warlocks should fit in at this point.  I'm curious on this point as well.

Now I still have some small hope that I've misinterpreted his comment, and that the data Aeralik is discussing above was pulled from his tests on the live servers.  Then it would be feasible that he's still working to bring rangers and assassins to parity, as they should be.  While the changes introduced so far may not be enough to achieve this end, it'd be encouraging to know that that's the ultimate goal.  I could continue playing confident that through a few more tweaks we'd end up back where we should be.

Unfortunately, given what we've seen so far, the latter possibility seems unlikely.

Assuming the worst case scenario, I'd like to pose the following question:  can anyone (including Aeralik or any other dev) think of a good reason why a leader would want to bring a ranger to a raid over any other DPS class at this point (including assassins, rogues, bards, sorcerors, conjurors, enchanters, brawlers, furies)?  Again, the lack of utility and added cost of playing a ranger make the class undesirable on raids.  The changes so far have done nothing to improve this.

Well this is why I'm asking the question. There is no reason to play a warlock unless the 'vision' is for both sorceror classes to be equal in terms of dps. Frankly there hasn't been much reason to not betray to wizard for quite some time.

In any event I'd just like to hear the dev's response since he brought up the data. Where do warlocks fit in on it. I see wizards .. assassins .. swash .. rangers .. wheres the warlock? At the end?

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Old 03-28-2008, 03:05 AM   #66
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 Quote from wrapye's link.. SOOO TRUE!

Playing the game as players do doesn't mean "legitimately play the game as every option." It means you have to play the game with no developer commands to know how everything works in practice. If an issue specifically comes up that you haven't personally tested "as a player," you have at least the following options:

1) Find another dev that plays that class and talk to them. 2) Observe how it plays out while grouped (you can generally tell things are screwed up when grouped with someone). 3) Use your hax0r dev commands and specifically test the perceived problem. 4) Talk to trusted class players within the community.

The real idea is that playing your game as a player gives you a much better idea of the state of things than just reading the forums or /feedback.

MAKE A RANGER AND PLAY IT!!! OR BETRAY!!!

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Old 03-28-2008, 04:01 AM   #67
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You could just have raised our T8 bows/arrows to do T8 damage Aeroflick and everyone would have been happy, but you choosed to ignore us, nerf us and spit on us.. Age of Conan seems a lot more tempting now.. I hear they removed arrows from the game because it made the ranger class too expensive and was just annoying people............................................ ..

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Old 03-28-2008, 04:17 AM   #68
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From what I've read, Aeralik's vision of the ranger is something that should have happened a long time ago. Drop auto attack damage, increase CA damage. For me, its no problem getting a good bow, but for some of the "not so fortunate" rangers who aren't in guilds to get the good bows and the best they can do is the fabled ET (some can't even get that still) having our dps not rely so heavily on the quality of our bow is going to be a very good thing.Go back to EoF, until you got the SDLB or RSB, it was pretty hard to put up decent numbers. Once either of those had been obtained, it was ez street for putting up the good numbers. Relying so heavily on a single item in game to increase our dps that much is just BS. I like the idea of having more powerful CA's and less auto attack. It bridges the gap slightly between having average bow and uber bow.
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:21 AM   #69
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:00 AM   #70
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Aeralik wrote:
And if you read the full post, you will see I say they are all right there close together on raid. If you are the "T7" dps you claim you would be futher down the hierachy. I also never said thats how it should be I am just saying things on raids are much closer than you all claim.

Alright, well here is my last feedback on this subject.  I can't understand how your data shows that those classes are all "close", so all I can do is give you some history from me to back up my "claims".

In T7, I was almost fully mastered, but couldn't get a bow to drop to save my life.  I used the Ghostly Bow of Bylze.  I parsed 2k zonewide pretty much everywhere we went, as did our Assassin and Swashy.  The three of us were toe to toe every zone.  We do not always have the same 24 people or even a total of 24 people.

In August I took a break from the game and came back in January.  I leveled to 80, replaced almost all my T7 Masters with T8 Adept IIIs (and I've got 9 T8 Masters now).  I have the Eagle's Talon (Fabled) and the Star Darkened Longbow (which dropped a couple weeks ago in a status raid).  I upgraded gear (you can see it using EQ2 Players).  My DPS zonewide increased to about 3-3.5k.  The Swashy was hitting 4.5-5k zonewide and our Assassin is hitting 4-4.5k.  The Swashy has a lot more masters than the Assassin, so that could be where that difference is.  I have more Masters than the Assassin.  We all have all our drops out of T1 (except, I'm missing the shoulders), so gear is comparible as far as what is available to us at our current progression.

Now, it could be that in my time off, I just completely forgot how to play a Ranger.  But, I doubt that.  Something else has contributed to the imbalance.  When I see Rangers I knew from T7 say that they see about the same thing (specifically, Nesse and Ranja in another thread), it seems like I probably didn't just forget how to play. 

I find some of the things you have said in recent posts to be confusing.

  • It is okay for Rangers to be "close" behind Assassins and Wizards?  Why is that?  Why shouldn't you be trying to make them tied with Assassins and Wizards?  What do Rangers have that warrant them being below them, no matter how "close"?
  • You want scouts to do less auto-attack damage and rely more on CAs, yet the Assassin's Mythical has flurry on it and Ranger's Mythical increases your auto-attack damage based on distance to the mob.  Isn't that contradictory?  Isn't it also contradictory that melee weapons are getting longer delays and higher top end damage, plus all the double attack and crit gear now?  How do you expect auto-attack damage to be relied on less, when the itemization is pushing it up?  The percentage I see from auto-attack is way higher in T8 from all the scout classes as far as I can tell.  Now you give Rangers a utliity to allow other scout classes to hit even more auto-attacks, which means it will go even higher.  But at the same time you are putting a 20% reduction on all bows, but no reduction on melee weapons.  I just don't understand this at all...  (Edit: And no, I'm not pushing for a reduction on melee weapons.  I just want bows and melee weapons to be handled consistently.)
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:29 AM   #71
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Aeralik wrote:
ZababEW wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

...,The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler,...

Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

And if you read the full post, you will see I say they are all right there close together on raid. If you are the "T7" dps you claim you would be futher down the hierachy. I also never said thats how it should be I am just saying things on raids are much closer than you all claim.
You said, "In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up."  Perhaps you didn't mean by this that swash dps being on par with ranger is ok, but one can hardly blame people for taking that from that statement.
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:45 AM   #72
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The only scout class that is more heavily dependent upon CA DPS than Auto Attack DPS is Assassin, all other melee classes rely on their Auto Attack and optimizing for auto attack heavily for their DPS.Rogues are sitting at approximately 40-50% of their DPS from Auto Attack as are the Bards. Rangers in T7 were sitting at around 40-60% depending upon the bow they used and that same balance between CA and Auto Attack has continued into T8, losing a bit of Auto Attack DPS percentage of their total DPS to improved CA damage values. But Assassins are sitting at 25-40% of their DPS from Auto Attack.The rest of the DPS for those classes is shared out between Proc's(Be it poisons, group buffs, self buffs or equipment proc's) and CA damage.This myth of scouts doing more CA DPS than Auto Attack DPS is a fabrication based upon a single class with the most powerful CAs in the game. In the current meta-game for EQ2 optimizing Auto Attack through +effects and timing is a keypoint to parsing effectively. A balancing act of performing the best CA order and timing the CA's to allow Auto Attacks to fall between them without delaying the Auto Attack.This is DPS 101 for a melee class and applies to rangers and their ranged CA/Auto Attack just the same.There has been no evidence, no data at all as a matter of fact, that has supported any of your claims Aeralik. In fact, the experience of the vast majority of the players is in direct contradiction to what you have claimed and you can see this for yourself by just looking at the boards, not these boards, but you know exactly which ones and know they offer the most accurate information about these parses of what actually happens.
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Old 03-28-2008, 07:17 AM   #73
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[email protected] wrote:
From what I've read, Aeralik's vision of the ranger is something that should have happened a long time ago. Drop auto attack damage, increase CA damage. For me, its no problem getting a good bow, but for some of the "not so fortunate" rangers who aren't in guilds to get the good bows and the best they can do is the fabled ET (some can't even get that still) having our dps not rely so heavily on the quality of our bow is going to be a very good thing.

That vision sounded also good to me, as someone who still uses raincaller all the way up to 80 and who still i missing the old DoF times when i could use 1c arrows because 60% of my damage were procs/poisons and AA was maybe 10-15% or whatever.

However i expected that our RANGED attacks were boostet and get faster recasttimer, but not mainly some of our gimpy  melee styles that only suck mana like crazy but don't do any damage at all.

Best test how our melee styles suck is go into Bloodskull Valley. Heck as a 70 Ranger i needed 15 minutes or whatever in there fighting 90% of the time OOM against all that level 20 mobs, while my SK walked in and in 2 minutes all was dead and the still had 70% mana.

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Old 03-28-2008, 08:45 AM   #74
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Marillion wrote:
Aeralik wrote:A few points of interest you should consider in this data. Is that an assassin can obtain basically the same dps on his own as a group of one in a raid. They self buff to dps well above 100 and dont need anything from anyone else, as the raidwide spells cover it. They also give another non-poison user another 250+ dps with there nice buff, so there effective dps is even higher than there good counter part. You basically say in your comments that the ranger is suppose to be behind the assassin, why? when its just an alignment choice (are good ppl just worse at dps?).
You are sorely mistaken. Just because an assassin self buffs dps (78% with Villain at M1; 68% with Villain at Adept III) doesn't mean we don't need anything else from anyone else. We need haste, we need dktm, we need str buffs, we need int buffs, we need proc modifiers, we need pretty much what every other scout needs and no, raidwide buffs do not cover any of the things mentioned. We self buff dps, you self buff haste; if you think haste doesn't matter then I invite you to raid without it~.If how people perceive that things are wrong are gaps on the parser Wizards are the ones leading and leading by quite a bit once you hit the top end content (read: VP, Trakanon and Avatars). This is subject to change but it remains to be seen how much will it change. But when it comes to top end content, Wizards are above all (which makes them the "golden child" as somebody referred to assassins).I feel for the issues on your class but the continuous bitterness at assassins, the uninformed claims about the class paired with all the posters I see demeaning Aeralik by deforming his name on purpose really aren't going to help your cause. Just saying~.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:42 AM   #75
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
Interesting post. To the rangers here, why don't you post actual zonewides if you don't agree with this? I sure can't find any on these boards. (No arguments now, just do it.)About the test changes, they sound like they will bring a slight improvement in dps. But I don't like them Aeralik. What can I say, I like the way my ranger functions now with its focus on ranged autoattack.For pvp this will be a definate change for the worse, patricularly against melee classes. The melee improvements bring me next to nothing, and while the 3 CA improvements are nice, casting 1 second ranged CAs while standing still isn't something that you easily do with all the cures, freedom potions and city merchant insignias around to mitigate my snares. I need my autoattack to win and I'm not happy to see it lowered.Worse than this, I expect the changes in hit% on the ferrite arrows to affect me immensly. I pvp in def stance with 5 AAs sunk into it I have a hit rate of about 80% (based on very limited parsing against even con chain and cloth, but I think 80% is being generous). That is bad enough as it is but the arrow changes will make it worse: I must have my snare poison procing from autoattack to get someone slowed enough to cast a CA.  Whatever may happen with CA damage, I will still have to rely on autoattack for pvp and it's taking a double nerf. SMILEY(Since you guys turned off pvp on test I can't know for sure how it's gonna affect me but it doesn't look good.)Last, focus aim is deactivated in pvp so my group won't benefit from it. That's minor though, I'm just pointing that out.
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:14 AM   #76
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Aeralik wrote:
ZababEW wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

...,The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler,...

Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

And if you read the full post, you will see I say they are all right there close together on raid. If you are the "T7" dps you claim you would be futher down the hierachy. I also never said thats how it should be I am just saying things on raids are much closer than you all claim.

I suggest prove us all with your data. You are very intent that your data is correct. Well, post it!

Rangers are still not close to Assassins at all. You say it is, but I think you are wrong. I want to see ZW parses.

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Old 03-28-2008, 10:24 AM   #77
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Aye, lets see some numbers. please prove 100% of the Ranger community wrong, i mean we only see it everyday but i guess we have our drunk caps on rightSMILEY
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:46 AM   #78
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Yes Aerliak you need to post the data to prove us wrong otherwise the community is not going to believe you.On the other hand, WE as a ranger community need to post OUR data. Our raid parses etc showing where we are on the parse. We can directly refute Aerliak's statement by doing so and hopefully get somewhere.
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:49 AM   #79
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[email protected] wrote:
Aye, lets see some numbers. please prove 100% of the Ranger community wrong, i mean we only see it everyday but i guess we have our drunk caps on rightSMILEY

Ok, some numbers .. i'm not a raider and only do Guildraids in T7 once a week, so i still run around with Raincaller and Terens Griff Faction Bow because thats still the best available for me at this time SMILEY

Labs of VyemmAllies: (32:06) 41266414 | 21425,97 [Tomtidure-Manaverbrennung-71755]Stephanos 6074158 | 3153,77 - AssassinTomtidure 5471124 | 2840,67  - WizardCasera 4798221 | 2491,29   - Zerker MTShyleene 3451978 | 1792,30 - Ranger

LyceumAllies: (23:10) 262445357 | 18880,96 [Tomtidure-Manaverbrennung-63407]Stephanos 3491489 | 2511,86Tomtidure 3291824 | 2368,22Shyleene 2923062 | 2102,92Casera 2904822 | 2089,80

Halls of SeeingAllies: (45:14) 53222127 | 19610,22 [Tomtidure-Manaverbrennung-47643]Stephanos 8098911 | 2984,12Casera 6235851 | 2297,66Shyleene 5775426 | 2128,01Arminius 4302827 | 1585,42 - Wizard Level 72 at that time i think 

Mistmore SanctumAllies: (56:47) 73849786 | 21675,90 [Tyrius-Pflock durchs Herz-120943]Jucilie 12927239 | 3794,32 - Swashy !!!!!Stephanos 8594654 | 2522,65Corvinos 6196596 | 1818,78 - Shadowknight MTAsgardia 6179582 | 1813,79 - WizardXaver 5917671 | 1736,92 - NecroShyleene 5837488 | 1713,38 

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Old 03-28-2008, 10:55 AM   #80
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Effidian wrote:
I knew I'd forget something.  Our Assassin's auto attack damage is equal to and sometimes higher than mine (and 40% of his zonewide).  He is using Fang of Ichor (fabled) and Betrayal's Song and I'm using Eagle's Talon (fabled).  If we could just do the damage our bows are supposed to do it would help to close the gap between our zonewide dps, but I'm pretty sure I still wouldn't be able to beat him when we were equally buffed.  Assassin's CAs do way more damage than Ranger's do, and as he gets Mastered, he'll pull even higher above me.
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Old 03-28-2008, 11:45 AM   #81
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Ok im completely confused.  I dont play a ranger, but i understand them pretty well.  Aerliak posted that in raids rangers are just behind assasins/wizards and on par with swashies.  I am trying to figure out the advantage of a ranger then.  If i can pick up an assasin or wizard that can out dps a ranger, or a swash that can match his DPS + bring a ton of debuffs as well, then why would anyone consider a ranger for a raid?   Plus the fact it costs rangers plat to DPS, if i do recall its free for wizards/assasins/swash.

My second problem is the large number of people that never even see a raid.  Why are they being effected by the same things raid rangers are?  On top of all that, if it truely is "Raid" DPS that Aerliak is trying to balance, then why are the none raid bows getting a big DPS nerf, while the top 4 bow's that only raiders can get are staying the same? 

Where is the logic?  What am i missing?

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Old 03-28-2008, 11:45 AM   #82
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Aeralik,

Let's see some data please.

I'd really like to know what bow/gear you are using to even remotely consider Ranger DPS ok. 

 My fiancee plays a Ranger and she is pretty competetive when it comes to this stuff so we are always trying to push her dps as high as we can get it.   In the process of doing this I have become quite familiar with the Ranger class.  From CA order to timing auto attacks to what gear she should be using and why and to the utterly acinine arrow mechanics.  All I can say about the RoK expansion is that it has been pretty unfufilling for her.  I guess I should preface this by saying that we are not in a hardcore raiding guild, but I'm pretty sure we aren't far from a decent representation of your general EQ2 player.  We raid on the weekends and have really just started T8 raid content.  However, I can only imagine that her issues will only get worse as our raidforce starts to get more and more fabled.

 She is equipped in pretty much all the best stuff she can have in RoK before raid gear and using her Fabled Epic bow with AD3s and a few Masters and guess what... her dps has gone up by a MUCH smaller margin than pretty much every other scout and mage in our guild at 80 who dont even have any masters at all.  Last T8 raid we were on, the Swashie outdpsed her on the zonewide (albeit by a small margin but it was still higher).  They both had a Troub and Illusionist in group and had identical buffs on them.  Again, both are using the best non raid gear possible.  Now this is just one instance ive cited here but I see it on a nightly basis.  She really struggles to keep her dps up and she is getting fairly frustrated.  Not to mention the disgusting amount of money we pour into her arrows at 4-6s each.

Your posts and sometimes scathing remarks are an absolute insult to this community and then you wonder why you are getting flamed by pretty much 99% of the people that post here.  Rangers don't have utitlity.  To argue otherwise is absurd.  To give them 1 new buff and argue oherwise is also absurd.  They show up in groups and raids to do damage.  Period, end of story.  Whats the saying? "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining?"  

 Perhaps it's bad business on SOEs part to have an Assassin in charge of Ranger development.  It doesn't matter how hard you are trying to not be biased, its built into human nature in situations where there is a conflict of interest.  And why are you even contemplating messing with bow auto attack dmg??  She usually tracks between 40-50% of her damage being AA and I'm sorry thats either not far off or right on par with a lot of other classes.

At any rate, something really needs to give here.   Whenever I'm playing I have a Ranger with me and I know that what I see on a nighly basis does NOT jive with a single thing you are saying and im fairly certain these nerfs (not fixes, nerfs) will be the last straw for my girl.  She's kept her blinders on and stayed away from forums since she started playing but this is just rediculous now.  Seeing her class watered down to a lower tier of DPS and then have the dev basically say the things that you have is more frustrating than you can ever imagine.

-Vaydn - 80 Mystic

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Old 03-28-2008, 12:38 PM   #83
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[email protected] wrote:

Ok im completely confused.  I dont play a ranger, but i understand them pretty well.  Aerliak posted that in raids rangers are just behind assasins/wizards and on par with swashies.  I am trying to figure out the advantage of a ranger then.  If i can pick up an assasin or wizard that can out dps a ranger, or a swash that can match his DPS + bring a ton of debuffs as well, then why would anyone consider a ranger for a raid?   Plus the fact it costs rangers plat to DPS, if i do recall its free for wizards/assasins/swash.

My second problem is the large number of people that never even see a raid.  Why are they being effected by the same things raid rangers are?  On top of all that, if it truely is "Raid" DPS that Aerliak is trying to balance, then why are the none raid bows getting a big DPS nerf, while the top 4 bow's that only raiders can get are staying the same? 

Where is the logic?  What am i missing?

You are not missing anything, and there simply is no logic behind that all SMILEY

The only logic maybe is : Ranger can kite -> kiting is BAD ->>> NERF Rangers

And so, since all CAs already have been nerfed to be unusable on the run, the next thing is autoattack. After that the next will maybe that poisons/procs don't trigger anymore if the arow was shot on the run. And the last step is : No autoattack while on the run, and the recast timer will be reset to full 9 seconds after you stopped from running.

I think that is the only BIG VISION they have for rangers.

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Old 03-28-2008, 12:44 PM   #84
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[email protected] wrote:

The only logic maybe is : Ranger can kite -> kiting is BAD ->>> NERF Rangers

When I read this, in my mind it sounded like...

Rangers can kite >> Kiting is bad >> Very, very bad >> Nerf Rangers, mmm-kay

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Old 03-28-2008, 12:52 PM   #85
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Aeralik wrote:
And if you read the full post, you will see I say they are all right there close together on raid. If you are the "T7" dps you claim you would be futher down the hierachy. I also never said thats how it should be I am just saying things on raids are much closer than you all claim.

Aeralik,

Were telling you your data is wrong for the parsing over and  over SMILEY  PLEASE HELP

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Old 03-28-2008, 01:49 PM   #86
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Aeralik wrote:
I also never said thats how it should be I am just saying things on raids are much closer than you all claim.
This is the section I would like to highlight, Aeralik. I don't raid so I don't know where we are in raids. BUT the most important thing I see here is that you "never said that's how it should be." If this is NOT how it should be you need to fix it instead of constantly telling us that we are "fine."
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Old 03-28-2008, 01:52 PM   #87
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Aeralik,

I am sure you are putting some effort into some type of class balance. However, the frustration you are seeing from the community is because it appears to us that your decisions are based on flawed data.

You have the entire Ranger community ACROSS SERVERS - all agreeing that we are significantly dps penalized since the introduction of RoK.

You have the entire Ranger community ACROSS SERVERS - parsing and offering data points indicating these disparities.

You have the entire Ranger community ACROSS SERVERS and other DPS classes, Wizzies, Swashy's, Assassin's, Warlocks, Brig's etc... all SUPPORTING the Ranger appeal for fairness - they all realise our DPS compared to our Utility is totally flawed.

You - yourself commented that Rangers are below Wizzies and Assassins's DPS, and equal to Swashy DPS. These classes bring significantly more raid and group utility than a Ranger.

None of these classes have the difficulty in obtaining the gear we need to acheive this position on the parse

None of these classes have to pay significant amounts of plat to acheive these numbers

NONE OF THESE CLASSES HAVE DIFFICULTY IN OBTAINING A RAID SPOT - Except for Rangers !!!

Even the proposed Utility offering in LU44 provides additional disparity - it further benefits the melee classes we are compared to i.e. It will add more dps to the classes that are already ahead of us, and we are measured against.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE - Put your current data to one side, dude you're a coder...you know the data and statistics can be flawed, especially when complex systems are involved. I mean this isn't some huge conspiracy across servers and classes to make the Ranger the uber toon !!! just a buncha people passionate about the game and class that truly think they are getting shafted again. Combine this with the support you have seen from other classes - all agreeing with our analysis. Doesn't this make you stop and think.

From my perspective LU44 the way it stands will make me stop playing my Ranger, he is an alt - currently RSB equiped. LU44 will nerf my dps with this bow, and I stand no chance of getting a T8 fabled raid bow...my toon as effectively gone backwards dps wise, even after spending 220 plat less than 6 weeks ago...this plat took me 6 months to accumulate. I suppose this LU not only will make or break the Ranger, it will also decide if I continue to pay for my 2 accounts.

regards

Bara

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Old 03-28-2008, 03:29 PM   #88
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#1 Assassin#2 Wizard#3 Assassin#4 Necro#7 Ranger....This is an extreme parse from one of the top guilds in the game and you are saying we are up there with wizzies?
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:43 PM   #89
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Wow, been playing Meerah since the first week. 500+ days played on her.. I have never, ever considered rangers as being 'fine' if we are 'right there with the brigands', *a T2 class*. I am speechless. Next expansion we'll prolly be *fine* when we are parsing along with the rats in Freeport. Sigh.
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:44 PM   #90
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Aeralik wrote:
ZababEW wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

...,The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler,...

Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

And if you read the full post, you will see I say they are all right there close together on raid. If you are the "T7" dps you claim you would be futher down the hierachy. I also never said thats how it should be I am just saying things on raids are much closer than you all claim.
I think you're misinterpreting. When people say 'T7' DPS, we're talking about the raiding tier, level 70. Essentially, as 99% of Rangers will never see a bow that's better than T7 had to offer, this is pretty much true. (Well, except for our epic. But that's only because you cheated and nerfed RSB so you could call our Fabled an upgrade.)
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