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Old 03-27-2008, 01:35 PM   #31
Barakuz

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I am equally as vocal about the need for some Ranger improvements. However, calling for another sister class nerf is really not appropriate. Assassin's as they stand are about right dps wise compared to their utility, Rangers need a boost.

Calling for class nerf's just brings out the trolls and every other ignoramus that feels they need to chime in a prove what little clue they have about this game or the class in question.

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Old 03-27-2008, 04:08 PM   #32
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Barakuz wrote:

I am equally as vocal about the need for some Ranger improvements. However, calling for another sister class nerf is really not appropriate. Assassin's as they stand are about right dps wise compared to their utility, Rangers need a boost.

Calling for class nerf's just brings out the trolls and every other ignoramus that feels they need to chime in a prove what little clue they have about this game or the class in question.

Bara

Aye, leave assassins alone they dont need a nerf. Rangers just need to have there DPS brought in line With assassins who offer way more to a raid/group (dps and Utility wise) then Rangers do.
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Old 03-27-2008, 04:11 PM   #33
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[email protected] wrote:
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Title says it all.Why are assassins, the other predator, allowed to do, much much more damage than they were in T7 while rangers are given a handicap?I have run all of the numbers coming from test from every level of weapon quality, Legendary/MC T8/T7 through RSP/ET Mythical equipped.All of the numbers are showing on test server T8 bows staying very, very close to the auto attack DPS they are doing right now on live servers. While weapons that were considered balanced in T7 against every other class doing their T7 DPS are now considered overpowered.But melee DPS is allowed to progress and build higher and higher.Why is the Assassin class, which has more utility from Apply Toxins(Best melee DPS buff in the game) and Hate Transfer, not handicapped to doing the same auto attack DPS as they were doing in T7 like Rangers?This is some really [Removed for Content] poor balancing going on.
What a stupid way to complain about the ranger arrow problem; seriously.You had two choices:1)  Make an informed and constructive post outlining the problem and possible solutions, in no way singling out a single dev/class/player, and get the majority of the forum behind you, including assassins.2)  Recommend that assassins are nerfed to make them just as useless as rangers, thereby providing no useful information to the uninformed, no real solutions (screwing all melee classes even more does not fix broken mechanics, it only makes them more broken) and instantly creating a large and vocal group of players that will disagree with everything you later suggest.Seriously, if you want to make a useful post then you don't come out and say "We should be the best DPS evar!"; most other dps classes will disagree.  It simply becomes an argument over who should have the best dps.  And that does not help you, as it is impossible to come out of it with your head held high.Any complaint that basically boils down to "Us vs Them" is doomed to failure.
Maybe you should pay attention to the arrow changes thread in testing feedback.This is a class comparison thread dealing with the changes on test, that was first moved to gameplay and then another moderator came on duty and decided he needed to move it to the ranger forums.I am using the comparison to show the disparities in usefulness of the class, since you have zero constructive information at all about any of the comparisons I made other than a very weak trolling post maybe you should sideline yourself and not come back till someone can explain to you the situation rangers are currently in with the changes on test.Tell them pop up books may help you with your current reading comprehension levels.
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Old 03-27-2008, 05:37 PM   #34
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Yep, its because Aeroflick plays an assassin. Ofc he want to top the parse. Also he hate rangers and want them to burn in h*ll......................
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Old 03-27-2008, 05:38 PM   #35
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Ok excluding RSB, could someone maybee run some test's with either SDL or Tunare's Wrath (on live vs ET on test) If Aeralik is saying RSB is so overpowered, then the epic should be ahead of SDL and TW since it has better stats proc etc.  If ET on test is still doing less then said bows, adjustments need to be made as those ARE T7 Bows.

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Old 03-27-2008, 05:41 PM   #36
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I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
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Old 03-27-2008, 05:44 PM   #37
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
the point is the fact that With our Primary Weapon that we use to DPS we have not MOVED WHAT SO EVER from T7-T8 (yes we got a bit more of CA dmg but EVERY class did) while every other melee class got a huge boost in Auto attack dmg just from the weapons they wield (True T8 weapons). We are STILL doing the same amount of dmg that we were in T7 With both T7 and T8 Bows. What is so hard to understand about this?
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:11 PM   #38
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
What data are you looking at to get Rangers not being far behind Assassins?Seriously, it would be helpful for you to post your data because an overwhelming majority of people are disagreeing. Not only rangers, but from every corner of the game. Heroic content and Raid content.Assassins are leading Rangers at the top end by around a thousand DPS with spikes being far greater than this, the two thousand range. At the low end I have been seeing parses of equivalently geared Assassins and Rangers with the Assassin leading by 300 or more DPS.What would you call being far behind if you wouldn't call doing the same DPS as the considered T2 DPS classes of Swashy, Brigand, Illusionist and being beaten by those classes regularly?This thread may be outrageous, but it is accurate to the predicament this class is in, less utility and less DPS than all other main role DPS classes.The changes that have occured on test not only leaves all of the tier eight bows doing equivalent damage as to what they are doing now, as you can see from the tests being run using the same bow, same ammo, same crit/DA rating, same strength, same DPS mod, same haste while T7 and lower bows are being reduced in effectiveness when they were considered balanced in T7.Instead of doing ever increasing small incremental changes upward, while a deadline for the release of this LU looms closer with no noticeable or effective difference being made, make a single large change and then make small incremental changes to tune the DPS potential down to being equivalent to Assassin DPS.
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:15 PM   #39
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
Why won't you share this data? you always say you have this data, that shows you were fine dps wise. But everyone else (Who actually play the class) shows different data.. I am seriously begging you betray for a month, Honestly just do it to prove you actually have the right perspective to see the problems or lack of problems. I have played my ranger since day 1 and have NEVER complained about any of the nerfs swung our way. I didnt start getting vocal about this until your idea of a fix came about... BETRAY TO RANGER!!
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:19 PM   #40
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
A few points of interest you should consider in this data. Is that an assassin can obtain basically the same dps on his own as a group of one in a raid. They self buff to dps well above 100 and dont need anything from anyone else, as the raidwide spells cover it. They also give another non-poison user another 250+ dps with there nice buff, so there effective dps is even higher than there good counter part. You basically say in your comments that the ranger is suppose to be behind the assassin, why? when its just an alignment choice (are good ppl just worse at dps?). As a dirge, i understand the wording for chime is melee attacks and therefore method would say not ranged. But was it so game breaking to have the ranger not get there additional ave 1000 damage per spell cast? ... They have delay 7-9 weapons, that normally factor to 4-5s with haste and so get between 3 and 4 autoattacks with 12-17s duration. So including 2 CA's over the duration as well. Thats 5-7 chime procs, at an average damage of 180 (around 1000 damage) over 15 ave seconds. So a grand increase of 66 dps over duration. Which if you consider chime wont be up all the time, thats going to come in at something like 40-50dps bonus.All of that is if the dirge is spec'ed for duration of the chime song, and has mythical or is in the group with the ranger. But in all honestly, not of a classes abilities should based on how another class has spec'ed for bonus abilities or equipment. That is part of the high end progression for the hardest encounters in the game, where your dps values should be above the norm.Something you could consider to allow fine tuning of the ranger class, is a personal buff that increases the damage of all arrows. So if an arrow is +100 piercing, and you have "Fletching Mastery" cast, then it adds 10% bonus to that value at app1 raising to 50% at master II.  It would be a static buff over all levels gained at  around the 48 special bonus mark. Then you can fine tune this damage bonus value without affecting other classes that use bows with autoattack. In the future it would also allow group advancement of this buff in distant future of lvl etc.
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:20 PM   #41
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
I totally disagree with this and I think you need to look into more data. Ill agree that we are right behind assassians and wizards but that is only every 3rd 4th pull and the majority of the raid we are trailing 1-2k.
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:30 PM   #42
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.

Are you even talking about the same game? I'm not sure where you are getting your "DATA' but its got to be the single most inaccurate data you could possibly collect.

To say that rangers parsing anywhere from 3-4K is on par, or right behind assassins parsing 4-6K is completely talking out of the other side of your head. Which is what all the complaining is about Aeralik. Unless the data you are looking at is coming from EoF, then you couldnt be more wrong about being "close". EoF pretty much nailed how the DPS classes should mix it up. I dont think one person could argue that fact.

Assassins are pretty much the golden child of EQ2 right now. In the mean time, Rangers have seen a very minor increase to their DPS, mostly due to upgaded CAs of the new tier. One things for sure, it certainly wasnt from the fact that we had weapon upgrades. In fact, we STILL dont have weapon upgrades. Lowering the performance of RSB to "bring it in line" when DPS classes were nearly perfectly balanced in T7 makes no sense what so ever other then to "justify" keeping T8 bows where they are. Making T8 completely worthless for rangers who actually played (raided) in T7.

Theres no improvement from T7 to T8... every other class saw a decent increase in their dps. Rangers have been asking to scale the arrow mechanice properly, since they have been out of wack for way too long. You make that adjustment, which gets rangers every excited that they might in fact be able to compete, only to find out thats not going to be the case, and the increase we asked for... well.. ISNT!

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Old 03-27-2008, 06:47 PM   #43
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
I highlighted the part you should note Aerlick. You just mentioned the problem without even knowing it. Why are parsing with Swashies? They do so much more than us. If we are parsing with Swashies then why not take 2 swashies instead of a ranger. Thank you for summing up the problem without even knowing it.
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:53 PM   #44
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
So we're behind two classes and even with one? You do realize that the wizard, assassin and swashbuckler all bring far more utility to a raid force then a ranger does? We bring DPS. Period. Those 3 classes have hate transfers, group buffs, apply poisons, procs and much more. We have Pathfinding, Hawk Attack (which IMHO isn't that useful) and a short term buff on Focus Aim that now also benefits melee classes.Based on this we should be even and probably slightly ahead of assassins and wizards and DEFINITELY ahead of swashbucklers. Why? Because as stated in my above paragraph the other 3 classes all bring more to a raid force via their buffs, procs etc...Personally, I'm not concerned with group DPS, as Aeralik stated group fights are so fast it's hard to get a good read on a classes DPS output based on groups.
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Old 03-27-2008, 07:15 PM   #45
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Aeralik, what I really don't understand is why the only data you appear to look at is parses. Surely you must have a mathematical model by which you can assess the DPS potential of each class at different gear levels.

The reason I ask this is because, based on my own math, assassins have a higher DPS potential from combat arts and from auto attack than rangers do. The CA part is more difficult for me to make a case for since I don't play an assassin, but conventional wisdom does hold that assassins do more CA damage than rangers so I don't think it's unreasonable to state that at best, rangers do the same CA damage as assassins, and at worst, they do less CA damage than assassins.

So, in the best case scenario where ranger CA damage is equivalent to assassin CA damage, then the auto attack damage potential of the two classes should be the same as well, since they are meant to be opposite sides of the same coin. However, the potential auto attack damage of the two classes is not equivalent, at least not according to the numbers listed on weapons in game.

In order for the stats listed on a weapon to mean anything, they must be affected by STR and +DPS the same way regardless of weapon type. Currently I believe this is the case on live, so that's the assumption I'm going to go with.

 

I wasn't intending to post this today so my selection of DW weapons isn't complete but it's close enough to prove my point. (Tables are adapted from Webin's 'bow list' post).

Fang of Ichor (Mythical) + Witchdoctor Doomblade = 7086 DPMEagle's Talon (Mythical) = 6389.56 DPM (a number which, given current ammo mechanics, has never been attainable)

Fang of Ichor (Fabled) + Betrayal's Song = 5898.28 DPMEagle's Talon (Fabled) = 4870 DPM (again, not currently achievable due to ammo mechanics)Rigid Scale Bow = 4696.23 DPM

The numbers for the mythical epics don't take into account the effects on them.

Now, parse data may not entirely support the disparities between potential ranger and assassin auto-attack DPS shown by these numbers, but parses do show a disparity (which you yourself mentioned in your post, Aeralik, when you said that rangers were behind assassins).

I would really love to know how mathematics support your current attempts at balancing rangers, especially since you are so vague about what "data" you are looking at and the wording of your posts always seems to point at parses being your sole data source.

Is the math in EQ2 so screwed up that players should just ignore any numbers given to them by the devs on weapons and the like? Or is there actually a problem here that you are overlooking in your fixation on parses? An answer either way would be appreciated.

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Old 03-27-2008, 07:46 PM   #46
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
Why are we only neck and neck with swashy and outclassed by wizzies and assassins when we have to pay plat for dps? None of them pay plat to get as much if not more dps than us. If you are going to keep nerfing out dps, get rid of our arrow costs. Completely blank them, don't reduce the costs, completely get rid of them. I could accept other classes outdpsing me IF I  DIDN'T HAVE TO PAY PLAT TO KEEP MY DPS JUST BELOW THEM!!!Just the 3 classes you mentioned out do rangers as far as utility; do they have to outdps us while not having anything that costs like our arrow costs? We should be above them at least for the amount of plat we have to pay just to try to keep up with swashies!
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:27 PM   #47
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
"I've been looking through the data again."Pictures or it isn't real."In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck. "Depends on the raid. Pretty sure the wizards are obviously the top DPS class in game."The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler."100% of the time? Really?It seems to me that you are basing your data off a raid force that is stacked a certain way.Just saying.
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:53 PM   #48
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.

Not attempting to de-rail the thread .. but since you brought it up. Where are Warlocks in this data? Do we fall in line even with Wizards (as we should)?

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Old 03-27-2008, 09:04 PM   #49
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Aeralik wrote:

...,The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler,...

Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

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Old 03-27-2008, 09:11 PM   #50
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ZababEW wrote:Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

 Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

2 things.1) The DPS tiers have been abandoned so stop bringing them up2) Swashys have very little utility with the way offensive/defensive skills debuffs are currently setup. I would bet Rangers have more utility with their new buffs than Swashys do now.
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:31 PM   #51
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Nere wrote:
Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.

Not attempting to de-rail the thread .. but since you brought it up. Where are Warlocks in this data? Do we fall in line even with Wizards (as we should)?

Be careful not to be quick to make assumptions.  Traditionally it was commonly accepted and originally designed so that rangers and assassins "should" fall in line even with one another.  Aeralik has pretty much stated in the above post that in actuality:

(assasins > rangers) + (rangers = swashbucklers) is "working as intended."

Lord only knows where the devs believe that warlocks should fit in at this point.  I'm curious on this point as well.

Now I still have some small hope that I've misinterpreted his comment, and that the data Aeralik is discussing above was pulled from his tests on the live servers.  Then it would be feasible that he's still working to bring rangers and assassins to parity, as they should be.  While the changes introduced so far may not be enough to achieve this end, it'd be encouraging to know that that's the ultimate goal.  I could continue playing confident that through a few more tweaks we'd end up back where we should be.

Unfortunately, given what we've seen so far, the latter possibility seems unlikely.

Assuming the worst case scenario, I'd like to pose the following question:  can anyone (including Aeralik or any other dev) think of a good reason why a leader would want to bring a ranger to a raid over any other DPS class at this point (including assassins, rogues, bards, sorcerors, conjurors, enchanters, brawlers, furies)?  Again, the lack of utility and added cost of playing a ranger make the class undesirable on raids.  The changes so far have done nothing to improve this.

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Old 03-27-2008, 09:37 PM   #52
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Computer MAn wrote:
ZababEW wrote:Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

 Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

2 things.1) The DPS tiers have been abandoned so stop bringing them up2) Swashys have very little utility with the way offensive/defensive skills debuffs are currently setup. I would bet Rangers have more utility with their new buffs than Swashys do now.

Why were the DPS tiers abandoned?  Not arguing that it isn't so, but don't understand why they'd give up their overall vision for the game?

And no, even with our new buff (singular), we still lag far behind swashies in terms of raid utility...if for no other reason than for our lack of aggro transfer.

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Old 03-27-2008, 09:39 PM   #53
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
I'm not saying I believe your data, but you seem to be stuck on using it as the primary basis for your decisions, so if we accept it as an accurate representation of reality just for the sake of argument, [Removed for Content]are rangers on par with swashbucklers?  Lol are you kidding me?  Swashbucklers have important debuffs, group AE immunity, and hate transfer that amount to a substantial amount of utility for them.  Rangers are about to have a short-duration group buff that, while decent, won't put them anywhere near the utility of a swash.  How could it be considered the "perfect balance" that rangers are on par with swashbucklers with respect to dps?
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:53 PM   #54
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
I'm not saying I believe your data, but you seem to be stuck on using it as the primary basis for your decisions, so if we accept it as accurate for the sake of argument, [Removed for Content]are rangers on par with swashbucklers?  Lol are you kidding me?  Swashbucklers have important debuffs, group AE immunity, and hate transfer that amount to a substantial amount of utility for them.  Rangers are about to have a short-duration group buff that, while decent, won't put them anywhere near the utility of a swash.  How could it be considered the "perfect balance" that rangers are on par with swashbucklers?

A related question:  what do we have that's so wonderful that assassins don't, which would warrant them being top DPS?  Understand, I am in NO way calling for an assassins nerf.  Assassins are where they should be.  Unfortunately, they're also where rangers should be.

And again, assassins have hate transfer and a killer melee buff, and cost much less to supply with arrows.  I'm willing to accept the added expense as a way of offsetting the advantage of being able to do damage at range (a dubious benefit in a raid setting).  But again, we see a class with greater utility doing greater damage.

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Old 03-27-2008, 10:08 PM   #55
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:14 PM   #56
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Computer MAn wrote:
ZababEW wrote:Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

 Hmm that isnt correct  ranger is T1 and swash is T2 .

2 things.1) The DPS tiers have been abandoned so stop bringing them up2) Swashys have very little utility with the way offensive/defensive skills debuffs are currently setup. I would bet Rangers have more utility with their new buffs than Swashys do now.
[Removed for Content], really.......really....shall we tally them up!
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:37 PM   #57
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Cochy are you seriously trying to tell us that Swashbuckler utility is less than Ranger utility?Swashbuckler:
  1. Hate Transfer
  2. Offensive Skills Debuff
  3. Defensive Skills Debuff
  4. DPS Debuff
  5. Mitigation Debuffs
  6. Snare with Resist Debuff.
  7. Swipe
  8. Buff Stripping Taunt
  9. AE Avoidance
Ranger:
  1. Defense Debuff
  2. Snare with Resist Debuff
  3. Accuracy Buff
You're right. Ranger utility is overpowered.As for the DPS Tiers they were abandoned so to speak awhile ago by the development team for SOE. Not by the players to define the DPS ranges certain classes fall into.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:44 PM   #58
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Go troll somewhere else, who cares abot people like you
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:46 PM   #59
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Corwinus wrote:
Go troll somewhere else, who cares abot people like you
bah ignore, it was not meant to be in this thread. Sorry
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Old 03-27-2008, 11:40 PM   #60
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Aeralik wrote:
I've been looking through the data again. I just don't see how you guys can say you are locked to t7 dps.  In a raid perspective you are not far behind the assassin.   wizard and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.  The ranger is right behind them with the swashbuckler.  In the raids its like almost perfect balance how they line up.  Somedays things shift around slightly but in general things look pretty much dead on.  This is one reason I'm trying to go with smaller changes rather than overshooting and having to scale back.Now looking at the group data you get a different perspective.  The rogues, assassins and bruisers definitely excel here but you are still neck and neck with the wizards and warlocks.  I've also noticed wizards complaining in group situations as well so you arent alone here.  Group fights are fast and furious no doubt about that and the top classes here definitely have a bit better setup for these situations but when you look at raids where the fights lengthen you see how they really fall into place.  All of this data is something I will keep analyzing for sure. This is why I am trying to keep to small adjustments like I have said in the past.  In the meantime though, we need less of these outrage threads because they do not end up helping you out since they are distracting while trying to find the few good suggestions from the level headed folks.
Where are you getting this data? Why have you not said where you are getting it? Why are you saying that we should be on par with swash and brigs? Is this the plan to make rangers with no or crappy utility to be on par with ones that have great utility? Do you think that rangers are overpowered or are you just trying to get the rangers to go away? I don't care about the plat cost, I don't care about having no utility. I only care about being on par with my evil counterparts. I am not asking to nerf any other class. I am only asking that you stop nerfing my class the class I have played for over 3 years. I am loyal to the point of cancelling my account$, because you are messing with us like you have a personal vendetta against us. I am not insinuating that you do but from this side of the looking glass it seems that way. Now for those that are trolling these forums to start something go away because some of you are so clueless about rangers you are only making yourselves look like an idiot. I don't presume to know everything about every class but I also don't go assuming and professing about them either.
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