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Old 02-28-2008, 09:54 PM   #1
Runewind

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This from the Allakhazam dev chat:[18:50] I am currently looking into some of the ranger issues.  The arrows will be made level 70 min level with a level 80 use level.  Overall they will get a slight rise to dps from combat arts and I added a bit of utility to them as well.If this means they will check at T8 and therefore bows will do the damage they should, I for one am happy. But we're holding you to this, Aeralik.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:14 PM   #2
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I'd really like a time frame.  Next month?  Next year?  10 years?

Happy it is getting worked on, and the 70 level arrow with 80 level usage, sounds perfect (assuming level 80 bows will do 100% with the level 70 arrow).

Glad our arts are getting increased, and am looking forward to seeing what utility we are getting.

Here's to hoping...

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Old 02-28-2008, 10:19 PM   #3
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Yeah I was wondering what level 80 use level meant exactly. What you said seems to make sense, but it also kind of sounds like hes saying you won't be able to use them until 80 which would seem like a crazy high nerf.I always thought a plus to ability range raid wide (and thus group wide) would be a neat in character buff for rangers. Like plus 5 range to all melee, ranged and spell casting.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:40 PM   #4
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Runewind wrote:
This from the Allakhazam dev chat:[18:50] I am currently looking into some of the ranger issues.  The arrows will be made level 70 min level with a level 80 use level.  Overall they will get a slight rise to dps from combat arts and I added a bit of utility to them as well.
I just don't get what he's saying here, and the answers don't look very reassuring.The arrows are going to be useable at level 80 only, but will be level 70 for damage calculations ? Are these new arrows, or are they changing the level 67 ones ? Does that mean anyone not at level 80 is going to have to use level 57 ammo instead ? If so, this is a *massive* nerf to everyone not at level 80.Or, is he saying that the ammo will be level 80 for damage calculation purposes, but can be used by anyone level 70 or above ? If so, this is *exactly* what Rangers have been asking for. Will this be a new recipe, or an automatic respec of the existing ferrite ones ?Also, what's this comment about CA DPS increase ? Ammo has *nothing* to do with CA damage. If they are increasing CA DPS that's nice (not that anyone asked for that), but don't use that as a bodge rather than fixing the underlying issue with ammo. But if they do fix ammo, then this is a nice cherry on top.The bit of utility is nice, but is it going to be useful ? Useful enough to get us onto raids rather than other one of the many other classes that can match our DPS ? We will have to wait and see I guess, but utility doesn't matter if you have DPS.I guess we'll just have to wait and see what turns up on the test server...whenever that might be...and take it from there. But I'm not holding my breath, there is nothing in that dev statement that reassures me at all.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:48 PM   #5
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I'm pretty sure what he means is the minimum level to use them will be 70 but the arrows will be used by the bow as if level 80. It's something and I'm happy to see that SOME fix is going in. As far as a time frame he said Gu44 I guess I forgot that part of the quote. So we're looking at about a month and a half.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:54 PM   #6
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Runewind wrote:
I'm pretty sure what he means is the minimum level to use them will be 70 but the arrows will be used by the bow as if level 80. It's something and I'm happy to see that SOME fix is going in. As far as a time frame he said Gu44 I guess I forgot that part of the quote. So we're looking at about a month and a half.
OK, so that would mean that all T8 weapons should do exactly the damage the stats say they should do.If true, this is absolutely fantastic news SMILEYSMILEY  I look forward to somebody testing it and posting findings in a month or so (my accounts will have expired by then) and if it all looks good it might just convince me to renew
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:01 PM   #7
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As with any arrow, the level at which you can use it is not the level at which it functions.

Level 55 Trueshot Arrows from the Tunare miracle, Level 67 ferrite arrows and Level 70 tenderwood arrows all function at level 60-69.  Since arrows have been assigned use-levels with a hidden function-level, Rangers have never really known what level their arrows actually are, making any concrete calculations about arrow level affecting bow damage impossible.  In reality, swapping any of the previously listed ammunition examples only changes your ranged damage based on the arrow's damage bonus; therefore, although they have vastly different minimum levels for use, they're all actually the same level.

If Aeralik honestly and truly is adding minor extra combat art damage, introducing ammunition that functions as level 80 and granting us the utility we've been crying for since the game's inception, I'll be both surprised and impressed.  I'm not holding my breath, though; and, although this would solve a lot of universal problems for the Ranger class, it doesn't solve the problem of poor and lazy itemization throughout RoK.  We also have no timetable for when these changes will be implemented, although previous posts from Aeralik state that our issues are too numerous to include between GU42 and GU43.  That claim in itself is outrageous, since these problems have existed long before the epic weapons were released.

If these changes are implemented in GU43, I might considering remaining a customer of SoE.  If not, I'll just wait for Warhammer, Age of Conan or go back to playing World of Warcraft.

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Old 02-28-2008, 11:05 PM   #8
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Well he confirmed it in the FFA chat after the dev chat. Need to be 70 to use them ,but will make level 80 bows work at their full potential. Calculate based on level 80.
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:28 PM   #9
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As I promised, here's the info we gleaned after the dev chat in the eq2-ffa channel with all the pointless chatter edited out, of course. And forgive my typos. It's not as easy as some think to type on a laptop, even with small fingers :p Aeralik, just to clarify on the arrows, did you mean that they would be useable from 70 and scale to 80 or only useable at 80? you can help clear up a questin in the ranger ww SMILEY<img src=" /> arrows are currently 67 to use which means a level 67 player can equip them. the arrows are rated level 70 though so for calculations and scaling they use level 70. the fix is basically the same they will be 70 to use but calculate based on level 80 im also giving them a 5 level leeway so fabled items which go above level 80 for a rating wont scale down Aeralik ummmm, small problem with that.  If lvl 67 arrows are actually lvl 70, how come when you equip lvl 67 arrows with an RSB, the /weapon damage of an RSB is lower then when you had no arrows equipped? rigid scale bow is level 74 technically so scales down to 70 Ok, in that case, that is mind blowing, but it does explain things... so a lvl 70 bow is actually lvl 74, but a lvl 67 arrow is lvl 70... got it... Dude, that is screwy Aeralik the only other thing all the rangers would like to know is if there is any significant number of other people's buffs that we will be able to benefit from it is not logical that so many buffs benefit melee but not ranged... why an earring can benefit melee but not ranged... we all know you have seen the lists. im gonna add rangers to some procs like the tradeskill rings but expect some changes to proc mechanicsEdit: No idea why there was so much space down here.
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:34 PM   #10
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Here is the full text of the question and answer:

Beele: Do the devs see it more important to keep ranger DPS down and give them more group/raid utility, or will there be an ammo fix so that in light of having very little utility Rangers can be mostly T1 DPS again?

I am currently looking into some of the ranger issues.  The arrows will be made level 70 min level with a level 80 use level.  Overall they will get a slight rise to dps from combat arts and I added a bit of utility to them as well.

so stayed tuned for gu44 there should be some nice changes for you guys SMILEY

And here is the clarification in FFA after the chat:

[17:51] arrows are currently 67 to use which means a level 67 player can equip them. the arrows are rated level 70 though so for calculations and scaling they use level 70. the fix is basically the same they will be 70 to use but calculate based on level 80

So it looks like in GU44 Arrows will finally work properly and based on Yellow text, wich I think was a sperate part of the addtions to Arrows, it looks like arrows will get some added benifits too.

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Old 02-29-2008, 12:18 AM   #11
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That sucks.  I just finished making my Aeralik Voodoo doll and I didn't get a chance to use it.   SMILEY
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:06 AM   #12
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Woot, level 80 arrows coming with GU 44, Finally.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:27 AM   #13
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Andok wrote:
That sucks.  I just finished making my Aeralik Voodoo doll and I didn't get a chance to use it.   SMILEY
I don't think I would go tossing that away just yet... SMILEY<img src=" />.Forgot to add: Trust, but verify.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:13 AM   #14
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Andok wrote:
That sucks.  I just finished making my Aeralik Voodoo doll and I didn't get a chance to use it.   SMILEY
Lies! I felt that sharp pain in my back!  Anyways another wonderful milestone reached now that I have my own voodoo doll SMILEY
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:50 AM   #15
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Amenti wrote:

If Aeralik honestly and truly is adding minor extra combat art damage, introducing ammunition that functions as level 80 and granting us the utility we've been crying for since the game's inception, I'll be both surprised and impressed.  I'm not holding my breath, though; and, although this would solve a lot of universal problems for the Ranger class, it doesn't solve the problem of poor and lazy itemization throughout RoK.  We also have no timetable for when these changes will be implemented, although previous posts from Aeralik state that our issues are too numerous to include between GU42 and GU43.  That claim in itself is outrageous, since these problems have existed long before the epic weapons were released.

If these changes are implemented in GU43, I might considering remaining a customer of SoE.  If not, I'll just wait for Warhammer, Age of Conan or go back to playing World of Warcraft.

I think that is a LITTLE harsh.  I have never been a big fan of Aeralik to be honest.  I had the misfortune of starting to read all of the realted Rangers boards in Decemeber and that was when the flame warns began HIGH SEASON.  That said I never saw him to lie.  He may have blown us off, told us we were "fine" when we were not (an oppinion not a lie) and he may have appeared to threaten us on occassion (lateral shifts anyone), but lie or deceive?  Haven't seen it.  From a business aspect it would be silly too.  The chat was on an independant board and the info is for all to see.  If he doesn't come through I am sure there would be heck to pay.

I did have one concern however.  when he said the following 

" im gonna add rangers to some procs like the tradeskill rings but expect some changes to proc mechanics"

What changes?  If there are changes are they just to how procs are done off of raid wide buffs or all procs?  Are the changes only going to be Ranger specific or are they going to apply to all classes that are procing off the buff?  Only asking this in terms of fairness.  It appears that the procs will be "reduced" in someway and in the interest of fairness such changes should A) apply to all classes and B) not effect soloing characters, so their own procs should not be effected.  There are players out there who prefer to solo or simply go with small groups and, just as there are Rangers who cry foul that PvP unfairly effected PvE, it would be sad if the "Raid" crowd unfairly effected the Solo and/or single group crowd.  I am however willing to wait and see.  If the gains are more than losses GREAT.  If it ends up balancing out though I will be cranky beyond belief.

Today I was called an "old school ranger or a masochist" by a guild mate earlier today when he commented on me not betraying yet due to all of the issues.  I told him I was giving it until GU 44, then Gisallo may have been going to the "dark side".  Being on a RP server that would have caused "issues" in my Guild.  I am glad that it appears that this will not be necessary.  That being said, just in case the change to proc mechanics is wickedly insane, I have my voodoo doll sitting next to the keyboard, the pins are sitting over an oil lamp to make sure they are hot and I have some plat in the bank to start replacing Adept 3's and Masters if I betray. 

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Old 02-29-2008, 05:35 AM   #16
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Nice to see that the arrow issue is being resolved, just hope they remember throwing daggers, shurikens etc when they impliment it.

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Old 02-29-2008, 05:39 AM   #17
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Greetings Aeralik. Please give us some details about your fix. This is of grave importance to the ranger community. We will all be very relieved if you can confirm that you are working on this, that it is scheduled for on of the next couple of updates, that "use level of 80" means that lvl 80 bows does full damage.You can go technical as some of us have been observing the arrow problem for a long time and are quite familliar with it.

Simply put: Please confirm what you said in the chat and give us some details. SMILEY

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Old 02-29-2008, 06:44 AM   #18
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I am pleased with the news if they come to pass the way I imagine!I have never been vocal on these issues (I just don't like to complain and some of the issues are non existant for my mostly soloing self) but raising CA damage a bit is exactly what I would have suggested. It seems that the lateral shift Aeralik was talking about will happen and that this so called shift relates to bows, not over all dps (wishful thinking?). I also think that the changes will make the dps gap between [Removed for Content] and fabled rangers shrink because bow itemization in RoK will actually be pretty good when the changes go in (right?).Hey Webin, re-sort that list :)
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:39 AM   #19
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RoXxer wrote:

Greetings Aeralik. Please give us some details about your fix. This is of grave importance to the ranger community. We will all be very relieved if you can confirm that you are working on this, that it is scheduled for on of the next couple of updates, that "use level of 80" means that lvl 80 bows does full damage.You can go technical as some of us have been observing the arrow problem for a long time and are quite familliar with it.

Simply put: Please confirm what you said in the chat and give us some details. SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />

Did you not read the first page of this thread? He already did all this. Level 67 arrows will be made into level 70 arrows and will let level 80 bows work at their full potential. We are getting some more utility. CA's are getting a little more damage and its ALL coming in GU 44. And the fact we relayed all this from a dev chat and his reply wasn't him saying its not true is also confirmation. Heres the official dev chat log as well.http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...hat_Feb_28_2008I can understand why some rangers may want up to "quintuple confirmation" but its quite clear.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:49 AM   #20
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Thanks for the link. Well I believe he will make those changes. The thing that worries me, is that when he makes these changes (fixing both arrows, boosting CA damage AND giving us utility), dps could improve more than some people expected and then we are in for another nerf..again.. And then the rollercoaster launches.... We have seen it happen several times. *worries too much* SMILEY
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:28 AM   #21
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
Amenti wrote:

If Aeralik honestly and truly is adding minor extra combat art damage, introducing ammunition that functions as level 80 and granting us the utility we've been crying for since the game's inception, I'll be both surprised and impressed.  I'm not holding my breath, though; and, although this would solve a lot of universal problems for the Ranger class, it doesn't solve the problem of poor and lazy itemization throughout RoK.  We also have no timetable for when these changes will be implemented, although previous posts from Aeralik state that our issues are too numerous to include between GU42 and GU43.  That claim in itself is outrageous, since these problems have existed long before the epic weapons were released.

If these changes are implemented in GU43, I might considering remaining a customer of SoE.  If not, I'll just wait for Warhammer, Age of Conan or go back to playing World of Warcraft.

I think that is a LITTLE harsh.  I have never been a big fan of Aeralik to be honest.  I had the misfortune of starting to read all of the realted Rangers boards in Decemeber and that was when the flame warns began HIGH SEASON.  That said I never saw him to lie.  He may have blown us off, told us we were "fine" when we were not (an oppinion not a lie) and he may have appeared to threaten us on occassion (lateral shifts anyone), but lie or deceive?  Haven't seen it.  From a business aspect it would be silly too.  The chat was on an independant board and the info is for all to see.  If he doesn't come through I am sure there would be heck to pay.

I did have one concern however.  when he said the following 

" im gonna add rangers to some procs like the tradeskill rings but expect some changes to proc mechanics"

What changes?  If there are changes are they just to how procs are done off of raid wide buffs or all procs?  Are the changes only going to be Ranger specific or are they going to apply to all classes that are procing off the buff?  Only asking this in terms of fairness.  It appears that the procs will be "reduced" in someway and in the interest of fairness such changes should A) apply to all classes and B) not effect soloing characters, so their own procs should not be effected.  There are players out there who prefer to solo or simply go with small groups and, just as there are Rangers who cry foul that PvP unfairly effected PvE, it would be sad if the "Raid" crowd unfairly effected the Solo and/or single group crowd.  I am however willing to wait and see.  If the gains are more than losses GREAT.  If it ends up balancing out though I will be cranky beyond belief.

Today I was called an "old school ranger or a masochist" by a guild mate earlier today when he commented on me not betraying yet due to all of the issues.  I told him I was giving it until GU 44, then Gisallo may have been going to the "dark side".  Being on a RP server that would have caused "issues" in my Guild.  I am glad that it appears that this will not be necessary.  That being said, just in case the change to proc mechanics is wickedly insane, I have my voodoo doll sitting next to the keyboard, the pins are sitting over an oil lamp to make sure they are hot and I have some plat in the bank to start replacing Adept 3's and Masters if I betray. 

Im also concerned with the comment of changes comming to procs. If the changes are made for all classes thats one thing, if this change is to single rangers out yet again then I feel as if we took another huge step backwards : ( But hopeful from now till GU 44 Aeralik will keep us informed as to some of the details with these changes.
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:29 AM   #22
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Thank you Aeralik, you have addressed the 3 primary concerns of the ranger community and gone a little bit further. This great news!

To those already worrying, speculating, etc about future the effect of the changes or future nerfs, why dont we just deal with what we know or what we have. When the changes go into effect, evaluate them, until then, I am excited for the update.

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Old 02-29-2008, 10:37 AM   #23
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Hmm. Sounds like I might have to actually work on the epic now! Figured my RSB would hold out for quite some time. =p
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:30 PM   #24
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Aeralik wrote:
Andok wrote:
That sucks.  I just finished making my Aeralik Voodoo doll and I didn't get a chance to use it.   SMILEY
Lies! I felt that sharp pain in my back!  Anyways another wonderful milestone reached now that I have my own voodoo doll SMILEY

haha!  SMILEY  I can't speak for the community as a whole but I think comments like this are great.  Its light hearted good humor fun that really helps to defuse the situation and put rangers at ease because it makes us feel like the person responsible for us actually does care about our gameplay experience!  All in all I think it does wonder for the dev/community relationship and no I'm not being sarcasctic I really do think that.

So it seems arrows are getting the attention they need which is fantastic, once I hit eighty my whole goal will be to get my epic now.  The only concern I have now, and it seems to be getting addressed somewhat, is procs.  I have all of this great gear in my bank for when I ding 79 thats got mezz procs, root procs, etc. (which is what rangers need in PvP because we HAVE to keep them at range or we are just screwed) but it all procs off of "primary melee" attacks.  My sugggestion is anything that has a "primary melee" weapon proc will also work off of our bows because if you think about it our "primary" weapon is our bow, not our sword/dagger.  I don't know much about coding but would that be a hard fix so when it says "primary weapon" for a ranger it counts our bow so we can use all of these great procs?  Classess like swashy/brigs/assassin are loving it because it procs for them just fine and when fighting a ranger they can keep us stunned or rooted with CA's AND procs that we have no chance of avoiding.  We can cure the root CA but then the proc hits and do to cool down timers for potions we can't cure the proc.

All in all sounds like the future might be a bit brighter for us!

p.s. can we get focus aim put back but in a reduced manner?  That'd be super!

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Old 02-29-2008, 01:42 PM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:
im gonna add rangers to some procs like the tradeskill rings but expect some changes to proc mechanics
This comment about proc mechanics changes worries me, too.  Is this going to be a change that (yet again) singles out rangers for a nerf/restriction or one that applies equally to all classes?  As it stands, there is really nothing overpowered about ranger procs compared to other classes' procs.  Ranger proc rates are normalized based on base weapon delay and base cast times, just like any other class.  In fact, I'm pretty sure proc rates off bow are actually slightly penalized relative to those off spells and melee weapons (go figure).  Thus, if this change to proc mechanics is one that singles out ranger proc rates, it's almost certainly going to be yet another arbitrary restriction placed on rangers that will make me wonder [Removed for Content]the devs are thinking hamstringing a top dps class in so many ways.  If, on the other hand, the mechanics change applies equally to all classes, then it's one that will have to be evaluated individually on its merits.Additionally, it's difficult for me to reconcile Aeralik's statements yesterday with his previous statements and even with themselves.  Previously, he said the fix we would see is not a straight bump of arrows to level 80, but yesterday that's exactly what he said we would see.  Perhaps he's changed his position since then, and if so, grats on manning up.  Additionally, however, he yesterday said, "Overall they will get a slight rise to dps from combat arts."  Does this mean he's nerfing ranger auto attack damage simultaneously with the arrow fix and increasing ranger CA damage, or is this a completely separate comment that stands on its own?  On the whole, the vagueness of his comments and the discrepancies between them make me worry about nerfs he left out of his comments yesterday.  A straight bump to arrow levels without a simultaneous nerf to auto attack is precisely what the ranger class needs to bring its auto attack damage up from level 70-quality to OMG level 80-quality, but is this what we're going to see?  It would be a shame (and inexcusable on Aeralik's part) for us to have waited all this time for a fix only to find out that rangers now need to upgrade to RoK bows just to maintain the auto attack damage they were previously doing using EoF bows.  Seriously, no nerfs please.  The ranger class can't take any more of them.So I have some cautious optimism for these changes, but I'm really worried about the nature of this proc mechanics change and about what wasn't mentioned.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'LereAlso, one more request, please make sure the high-end arrows from T7 (DT summoned, tenderwood) scale to level 80.  They are currently level 70, so this is consistent with your proposed fix of bumping level 70 arrows to level 80.  Additionally, you should make new high-end summoned arrows (i.e. level 80 to use and scale to 90 and upgraded from DT summoned) somehow available in RoK.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:09 PM   #26
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
Also, one more request, please make sure the high-end arrows from T7 (DT summoned, tenderwood) scale to level 80.  They are currently level 70, so this is consistent with your proposed fix of bumping level 70 arrows to level 80.  Additionally, you should make new high-end summoned arrows (i.e. level 80 to use and scale to 90 and upgraded from DT summoned) somehow available in RoK.

I don't see why we need any new summoned ammo. The existing arrows are being upgraded to 80, so bows will do their listed damage.

The whole point of "next tier" ammo was because of the way the damage was scaled back on end-game weapons, so if this mechanic is being removed we won't need T9 ammo.

We're finally getting to the point where a) your bow, b) your gear, c) your stats, and d) your skill are what determines your DPS and that's a good thing in my view.

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Old 02-29-2008, 03:30 PM   #27
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I highly doubt any of the current EoF or earlier summoning arrows will be leveled up. Those were not meant for level 80 bows because level 80 bows didn't exist. The new arrows that came out with RoK should have been for level 80 bows, which is what is being fixed. Now the ranger skill to summon arrows (Used Arrows) should be fixed as well in that same way because again, those are RoK arrows which are meant for RoK bows.In short everyone should be shelving all their EoF/KoS bows and arrows when this fix comes out, for the most part.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:49 PM   #28
MacDaddy62

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Raid-obtained arrows from T7 should still be relevant in T8.  If you look at every other category of gear, this is always the case.  Raid gear from the previous tier is as good as if not better than solo gear from the new tier.  This even applies to poisons if you look at the old Poisoned Seeds of the Tender, which is better than the new rare caustic.  This is approximately how it should be with arrows, too.  Don't arbitrarily single out arrows as the one category of gear for which the previous tier's raid drops are no longer relevant in the new tier.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:19 PM   #29
EQ2Luv

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Andok wrote:
That sucks.  I just finished making my Aeralik Voodoo doll and I didn't get a chance to use it.   SMILEY
I'm sure you can sell it to a monk.  Mass produce it, you can sell it to a lot of them. $.$
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:42 PM   #30
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Ammo is quite different, trying to compare them to BP and raid jewelry just doesn't make sense. At the very least DT summoned ammo needs to go away, that was two expansions ago and I rarely see anyone using KoS equipment anymore. Only time I see EoF raid gear is on rangers because of things like crit chance and ranged DA, other than that I haven't seen 1 single piece of  70 or lower equipment on a level 80. At most Raid obtained arrows from EoF should be on par, not better, than the proposed new level 70 arrows. Ferrite arrows are essentially "level 80 arrows" while all other arrows are "level 70" because of when they were introduced.
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