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Old 12-30-2007, 05:45 AM   #61
Hexus

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I understand your frustration, but there are only 2 (yes, only 2) classes that even have RA's if I recall, Assassin and Ranger.  We are the only ones that the RA/Usage change had any effect on as we were the only ones using massive quantities of arrows.  Arrow Mechanics effect us and nearly noone else whatsoever, as did this change previously.  I guess I should have made both statements to show my reasoning for saying it in the first place.

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Old 12-30-2007, 02:29 PM   #62
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I understand your side completely and didnt mean my post to come out quite like that. I just feel us rangers have suffered with the problems for so long that many are willing to suffer serious negatives just to get this fixed : (
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Old 12-30-2007, 08:39 PM   #63
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Current Example of Tier 7 Raid Fabled Bow versus Tier 8 Raid Fabled Bow:Examples using /weapon command:No Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 805-3218Dragonhawk 841-3363As it should be, the Dragonhawk is a Tier 8 Fabled Bow and should be rated higher for perspective damage.Deathtoll summoned Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 869-3093Dragonhawk 784-2753The arrow mechanics come into play. Remember this is a raid-week lockout zone and a rather rare drop to get this ammunition in the first place.Crafted lvl 67 bodkin Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 892-3116Dragonhawk 807-2776This is the best Player-Crafted ammunition one can buy, level 67, and because of the mechanics you can get more damage with it from the Tier 7 Fabled Bow.Basically you downgrade your damage by getting the New Higher Damage Rating Bow because of the spread between Ammunition Level and Bow Level.

One point which is not covered by /weapon and does effect potential damage noticeably, at least on long fights with high level mobs: the summoned ammo is +15% to hit and the bodkins are only +10%.  I admit I haven't done the math, but I think that it means the summoned ammo will actually do about the same damage overall on a parse as the bodkins.  Makes those free arrows just that much more valuable to people that go through 1000+ arrows in a "short" raid (FTH, not EH).
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:55 PM   #64
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How can you possible use 10 stacks of arrows in FTH?  I am top 1,2,3 of the parse and use about HALF of that... on average my dps is 2500-3200..

crazy..

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Old 12-31-2007, 04:56 PM   #65
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I just hope that they can put the fun back into the class. However fixing spell procs, itemization and bow mechanics sounds like a project so complex it will take the better part of the year.

If the above poster is correct that he is still in the top 1-2 dps positions on his raid it sounds like the raid level ranger isn't hurting all that much, but the mid range ranger suffers a lot,  i realize i could just be a bad player but i find myself struggling just to keep of with the paladin that i group with.  That said...how many rangers are there? Ranger T8 adept1's on my server are selling for roughly 2-3x's more than they do for my monk or fury. Even before the expansion i was able to buy pretty much all my t7 master1's for under 6pp, except for my ranger whom i was only able to buy a couple that cheap..most were 24pp plus. Oh well at least i can be happy that my ranger is my best harvesting mule.

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Old 12-31-2007, 10:00 PM   #66
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You should also know that while raiding rangers are able to do 2k to 3k+ on average in t8 raid zones, assassins, wizards, warlocks, swashies are doing 4k to 5k+ and that and other classes like chanters, brigands, monks, brawlers, etc. are doing 2k to 3k+, so no matter what anyone says in top tier raiding with the top classes the ranger falls behind alot in the dps tree behind the other dps classes that have some ulitity or something to offer a raid

So rangers are really lacking behind in the dps class while we have no utility we can just barely keep up with ulitity classes that offer more to raids than just ranger dps which cant bring the dps anymore compared to other dps classes

With all the nerfs to the class it made us so gimped, if they would of just left it alone like it was intended than the other classes would of caught up eventually or been close to where a none ulitity class should be on the dps chart

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Old 01-01-2008, 03:52 PM   #67
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Yeah and look at all the money wizzies have to spend on arrows to get that high end DPS...wait...
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:18 PM   #68
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Exactly, our ONE and ONLY job on any raid is DPS.  Pure and Simple.  We give no buffs that work during raid fights, our debuffs are laughable at best overall and especially when you start comparing them to other classes.  We have no hate transfer.  ALL WE BRING IS DPS, and if we aren't one of the people fighting for 1-2 on the parse (Always) then something is wrong and someone is shortsighted.I keep seeing people saying "Rangers are doing fine on the parse..."  Really?  Are they still using T7 bows with T7 Arrows?  I'll bet anything that they are.  We are crippled by a design flaw, don't get the buffs that other classes do because they were designed for melee rather than Ranged (read the whole beginning post again, it wasn't just about arrows...).I really don't know any other way to compare it......When about 50% of the top tier raiding community raids without rangers, their rangers betray to assassins, and hardly any guilds are recruiting rangers because they have 0 utility and they can get the same dps out of a class WITH some utility that benefits more from the buffs they are giving, how could you not say there is something wrong here and get to work fixing it?-Hexus Lupis-
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Old 01-02-2008, 11:11 PM   #69
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What i was too chicken [I cannot control my vocabulary] to say in my original post cause I HATE getting flamed is this:We are a flawed class because 2% of the rangers on the game KNOW there class. meaning they know how to utilize timing, bow and arrow mechanics, get the uber poisons, etc.These rangers "screw" ( and I really hate using that term but essentially that's what is happening) the rest of us because they are that good.  The whole reason we got nerfed is because on PVP we were just OWNING...end of story.  That makes it absolutely no fun for ne1 when they just get ambushed by a ranger and lose whatever they have on them (unsure of how PVP mechanics work but I'm sure you don't just go and randomly kill people for fun...everything comes down to money in the end)Anyway so if they change arrow mechanics for rangers here they have to change it there.  If they do this to rangers here they have to that to rangers there.  If they start "giving us back" our dps then the same problem will occur then you'll have everyone screaming that rangers are too powerful then well be right back here again.You know if it's so hard to fix the rangers mechanics just get rid of the class all together.  Cause as soon as we get fixed were going down the toilet again because the ubah rangers will be back at it ruining it for the rest of us average joes.  (thus I've now said EVERYONE on this forum is average and suxors /sarcasm off)And now i get flamed....
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:32 AM   #70
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Azrael_888 wrote:
What i was too chicken [I cannot control my vocabulary] to say in my original post cause I HATE getting flamed is this:We are a flawed class because 2% of the rangers on the game KNOW there class. meaning they know how to utilize timing, bow and arrow mechanics, get the uber poisons, etc.These rangers "screw" ( and I really hate using that term but essentially that's what is happening) the rest of us because they are that good.  The whole reason we got nerfed is because on PVP we were just OWNING...end of story.  That makes it absolutely no fun for ne1 when they just get ambushed by a ranger and lose whatever they have on them (unsure of how PVP mechanics work but I'm sure you don't just go and randomly kill people for fun...everything comes down to money in the end)Anyway so if they change arrow mechanics for rangers here they have to change it there.  If they do this to rangers here they have to that to rangers there.  If they start "giving us back" our dps then the same problem will occur then you'll have everyone screaming that rangers are too powerful then well be right back here again.You know if it's so hard to fix the rangers mechanics just get rid of the class all together.  Cause as soon as we get fixed were going down the toilet again because the ubah rangers will be back at it ruining it for the rest of us average joes.  (thus I've now said EVERYONE on this forum is average and suxors /sarcasm off)And now i get flamed....

Ok, not a flame, I think, but just some simple facts for ya.

Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP.  PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE.  To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.

And yes, on PvP we simply kill each other for fun!  Yes, a losing player has a chance to drop coin loot if they are carrying any on them (you learn to bank early and often to avoid this) and the occasional item might drop as well, but nothing over treasured, and  only one item at a time, as far as I know.

Current Arrow mechanics were a quick fix when the MC arrow recipes were taken out.  I really don't think this was done as a deliberate attempt to lower ranger's DPS, as DEV's say they have it on their list of things needing fixing.

Of course, to us rangers, with the release of ROK, the urgency we wish the Dev's would fix this has increased tenfold.  As to how it relates to PvP, I guarantee ya, we will have our own set of damage ranges.

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Old 01-03-2008, 05:29 AM   #71
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Azrael_888 wrote:
What i was too chicken [I cannot control my vocabulary] to say in my original post cause I HATE getting flamed is this:We are a flawed class because 2% of the rangers on the game KNOW there class. meaning they know how to utilize timing, bow and arrow mechanics, get the uber poisons, etc....(thus I've now said EVERYONE on this forum is average and suxors /sarcasm off)And now i get flamed....
Indeed the problem is that you are probably more right than you know. Except for the part about everyone on this forum being average or below. We're on this forum to find out how to be better than average, and the average player doesn't bother looking at the official forums, they're too filled with flames and tirades to be useful ot tolerable for many. The part you are right about is the 2% number. The difference is Ranger is a tough class to play well. But on the other hand there are classes that are hard to play, but not as hard. Probably 5% of monks are played well, 10% of Templars.... etc.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:48 PM   #72
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Azrael_888 wrote:
What i was too chicken [I cannot control my vocabulary] to say in my original post cause I HATE getting flamed is this:We are a flawed class because 2% of the rangers on the game KNOW there class. meaning they know how to utilize timing, bow and arrow mechanics, get the uber poisons, etc.These rangers "screw" ( and I really hate using that term but essentially that's what is happening) the rest of us because they are that good.  The whole reason we got nerfed is because on PVP we were just OWNING...end of story.  That makes it absolutely no fun for ne1 when they just get ambushed by a ranger and lose whatever they have on them (unsure of how PVP mechanics work but I'm sure you don't just go and randomly kill people for fun...everything comes down to money in the end)Anyway so if they change arrow mechanics for rangers here they have to change it there.  If they do this to rangers here they have to that to rangers there.  If they start "giving us back" our dps then the same problem will occur then you'll have everyone screaming that rangers are too powerful then well be right back here again.You know if it's so hard to fix the rangers mechanics just get rid of the class all together.  Cause as soon as we get fixed were going down the toilet again because the ubah rangers will be back at it ruining it for the rest of us average joes.  (thus I've now said EVERYONE on this forum is average and suxors /sarcasm off)And now i get flamed....
While the above is, in part, true, why hasn't this same logic been applied to other classes?  Every dps class has people who play it to its fullest potential and have all the buffs and gear and thus do really great dps for that class, so why haven't those classes been nerfed on that basis.  The answer, I believe, is two-fold.1.  Ranger is an arguably flawed class in the sense that it needs such a large dps advantage over any other class in order to be desirable, given that it has no utility.  The problem here is that when rangers have been given this dps advantage in the past, other classes have complained (unjustifiably) because they can no longer compete with rangers on the dps parse.  This leads to rangers getting nerfed and becoming [Removed for Content] again because they do less or as much or just marginally more dps than other classes that also bring a lot of utility.  Either the devs need to man up and give rangers the dps advantage they need and have the balls to stick to their guns about it, or else they need to give rangers significant utility (in which case rangers would still need better dps than what they have now).  Appropriate utility for a ranger would include scout equivalents of wizards' group spell proc and Rays of Disintegration, as rangers belong primarily in a scout dps group.2.  When rangers have been good in the past, the mechanics that have made them good have been ones that have made it possible for a relatively large number of them to be good.  On the other hand, elite dps for other classes has generally only come through the acquisition of lots of high-end gear, particularly things like Resplendent Robe of Battle and Robe of Al'Kabor.  Unfortunately, such high-end gear is relatively sparse for rangers, and they do not have access to anything like those avatar robes.  Thus, when you take away from rangers the unique things they had that made them good (i.e. high accuracy, melee weapons proccing off bow), they are screwed because they are now disadvantaged in many ways and advantaged in no ways.  The solution here is to bring them up to par in the ways in which they are screwed.  This means fixing ranger itemization by putting more ranged bonuses on gear and making RoK bows better (even ignoring broken arrow mechanics, RoK bows suck compared to RoK melee weapons), fixing the myriad melee-only buffs to also work off bow, and improving ranger AA's to actually give them 140 points of meaningful dps AA's (which they are not even close to having atm).-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:41 PM   #73
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Quit trying to blame everything on PvP.  You think your getting the shaft on carebear servers, try waking up one day to find they nerfed you again and by the way didnt say anything about it.......two words.....Focus Aim. 
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:25 PM   #74
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[email protected] wrote:
Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP.  PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE.  To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]
I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:06 PM   #75
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I agree with Azleya on this one, all classes have players who know how to play the class and others that don't.

However, one significant difference for rangers is our complete reliance on gear...specifically : Bow, Arrows and Poisons. Unfortunately, the gear we need to allow us to hit the top of the DPS parse is both hard to obtain and rare (EH Scale and recipe, DT summoned bow) It is ironic that we have a new expansion and increase in XP/AA level cap, yet the ranger community because of flawed arrow mechanics are still using bows from KoS / EoF (Ghostly Bow or RSB). Honestly, this is [Removed for Content] considering the amount of effort made by the ranger community to higlight these issues - prior to the expansion.

So what do we actually get in RoK : Crappy bows and still broken arrow mechanics...hey, but they did throw us a bone with +ranged and ranged crit modifiers. However, melee classes get more and better melee modifiers plus they have the some decent easily obtained weapons - Anaphalaxis and Cartoidcutter...to name a few. There is not one decent bow available in RoK that even compares with those from KoS / EoF (Ghostly Bow, Raincaller and RSB)...which IMHO is pretty sad.

So basically we are the gimped redheaded stepchild class of EQ2...a class with pretty much zero utility, sub par dps because of flawed arrow mechanics and the lack / difficulty in obtaining the high end gear, expensive to play because of arrow / poison costs.

Yet through it all...I still love playing my Ranger

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Old 01-09-2008, 11:09 PM   #76
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Krakelkrak wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP.  PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE.  To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]
I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.
They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.
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Old 01-10-2008, 08:41 AM   #77
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Odawnus Haste wrote:
Krakelkrak wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP.  PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE.  To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]
I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.
They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.
Perhaps I should have elaborated. The pvp ranger whines were largely about the autoattack damage and about how ranged autoattack was too powerful. Double attack and crit percentages were never a problem on pve servers AFAICT, ranged AA just isn't twice as effective as melee AA. For up-front burst dps in pvp it came close to being that, however. Of course with the new long delay melee weps that has changed on pvp too even if focus aim had never been taken out and the new pvp problem is going to be double melee crits for 3000+ damage  :p What I was suggesting was that the itemization dev thinks ranged AA is twice as good as melee AA because of pvp whines. Or can you think of another reason for him to think that?
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:07 PM   #78
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Krakelkrak wrote:
Odawnus Haste wrote:
Krakelkrak wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP.  PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE.  To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]
I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.
They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.
Perhaps I should have elaborated. The pvp ranger whines were largely about the autoattack damage and about how ranged autoattack was too powerful. Double attack and crit percentages were never a problem on pve servers AFAICT, ranged AA just isn't twice as effective as melee AA. For up-front burst dps in pvp it came close to being that, however. Of course with the new long delay melee weps that has changed on pvp too even if focus aim had never been taken out and the new pvp problem is going to be double melee crits for 3000+ damage  :p What I was suggesting was that the itemization dev thinks ranged AA is twice as good as melee AA because of pvp whines. Or can you think of another reason for him to think that?

Maybe because rangers have always had poor itemization i.e. Melee weapons only give us stats, 99% of the proc jewelry doesnt benefit us. Im still using T7 gear even tho I have T8 gear, the T7 gear just does more DPS. If people are crying about 3k+ autos then they need to gear up, you should have a good amount of hp now. Not every spec works for pvp, if you dont spec for HP then dont whine cause its your fault. DA is mostly luck in pvp unless you have an illusionist, if you a bard then you can up your chances a bit but its still nothing to rely on unless you have the Full EoF bonus. Most pvp fights last only a matter of seconds unless in group pvp. Stop acting like range DA isnt overpowered, have you ever buffed up to 80+ range DA? Well I have and its pretty ridiculous what kind of DPS you can pull even in RoK. DA is fine as it is, yea i would like to see more but wouldnt everybody. They need to fix ammo and give our CA's more damage. Oh yea just to let you know there are mobs on the pvp server, which makes it just like pve except as soon as your engage with another player everything is downscaled and put in the pvp ruleset, even if you are still fighting mobs which still hit you for the same amount.

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Old 01-10-2008, 11:02 PM   #79
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Odawnus: ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? Okay, I honestly was giving the whole pvp vs. pve theory the cold shoulder; UNTIL I read your post.

1) SPEC FOR HP: I'm sorry I do not know a single PVE ranger that will ever, ever choose to spec for HP. However, it DOES explain the freaking drops I have been seeing in raid. STA + INT.. ooo. STA + INT + AGI!! OMG, now we are talking!! Cuz everyone knows how much agi helps the rangers since.. never. Here I been asking the devs to explain why all this fabled ranged gear has lost it's strength. Now, it makes perfect sense!! PVP RANGERS spec and are looking for HP gear!! I should have just asked you.

2) 80% DA for rangers: Please tell me you are lying. In PVE rangers have been very, very lucky in the past to get more than 8% DA from their aa's. Yes, even with an illusionist, the TOP I have ever seen is somewhere between 33 and 40% Please, please give us a hint where we can find buffs and gear that will give us 80% DA!! UNLESS you are specifically talking about PVP rangers. Even then.. wowo.. DEVS [Removed for Content] listen up.. PVE rangers WANT WANT WANT 80% DA buffed; Odawnus has now opened up our eyes and I want to know how to get spec'd/geared/buffed for 80% DA in PVE.

This week I got a helm upgrade: I was tickled to death to see both strength and +4 to range crit on it. Last nite another scout helm dropped... almost duplicate stats except for effects. Get this: + 4 double attack and +4 melee crit. I thought to myself, why? What could possibly be so over powering about giving rangers the same stats as the scout melee gear??

 Then a jerk like you comes here talking about getting maxed health spec'd and 80% DA buffed on PVP and it all makes sense.. not. Now I really have to know; what the heck is going on?? It is truly starting to sound like PVP rangers are in a sense 'overpowered', but, it is not AT ALL the same way on PVE. So, if you don't have a clue how bad it is; if you are not fighting dragons instead of each other; if you aren't being outparsed by illusionists, mages, and all the rest of the scouts .. then you need not post telling us how 'easy' it is to 'beat' other classes.

I am not here to start a war between PVP and PVE, but, it really does appear, if what Odawnus says is all 'truths', that PVP rangers are overpowered and PVE rangers are seriously suffering from itemization, mechanics, at least 5 broken spells (Stream, Hawk, Surveil, Amazing Arrow and Coverage); procs from gear, player buffs and oh wait.. that wasn't enough.. let's strip procs off melee weapons too; cuz those rangers are just sooo overpowered!! Then, big, bad Odawnus pops his head in here and tells us to quit crying!! We just do not know how to play our class! Buahahaha.

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Old 01-10-2008, 11:29 PM   #80
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[email protected] wrote:

Odawnus: ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? Okay, I honestly was giving the whole pvp vs. pve theory the cold shoulder; UNTIL I read your post.

1) SPEC FOR HP: I'm sorry I do not know a single PVE ranger that will ever, ever choose to spec for HP. However, it DOES explain the freaking drops I have been seeing in raid. STA + INT.. ooo. STA + INT + AGI!! OMG, now we are talking!! Cuz everyone knows how much agi helps the rangers since.. never. Here I been asking the devs to explain why all this fabled ranged gear has lost it's strength. Now, it makes perfect sense!! PVP RANGERS spec and are looking for HP gear!! I should have just asked you.

2) 80% DA for rangers: Please tell me you are lying. In PVE rangers have been very, very lucky in the past to get more than 8% DA from their aa's. Yes, even with an illusionist, the TOP I have ever seen is somewhere between 33 and 40% Please, please give us a hint where we can find buffs and gear that will give us 80% DA!! UNLESS you are specifically talking about PVP rangers. Even then.. wowo.. DEVS [Removed for Content] listen up.. PVE rangers WANT WANT WANT 80% DA buffed; Odawnus has now opened up our eyes and I want to know how to get spec'd/geared/buffed for 80% DA in PVE.

This week I got a helm upgrade: I was tickled to death to see both strength and +5 to range crit on it. Last nite another scout helm dropped... almost duplicate stats except for effects. Get this: + 4 double attack and +4 melee crit. I thought to myself, why? What could possibly be so over powering about giving rangers the same stats as the scout melee gear??

 Then a jerk like you comes here talking about getting maxed health spec'd and 80% DA buffed on PVP and it all makes sense.. not. Now I really have to know; what the heck is going on?? It is truly starting to sound like PVP rangers are in a sense 'overpowered', but, it is not AT ALL the same way on PVE. So, if you don't have a clue how bad it is; if you are not fighting dragons instead of each other; if you aren't being outparsed by illusionists, mages, and all the rest of the scouts .. then you need not post telling us how 'easy' it is to 'beat' other classes.

I am not here to start a war between PVP and PVE, but, it really does appear, if what Odawnus says is all 'truths', that PVP rangers are overpowered and PVE rangers are seriously suffering from itemization, mechanics, at least 5 broken spells (Stream, Hawk, Surveil, Amazing Arrow and Coverage); procs from gear, player buffs and oh wait.. that wasn't enough.. let's strip procs off melee weapons too; cuz those rangers are just sooo overpowered!! Then, big, bad Odawnus pops his head in here and tells us to quit crying!! We just do not know how to play our class! Buahahaha.

Wow, you truly read my post the entire wrong way. I have the exact same stuff you can get in game, im exile i dont get uber pvp items. For one when I said spec for hp I was talking about AA not gear also I was talking about how he was referring to all the post on the PVP boards like 2-3 months back about ranger being overpowered and one/two shotting people. Which was made by people that play dps spec'd and not spec'd for survivalibility. Which if you are a Wiz/War if you not spec'd for STA to get manashield then you will just be the fodder of the server. Also not like we raid in stupid groups but we have tried things out to see if they stack. Illusionary arm and double attack buffs do stack, so 2 illy's = 50%, 18% You can get from Eof and desceration bracelet, 8% from AA, 10% from bard, thats how easily u can get 80%, sure its not good raid setup but just try it out to see how you parse. If you think more DA will save our class well more power to you, but I on the other hand think its a much bigger picture than that. Assassins sure dont rely on DA to put out big numbers so why should we. L2Read cuz im pretty sure i was complaining about item procs, and melee weapons being useless other than for stats.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:45 PM   #81
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I apologize Odawnus; I guess I did read your original post the wrong way. I honestly did not know that illusionists can stack their double attack buffs and bards.. those are those things that are in MT and ST groups for hate, right? Hehe SMILEY.

 Months and months of nerf after nerf and years of being subjected to the 'balancing' yo-yo have left me ready to strangle someone. I wish they could just get it in their heads where rangers should be vs no utility and paying for our damage; put us there and keep us there. I apologize again for lashing out at you. I do still see it as ironic that new gear is more STA related and PVP rangers go down HP lines and some of the various other ironies I noticed in your post.  

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Old 01-10-2008, 11:50 PM   #82
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DA is not a problem, what is a problem is jewelry procs, ammo, ca damage, utility and +range. All jewelry that procs off melee should proc off range dmg also. Ammo yea we all know so im not going to even get into it. CA damage is just horrible, range CA and melee CA are just the worst for any DPS class.  For a class that basically relies on bow auto damage why isnt there more +range. If not +range add items with +hit% or add it to our buffs. I mean why not every other class can upgrade their CA's which is the bulk of their damage which also allows them to up the hit bonus. Right now you rely on DA because it ups your DPS a great amount, but im pretty sure if they would fix the others things you would be pretty satisfied without it.

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Old 01-11-2008, 12:01 AM   #83
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[email protected] wrote:

I apologize Odawnus; I guess I did read your original post the wrong way. I honestly did not know that illusionists can stack their double attack buffs and bards.. those are those things that are in MT and ST groups for hate, right? Hehe SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15">.

 Months and months of nerf after nerf and years of being subjected to the 'balancing' yo-yo have left me ready to strangle someone. I wish they could just get it in their heads where rangers should be vs no utility and paying for our damage; put us there and keep us there. I apologize again for lashing out at you. I do still see it as ironic that new gear is more STA related and PVP rangers go down HP lines and some of the various other ironies I noticed in your post.  

As a ranger you dont really need to go down HP lines unless you lack it. If you have 6k hp at lvl 80 then you need more HP and have no room to complain if you get 2 shotted by people. Which people on pvp were complaining mostly mages that had like 4k hp complaining rangers are overpowered because double attack would 1 shot them basically. Which DA for the solo ranger is hard to come by, so it really just got blown out of hand by the people with the pitch forks just trying to get us nerfed. Which ended with focus aim being nerfed.
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Old 01-11-2008, 03:50 AM   #84
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Odawnus Haste wrote:
Krakelkrak wrote:
Odawnus Haste wrote:
Krakelkrak wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP.  PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE.  To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]
I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.
They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.
Perhaps I should have elaborated. The pvp ranger whines were largely about the autoattack damage and about how ranged autoattack was too powerful. Double attack and crit percentages were never a problem on pve servers AFAICT, ranged AA just isn't twice as effective as melee AA. For up-front burst dps in pvp it came close to being that, however. Of course with the new long delay melee weps that has changed on pvp too even if focus aim had never been taken out and the new pvp problem is going to be double melee crits for 3000+ damage  :p What I was suggesting was that the itemization dev thinks ranged AA is twice as good as melee AA because of pvp whines. Or can you think of another reason for him to think that?

Maybe because rangers have always had poor itemization i.e. Melee weapons only give us stats, 99% of the proc jewelry doesnt benefit us. Im still using T7 gear even tho I have T8 gear, the T7 gear just does more DPS. If people are crying about 3k+ autos then they need to gear up, you should have a good amount of hp now. Not every spec works for pvp, if you dont spec for HP then dont whine cause its your fault. DA is mostly luck in pvp unless you have an illusionist, if you a bard then you can up your chances a bit but its still nothing to rely on unless you have the Full EoF bonus. Most pvp fights last only a matter of seconds unless in group pvp. Stop acting like range DA isnt overpowered, have you ever buffed up to 80+ range DA? Well I have and its pretty ridiculous what kind of DPS you can pull even in RoK.

[snip] 

I don't understand what you're saying, sorry. When you say ranged DA is overpowered, just above, do you mean in pve or pvp? You seem to be talking about pvp above yet argue that that dev nerfed ranged crit and DA on equipment because of pve? But ranged AA isn't twice as good as melee AA in pvp, is it?

I'm a pvp ranger btw so no need to explain the pvp perspective. You won't see me complain about overpowered melee AA either. But I promise you the whiners will. (That's what the ':p' was supposed to indicate)

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Old 01-11-2008, 06:13 AM   #85
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Well, it looks as if those who predicted that things would be nerfed when they fix our broken arrow mechanics were correct. Aeralik finally responded in a post on eq2flames and stated that the ranger class is "far from bad off". He admitted bow mechanics were messed up (yeah he said bow, not arrows) and that there will be a coming fix, but, we should expect a "lateral shift" along with it. Looks as tho they will fix the arrows while getting out the 'ol rangers need more nerfing bat. I cannot say how deeply disappointing this is.
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Old 01-11-2008, 06:38 AM   #86
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Krakelkrak wrote:
Odawnus Haste wrote:
Krakelkrak wrote:
Odawnus Haste wrote:
Krakelkrak wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP.  PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE.  To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]
I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.
They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.
Perhaps I should have elaborated. The pvp ranger whines were largely about the autoattack damage and about how ranged autoattack was too powerful. Double attack and crit percentages were never a problem on pve servers AFAICT, ranged AA just isn't twice as effective as melee AA. For up-front burst dps in pvp it came close to being that, however. Of course with the new long delay melee weps that has changed on pvp too even if focus aim had never been taken out and the new pvp problem is going to be double melee crits for 3000+ damage  :p What I was suggesting was that the itemization dev thinks ranged AA is twice as good as melee AA because of pvp whines. Or can you think of another reason for him to think that?

Maybe because rangers have always had poor itemization i.e. Melee weapons only give us stats, 99% of the proc jewelry doesnt benefit us. Im still using T7 gear even tho I have T8 gear, the T7 gear just does more DPS. If people are crying about 3k+ autos then they need to gear up, you should have a good amount of hp now. Not every spec works for pvp, if you dont spec for HP then dont whine cause its your fault. DA is mostly luck in pvp unless you have an illusionist, if you a bard then you can up your chances a bit but its still nothing to rely on unless you have the Full EoF bonus. Most pvp fights last only a matter of seconds unless in group pvp. Stop acting like range DA isnt overpowered, have you ever buffed up to 80+ range DA? Well I have and its pretty ridiculous what kind of DPS you can pull even in RoK.

[snip] 

I don't understand what you're saying, sorry. When you say ranged DA is overpowered, just above, do you mean in pve or pvp? You seem to be talking about pvp above yet argue that that dev nerfed ranged crit and DA on equipment because of pve? But ranged AA isn't twice as good as melee AA in pvp, is it?

I'm a pvp ranger btw so no need to explain the pvp perspective. You won't see me complain about overpowered melee AA either. But I promise you the whiners will. (That's what the ':p' was supposed to indicate)

Its overpowered in the sense that  it wasnt made to be relied on for dps. Ranger AA is the bulk of our damage, sure we wouldnt see it as a problem since it helps us out. Lets say DA worked the opposite way, instead of on AA it doubled attack on CAs, i.e. assassins could decap twice instead of once. This would be overpowered since the bulk of their damage comes from CAs. Since you play on pvp you probably remember the brigand pvp breastplate that added 800 damage to malicious assault, which when doubled up it would basically do like 4k damage. So people usually see rangers have double up but on a much larger scale, since we dont have to wait for cool downs we just have to wait another 3-4 seconds and wham another double up. So basically if we relied on CAs like most other classes then yes range DA would be the exact same as melee DA, but since our class is backwards compared to most of the other classes you have to realize why range DA is less common than melee DA. So in a way you can say rangers are the reason for there being more melee DA than range DA. Hopefully you can see what im getting at, but our class is just poorly designed and it needs a revamp instead of quick fixes here and there. I would consider adding more range DA just another quick fix. The day CoB and many other items and buffs help us out will be truly a great day for us rangers.

 Oh to answer your question about range AA being twice as good as melee AA in pvp? I would have to say it is but you wont really think so until you get a good bow, but even so other classes CAs are just as good when added with the time between auto attacks. I.E. I auto attack an assassin for 2k, when he could easily do 3k damage to me with one or two CAs before I can get another auto attack off.

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Old 01-11-2008, 07:31 AM   #87
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Odawnus Haste wrote:
Krakelkrak wrote:

I don't understand what you're saying, sorry. When you say ranged DA is overpowered, just above, do you mean in pve or pvp? You seem to be talking about pvp above yet argue that that dev nerfed ranged crit and DA on equipment because of pve? But ranged AA isn't twice as good as melee AA in pvp, is it?

I'm a pvp ranger btw so no need to explain the pvp perspective. You won't see me complain about overpowered melee AA either. But I promise you the whiners will. (That's what the ':p' was supposed to indicate)

[snip]

 Oh to answer your question about range AA being twice as good as melee AA in pvp? I would have to say it is but you wont really think so until you get a good bow, but even so other classes CAs are just as good when added with the time between auto attacks. I.E. I auto attack an assassin for 2k, when he could easily do 3k damage to me with one or two CAs before I can get another auto attack off.

Doh, I meant to write pve, not pvp. In pvp I would agree it's about twice as good, in fact, that was my original argument. I don't think it's nearly twice as good in pve.
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:16 PM   #88
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I asked to have this post stickied in a couple of PM's, now I'll ask in the actual body of the post itself.  Could we get this stickied?  This post has more opinions and has probably had more hits and information in it than 60% of the ones already stickied.Thanks,Hexus
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:36 PM   #89
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I totally agree.

It's really hard for a ranger to get raids  because they bring nothing to the raid. Use to the only thing I could bring was being able target through the tank and pull or just get a glempse of a mob and then retreat to a safe place and pull, letting the tank peel it off me when it came into range, but sadly they took that away. About the only thing good now is that in Rok a lot of the mobs will stand back and cast and that's bad thing to do with a ranger in the group, lol.

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Old 01-22-2008, 02:15 AM   #90
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Basiccly what it boils down to, rouges are doing 2x our damage with melee only with medicore level 80 weapons. We are doing ~800-1kish damage with auto attack, others are easily reaching close to 2k, if not more. I dont see how we can be "shifted laterally" with these kinds of numbers. I can understand things being fine with our CA's currently. (I havent upgraded myself to fully adept 3, so I cant really compare myself yet in raids). But the numbers are showing up for themselves on where problems lie.. Personally, I am avoiding changing guilds to a "hardcore" guild because of these problems. I dont like to raid or play when these kinds of problems arise. I have raided on weekends lately, and when I have time off. But its not fun when your "literally" stuck using a level 68 bow.
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