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Old 09-18-2007, 11:44 AM   #31
TwistedFaith

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As a ranger who's been playing the class since the game was released and who has now switched a different class because of all the just simply annoying issues with the class, I completely agree with the original poster.My main problem with the class wasnt that you are not capable of great dps, but more that to do the great dps which is so often quoted by people 3.5k zonewide etc, you need a insane amount of very very rare items.Take the prismatic lines - there's now not a single reason for a ranger to do prismatic 1,2,3 or even SOD. The claymore quest did have the kilji which procced of range, now it doesnt so there's no point doing it.I got fed up each tier trying to find the one bow each expansion that will make me do the dps to justify my spot on the raids. I would see assasins and in particular swashys doing amazing dps with pretty common drops, however rangers ALWAYS needed that killer bow to do the same. When you then throw in the need for rare posions, rare arrows, it gets very old fast.As for the buffs and itemisation, it gets very old, you see lots of +melee crit chance items, and lots of procs of melee etc but where the hell are the ranged procs?
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:53 AM   #32
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I have a simple solution to this that will keep everyone happy.Devs - just add the various buff descriptions the OP wants, but don't actually make them do anything.That way, all the "Rangers are overpowered" crowd will be happy as Rangerr DPS won't actually change, and all the Rangers will be happy because we have items that finally have +ranged etc. on them...SMILEYAs a Ranger who's still using a lvl 57 bow and lvl 57 ammo, and stands no chance of ever getting anything better (let's hope RoK helps), I've learned the hard way that the "design" of the Ranger class is fundamentally broken. It will never work the way we want it to, because the game mechanics will just make us too overpowered, and the devs will never have the time to do it properly.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:54 AM   #33
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Encantador wrote:

This will be my last post in this thread because it is in the WRONG forum.

Scared to be wrong some more? 

To quote you ...

Lets for a moment consider what you are saying.

1 : Ranged does not equal Melee. Its a class (not only skill) on its own

TRUE: Ranged attack is more like spell attack.

So you are saying our bow attacks should all be based on our spell crit % and we should be going for gear that procs on successful spell attack?  I'm sure the mages will be happy to hear that.

2 : there are buffs that specifically enhance ranged attack.

There are indeed buffs for ranged attack. Ok not many but a few.

Name one.  Oh, you must mean the DIRGE buff Dissonate Boon, the one that buffs all MELEE abilities?  Kinda goes against all your arguments that ranged is more like a spell, or that Illusionists should get a CoB alternative.

3 : There are buffs that specifically give ranged attacks procs.

There are procs which only fire off ranged attack.

Again name one proc which only fires off ranged attack...keep thinking.

If thats so, please inform me why dirges do not have an alternative for CoB (your exemple) for ranged fights?

Err why should dirges have such a buff? Why not illusionist? or any other class.

Yeah, because with concentration slot requirements, a whole new buff line dedicated to one class is a viable option.

As of LU38..Any assassin, swash or brig worth a crap can parse just as good or better than a ranger.  These classes all have more utility (only a little more in the case of assassin, but rogues have far more) and parse just as well.  Why bring a ranger if you can get the dps + utility in one?
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:08 PM   #34
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dubbs wrote:
As of LU38..Any assassin, swash or brig worth a crap can parse just as good or better than a ranger.  These classes all have more utility (only a little more in the case of assassin, but rogues have far more) and parse just as well.  Why bring a ranger if you can get the dps + utility in one?

Agree with you on this one.  Typically in my raids I'll parse in the top 5, usually behind a Necro, Warlock fighting with our other ranger and a very well played and equipped Brig for the third spot.  GU 38 has put an assassin, two swashys and our second brig above me in the parse.  I am fully KOS fabled with DT ammo, as is the other ranger in our guild, neither of us have a top end bow (he uses Bazkul and I use SWLB).  Our DPS has dropped slightly as we did not have many items equipped that would proc off of ranged items, but the DW change and the raid wide buffs have really pushed up the dps of the ‘melee scouts'.

I'm really glad that our other scouts are able to do more damage now, this helps out our raid and we are able to kill mobs quicker. I now have to ask myself, If I were raid leader why should I take Rangers on a raid with me - They offer very little to the raid, lets put a brig in its place that can parse the same dps numbers and with 3-4 brigs we can keep dispatch on the mob continuously and we wont miss the Ranger at all.  

Ranger autoattack is high but it will cost a ranger without DT ammo 1.4-6 sp per autoattack, whether it hits or not.  Ranger autoattack is also slow 3-4 seconds between AA (depending on haste and bow) as opposed to 1-2 second for every 2 attacks for other DW scouts, so my one ranged AA has to equal 6 melee scout AA, I get one chance for my items to proc and the DW scout gets 3 changes to have his off hand weapon proc and 3 changes to have everything that will proc on a melee attack proc. Does this even out?  Over the course of a night, it should as proc percentage is normalized to a 3 second delay, but it only equils out if the number of procs available are equial as well.  

I feel that it is wrong to have melee weapons (shields included) proc damage from a bow attack, just as its wrong for a bow to proc from a melee attack, however I see no reason why my bow should not be able to proc my armor, my rings, my earrings, my wrist items, my charm items etc.  My bow probably will proc these items, however there are almost no items in the game that will proc off of ranged attacks (another itemization issue that was discussed above).  Most of these say off of a hostile spell or off of a primary melee weapon etc.  The items that say ‘a successful attack' are not working for bow attacks.  Items that proc from ranged attacks are so rare that there is a stickied post in the ranger forum for these items, howere GU 38 has killed most of them.  

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Old 09-18-2007, 01:32 PM   #35
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Deterrent wrote:
To start off: althogh our DPS is an issue, it has nothing to do with this.Yeah, itemization for rangers is awful. The devs just seem to be ignoring the fact that we are in fact NOT a melee class.Armor:- + ranged is very rare. For example our EoF gear set does not give any ranged.- Stats are screwed up. There is very, very little INT in our gear. We get huge amounts of virtually obsolete stats (STA, AGI) and little if any INT. For example our EoF Ranger gear set does not give a single point of INT. - + ranged crit is almost impossible to findMelee:- For all quest rewards we get the "scout" item, which is always a melee weapon. So no reward for any of the long questlines (SoD, Claymore, etc).- Virtually all procs are for melee.- All heroic opportunities from meleeBows & arrows:- We are very, very reliant on our bows for damage. Our auto attacks account for something like 40% of our damage.- The availability of bows is horrible. Rangers who aren't in raiding guilds will have to use the Ghostly Bow of Bylze (a lvl 59 treasured bow) at lvl 70. Also the sheer number of bows is tiny in comparison to other weapons.- Bow and arrow mechanics are absolutely abysmal to say the least. If by some miracle you get a T7 fabled bow, it will be performing badly unless you have t8 ammo:
  • T7 arrows (adamantine arrows) are actually level 57.
  • You will only get 100% damage out of your autoattack if the bow is also level 57.
  • So even if you get a level 70 Fabled longbow, for example the Torn Ligament Long bow, you will only be doing 77% of it's potential damage. This means that lower level bows, such as Bylze will easily outparse it.
  • Therefore you pretty much have to have one of the two extremely rare T8 ammo-summoning bows from DT aswell.
  • It also means that the DR on bows is totally and absolutely useless for determining the strength of a bow.
  • Rangers who don't have the time or guild to do hardcore raiding will therefore be stuck with crap bows for life.
  • And of course we have to pay 3-6 silver per attack, depending on the market
I totally agree.  This post sums it up 100%.  It's not like Rangers have one huge issue thats causing massive problems.  It's more like a collection of small problems adding up to cause an unhappy situation.  We need better itemization.  It'd be nice if Master Strikes and HO's could be performed from range.  Why cant I search for items on the broker with +ranged on them?  +Slash, Crush and Pierce is searchable.  Why not ranged?  And so on and so forth.  It's just gotten to the point where it feels like the devs have either forgotten about us or have us lumped with the dual wield scouts, neither of which is acceptable.  Help please.
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:34 PM   #36
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FuriCuri wrote:
I see all those who whine that rangers are overpowered comming from PvP server. So I suggest those ppl to go look for some other thread for PvP toons and start whining their "rangers are still uber" there. I really don't give a f..ck about PvP and the percent of ppl playing PvP is meaningless compared to PvE. So I think devs should sepparate game mechanics for PvP and PvE since there is no way they could balance it both. All I can see now is that PvE rangers hurting cause of PvP and thats really [Removed for Content] me off: it's like being punnished for the crime you never done.
a) the two mechanics ARE seperate and b) YOU WHERE NOT NERFED this update a BUG was fixed, if you can't realise that EVERY SWORD but 1 did not proc on your bow but this ONE sword did was a bug then I don't know what game your playing.
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Old 09-18-2007, 02:18 PM   #37
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ke'la wrote:
FuriCuri wrote:
I see all those who whine that rangers are overpowered comming from PvP server. So I suggest those ppl to go look for some other thread for PvP toons and start whining their "rangers are still uber" there. I really don't give a f..ck about PvP and the percent of ppl playing PvP is meaningless compared to PvE. So I think devs should sepparate game mechanics for PvP and PvE since there is no way they could balance it both. All I can see now is that PvE rangers hurting cause of PvP and thats really [Removed for Content] me off: it's like being punnished for the crime you never done.
a) the two mechanics ARE seperate and b) YOU WHERE NOT NERFED this update a BUG was fixed, if you can't realise that EVERY SWORD but 1 did not proc on your bow but this ONE sword did was a bug then I don't know what game your playing.
Way to pull a tiny little detail out of the whole thread and focus on that SMILEY. There were several items that proc'd off ranged - the qeynos, the rapier off the top of my head. They said they fixed it all several updates ago but yet these were left in the game. Then a dev steps in and says "on successful attack" means it will proc on ranged and melee. Well guess what, that is what those weapons said. Also, there are now several items that say that and still dont proc off ranged. Please focus on the topic on hand and not some minutia. Thanks for telling us we were not nerfed
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Old 09-18-2007, 02:45 PM   #38
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There has been a lot of changes to our class in the last couple of updates. They have each been somewhat small but then end result ...something is wrong.

Last night I had a real fustrating time in TNT. Granted this zone is highly resistant etc, it's hard zone...I understand that. The following happened to me during clearing trash at least 4 times:

  • All debuffs ticking (Cover Fire, Vides & Devitalizing - mob pretty much debuffed)
  • Proc from Cloak of Valor ticking
  • Proc from Buckler of the Howler ticking (DPS near 100, not the best group)
  • Focus aim ticking - (ranged skill at 550ish)
  • Bow: Rigid Scale
  • Arrows: Viscus (I also tried field point)

All 4 to 5 auto attacks missed or were parried. When that happens I am basically with the main tank DPS and not really much I can do about it. Again, it's mostly the zone mobs in this case and thats cool, everyone was lower than usual but I was way way way low.  It happens on occasion that we miss or get parried when focus aim is ticking, thats cool. But 4 or 5 times in a row...and not just once but multiple times...kinda strange.

In general I am starting to see some negative effects of the recent changes. 

Ignore it if you want but something doesn't seem right. 

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Old 09-18-2007, 02:49 PM   #39
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Just thought Id post my 2 cents worth. With the recent changes to dual wielding Ive noted an imbalance. The DW weapons were adjusted, and as the update notes said, two handed weapons were also adjusted to make them still desirable. This has put the squeeze on Rangers. We are 2 handed wielders..( bow= 2 handed). The melee DW classes are now procing more and their DPS is higher, and the 2 handed users are doing a bit better. Rangers get 90% of their DPS from a 2 handed bow and are not helped much at all with the change in DW, so now the DWers dps is going up and the 2 handed users are going up and we stay the same. Squeezed in the middle. Id suggest that bows DPS be adjusted, just as the 2 handed weapons were adjusted, to try and even this out. Just my 2 cents.Buaf 70 Ranger Befallen
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:24 PM   #40
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personally i think that itemization for rangers is bad because i have NEVER seen a bow drop in a raid, but i think that the buff complaint is going to mean that solo rangers will lose out on soloability as the buffs will have to make up for it instead.
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:58 PM   #41
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As for the OP the reason all the buffs are melee only is found in the history of the ranger. From day one rangers were proc masters because of the game mechanics...i mean a single CA had about a 90% chance to proc caustic poison 3 times. So in order to keep rangers balanced they carefully controlled the procs that ranged attacks had access to. Then LU13 and rangers got more procs, better bow damage, better arrows. Then because of their bows ability to make procs go off not only on every bow CA, but multiple times per CA, rangers became not only the top dps class, but they were in a league of their own. Eventually the developers discovered their error and fixed ranger procs so they were procing on the correct percentages and not at a massively inflated rate however they didn't go back and take the proc restrictions off all the spells listed by the OP even though they had "fixed" bow procs. Now i won't debate that a top end raiding ranger is T1 dps, but the average heroic grouping ranger is severly penalized. I typically group with a swashie and wizi who usually parse around 1.5k dps while my ranger averages 800-900 with 1k being the "best". Honestly even my monk (and fury when not healing) has higher zone wide averages than that. Personally i think a lot of work needs to be done on rangers, either make them work like all the other melee dps classes (except at range) or make them work like a wizard, this inbetween business is causing severe itemization issues and inbalance.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:05 PM   #42
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I fully agree with the op. This problem has been brought to light by rangers considering why they are now no where near the top of the parse after the recent update. Duel wield melee scouts now own rangers in fact i saw a quote on ranger forum that optimally geared assassin was parsing 4k while the ranger also optimally geared was parsing 2.8k. Thus with dw changes even Brigands can match rangers on parse. Now consider that Brigands offer mass utility whereas rangers offer 0 utility so should be very near top parse, which they are now not by any means. Rangers very rarely melee and are thus penalised by the likes of the acrylia str ring only proccing from melee. Also arrows are not at the correct lvl for the bows we use thus do not work optimally. In fact the max crafted arrow is lvl 57 thus the likes of the treasured ghostly bow of bylze outperform t7 bows in many circumstances-esp pvp with focus aim period Small fixes such as this would balace things out to the correct conclusion. The Kilj nerf also hurt rangers and this along with the fact many sets dont contain int, ranged or ranged crit show maybe a lack of understanding of the ranger class by the devs.

Also PVP HAS NOT affected PVE. There are seperate rulesets and damages.

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Old 09-18-2007, 05:25 PM   #43
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Now we are starting to get some serious discussion on the issue. It seems like all the whiners posted their whines on the first page and then promptly left because they realized they had no ground to stand on.Some good points are made in some of the most recent posts. The proc itemization maybe a relic of the proc change - i cant say. But what about all the buffs that buff offensive skills but not ranged. I think what it really comes down to is the lack of understanding of the ranger class by any dev. They think we melee. I got in a private conversation with a Rothgar (plays a ranger) and he stated that he used Wrym Destroyer (what ranger in his right mind uses that) and he also said " a ranger needs to spam all his attack melee and ranged to parse hgh" This shows a blatant ignorance of the mechanics of a ranger class. Then in the same breath he was wondering why his DPS sucked on raids in Labs. Anyways, I digress.What people are whining about is 1% of 1% of rangers who have all class gear, legendary arrows, and RSB or SDL. The other 99% of rangers struggle to keep up with rogues which is just wrong. Rangers should be top DPS along with Sorc, and Assassins. However, if you play the average ranger against the average Sorc or Assassin they are going to come up woefully short. This IMHO, is because there is no itemization for rangers and no buffs or procs.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:37 PM   #44
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matmanx1 wrote:
It'd be nice if Master Strikes and HO's could be performed from range.
Just nit-picking a little here. I agree it would be nice but not critical. If you're NOT standing within range to get off melee CAs including master strikes you're nowhere near achieving our damage potential. We are not a 100% ranged class.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:40 PM   #45
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[email protected] wrote:
matmanx1 wrote:
It'd be nice if Master Strikes and HO's could be performed from range.
Just nit-picking a little here. I agree it would be nice but not critical. If you're NOT standing within range to get off melee CAs including master strikes you're nowhere near achieving our damage potential. We are not a 100% ranged class.
While I do agree with your statement the point he's trying to make is that we are lumped into the "Melee Scout" category in that even things as trivial as Master Strikes and HO's don't have a "ranged" component to them.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:50 PM   #46
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I have only one thing to agree on ... the current Epic questlines have ZERO bows for rangers and they need to have a bow for them. Granted those who raid can get better bows but those who join in a pick up raid for the final update or kill needs to have the choice of a bow with decent stats. I know or would hope that RoK has a bow for them otherwise once again the ranger class gets shafted again. Here's hoping.
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Old 09-18-2007, 06:20 PM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
matmanx1 wrote:
It'd be nice if Master Strikes and HO's could be performed from range.
Just nit-picking a little here. I agree it would be nice but not critical. If you're NOT standing within range to get off melee CAs including master strikes you're nowhere near achieving our damage potential. We are not a 100% ranged class.
While I do agree with your statement the point he's trying to make is that we are lumped into the "Melee Scout" category in that even things as trivial as Master Strikes and HO's don't have a "ranged" component to them.

Agree that these would be nice but not a necessity - the itemization is probably what needs to be looked at.

Standing in melee range is a must in order to maximize your damage potential, but it would be nice to have the master strikes on a ranged attack.  Hitting the master strike does take you out of ranged combat and we have the potential to loose and auto bow attack.  Having to redo the HO counters to where they worked on range attacks would be a nightmare for the programmers and all scout HO's share the same icons - so special Ranger only icons would have to be put in for our ranged attacks, or the ranged attacks themselves would have to reworked to substitute for the standard scout melee attack.

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Old 09-18-2007, 06:24 PM   #48
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[email protected] wrote:

Having to redo the HO counters to where they worked on range attacks would be a nightmare for the programmers and all scout HO's share the same icons - so special Ranger only icons would have to be put in for our ranged attacks, or the ranged attacks themselves would have to reworked to substitute for the standard scout melee attack.

I never really thought about that but you are correct Sir.  Thinking on it now I would be very interested to hear what the Devs envisioned the Ranger class to be before the release of the game.  I always joke about the Devs thinking that Rangers are part of the melee scouts but after thinking on the point you made above it really does seem true.
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Old 09-18-2007, 06:50 PM   #49
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[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

Having to redo the HO counters to where they worked on range attacks would be a nightmare for the programmers and all scout HO's share the same icons - so special Ranger only icons would have to be put in for our ranged attacks, or the ranged attacks themselves would have to reworked to substitute for the standard scout melee attack.

I never really thought about that but you are correct Sir.  Thinking on it now I would be very interested to hear what the Devs envisioned the Ranger class to be before the release of the game.  I always joke about the Devs thinking that Rangers are part of the melee scouts but after thinking on the point you made above it really does seem true.

In the beginning of the game all scouts started out as scouts then decided to go Bard, Rouge, Predator at level 10, then specialize to what we are now at level 20.  We got our HO's back at about level 5-6 when we were all the same ‘Scout'.  The HO mechanic has not changed since the EQ2 team did the class revamp and allowed you to start your main class from day 1.  

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Old 09-18-2007, 06:51 PM   #50
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Rangers are a very different class than all others in the game, and I think this is where the big issue/problem comes in.  Thinking about the damage that I do, I can come up with only a couple of my CA's that routinely do more damage than my autoattack.  I raid but I'm not a high end raiding ranger, I have decent equipment and my autoattack typically averages about 3000 damage.  The only CA's that average more than that are Triple Volley (1 min timer) , Vieled Fire (90 sec timer), Rain of Arrows (group AE, 3 minute timer), Selection (45 sec - 1 min timer) and Snipers Shot (15 minute timer) and Rangers Blade (melee 90 sec timer).  I think I've got them all, but correct me if I'm wrong.  

So this basically means that I'm using all my other CA's as ‘something to do' between Autoattacks.  Four of the above attacks I have to be in stealth to perform so this means I really have to time when I go into stealth (cause stealth turns off attacks) so that I do not delay an autoattack any more than necessary.  Snipers shot has such a long cast time that using it will typically cause you to miss out on 2-3 autoattacks, so most rangers typically ignore that one.  

How many other classes have more than half of their damage causing CA's do less damage to the mob than their autoattack and on such long cool down timers?  Is one of the changes that need to be made to the ranger class an upgrade in CA damage?  This still would not fix the itemization, but could put the average ranger on more equal footing with the other average scouts.

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Old 09-18-2007, 06:58 PM   #51
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[email protected] wrote:

Rangers are a very different class than all others in the game, and I think this is where the big issue/problem comes in.  Thinking about the damage that I do, I can come up with only a couple of my CA's that routinely do more damage than my autoattack.  I raid but I'm not a high end raiding ranger, I have decent equipment and my autoattack typically averages about 3000 damage.  The only CA's that average more than that are Triple Volley (1 min timer) , Vieled Fire (90 sec timer), Rain of Arrows (group AE, 3 minute timer), Selection (45 sec - 1 min timer) and Snipers Shot (15 minute timer) and Rangers Blade (melee 90 sec timer).  I think I've got them all, but correct me if I'm wrong.  

So this basically means that I'm using all my other CA's as ‘something to do' between Autoattacks.  Four of the above attacks I have to be in stealth to perform so this means I really have to time when I go into stealth (cause stealth turns off attacks) so that I do not delay an autoattack any more than necessary.  Snipers shot has such a long cast time that using it will typically cause you to miss out on 2-3 autoattacks, so most rangers typically ignore that one.  

How many other classes have more than half of their damage causing CA's do less damage to the mob than their autoattack and on such long cool down timers?  Is one of the changes that need to be made to the ranger class an upgrade in CA damage?  This still would not fix the itemization, but could put the average ranger on more equal footing with the other average scouts.

Good point there. AFter LU-13 the devs let most of our damage come from procs. That was how our CAs did damage. Triple could proc three times. They removed that mechanic but did not up the damage. Oh yeah, they threw us a bone by upping miracle, confounding, and Lunging joust. Whoopee! Arguable our best CA - triple arrow- is woefully pathetic in damage. Especially if one of he arrows miss. That CA probably averages 2k -2.5k. An upgrade in CA damage is not uncalled for or just adjust some itemization so we can proc again and allow buffs to buff ranged.
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Old 09-18-2007, 07:02 PM   #52
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While I realize your frustration in being repeatedly 'nerfed' over the last, what, 4 game updates, I think you need to gain a little perspective. As another poster already said, If all these buffs and items were to proc on ranged attacks, rangers' damage output would be too far out of line the other classes in the game. As it stands now, rangers are still capable of the absolute bar-none highest dps of any class in the game, and even taking a good deal of your procs away isn't going to change that. I also agree that group buffs that affect scout/fighter classes such as CoB should by all means proc off bow attacks, but the base damage on your bow would have to be reduced to compensate. Be careful where you tread.
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Old 09-18-2007, 07:37 PM   #53
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dubbs wrote:
Encantador wrote:

This will be my last post in this thread because it is in the WRONG forum.

Scared to be wrong some more? 

To quote you ...

Lets for a moment consider what you are saying.

1 : Ranged does not equal Melee. Its a class (not only skill) on its own

TRUE: Ranged attack is more like spell attack.

So you are saying our bow attacks should all be based on our spell crit % and we should be going for gear that procs on successful spell attack?  I'm sure the mages will be happy to hear that.

2 : there are buffs that specifically enhance ranged attack.

There are indeed buffs for ranged attack. Ok not many but a few.

Name one.  Oh, you must mean the DIRGE buff Dissonate Boon, the one that buffs all MELEE abilities?  Kinda goes against all your arguments that ranged is more like a spell, or that Illusionists should get a CoB alternative.

3 : There are buffs that specifically give ranged attacks procs.

There are procs which only fire off ranged attack.

Again name one proc which only fires off ranged attack...keep thinking.

If thats so, please inform me why dirges do not have an alternative for CoB (your exemple) for ranged fights?

Err why should dirges have such a buff? Why not illusionist? or any other class.

Yeah, because with concentration slot requirements, a whole new buff line dedicated to one class is a viable option.

As of LU38..Any assassin, swash or brig worth a crap can parse just as good or better than a ranger.  These classes all have more utility (only a little more in the case of assassin, but rogues have far more) and parse just as well.  Why bring a ranger if you can get the dps + utility in one?
Totally agree with this post especially the last part. Everyone instantly jumping on this post screaming more nerfs to the ranger class. If you are in a raiding guild then you know that after LU38 swashys and brigs are doing the same dps as rangers and assassians are pushing past as they adjust to the LU changes. If I were a raid leader and had the choice swashy ranger brigand or assassian, id choose ranger last. All the other classes do close to or the same dps and bring soo much more to the table. As a ranger I bring one thing to a raid dps nothing more.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:54 PM   #54
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[email protected] wrote:
As it stands now, rangers are still capable of the absolute bar-none highest dps of any class in the game
With the right equipment. But the majority of the ranger class, your average, everyday ranger, does *not* have that equipment. You cannot judge an entire class on what the top of the heap can do.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:09 PM   #55
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[email protected] wrote:

How many other classes have more than half of their damage causing CA's do less damage to the mob than their autoattack and on such long cool down timers?  Is one of the changes that need to be made to the ranger class an upgrade in CA damage?  This still would not fix the itemization, but could put the average ranger on more equal footing with the other average scouts.

Most non-spell-flingers get most of their damage from auto-attack. I know my troubador gets between 40% and 60% of his damage from auto-attack. I've seen guardian and berzerker parses where 50% of their damage was from auto-attack. Same deal for dirges and swash/brigs. I know on my troub my biggest nuke (Perfect Shrill) usually lands for 3k on a crit, on a 15 second timer. My auto-attack is hitting for 500-1k twice, every 3ish seconds.

While I sympathise with your goal of getting things to proc from ranged (I don't particularly care one way or the other) I don't expect it will happen, and if it did, your auto-attack (or CAs) would take a rather large hit to compensate. Anyone who says this thread isnt about DPS is fooling themselves. What the heck else could it possibly be about? More procs = more damage. Simple.

Itemisation is an issue for alot of classes, so again, it's not just rangers. I do agree however that they need to add a search option for +ranged gear and also need to add bows (NOT as good as raid bows) to the epic quest lines. Also, allowing us to buy the next tier's arrows would be a nice idea too.

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Old 09-18-2007, 10:51 PM   #56
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First I am going to compare how our damage works to our counterparts, and let me say when you balance the two classes on CA's/auto attack alone (before LU3SMILEY they come out to be equal. The CA damage between assassins and rangers is similar but the casting time is not, we have a much higher cast time thus our auto attack is higher to compansate.Second let me state that currently rangers received a justified nerf to melee weapons procing off ranged, and let us all agree this is NOT the issue at all. Our issue is on itemization and the lack of buffs that effect ranged.    When looking at itemization all other classes have easier times with +slash/pierce/crush/spell mods, there are "few" +ranged modifiers in the game currently. Also, the cost of ammunition still, no other class has a cost beyond poisons or pearls to play there class. And when trying to get DT ammo it drops off an extreemly rare loot table of Tnax/drake from DT. Even many seasoned players still do not have there DT ammo and they are clearing EH.Stating that the classes are balanced without any group buffs. It does not make sense that rangers cannot use things like the procs wizards/warlocks give, or being unable to use the druid dps/haste buffs or adding a +ranged to modifiers that wardens give. Afew last words to remember, every DW class just got a giant boost with DW as well as the way procs work.. The difference is astronomical (I spelled that right my first time WOW).
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Old 09-19-2007, 04:09 AM   #57
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Ok, as someone said - there were a really good points about rangers. Tho I think it's useless to wait any devs to answer here I just prey they at least read this thread. My only wish now is... no... not the ranger itemization, buffs, procs, HO or cheaper shots - I really want to know what that man who designed ranger class is thinking now? I'm a professional developer and when I see users feedback me that my app does such problems I know what cause it: an architecture design flaw. It's not a bug. It's a architecture flaw. In wich case simple patch won't do - you need to redesign some architectures parts to make system work as intend. I really want to look into ranger class architector's face and ask him what the hell he was thinking? Look:
  1. Almost no itemization for ranger. What? Anyone saw any bow in epic quest reward? Lets take away all those +melee crit, +slahing and other +melee items from the game. And all melee and casters weapons from epic quest. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  2. To be like other scouts/predator we need hi-end gear which is cause of #1 is impossible to gain for 90% of player - so you just restrict 90% of customers to play ranger on fullest. Lets take away 90% of melee and caster items. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  3. There is no other class in game so expensive as ranger: poisons + arrows cost a fortune. So again, you force only a rich ones customers to play ranger (or mb it's just some support for plat sellers eh?). Tell me, why does not melee swing or caster nuke costs that much? Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  4. We have no items (at least I don't heard anyone on world ranger channel found it) that proc on ranged. Lets take away all procs from melee. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  5. For our HO to trigger we must use melee. Lets take melee HO to ranged? Make all equall, don't you agree?
Dam I'm so angry cause of that unfairness! I really wish SOE transfer some of their powers to fix broken class isntead of doing RoK.
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:34 AM   #58
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FuriCuri wrote:
Look:
  1. Almost no itemization for ranger. What? Anyone saw any bow in epic quest reward? Lets take away all those +melee crit, +slahing and other +melee items from the game. And all melee and casters weapons from epic quest. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  2. To be like other scouts/predator we need hi-end gear which is cause of #1 is impossible to gain for 90% of player - so you just restrict 90% of customers to play ranger on fullest. Lets take away 90% of melee and caster items. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  3. There is no other class in game so expensive as ranger: poisons + arrows cost a fortune. So again, you force only a rich ones customers to play ranger (or mb it's just some support for plat sellers eh?). Tell me, why does not melee swing or caster nuke costs that much? Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  4. We have no items (at least I don't heard anyone on world ranger channel found it) that proc on ranged. Lets take away all procs from melee. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  5. For our HO to trigger we must use melee. Lets take melee HO to ranged? Make all equall, don't you agree?

Lets NOT make all equal, if we did then there'd be no point having 24 classes.Don't you agree? 

1. While I agree that it should be easier to find +ranged and +ranged crit items, they DO exist. The bow is a well-known issue, and will quite possibly be addressed with the epic quests in RoK.

2. ALL classes are dependant on items. Don't pretend like you're the only ones who are reliant on gear. Once you've got your masters, the ONLY thing that you can do to increase your DPS is to get better gear. Case in point - My Troubador went from 100-200 DPS from auto-attack to now having 500-600 DPS from auto-attack. How? I got better weapons. Grouping is a completely different issue.3. Other scouts have to pay for poisons as well and ALL classes get to pay for potions. Arrows were recently changed to not be consumed by CAs. While I realise that you're going to use more arrows than other clases because you're a RANGED class, you DO have a skill which gets your arrows back, and another one which summons arrows. It's not perfect, and I don't beleieve it will be enough summoned arrows to cover your uses. But it is more than anyone else gets. My troub goes through alot of arrows as well.

4. I know the manacles of dark sky will proc on ranged. It's a stiffle rather than damage, but it is a proc that works on ranged. Also your bow will proc, and they proc ALOT due to the long delay on bows. Also, what happens if you get items to proc off your bow attack? They'll proc on almost every other attack, increasing your DPS even more than it is now. Then before long we're back to having hundreds of NERF RANJA!!1 threads. What happens when everyone wants a class nerfed? Yup thats right. They get nerfed. You WANT your class to be nerfed again?

5. If you're not in melee range then you're not DPSing to your full potential. Get into melee range and you wont have a problem triggering HOs.

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Old 09-19-2007, 06:52 AM   #59
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Ranja wrote:
Chuffed wrote:
From Websters dictionary:Melee - A fight in which the combatants are mingled in one confused mass; a hand to hand conflict; an affray.To my knowledge Melee has always been up close combat which Ranged combat clearly isnt. Hence why melee buffs dont work with Ranged.I do agree that there are very few +ranged items out there though, but our guild rangers hit rate is very good without them due to the +stat for the relevant skill on your arrows.Yet there is a problem with +crit too ranged items which does seem to need some looking into.I could be wrong but this post still sounds like someone asking for a dps boost. SMILEY
Wow reading comprehension FTW. I never ask for more DPS we do DPS fine. I dont even care if another class out-dps's us. I am just pointing out the disparity in range buffs. One thing this thread has brought to my attention is all the ranger hate out there. What do you care if we do good DPS? It helps your raid, it helps your guild or it helps your group. Jesus - get over your class and your jealousy. It is amazing to me. And for the PvPer's go away - we dont care about you. This is PvE I have never heard Tarinax complain that I critted 8k on him and whine about it in the ranger forums. I dont know how to put this more simply - I am simply pointing out the oversight of ranged buffs in the game. Let me take an example, the guardian buff that buffs all offensive skills but ranged?!?! This is an oversight. And there are many more like it. I don't care about DPS.On another note, since you want to make this about DPS, if you have rangers always parsing in the top, then your other classes are slacking. Nuff said about DPS.You can all go back to your ranger hate and whining now.
I can read just fine thanks, but let me point out those points you missed when you just read what I said in the last sentence of my post. You also were not just asking for buffs you did mention itemization (see I can read SMILEY).Melee is hand to hand, was just clarifying the meaning of the word and the possible reason why they dont work on ranged.I agreed with your point on itemization on +ranged and + to crit on ranged items. I just pointed out that the bonus on arrows do help out, while others requiring DW do not get those type of bonuses to their weapons or gear (+59 to piercing with normal handcrafted ammo at 70). SoE could see that as a balance who knows?However if you cant see that by asking for all those buffs to work on ranged it would increase your dps and why people could see that as a plea for more dps then I am sorry. Possibly its because they would add too much to rangers dps and put them way ahead of other classes that those buffs have not been made to work with ranged.It is your assumption its an oversight, not fact. Yes I am talking about PvE and the more dps the better from dps classes, however there is meant to be a balance of sorts isnt there?You also state that if rangers are parsing higher than other classes its due to the fact they are slacking, could it be that rangers that arent parsing that high either have bad gear or are "slacking" too? It does cut both ways.And I am not sure where you could come up with the idea I am jealous of or hate rangers. Why would I? They cant tank as well as me and thats what I do. SMILEYI would point out that by ranting at others due to the fact they disagree is not a good way to get your point across.
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:23 AM   #60
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[email protected] wrote:
FuriCuri wrote:
Look:
  1. Almost no itemization for ranger. What? Anyone saw any bow in epic quest reward? Lets take away all those +melee crit, +slahing and other +melee items from the game. And all melee and casters weapons from epic quest. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  2. To be like other scouts/predator we need hi-end gear which is cause of #1 is impossible to gain for 90% of player - so you just restrict 90% of customers to play ranger on fullest. Lets take away 90% of melee and caster items. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  3. There is no other class in game so expensive as ranger: poisons + arrows cost a fortune. So again, you force only a rich ones customers to play ranger (or mb it's just some support for plat sellers eh?). Tell me, why does not melee swing or caster nuke costs that much? Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  4. We have no items (at least I don't heard anyone on world ranger channel found it) that proc on ranged. Lets take away all procs from melee. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  5. For our HO to trigger we must use melee. Lets take melee HO to ranged? Make all equall, don't you agree?

Lets NOT make all equal, if we did then there'd be no point having 24 classes.Don't you agree? 

I want all classes to be equall in terms of dps, cost and items. We could be different by playstyle.

1. While I agree that it should be easier to find +ranged and +ranged crit items, they DO exist. The bow is a well-known issue, and will quite possibly be addressed with the epic quests in RoK.

They DO exists? Ok, how about me remove all +melee items to the point they will be as rare as +ranged? They WOULD exist too, you know? Will be very rare, but you don't talking about rarity, right?

2. ALL classes are dependant on items. Don't pretend like you're the only ones who are reliant on gear. Once you've got your masters, the ONLY thing that you can do to increase your DPS is to get better gear. Case in point - My Troubador went from 100-200 DPS from auto-attack to now having 500-600 DPS from auto-attack. How? I got better weapons. Grouping is a completely different issue.

It was already stated in this thread: assassin and scouts can do almost the same dps with mediocre gear like range with fabled and very rare gear. Lets switch the positions? Lets all melee and casters got their nice weapons extreemely rare to get (like rangers atm) and ranges get full hand of bows like we have it with melee/nuke weapons? I like that idea.

3. Other scouts have to pay for poisons as well and ALL classes get to pay for potions. Arrows were recently changed to not be consumed by CAs. While I realise that you're going to use more arrows than other clases because you're a RANGED class, you DO have a skill which gets your arrows back, and another one which summons arrows. It's not perfect, and I don't beleieve it will be enough summoned arrows to cover your uses. But it is more than anyone else gets. My troub goes through alot of arrows as well.

Oh... So you like to catch one word from the sentence? That will not work with me. Again: poisons + ARROWs. See it? Arrows! Yes! And you troub tend to use arrows as well? Well you must clearly understand the difference in amount of arrows troub or assassin use compared to ranger. And the costs difference of each attack too.

4. I know the manacles of dark sky will proc on ranged. It's a stiffle rather than damage, but it is a proc that works on ranged. Also your bow will proc, and they proc ALOT due to the long delay on bows. Also, what happens if you get items to proc off your bow attack? They'll proc on almost every other attack, increasing your DPS even more than it is now. Then before long we're back to having hundreds of NERF RANJA!!1 threads. What happens when everyone wants a class nerfed? Yup thats right. They get nerfed. You WANT your class to be nerfed again?

Ok, agree here. I put it in wrong way. I wanted to have more items with various procs on them which will cause triggered by ranged - this way we could have more items for rangers. So yeah - it's all about itemization again. I want the full load of items with procs like melee do!

5. If you're not in melee range then you're not DPSing to your full potential. Get into melee range and you wont have a problem triggering HOs.

Oh yeah? And why is ranger who specialized on using a BOW to deal attack should run into melee to trigger their HO? Lets force casters to go into melee and start swinging their staves to trigger HO too! I think this will be fair enough.

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