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Old 02-01-2007, 07:03 AM   #31
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Rothgar1 wrote:
Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.

The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.

The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.




Rothgar, While I like the idea that our CAs will no longer use a consumable, I am going to have to call you out on your lack of knowledge of the ranger class. A 6% decrease to summoned arrows, no matter how you slice it, is a nerf. Most rangers use store bought ammo to suppliment their arrow usage when the summoning lines dont cut it anymore. And thats still a large out of pocket expense. Now, to say that if we want to maintain, or perhaps slightly improve our DPS we will have to buy player crafted arrows? Im sorry, but thats completely out of wack.

The second sentance says is all. Autoattack makes up for 30-40% of ranger DPS. Still think thats not a large part of Ranger DPS? At least 1/3 of our damage will be cut down 6%. I would seriously reconsider the tiering of the arrows. Because right now, you are basicly forcing us to spend money... IE line a woodworkers pockets. And while you might believe this is a solid working fix for the complaints of WWs and Rangers everywhere. It isnt. Forcing 1 class to buy any type of consumable from 1 crafting class is not the right answer for this. At this point, its not real clear if the costs will be higher for rangers, or lower. I will bet theres a fairly good chance that its going to remain the same. If for no other reason, you've just made our summoned arrows into junk, and essentually waste a spot that would otherwise might be a usefull CA, Buff/Debuff.

When you can name 1 other class that has to rely on player crafted items for thier 1/3 of thier DPS, then, and only then, will you be able to sell this idea to rangers.

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Old 02-01-2007, 08:28 AM   #32
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I just can't see any conversation about fixing arrows for rangers that also involves woodworkers.  Sorry, those should be two totally and completely different topics.  Rangers shouldn't have to pay for a consumable item on their primary form of damage.  They also shouldn't have to feel it's OK to have sub-par free summoned ammo.  If you want to have woodworkers make a new totem (or any other item) that adds to the core damage of ranged attack such as a proc damage type then have at it.  But, it shouldn't be needed as a basic component.    
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:47 AM   #33
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great reading this mean the raiders that worked our asres off for the best gear to include t8 ammo just to get it nerfed.. i know even though the dev said it should be better the the crafted that part about not much better then a certin crafted type rounded worries me alot. I mean even though i know my class in side and out dont go messing with hard earned item due to the fact ppl are whinning about having to actually farm or spend some of there plat for arrows.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:04 AM   #34
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Rothgar1 wrote:Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.
The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.
Would there be the possibility to let us treat quivers like bags and equip them in a bag slot.. so for example I could swap out ammo types with a simple swap of the quiver instead of moving multiple stacks?
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:06 AM   #35
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jjlo69 wrote:
great reading this mean the raiders that worked our asres off for the best gear to include t8 ammo just to get it nerfed.. i know even though the dev said it should be better the the crafted that part about not much better then a certin crafted type rounded worries me alot. I mean even though i know my class in side and out dont go messing with hard earned item due to the fact ppl are whinning about having to actually farm or spend some of there plat for arrows.



That just furthers the agruement of "they dont know what they are doing". You cant tell me that T8 legendary ammo and player crafted Rounded arrows might be on par with one another. Its 2 different tiers of arrow AND two different quality types of Arrows. The difference should be noticable and in favor of the higher quality, higher tiered legendary summoned. Last time I checked. T7 gear was better then T6 gear... Last time I checked, handcrafted gear was no where near on par with Legendary gear. So... to recap

T8 Legendary Ammo should be better then any T7 handcrafted.

Theres really nothing more that needs to be said.

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Old 02-01-2007, 09:14 AM   #36
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Ariven wrote:


Rothgar1 wrote:
Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.

The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.

The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.


Would there be the possibility to let us treat quivers like bags and equip them in a bag slot.. so for example I could swap out ammo types with a simple swap of the quiver instead of moving multiple stacks?




you can. bongo has 2 quivers just to hold enough arrows.
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Old 02-01-2007, 12:36 PM   #37
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I know that one of the Dev's raids with a Ranger. How can they not know that well geared and buffed raid rangers garner 40% upwards of their DPS from autoattack?

I am lucky enough to have a summoning bow, but if I didn't, this change would scare the pants off me and have me looking to my finances.

It's been said before:

Why should Rangers have to buy DPS from other players that have no cap on how much they can charge for our consumables?

Why do we remain one of the few classes in the game that pay for every single autoattack we make ? EVERY SINGLE ONE.

I thought the recent drive in this game was towards fun and removing 'bad' mechanics'. As far as many Rangers are concerned, spending time summoning arrows or farming to pay for them is not fun. Let me reiterate;

) Knowing that every autoattack you make makes someone else richer and you poorer when your groupmates/guildmates are swinging/casting for free is frustrating and annoying.

) Having to make arrangements with and being reliant on the timetables of tradeskillers is not fun.

) Some players can burn 4k+ arrows PER SESSION. This will obviously drop with the changes but will still be in the thousands with commensureate costs.

) People that can't afford whatever woodworkers want to charge will face a DPS cut. How is that fun or fair?

When/if the next level raise comes, I'll be off to another class I think. I can't remember off the top of my head but wouldn't a level cap put our harvested arrows a tier behind? That will leave us completely at the mercy of tradeskillers if we want to compete with the other DPS classes.

Awful change that favours a tradeskill class over an adventuring class. Yes we know you don't know what to do with woodworkers. Forcing many Rangers to become their customers and pay for evey bow shot we make is a very poor solution to that problem. We have players economies wheer low level adepts can bring 10's of gold. This scares me.

 The only good news is that finally, after 2 years, our CA's don't consume arrows.

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Old 02-01-2007, 12:56 PM   #38
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Mirdo wrote:

When/if the next level raise comes, I'll be off to another class I think. I can't remember off the top of my head but wouldn't a level cap put our harvested arrows a tier behind? That will leave us completely at the mercy of tradeskillers if we want to compete with the other DPS classes.

Awful change that favours a tradeskill class over an adventuring class. Yes we know you don't know what to do with woodworkers. Forcing many Rangers to become their customers and pay for evey bow shot we make is a very poor solution to that problem. We have players economies wheer low level adepts can bring 10's of gold. This scares me.

Mirdo.



I completely agree with everything you said. And for the record, Yes, our summoned arrows will be 1 teir behind if/when they raise the level cap. Anyone with a T8 summoning bow could easily find their legendary ammo (which for the record, should still put out more damage) possibly falling behind handcrafted player made arrows. So come next level increase, rangers that wish to maximize their damage will all be at the hands of crafters.

Its a good change, if your a woodworker... Its even a good change for a ranger thats a woodworker... but if you happen to have picked another TS, its going to be very very expensive once they find out we "NEED" those arrows.

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Old 02-01-2007, 02:12 PM   #39
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Hmmmm...You guys are totaly right on the principle here and I've been a little guilty of looking at this from a woodworkers point of view, but lets get some stuff straight here, it's not making us reliant on tradeskills for 1/3 of our DPS, it's 6% of a third which is a far smaller number, 2% in fact. Now I'm not going to argue the point as I do very much agree that summoned arrows should not be seeing this reduction, it's wrong, period. A 2% increase that you can pay for would be a far better end.As I see it the only way of ever balancing the mechanic of arrows from the Ranger point of view is to remove the cost factor totally.
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Old 02-01-2007, 02:14 PM   #40
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Lets be honest here, a 6% nerf to free autoattack is not a great deal. Like someone said above, if you're doing a full 50% autoattack damage, then its a 3% nerf. If you're doing closer to 33% autoattack, then its a 2% nerf... Not too bad in my opinion, in fact I doubt you would even notice it on a zone-wide.Now the thing that I see with this is that whatever they do to our free arrows is largely irrelevant anyway! Even if our free arrows were increased by 10%, the very fact that player crafted arrows are better than summoned is forcing the raiders to pay for them. DPS is everything to a raiding ranger remember.I do like that our CAs won't consume arrows though, and we should easily be able to have a surplus of arrows if we continue to use sommoned.
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Old 02-01-2007, 04:56 PM   #41
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Memran wrote:
Lets be honest here, a 6% nerf to free autoattack is not a great deal. Like someone said above, if you're doing a full 50% autoattack damage, then its a 3% nerf. If you're doing closer to 33% autoattack, then its a 2% nerf... Not too bad in my opinion, in fact I doubt you would even notice it on a zone-wide.

Now the thing that I see with this is that whatever they do to our free arrows is largely irrelevant anyway! Even if our free arrows were increased by 10%, the very fact that player crafted arrows are better than summoned is forcing the raiders to pay for them. DPS is everything to a raiding ranger remember.

I do like that our CAs won't consume arrows though, and we should easily be able to have a surplus of arrows if we continue to use sommoned.



Why do we have to put up with a DPS nerf to correct the inability of the DEV's to get tradeskilling right?

You are saying that a nerf to damage is actually reasonable? Based on what?

Rangers that don't have summoning bows are certainly not over the top in DPS compared to other classes. Even those with summoned ammo won't be topping every parse.

Why accept a nerf, or pay more to keep our DPS where it is?

Come the next cap increase, I would have to place orders for tens of thousands of arrows (5 nights raiding per week plus instances and questing) just to maintain the DPS status Quo. That will not be happening. It's a chore, it requires me to farm even more to raise the cash for whatever bloodsucking woodworker I'l be beholden to and it's NOT FUN. This is a game, not an archery / feudal system simulation.

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Old 02-01-2007, 05:03 PM   #42
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In general this is good news, but I have mixed feelings on the details of this:1. Summoned arrows being the worst ? I can sort of see this from a RP point of view, but this pretty much makes gathered arrows pointless.  Those people who spent large amount of plat on the Master spell are going to be a bit annoyed I guess. Prepare for some genuine complaints/whining (delete as appropriate). 2. Any Ranger worth his salt is now going to be forced to use vendor or player made arrows rather than summoned. How will this save us money ? 3. I think a much better idea would be to make the quality go: vendor < summoned < player made. This would stop Rangers being too annoyed, they wouldn't find their gather spells totally useless now, and Woodworkers would still be happy. This would also allow the difference between vendor and player made to be bigger, which would hopefully increase demand for player made arrows from non-Ranger classes, which in turn should reduce prices all round.4. T8 summoned ammo being better than T7 ammo makes sense to me. It would be nice though if the very best player made T7 ammo did the same damage as the summoned T8, so those Rangers who didn't have the bow but still wanted to try to keep up with the DPS can spend money to do so. As their bow isn't as good they are always going to lag behind, so the T8 guys will still parse above them (unless they are slacking !!!) SMILEY5. When level cap is increased to 80 (??), that T8 summoned ammo is not going to be the one to use, so this should make things interesting for those bow users...6. How do we pick different damage types with our ranged attacks now ? Is the concept of slashing/crushing ranged attacks going away ? How does this affect mobs that are immune or have high resists to a damage type ?
7. As a Woodworker I welcome the changes to the stack sizes. Making 100 arrows per pristine combine might just be enough to take away the pain of crafting them.8. Reducing fuel costs would be a good idea, or at least making it so that my costs to make are a lot less than what vendor made arrows sell for. Otherwise everyone will just buy vendor made arrows. I'm not spending 2 hours crafting arrows, just to find I can make 20gp profit on them. If there is no profit, then there will be no supply and Rangers will be forced to use summoned/vendor and then you'll be seeing "you've nerfed our DPS" complaints.9. Please try to find some way of making it obvious that certain arrows are "better" in their description. I can see Woodworkers spending hours responding to tells about "which is better" etc. Something clear like Damage Rating and/or Accuracy Rating that even a mage could understand.10. How does the "range" bonus on arrows work ? If my bow has a range of 35 meters, if I have these arrows in my quiver do I get a bonus to increase it by % ? What happens if I have a mixed quiver of arrows ? What happens if I'm using them and run out and switch to my accuracy arrows, do I find myself suddenly out of range ? 11. I'd like to see Arrow types something like +damage, +chance to hit, and +chance to crit. Maybe even combine all 3 on each arrow. So rounded arrows are +damage, -chance to hit, and no change to crit for example.

Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on 02-01-2007 04:17 AM

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Old 02-01-2007, 05:17 PM   #43
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Here's another one:

If you buy from a non-guild crafter, have fun with the logistics of manually transferring your order around on a regular basis (and then storing). 10k arrows for what, 2 weeks? That's 100 stacks for a single high playtime player.  What fun for the Ranger and crafter. Has anybody considered just how many arrows, even with the changes to CA's that crafters will have to make and then transfer?

Any of these arrangements going on now will be between one or at most two players I would guess. Let's hope there are enough woodworkers in the game with the patience and time to grind out thousands upon thousands of arrows per week to keep 10 or so Rangers supplied.

Woo Hoo. Great times ahead. I can hardly wait.

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Old 02-01-2007, 06:12 PM   #44
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Really just want to know how this sounds. I'm keeping in mind rangers aren't the only arrow users.
  • Keep ranger summoned arrows equal to crafted standard arrows.This still leaves the specialty arrows as a viable tradeskill product for rangers but, as specialty are situational, it shouldn't be too onerous.
  • Adjust the recast of summons or the yield to match player crafted per unit of time. As a woodworker, I can do on the low-end 1 craft a minute, assuming the current recast of 10 mins, that's 1000 arrows. This should help reduce the problem of paying for DPS to almost negligible.
  • Change the summons skills to always summon tier appropriate arrows. If there is an insistance on keeping the  +14 upgrades, have those upgrades only increase the damage done or arrow yeild.
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:34 PM   #45
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I still think the best solution would be to eliminate the whole consumable arrow idea altogether.

Instead, each tier the WoodWorker gets recipes for "Bundles of Arrows"  a non-consumable item that is placed in the quiver.

There should be 6 different recipes, both a Hand Crafted and a Master Crafted version of crushing, piercing, slashing bundles.

Rangers don't have to continue to buy a ton of arrows and Woodworkers get something to sell (and 6 recipes as opposed to the current 3).

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Old 02-01-2007, 07:09 PM   #46
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dubbs wrote:

I still think the best solution would be to eliminate the whole consumable arrow idea altogether.

Instead, each tier the WoodWorker gets recipes for "Bundles of Arrows"  a non-consumable item that is placed in the quiver.

There should be 6 different recipes, both a Hand Crafted and a Master Crafted version of crushing, piercing, slashing bundles.

Rangers don't have to continue to buy a ton of arrows and Woodworkers get something to sell (and 6 recipes as opposed to the current 3).


Yes but, rangers aren't the only ones that use arrows adn I think that's a major point they consider. What I posted makes rangers primarily self sufficient except when they choose other options and everyone else still consumes arrows as an optional damage source.
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Old 02-01-2007, 07:16 PM   #47
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bongotez wrote:

Ariven wrote:

Rothgar1 wrote:
Would there be the possibility to let us treat quivers like bags and equip them in a bag slot.. so for example I could swap out ammo types with a simple swap of the quiver instead of moving multiple stacks?

you can. bongo has 2 quivers just to hold enough arrows.
Cool, thanks bongo SMILEY
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:03 PM   #48
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Deson wrote:


dubbs wrote:

I still think the best solution would be to eliminate the whole consumable arrow idea altogether.

Instead, each tier the WoodWorker gets recipes for "Bundles of Arrows"  a non-consumable item that is placed in the quiver.

There should be 6 different recipes, both a Hand Crafted and a Master Crafted version of crushing, piercing, slashing bundles.

Rangers don't have to continue to buy a ton of arrows and Woodworkers get something to sell (and 6 recipes as opposed to the current 3).



Yes but, rangers aren't the only ones that use arrows adn I think that's a major point they consider. What I posted makes rangers primarily self sufficient except when they choose other options and everyone else still consumes arrows as an optional damage source.



Who said only rangers could buy the "Bundle of Arrows"?  It would be useable by all classes, of course you could make other Bundle types too for all types of Throwing weapons.
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:07 PM   #49
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EQ2Magroo wrote:
In general this is good news, but I have mixed feelings on the details of this:


4. T8 summoned ammo being better than T7 ammo makes sense to me. It would be nice though if the very best player made T7 ammo did the same damage as the summoned T8, so those Rangers who didn't have the bow but still wanted to try to keep up with the DPS can spend money to do so. As their bow isn't as good they are always going to lag behind, so the T8 guys will still parse above them (unless they are slacking !!!) SMILEY

5. When level cap is increased to 80 (??), that T8 summoned ammo is not going to be the one to use, so this should make things interesting for those bow users...


Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on 02-01-2007 04:17 AM


A slight flaw in your logic here is that its T8 LEGENDARY ammo.

since the game works like this

No Flag < Handcrafted < Treasured < Mastercrafted < Legendary < Fabled < Mythical

And T7 < T8

The Ammo from Bazkul, Ichorstrand, and the Membranous Spined Sheath better be more damage than anything else other than the Fabled Emerald Halls arrows and any other fabled/legendary T8 ammo they decide to add,  until they put in T9 ammo of any type.   If its not they are Nerfing the weapons and will have to completely readjust the system when they raise the level caps. 

 

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Old 02-01-2007, 08:28 PM   #50
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I will use less arrows, but to strive for my best dps I have to pay for arrows that I could summon before. On top of paying for poisons I now have to pay more to play my class. Why was this good news?
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:29 PM   #51
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I don't quite know what to make of this proposed set of changes.  I am glad that they are at least making an attempt on this issue, however, I do believe that anytime you make part of the solution to our arrow consumption issues based upon another players whims (read:  woodworker pricing) then you are not giving us a solution but more of a patchwork fix.

 

 

I have no doubt that SOME woodworkers will price the arrows reasonably.  However, I believe for the most part in the greedy nature of man and that woodworkers for the most part know that our [Removed for Content] are in a sling on this and will gouge us rangers.

Again...I like the attention put on finding a fix.  However, I am apprehensive of the proposed changes.

 

I will play the wait and see game though.  It has been this long with little to no contact that it isnt going to be any different waiting to see.

 

I for one will not be the one to sit here in the forum and complain about the proposed changes till I see them in effect.  I will not make myself dread Developer Attention on this issue. And I will not discourage new rangers by pretending to know it all when I don't.

I will wait and see.  If I have a desire to help on test I will do so.  I very likely will be making a test character to take the arrows our for  a test drive.

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Old 02-01-2007, 08:31 PM   #52
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This is good news on the surface.  But instead of summoned arrows
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:32 PM   #53
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dubbs wrote:

Deson wrote:

dubbs wrote:

I still think the best solution would be to eliminate the whole consumable arrow idea altogether.

Instead, each tier the WoodWorker gets recipes for "Bundles of Arrows"  a non-consumable item that is placed in the quiver.

There should be 6 different recipes, both a Hand Crafted and a Master Crafted version of crushing, piercing, slashing bundles.

Rangers don't have to continue to buy a ton of arrows and Woodworkers get something to sell (and 6 recipes as opposed to the current 3).


Yes but, rangers aren't the only ones that use arrows adn I think that's a major point they consider. What I posted makes rangers primarily self sufficient except when they choose other options and everyone else still consumes arrows as an optional damage source.

Who said only rangers could buy the "Bundle of Arrows"?  It would be useable by all classes, of course you could make other Bundle types too for all types of Throwing weapons.
No one said it would be ranger only, I said rangers not being the only ones that use arrows is the reason it can't/won't be done.Note that if you look for my posts in other ranger/arrow use threads I suggested almost exaclty what you said. I even went a step further and said bows should just assume they have arrows for current base damage and every ammo piece should be considered special.For every class but rangers- especially after the CA changes- ranged is optional. They don't want to remove this cost but, it affects rangers disproportionately. My suggestion was trying to allieviate the ranger issue while leaving ammo management a viable balance tool against everyone else.
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:40 PM   #54
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jb11740 wrote:

RabbitFly wrote:
What you fail to understand is standing around summoning arrows = spending time you could have spent making cash, so with the reduction in consumption and the lowering of price it will all in all be more proficient to buy crafted arrows than to stand there and summon, even if you do not consider dmg.Also, Sparql, that is great and I hope every woodworker feel that way, I was just considering the time vs gain. Seeing as this has not changed.

Message Edited by RabbitFly on 01-31-2007 03:36 PM


Actually, I understand perfectly.

I think what you fail to understand is that we will still be paying to use our primary auto-attack, and perhaps more than before, to maintain previous damage levels. No other class in the game has to do that, or ever has.

You're assuming the price will be lower than vendor arrows. I hope it is, but until the recipe is updated, until woodworkers are in full swing, and until the market stabilizes, we won't know that.

Don't get me wrong. I already stated that the change to arrow consumption for CA's is wonderful, and I will be grateful when it goes live.  But reducing the effectiveness of the free arrows for the only class that requires them for primary auto-attack, with an option to pay to keep that effectiveness, is adding a cost component that did not exist previously.

That's the only conclusion possible, if you look at it honestly. Sorry.

So it's pretty simple. Make this a win for everyone involved, by keeping the cost and effectiveness of existing arrows the same, and making player crafted arrows substantially better than free or vendor arrows, but not nearly as good as legendary or fabled arrows. Give woodworkers quadruple yields on pristine, just like other crafted consumables, to make it worth their time and effort, and to make it economically feasible to improve your DPS if you chose to purchase the arrows to do so.

What I am asking for is a very minor tweak on what is already on the table.

And thanks again to the devs for working to fix this. I know it must be difficult to balance all of the factors involved, without breaking some other aspect of gameplay, or unfairly penalizing some other class.


Ok let me clearify.. I have always thought, and debated.. and still think and debate the fact that rangers have to spend money/time on being able to do their primary job, is flawed and highly unfair. So I do agree that the solution is not optimal, I just think you are underestimating the changes (not you alone of course). Recipes will have the same fuel requirements (this has been confirmed). Which means player crafted arrows will cost 1/4 of what they do now to make. So to further my point I decided I would do the math.one craft of t7 arrows is 4 sandpapers (a total of 1g 38s 24c) this is about 1s and 39 copper per arrow.Filling a quiver then requires 30g 27s 42c, this quiver will last you about 2 hours of total adventuring, in which time you should be able to make 1-5p depending on type of hunting and luck of roll. Filling a quiver using makeshift arrows (from my post on the Arrows - Bloody Hell thread)adept 1 - 9 hours and 30 minutes = 2000 arrowsadept 3 - 7 hours and 20 minutes = 2000 arrowsMaster 1 - 5 hours and 30 minutes =2000 arrowsBest case scenario, you have master1 and spent 5 aps into your makeshift skill. and it takes you 2 hours and 45minutes to fill a quiver (ca numbers as a full dragonhide quiver is slightly more than 2k).This best case scenario includes spending lots of plat on a master in huge demand, and spending 5 aps you would probably not chose to have cause you need those elsewhere. And even then you cannot deny the fact that buying crafted arrows at cost will still be cheaper.2 hours and 15 minutes should in the very least give you a plat, and very likely alot more than that. Of course this is highly depending on where you hunt and your luck in the RNG.As I said this is not the optimal solution, but thinking that you now have to spend more money on arrows than you had to before is not the case. Seeing as standing around just summoning arrows would net you a profit of 0.Then you take into the consideration of the consumption rate which now will be considerably lower, in other words your one quiver of arrows worth 30g, should now give you almost twice the adventure time it used to, therefore doubleing your profits of your investment..As I said, and let me get you to focus on this, I do still not think this is the optimal solution as we are still required to spend money to do our primary job (and no thats not just good, thats just doing it at all). But thinking that this will make you spend more money than you used to (considering that time is money) is just plain wrong.Sorry if you felt threatened by my earlier post, it was not my intention to flame you or anyone. I just wanted you to understand the way these two changes snowball. And now you have the math to back it up in front of you.I guess one thing they could do, as allready stated by a few is make makeshift arrows better than vendor bought and therefore closing the gap between makeshift and crafted, or even make them equal. As this would lower our cost even more as the small bonus of making free arrows will help it a bit as well.EDIT:to add to the comment from a wizard asking for an Auto-attack that did the same ammount of dps that ours do, OMG you know some wizards would peak at 4500dps then?.. so in other words forget about it, reason you don't have this is because your spells do alot more dps than ours do, so thats just plain silly.

Message Edited by RabbitFly on 02-01-2007 07:48 AM

Message Edited by RabbitFly on 02-01-2007 07:51 AM

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Old 02-01-2007, 08:51 PM   #55
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Just curious, as a wood worker.  2 part question, please answer seriously.1 - If this goes live as proposed, what do you consider to be a fairr price for crafted arrows when purchased on the broker? 2 - What would you consider to be a fair price for for crafted arrows when dealing with the woodworker directly (ie: placing an order)  And please, I am saying fair, as in realistically what would you pay without thinking "this woodworker sure is an over-charging [I cannot control my vocabulary]".
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:59 PM   #56
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That is a good point I did not take into consideration into my math, some of you have been complaining about greed from players.I think anything above 2x the fuel cost price is unfair, especially when it comes to stuff like arrows that will be sold in huge bunks. The problem (that I have stated before) is that the the time spent crafting vs. money gained from selling ratio have not changed at all with these changes. And this is a totally different kind of snowballing, as countering this they would have to make even more arrows per craft, with a higher fuel cost (giving them more possible profit per craft without heightening the cost of arrows), and also make ammo stacks be much larger to not nerf the woodworkers broker slots.I have allready suggested (in another thread I think), that they should up it 5x and fuel cost 5x.. to make the time constraint on the woodworker more worthwhile, the only problem is as I allready said is the ammount of broker slots the woodworker will have to use on arrows to keep up with demand.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:05 PM   #57
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RabbitFly wrote:That is a good point I did not take into consideration into my math, some of you have been complaining about greed from players.I think anything above 2x the fuel cost price is unfair, especially when it comes to stuff like arrows that will be sold in huge bunks. The problem (that I have stated before) is that the the time spent crafting vs. money gained from selling ratio have not changed at all with these changes. And this is a totally different kind of snowballing, as countering this they would have to make even more arrows per craft, with a higher fuel cost (giving them more possible profit per craft without heightening the cost of arrows), and also make ammo stacks be much larger to not nerf the woodworkers broker slots.I have allready suggested (in another thread I think), that they should up it 5x and fuel cost 5x.. to make the time constraint on the woodworker more worthwhile, the only problem is as I allready said is the ammount of broker slots the woodworker will have to use on arrows to keep up with demand.

The broker slots isn't too much of a concern, they can go in weapon racks which have 80 slots.  I don't picture having more than 8000 arrows up at any given time, as ideally I'd prefer to take orders from reliable customers.  Secondly, profit from crafting vs. adventuring isn't much of a concern for me because I tend to craft when I don't feel like adventuring. 
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:13 PM   #58
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ok then what about profit vs time spent?would 1g per craft be a decent profit for you? (1g being the profit not the price)
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:21 PM   #59
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First of all, Rothgar made an extremely unfortunate decision saying our auto attack damage is not much.  That was just so wrong and flippant.  We're a class that scrutinizes every single percent of our dps in the same way other classes do their mitigation or healing etc.  We make choices of gear and AAs based on 1% dps.  Autoattack is a HUGE portion of our damage anywhere from 35-50% of our damage depending on playstyle, we cannot even suppress how much damage autoattack is for us even spamming CAs we're getting at least a third of our damage from it.  I'm not sure there's a single class or person that wouldn't say 1/3 or more is an insignificant portion of dps.

Next to the wizard complaining about consumables.  We ALSO consume potions and totems, and food, and repairs, and buy spells.  So We use potions of power, str, int etc like everyone else in the game.  We use totems for power regen, health regen see invis/stealth like everyone else in the game.  We eat food and drink like everyone else in the game and repair and get our A3s and masters.  We ALSO use poisons like 3 other classes in the game.  We ALSO buy ammo, and must buy ammo for our primary dps like 0 other classes in the game.   Believe me we pay for our dps and I'm sick of it.

I have nothing against woodworkers.  I buy totems from them, I commission specialty arrows for the drake from them and when they used to be able to make rare arrows I bought those too.  But we should *not* be forced to buy from anywhere to maintain decent dps with our primary skills when we are a primary dps class!

This just invalidated not only a whole CA line but a new EOF 5 point AA too.  This makes the DT bows even MORE valuable seeing as we have had no hints or promise of level cap increases any time soon.   I didn't always have time to summon the arrows I needed to raid, so I supplement them with vendor.  Sometimes people were kind enough to buy from the vendor to help me with the costs.   That was a situation that was ridiculous.

The new situation is even more tenuous.  My summoned arrows will become terrible, a line people have sunk a ton of plat, months searching some even have their M2s in it and 5 points from EOF aa for it.  The vendor arrows will become a little worse than they currently are.  Players who make arrows will NOT be charging 3/4 less than they were for a stack just because they can make 4 times more, because they weren't getting a profit anyway.  If it takes a woodworkers 1-2 hours or more to make arrows for one ranger's use in one raid sure they should be paid for it they will therefore price accordingly.

The worst way to realize a profit is mass marketing when you do not have an automated system of assembly.  Arrow profitability only works when you keep prices low and make a ton.  Since individual players still have to do that crafting I bet that will get old pretty fast.  I'll want to have good ammo for good dps.  But hey, a scintillating dust on Antonia Bayle goes for 20+ gold apiece.  I'm already going through a plat of poisons and potions per raid.  If my ammo consumption drops to half of what it is now I still see a huge expenditure coming IF the woodworkers want a profit worth the crafting time.

In which case this is still senseless.  Rangers are STILL paying for their dps in a way nobody else is.  We are beholden to either players or vendors, and players tend to be more arbitrary and capricious.  Unless we actually eliminate a dependency to pay for ammo that is of good quality for our dps that situation will not go away.

I'm sure we as rangers would be happy to support our fellow crafters by spending money for cool things.  We buy adornments, we buy additional things that will give us an edge.  Something like cool arrows that will do more damage or elemental damage or something sure we would be willing to pay for.

But reducing the damage on vendor and summoned ammo to force us to pay for what should be a luxury item out of ignorance for where our damage is coming from is uncalled for.  We're doing pretty good as is barring extreme poverty in some cases or annoyance in others, we are highly gear dependent for extremely rare drop items that you've already screwed with by allowing even more classes to use and get the bows we need.  Ammo has been a sore spot all the way through.  We need it, you keep doing things to make us need as good as we can get and you keep making it pricey.

Heck if I have to keep paying through the nose for my dps I better be doing some [I cannot control my vocabulary] fine dps and after raiding with the casters last night post the new spell resistance lowerings I think we can say that is not the status quo.   ((kudos to the casters for the damage but this is a ranger forum on a ranger issue)).   You are making these rare bows even more of a desperate case for us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by Hisvet on 02-01-2007 08:24 AM

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Old 02-01-2007, 09:26 PM   #60
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Interesting changes coming. Reading through the thread and I want to comment on a few things:

 

  1. Several people stated that we effectively have to pay for our damage and this is wrong. I totally agree with this. Yes other scouts pay for poisons but NOT for their primary damage time. Everytime I shoot an arrow its going to cost me XXX amount. That's not right.
  2. Any ranger who wants to perform effectively will not use the summoned arrow lines. Maybe we should consider just removing this line and the arrow rip line and replace them with other abilities. Perhaps a group buff that increases Raw attack rating similar to the spirit of the predator line from EQ1.
  3. We are at the mercy of a tradeskill class, this is wrong on many levels. SOME woodworkers WILL try to exploit this to make money. I feel lucky I am a 70 woodworker so I can be more or less self-suffcient.
  4. It would be really neat to see different magical damage type arrows to. Maybe they would be made from rare harvests or something. But having arrows that deal fire, cold or perhaps a poison DoT would be rather neat.
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