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Old 02-01-2007, 03:45 AM   #1
Lev

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Cause it's generally a good idea to care about all aspects of your class, not just the ones you yourself do not have problems with due to an item that will or will not be out of date with further expansions..Anyways, to clear something up, AA is a big part of the rangers dps so thats a bit of miscalculation.. of course this depends alot on what bow you got, but it is also alot about ranger mechanics (crits, procs etc.)In any way.. with the crafted arrow changes it will most likely be worth buying arrows over semi afk summoning arrows, as the time to summon them would greatly overgo the time it would take to make the money spent on arrows. I am not saying I am overly happy, as there is still some issues around it, but this is a big improvement and I think we should all be thankful for this bone. so now, Yes you will most likely be required to buy arrows to stay on top of your game, then again this will give you an increase in dps, and it will take down cost vs time.. cause as we know time is money. Still rather unfair that we have to spend plats to do our main job, but this is a good compromise.. not only did we get what many thought of a good solution to our consumption rate (CAs not using arrows), but also did we see an increase in arrows per recipe in effect a lower arrow price. Together it snowballs to quite alot more than you think right away. Auto attack still does use about 150 arrows in 10minutes depending on weapon delay and haste, but a medium hasted ranger with a long bow thats about 4seconds and 150arrows in 10 minutes.I really think that woodworkers should get an extra bone, give them 500 arrows or 5 stacks per recipe (495), and up the fuel requirement equally.. In my opinion this would not really change your current setup .. except for the fact that it would be less time consuming to make arrows. Of course raw requirements should be upped some as well to compensate.the reason I say this is that currently no woodworker will want to make arrows because it takes too much time with too little gain. and fact is with the current changes this has not changed.. Except for the fact that arrows will be consumed slower. I merely put this up as an suggestion to give woodworkers a reason to bother to make arrows for rangers and still make money on it.Other than that I think it's great and I am really happy with the changes.
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Old 02-01-2007, 03:50 AM   #2
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RabbitFly wrote:I really think that woodworkers should get an extra bone, give them 500 arrows or 5 stacks per recipe (495), and up the fuel requirement equally.. In my opinion this would not really change your current setup .. except for the fact that it would be less time consuming to make arrows. Of course raw requirements should be upped some as well to compensate.the reason I say this is that currently no woodworker will want to make arrows because it takes too much time with too little gain. and fact is with the current changes this has not changed.. Except for the fact that arrows will be consumed slower. I merely put this up as an suggestion to give woodworkers a reason to bother to make arrows for rangers and still make money on it.Other than that I think it's great and I am really happy with the changes.

I'm following this arrow info as a woodworker, not a Ranger.  And I think the changes they are going to do to arrow crafting is great.  First off, I can now actually make a profit on arrows, as they will have a measurable impact on performance.  If I can get a whole stack of arrows out per combine, I'm excited to make them.  You also have to consider that arrow consumption is going to drastically decrease, so woodworkers won't have to burn out 4000 arrows a day to keep up with demand.
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Old 02-01-2007, 04:04 AM   #3
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I am pretty excited about this.. a little bummed that the summoned arrows will be less.. but.. i dont leave much down time for autoattack durring raid fights anyways. This is going to lower my costs by probably 5-6 plat a week... I've been spending about 1.5 plat a raid on arrows.


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Old 02-01-2007, 04:04 AM   #4
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Rothgar1 wrote:
Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.

The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.

The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.




Hey Rothgar, you might want to double-check that.     My autoattack ranges from 40 up to 50% of my zonewide raid parse.    It was lower with legendary bow, but I don't think I ever saw it below 30+%.
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Old 02-01-2007, 04:04 AM   #5
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First, let me state how much I appreciate that this is finally being addressed. Clearly, you have listened to your customers, and are putting a lot of effort into making the situation better. Thank you.

However, I find that "pierce" is usually 30-40% of my damage on parses, even if I spam CA's and carefully time my damage buffs prior to quicker CA's. Unless "pierce" also includes CA damage (and I doubt it does based on the way ACT breaks out individual CA damage,) I would consider that to be a rather large part of my dps. Maybe I am doing something wrong... care to show a few of those parses for comparison? :smileyhappy:

Despite removing arrow consumption from CA's, I will have to pay for better arrows to maintain the exact DPS I am delivering today. (Using stockpiled reclaimed arrows will provide lower DPS for auto-attack, and therefore a lower overall sum for DPS.) That is an INCREASE, not a DECREASE, in actual cost to maintain the current status quo for ranged dps. 

Removing arrow consumption from CA's is awesome. It is a huge improvement. But, please leave current arrows as they are, and put the new (and hopefully abundant) crafted arrows somewhere between vendor/reclaimed arrows and T8 summoned/blessed/dropped arrows.

Edit: While you're making fixes, can you please have Point Blank Shot Arrow Rip recover arrows at the same tier as reclaimed? I am really starting to hate those [see, I can control my language] Indium arrows. :smileytongue:

 

Message Edited by jb11740 on 02-01-2007 06:22 AM

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Old 02-01-2007, 04:05 AM   #6
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 Thanks for the update, it sounds like a great idea! Will the prices for arrows on vendors be reduced or are they going to stay the same?

 

Message Edited by Veyor on 01-31-2007 03:06 PM

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Old 02-01-2007, 04:15 AM   #7
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Rothgar1 wrote:
This has been a hot topic for awhile and I'm pleased to say that GU32 will bring some nice changes.  Combat arts will no longer consume ammo with the next live update.  Only your auto-attack will use arrows.

Arrow damage is also being looked at and balanced so there will be a benefit to using better arrows.  Summoned arrows will provide the lowest damage, with vendor bought arrows being slightly better.  Crafted arrows will give the best dps, and among the three types of crafted arrows, each one will enhance either range, accuracy or damage.   Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down.  This in combination with them only being used for auto-attack should make it very feasible to use crafted arrows if you want to maximize your dps.  Keep in mind this will only affect the damage amounts on auto-attacks and not on combat arts. CA damage will still be affected by your stats and the tier of your bow.

If you have any questions or concerns about this change, I'll try to help.




Nice!!!  I'm really looking foward to this change.  Thanks for tipping us off on this future update SMILEY

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Old 02-01-2007, 04:17 AM   #8
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Does this mean that our ranged attacks will now be set in the damage they do? Right now, if I use rounded tip arrows, Triple Volley will deal crushing damage. If they are no longer using munitions, will they be set to a default damage type of peircing, or will they still look at whats in the ammo slot to see what type of damage to deal out?
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Old 02-01-2007, 04:24 AM   #9
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Rothgar1 wrote:


Xney wrote:

Errr... pretty sure a raiding ranger with a proper bow, lvl 70 legendary ammo, and buffs does at least 40% of their dps from auto-attack. 





So if you have lvl 70 legendary ammo why do you care about the dps decrease of Makeshift Adamantine?




Because when you wrote about "summoned arrows" it left things a bit uncertain, since Bazkul and Ichorstrand also "summon" arrows.

But from your response, it appears that your order of arrow effectiveness is only referring to arrows "summoned" from our reclaimed arrow CA and that T7 legendary ammo from Bazkul and Ichorstrand will remain at the top of the damage order after the GU 32 changes.  Which is how it should be.

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Old 02-01-2007, 04:33 AM   #10
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Rothgar1 wrote:


Xney wrote:

Errr... pretty sure a raiding ranger with a proper bow, lvl 70 legendary ammo, and buffs does at least 40% of their dps from auto-attack. 





So if you have lvl 70 legendary ammo why do you care about the dps decrease of Makeshift Adamantine?



Rothgar, thanks for the update.  This all looks pretty good on the surface, I sure hope it works out as planned.   I'm still using my Grizz and my parses show my autoattack damage at around 30-36% of my total DPS.  With a 6% decrease in auto attack using summon, if my math is correct, that'll be a bout a 2% decrease in total DPS with my current set up.  Obviously those with higher DR bows will see a greater decrease.  Is this in the ball park of how you envision the change?  If so, I can live with this.  We can use our summoned arrows for grouping and such and buy the crafted arrows for raiding.

Which brings me to this...  Buying crafted arrows seems like it'll be a must for the raiders who don't have the bows that summon the T8 ammo.  This is good news, unless the cost is prohibitive.  Do you think your new crafting ratios are going to help lower the market prices, or do you think we'll still be paying 6-7 gold per stack?  I'm only asking because if the arrows are still going to cost us as much as they do now, or more, we are going to still be in the same boat.  Well, only those of us who don't have the time to level up a T7 woodworker.

Edit:  I mis-spoke.  We won't be in the same boat exactly since the CAs won't burn ammo.  But I hope catch my drift.

Message Edited by Gareorn on 01-31-2007 03:38 PM

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Old 02-01-2007, 04:33 AM   #11
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jb11740 wrote:

First, let me state how much I appreciate that this is finally being addressed. Clearly, you have listened to your customers, and are putting a lot of effort into making the situation better. Thank you.

However, I find that "pierce" is usually 30-40% of my damage on parses, even if I spam CA's and carefully time my damage buffs prior to quicker CA's. Unless "pierce" also includes CA damage (and I doubt it does based on the way ACT breaks out individual CA damage,) I would consider that to be a rather large part of my dps. Maybe I am doing something wrong... care to show a few of those parses for comparison? :smileyhappy:

Despite removing arrow consumption from CA's, I will have to pay for better arrows to maintain the exact DPS I am delivering today. (Using stockpiled reclaimed arrows will provide lower DPS for auto-attack, and therefore a lower overall sum for DPS.) That is an INCREASE, not a DECREASE, in actual cost to maintain the current status quo for ranged dps. 

Removing arrow consumption from CA's is awesome. It is a huge improvement. But, please leave current arrows as they are, and put the new (and hopefully abundant) crafted arrows somewhere between vendor/reclaimed arrows and T8 summoned/blessed/dropped arrows.

Edit: While you're making fixes, can you please have Point Blank Shot recover arrows at the same tier as reclaimed? I am really starting to hate those [see, I can control my language] Indium arrows. :smileytongue:

Message Edited by jb11740 on 01-31-2007 03:13 PM

Message Edited by jb11740 on 01-31-2007 03:17 PM


What you fail to understand is standing around summoning arrows = spending time you could have spent making cash, so with the reduction in consumption and the lowering of price it will all in all be more proficient to buy crafted arrows than to stand there and summon, even if you do not consider dmg.Also, Sparql, that is great and I hope every woodworker feel that way, I was just considering the time vs gain. Seeing as this has not changed.

Message Edited by RabbitFly on 01-31-2007 03:36 PM

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Old 02-01-2007, 04:42 AM   #12
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You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.
 
I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. 
 
No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.

Message Edited by dubbs on 01-31-2007 03:45 PM

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Old 02-01-2007, 04:45 AM   #13
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With these new changes to arrow damage, are there plans to add the damage to the inspect window of ammo?
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Old 02-01-2007, 04:57 AM   #14
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dubbs wrote:
You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.
 
I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. 
 
No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.

Message Edited by dubbs on 01-31-2007 03:45 PM



Prices of arrows should also go down.  In OP dev said "Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down."  Until the changes are officially announced yeild/dmg changes are finalized shouldn't be pesimistic about it SMILEY  Personally, I'm very excited that any changes about ammo consumption are being looked at SMILEY
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:02 AM   #15
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I really don't get this you offer a fix, but its kinda backhanded.  We are going to lower your arrow consumption because we admit its too costly but at the same time we are going to nerf your free arrows so that you have to buy arrows from these other guys that way our fix works on two classes.  I'm not one to gripe about stuff and I myself have Bazkul so this won't impact me, but on a whole I find this change Dirty Pool and would much rather see it stay the way it is rather than have our intelligence insulted and our free autoattack damage nerfed by 6%.  I've said it in another post and I'll  say it again.   The order should be Storebought < Ranger Summoned/Normal Crafted  < Specialty Crafted < T8 Legendary (by a fair margin)   My logic in the T8 Legendary is this 1.  Its T8 not T7 so it should do more damage than anything T7 also Legendary should do more damage than Handcrafted. 
 
Also, nobody has still commented on weither us not using arrows for our CA's will still let us change the damage type by putting crushing or slashing arrows into the primary slot of the quiver.

Message Edited by Boramyr on 01-31-2007 04:04 PM

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Old 02-01-2007, 05:09 AM   #16
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All is fair in love and war unless you're a ranger SMILEYWe'll see how it pans out in a month or so...Arrow costs and consumption being reduced can only be a good thing in my opinion, and my oft lamented choice of becoming a woodworker will be rejoiced instead I think, that however requires a lot of leveling before it's usefull to myself, still at least it should be worth my effort and have something sellable at the end of a session SMILEY
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:09 AM   #17
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Hey Roth, any chance of reintroducing the mastercrafted ammo of old?
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:11 AM   #18
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dubbs wrote:
You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.
 
I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. 
 
No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.

Message Edited by dubbs on 01-31-2007 03:45 PM


Could not have said it better myself. To recap:
  • We still have to pay more than any other class for our DPS... my auto-attack on my Ranger ran anywhere from 30-45% of his total DPS per ACT (Pierce damage)
  • Our summoned arrows simply become a wasted skill unless we want to drop our DPS from what it currently is on live (for those of us that don't have T8 ammo)
  • The arrows per crafting combine for a Woodworker are getting increased. We are still at the whim of anothers players price for our DPS. Yes, we don't have to buy them if they are too high, but what happens when a greedy Woodworker buys all the arrows at a lower price and adds them to his own? Yes, some people will still probably buy them for raids so they will sell, but still... we have to pay for our DPS.
I don't mind buying poisons, but arrows and poisons are too much. I'll support this change when Swashbucklers have to use a whetstone for their DPS that are purchased from a Weaponsmith. Also, Wizards need an ice stone for Ice Nova (hey they don't have to worry about any auto-attack so they need them for their spells) and a fire stone for the flame spells that are purchased from a Sage. You can make all of those look nice by adding in effects like more damage for one type of stone with a greater chance of resist, or less damage with little chance for a resist. So they can get a little DPS without buying these consumable items, let them have makeshift stones.No, I would not wish that on the example classes I used above and think it simply stupid. However, this is the same thing that Rangers will be seeing. Casual rangers won't feel it as much since they won't have the longer play sessions. Many solo Rangers won't feel it that don't fight high end heroic mobs or names daily since they burn down the mobs faster than even having their auto attack go off but a couple of times. Those of us that do the harder instances and raid will feel it the most that do not have T8 ammo... how many of us are there without that ammo dispenser?Just do an Endless Quiver that you have to have filled with a single arrow. Each tier you have to upgrade the arrow in the quiver. Make it to where there are several arrow types per tier with different effects so that there is reason to buy multiple versions at each tier. After that, make them a little expensive to craft so that it is a one time rare purchase or common purchase like any other class in the game has to buy at each tier. Ranger drops 1pp (rare crafted example) per arrow type with 5 types (example only) of arrows per tier that wants every type. That nets 5pp per tier for a Woodworker to gain off a Ranger. If a Woodworker stays with the Ranger as a customer for 7 tiers and he buys all 5 types (example number again)... that is 35pp lifetime off one player. Sound like a lot? Maybe, but it still would be many times cheaper than what has been proposed over the course of a couple months of play time.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:23 AM   #19
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Microbolt wrote:

dubbs wrote:
You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.
 
I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. 
 
No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.

Message Edited by dubbs on 01-31-2007 03:45 PM


Prices of arrows should also go down.  In OP dev said "Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down."  Until the changes are officially announced yeild/dmg changes are finalized shouldn't be pesimistic about it SMILEY  Personally, I'm very excited that any changes about ammo consumption are being looked at SMILEY
You mean not be pesimistic about being at a player run economies whim? C'mon now you know human nature SMILEYPrices will probably start off a little high. Think about when cloaks first came out...T3 cloaks for 50g+? and they sold because the rich didn't care. Yeah, they slowly came down but it was a few weeks. Now, we will have to take a DPS cut while the prices normalize while the game goes on using makeshift arrows/reclaimed arrows etc or pay exorbant prices that will fluctuate.Soon there after, a smart/greedy Woodworker will realize his time is money and he can't keep up with the demand by selling them cheap. So he will raise his prices and notice that his stop selling. Well, heck... why not corner the market? Buy the cheaper guys'/gals' arrows and add them to my own sales merchandise since they were selling a low profit. His will still sell, albeit a little slower but for more profit and less work. The cheaper guys are still making some profit, but he is banking off of their work and his in a combined monoply. It happens with transmuting powders now, and with rares, and many other items. An arrow is more valuable than someone is willing to pay for it and more valuable to some people more than others. It doesn't change the fact that we are throwing coin at the mob for ammunition that we DEPEND on that no other class has to... well, to the same extreme.Not that I don't hope your right SMILEY I just don't see it happening... greed will prevail if we are forced to use another players recurring work for our playstyle.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:28 AM   #20
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Knightcrest wrote:

dubbs wrote:
You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.
 
I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. 
 
No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.

Message Edited by dubbs on 01-31-2007 03:45 PM


Could not have said it better myself. To recap:
  • We still have to pay more than any other class for our DPS... my auto-attack on my Ranger ran anywhere from 30-45% of his total DPS per ACT (Pierce damage)
  • Our summoned arrows simply become a wasted skill unless we want to drop our DPS from what it currently is on live (for those of us that don't have T8 ammo)
  • The arrows per crafting combine for a Woodworker are getting increased. We are still at the whim of anothers players price for our DPS. Yes, we don't have to buy them if they are too high, but what happens when a greedy Woodworker buys all the arrows at a lower price and adds them to his own? Yes, some people will still probably buy them for raids so they will sell, but still... we have to pay for our DPS.
I don't mind buying poisons, but arrows and poisons are too much. I'll support this change when Swashbucklers have to use a whetstone for their DPS that are purchased from a Weaponsmith. Also, Wizards need an ice stone for Ice Nova (hey they don't have to worry about any auto-attack so they need them for their spells) and a fire stone for the flame spells that are purchased from a Sage. You can make all of those look nice by adding in effects like more damage for one type of stone with a greater chance of resist, or less damage with little chance for a resist. So they can get a little DPS without buying these consumable items, let them have makeshift stones.No, I would not wish that on the example classes I used above and think it simply stupid. However, this is the same thing that Rangers will be seeing. Casual rangers won't feel it as much since they won't have the longer play sessions. Many solo Rangers won't feel it that don't fight high end heroic mobs or names daily since they burn down the mobs faster than even having their auto attack go off but a couple of times. Those of us that do the harder instances and raid will feel it the most that do not have T8 ammo... how many of us are there without that ammo dispenser?Just do an Endless Quiver that you have to have filled with a single arrow. Each tier you have to upgrade the arrow in the quiver. Make it to where there are several arrow types per tier with different effects so that there is reason to buy multiple versions at each tier. After that, make them a little expensive to craft so that it is a one time rare purchase or common purchase like any other class in the game has to buy at each tier. Ranger drops 1pp (rare crafted example) per arrow type with 5 types (example only) of arrows per tier that wants every type. That nets 5pp per tier for a Woodworker to gain off a Ranger. If a Woodworker stays with the Ranger as a customer for 7 tiers and he buys all 5 types (example number again)... that is 35pp lifetime off one player. Sound like a lot? Maybe, but it still would be many times cheaper than what has been proposed over the course of a couple months of play time.

I've said this all over the place, and many other wizards agree with me.  If you give us an auto attack that does the same (hell, half as much) DPS as yours, and I'll gladly pay for the consumables.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:31 AM   #21
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Those first two replies may seem like I don't like the idea, but it isn't completely true.It looks great on paper but it will remain to be seen when players get to control the prices and the supply. I don't like the fact that I take a DPS cut if I use my toon as is though. I can't really as I have shelved him basically since he was mid-T6 and already leveled a 70 Warden and a 53 Guard in the mean time... I like the Ranger better, but they basically free to play after I get their gear. I don't have to pay bills in a game to make them effective. Paying for my skill set daily just isn't fun.I'll sit neutral with him on the shelf and see how this pans out and hope for the best for everyone.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:34 AM   #22
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Knightcrest wrote:


Microbolt wrote:


dubbs wrote:
You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.
 
I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. 
 
No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.

Message Edited by dubbs on 01-31-2007 03:45 PM



Prices of arrows should also go down.  In OP dev said "Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down."  Until the changes are officially announced yeild/dmg changes are finalized shouldn't be pesimistic about it SMILEY  Personally, I'm very excited that any changes about ammo consumption are being looked at SMILEY

You mean not be pesimistic about being at a player run economies whim? C'mon now you know human nature SMILEY

Prices will probably start off a little high. Think about when cloaks first came out...T3 cloaks for 50g+? and they sold because the rich didn't care. Yeah, they slowly came down but it was a few weeks. Now, we will have to take a DPS cut while the prices normalize while the game goes on using makeshift arrows/reclaimed arrows etc or pay exorbant prices that will fluctuate.

Soon there after, a smart/greedy Woodworker will realize his time is money and he can't keep up with the demand by selling them cheap. So he will raise his prices and notice that his stop selling. Well, heck... why not corner the market? Buy the cheaper guys'/gals' arrows and add them to my own sales merchandise since they were selling a low profit. His will still sell, albeit a little slower but for more profit and less work. The cheaper guys are still making some profit, but he is banking off of their work and his in a combined monoply. It happens with transmuting powders now, and with rares, and many other items. An arrow is more valuable than someone is willing to pay for it and more valuable to some people more than others. It doesn't change the fact that we are throwing coin at the mob for ammunition that we DEPEND on that no other class has to... well, to the same extreme.

Not that I don't hope your right SMILEY I just don't see it happening... greed will prevail if we are forced to use another players recurring work for our playstyle.




I guess the point i was trying to make, is even if this fix is not perfect any help is better than getting no attention at all on the subject SMILEY 
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:36 AM   #23
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sparql wrote:

Knightcrest wrote:

dubbs wrote:
You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.
 
I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. 
 
No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.

Message Edited by dubbs on 01-31-2007 03:45 PM


Could not have said it better myself. To recap:
  • We still have to pay more than any other class for our DPS... my auto-attack on my Ranger ran anywhere from 30-45% of his total DPS per ACT (Pierce damage)
  • Our summoned arrows simply become a wasted skill unless we want to drop our DPS from what it currently is on live (for those of us that don't have T8 ammo)
  • The arrows per crafting combine for a Woodworker are getting increased. We are still at the whim of anothers players price for our DPS. Yes, we don't have to buy them if they are too high, but what happens when a greedy Woodworker buys all the arrows at a lower price and adds them to his own? Yes, some people will still probably buy them for raids so they will sell, but still... we have to pay for our DPS.
I don't mind buying poisons, but arrows and poisons are too much. I'll support this change when Swashbucklers have to use a whetstone for their DPS that are purchased from a Weaponsmith. Also, Wizards need an ice stone for Ice Nova (hey they don't have to worry about any auto-attack so they need them for their spells) and a fire stone for the flame spells that are purchased from a Sage. You can make all of those look nice by adding in effects like more damage for one type of stone with a greater chance of resist, or less damage with little chance for a resist. So they can get a little DPS without buying these consumable items, let them have makeshift stones.No, I would not wish that on the example classes I used above and think it simply stupid. However, this is the same thing that Rangers will be seeing. Casual rangers won't feel it as much since they won't have the longer play sessions. Many solo Rangers won't feel it that don't fight high end heroic mobs or names daily since they burn down the mobs faster than even having their auto attack go off but a couple of times. Those of us that do the harder instances and raid will feel it the most that do not have T8 ammo... how many of us are there without that ammo dispenser?Just do an Endless Quiver that you have to have filled with a single arrow. Each tier you have to upgrade the arrow in the quiver. Make it to where there are several arrow types per tier with different effects so that there is reason to buy multiple versions at each tier. After that, make them a little expensive to craft so that it is a one time rare purchase or common purchase like any other class in the game has to buy at each tier. Ranger drops 1pp (rare crafted example) per arrow type with 5 types (example only) of arrows per tier that wants every type. That nets 5pp per tier for a Woodworker to gain off a Ranger. If a Woodworker stays with the Ranger as a customer for 7 tiers and he buys all 5 types (example number again)... that is 35pp lifetime off one player. Sound like a lot? Maybe, but it still would be many times cheaper than what has been proposed over the course of a couple months of play time.

I've said this all over the place, and many other wizards agree with me.  If you give us an auto attack that does the same (hell, half as much) DPS as yours, and I'll gladly pay for the consumables.

Sure SMILEY  just as soon as we have Sniper's Shot on the same timer as Ice Nova :smileyvery-happy: or faster recast times on some of our other CA's to match a Wizard's.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:37 AM   #24
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Also for the rangers that cant afford the more expensive arrows -6% on autoattack isn't going to make much difference in the overall picture.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:40 AM   #25
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Microbolt wrote:
Also for the rangers that cant afford the more expensive arrows -6% on autoattack isn't going to make much difference in the overall picture.

Yup, if you were making a full 50% of your DPS from AA that makes it 3% which equates to 30 in the 1000.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:44 AM   #26
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Knightcrest wrote:
.Sure SMILEY  just as soon as we have Sniper's Shot on the same timer as Ice Nova :smileyvery-happy: or faster recast times on some of our other CA's to match a Wizard's.

I understand you say this in jest, but as a wizard I hate it when I hear things about our spells being "free"The fact is, we use an obscene amount of power, once that power is gone, our DPS is effectivly 0.  Melee classes rarely consider that, because its an issue they don't have to worry too much about (yes I am aware melee do go OOP too).   All they see is that one big number from our hits.  A good wizard, especially those who raid, pay for power potions and totems to keep power up as much as possible.  Granted, I don't spend as much on potions as you do on arrows.  When we are getting low on power, we can use potions, clickies or power heals.  All of which cost us DPS.  As a woodworker, I intend to make plenty of arrows under the new system, as there is actually an incentive for me to do so.  With the old system I only made arrows to level up and had to sell them at cost to compete with vendor arrows.  Not to mention I had to do 4 combines per stack, it took forever.  With the new system, I figure a ranger will use what, 1000 arrows on the average raid?  Maybe less?  At that rate I can quickly and easily make 10 stacks and toss them off to you guys at an affordable rate.  If you're on permafrost, look me up.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:46 AM   #27
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Nuladen wrote:

Microbolt wrote:
Also for the rangers that cant afford the more expensive arrows -6% on autoattack isn't going to make much difference in the overall picture.

Yup, if you were making a full 50% of your DPS from AA that makes it 3% which equates to 30 in the 1000.

Aye, doesn't seem like much in the scheme of things... think it is more principle for me that those that don't buy arrows now get any sort of reduction at all for the change. Tood bad we can't respec tradeskill classes... wishing I had gone Woodworker now instead of Carpenter on my Ranger.
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:17 AM   #28
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RabbitFly wrote:

What you fail to understand is standing around summoning arrows = spending time you could have spent making cash, so with the reduction in consumption and the lowering of price it will all in all be more proficient to buy crafted arrows than to stand there and summon, even if you do not consider dmg.


Also, Sparql, that is great and I hope every woodworker feel that way, I was just considering the time vs gain. Seeing as this has not changed.

Message Edited by RabbitFly on 01-31-2007 03:36 PM


Actually, I understand perfectly.

I think what you fail to understand is that we will still be paying to use our primary auto-attack, and perhaps more than before, to maintain previous damage levels. No other class in the game has to do that, or ever has.

You're assuming the price will be lower than vendor arrows. I hope it is, but until the recipe is updated, until woodworkers are in full swing, and until the market stabilizes, we won't know that.

Don't get me wrong. I already stated that the change to arrow consumption for CA's is wonderful, and I will be grateful when it goes live.  But reducing the effectiveness of the free arrows for the only class that requires them for primary auto-attack, with an option to pay to keep that effectiveness, is adding a cost component that did not exist previously.

That's the only conclusion possible, if you look at it honestly. Sorry.

So it's pretty simple. Make this a win for everyone involved, by keeping the cost and effectiveness of existing arrows the same, and making player crafted arrows substantially better than free or vendor arrows, but not nearly as good as legendary or fabled arrows. Give woodworkers quadruple yields on pristine, just like other crafted consumables, to make it worth their time and effort, and to make it economically feasible to improve your DPS if you chose to purchase the arrows to do so.

What I am asking for is a very minor tweak on what is already on the table.

And thanks again to the devs for working to fix this. I know it must be difficult to balance all of the factors involved, without breaking some other aspect of gameplay, or unfairly penalizing some other class.

 

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Old 02-01-2007, 06:18 AM   #29
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I'm not yet playing a ranger, but on the surface this sounds like a great change, both for them and for woodworkers.
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:38 AM   #30
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this change now makes the 14 plat master spell i got nearly useless. why not just take away the summon line and give us something else? looks like we're still reliant on crafters and buying dps to me.

summoned < vendor bought < crafter made    is just like

the vendor trash armor with all resists on it < cheap common crafted armor < rare imbued armor

no one uses the first 2 kinds

necro FTW

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