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Old 12-16-2006, 02:04 PM   #31
Drakall

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This seems to be a good thread raising some concerns. Lets please try to keep it on track and not let it slip into arguments/bickering.

Thank you.

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Old 12-16-2006, 04:20 PM   #32
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Than you Drakall, I would hate to see this thread turn into a flamefest. Just to clearify. Arrow consumption is a problem to all rangers, just not raiding rangers. Making excuses like "you need to spend more time playing so you can collect arrows" is not good enough. Point is not how much arrows you use or how much time you play. It all comes down to percentage. I will demonstrate this with some math based on example playstyles (casual - hardcore)Extremely Casual - 5 hours a weekAn extremely casual player can probably only play weekends, and probably has alot of other stuff that needs to be done, so he gets 2 hours saturday night, and 3 hours sunday morning (this is an example). An extremely casual player will likely not have anything better than an adept 1, so he/she will need to spend over 9 hours to fill a quiver (see my other post on page 1), thats close to 2 weeks. And 5 hours of constant adventuring is anywhere from 2000 to 6000 arrows, for the sake of this example lets say 2000 (cause it is about the number of a quiver and it was used in my other example). So in effect a casual player that only solos and groups need to spend two thirds (2/3) of his gaming time gathering arrows. That is about 67% (rounding numbers) of his/her game time.67%Extremely Hardcore - 7+ hours a day - 49+ hours a week, lets say 50 for this example.Now I am not gonna go into exact things a hardcore player do, cause it differs so much, so for the sense of this example if 5 hours took you 2000 arrows, then 50 hours would take you 20000 arrows. So basicly you multiply it by 10, leading to the exact same %. And to give everyone a little wake up call it would take you 95 hours + to collect anything close to 20000 arrows, which for a hardcore player could be used in a week.67%Of course you cannot really put it like this, cause no player does adventure 100% of his gametime, and some players craft, some players RP, some players do all sorts of things. Point is there is no difference in Hardcore and non hardcore players when it comes down to "time spent collecting vs. time spent using". Also there is the fact that you do gather while adventuring as well. But fact stands that no matter what you do you will have to spend AT LEAST twice the time you adventure collecting arrows. Also this example was shown using adept 1, where an Master 1 would give you more arrows per 10min, but you have to also take into consideration that I used the minimum arrow usage numbers in both calculations, therefore in most cases you will use more than 2/3 of your game time.And I am sorry if this post become confusing, I just wanted to put it black on white to show you that when it comes to "time spent collecting vs. time spent using" there is no difference. Yea a hardcore player spends more time collecting arrows, but he also adventures more. So in the end the timesink is the same. So anyways there you have it black on white, this is very unfair to say the least. For this kind of sacrifice rangers should be gods, best tanks, best dps, best healers. Cause there is no other class in this entire game that needs to spend a minimum of 67% of their gametime doing nothing just to function. I am not saying we should be gods, I am saying arrow consumption should be done something about.

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Old 12-16-2006, 07:46 PM   #33
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Rabbitflyadept 1 - 9 hours and 30 minutes = 2000 arrowsadept 3 - 7 hours and 20 minutes = 2000 arrowsMaster 1 - 5 hours and 30 minutes =2000 arrowsUsing your info here rabbit.
In one minute you use 19 arrows with CA's per minuteConfounding arrow 2 arrows per minTrippleVolly 3 arrows per minPrecise shot 6 arrows per minLeg shot 6 arrows per minCulling of the weak 1 arrow per minVieled fire 1 arrow every 1 min 30Shortbows use 13 arrows per min Longbows use 8 arrows per min (rounding down)So, total with shortbows we have 32 arrows per minuteLongbows we have 27 arrows per minuteSo, the time it takes to use 2000 arrows with a shortbow62.5 minsThe time it takes to use 2000 arrows with a longbow74minsThe time it takes to gather 2000 arrows with master 1 reclaimed - 5 hours and 30 minutes...The cost of using a shortbow in the time you can use claim 2000 arrows M1330min - 62.5 = 267.5 minutes*32 arrows per minute = 8560 arrows*7 silver per arrow = 59929 silver or 599 gold, or 6 plat..The cost of using a longbow in the time you can gather 2000 arrows m1330min-74= 256 minutes *27 Arrows per minute = 6912*7silver per arrow = 48384 silver, or 483 gold, or 4.8 plat..And I wonder why im broke SMILEY

Message Edited by LoreLady on 12-16-2006 06:47 AM

Message Edited by LoreLady on 12-16-2006 06:47 AM

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Old 12-16-2006, 07:54 PM   #34
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Fonrian wrote:
You should all just switch to PvP servers. 
Some might consider this measure a little drastic.:smileytongue:
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Old 12-16-2006, 08:56 PM   #35
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Exactly, Rabbit. I, as a soloing ranger, may not use arrows in the same quantity as a raiding ranger. But I use arrows in the same general ratio as a raiding ranger. We all need them for our CAs and constant use is going to exhaust all of our supplies, no matter how much we supplement it with summoning. Plus I'm in that area where my arrows are a lower tier, leading to less effectiveness and longer fights, meaning I end up using more than if my arrows were tier appropriate. But the ratio of usage still turns out to be very close to the same.
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Old 12-16-2006, 09:21 PM   #36
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TaleraRis wrote:Exactly, Rabbit. I, as a soloing ranger, may not use arrows in the same quantity as a raiding ranger. But I use arrows in the same general ratio as a raiding ranger. We all need them for our CAs and constant use is going to exhaust all of our supplies, no matter how much we supplement it with summoning. Plus I'm in that area where my arrows are a lower tier, leading to less effectiveness and longer fights, meaning I end up using more than if my arrows were tier appropriate. But the ratio of usage still turns out to be very close to the same.

Most of us realize that arrows hurt in all types of the game - raid/group/solo.. Solo wont hurt "as much" as raids - but it still hurts... ALOT.
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Old 12-16-2006, 10:18 PM   #37
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I'm getting fed up woth wasting all my money on arrows. I haven't been able to afford to buy a single Master spell yet. They have all come from guild or drops (and only one has dropped for me)
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Old 12-17-2006, 02:23 AM   #38
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Thanks for the math, Rabbit--that's definitely not my strongpoint. x.o

The past two nights, I've done raids. Thursday night, I did a very casual sort of run through with the first three drakota required to rez Vox in Fire and Ice. We RP'd a lot, so I had plenty of downtime to summon arrows and such in the midst of it.

Well, Friday night, I had a Deathtoll raid. I logged on about ten or eleven in the morning, and I did NOTHING but summon arrows. There was a period of maybe an hour or so when I was away from the keyboard, and so unable to summon, but for the most part my /entire/ day from ten or eleven in the morning to five-thirty at night was spent summoning, while I surfed the net or watched movies or whatever.

Guess what happened during that Deathtoll raid? Yeah. I ran out of summoned arrows and even two stacks of purchased tier appropriate arrows, and ended up using tin while waiting for my summon timer to refresh (My DPS, obviously, fell through the floor). I could go on a raid tonight in Lyceum, but that would mean dumping a plat or two solely on arrows, nevermind poisons. I could look for a group, but that too would cost about a plat in arrows. I could go solo with my tin arrows, spending a decent amount of time more with every mob, but then I would still be eating up my summoned arrows faster than I could summon them, which doesn't solve my problem.

So, before my next raid or group or considerable solo session, I have to sit online and spend hours and hours and hours summoning arrows. In the meantime, any other class in the game can go adventure whenever they like, raid whenever they like, solo whenever they like, and they don't have to empty their bank to do so.

Multiple solutions, many of them quite simple, have been proposed. It boils down to one of two things--either make our summon arrows ability able to keep up with our arrow consumption (and I mean KEEP UP, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that we should have to pay at all for our primary form of damage when damage is all we do, especially pay out the nose), or lower our arrow consumption so that our summon arrows ability is adequate for the amount of arrows used. Wizards are not charged per spell, Summoners do not see their money subtracted from when they summon pets, and assassins do not start having halucinations of ch-ching, ch-ching noises every time they swing their weapons. Having to pay for poisons just to keep up with classes that don't use them is ridiculous enough (but that's a general scout woe, not just ours, and not the focus of this thread) but having to pay plat on top of that is insane.

I know the devs really don't like the idea of Endless Quiver, but I have to ask why. Every melee class already has the equivilent, and mages only have to spend seconds, not hours, to replenish their power supply.

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Old 12-17-2006, 04:27 AM   #39
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kartikeya wrote:

Thanks for the math, Rabbit--that's definitely not my strongpoint. x.o

The past two nights, I've done raids. Thursday night, I did a very casual sort of run through with the first three drakota required to rez Vox in Fire and Ice. We RP'd a lot, so I had plenty of downtime to summon arrows and such in the midst of it.

Well, Friday night, I had a Deathtoll raid. I logged on about ten or eleven in the morning, and I did NOTHING but summon arrows. There was a period of maybe an hour or so when I was away from the keyboard, and so unable to summon, but for the most part my /entire/ day from ten or eleven in the morning to five-thirty at night was spent summoning, while I surfed the net or watched movies or whatever.

Guess what happened during that Deathtoll raid? Yeah. I ran out of summoned arrows and even two stacks of purchased tier appropriate arrows, and ended up using tin while waiting for my summon timer to refresh (My DPS, obviously, fell through the floor). I could go on a raid tonight in Lyceum, but that would mean dumping a plat or two solely on arrows, nevermind poisons. I could look for a group, but that too would cost about a plat in arrows. I could go solo with my tin arrows, spending a decent amount of time more with every mob, but then I would still be eating up my summoned arrows faster than I could summon them, which doesn't solve my problem.

So, before my next raid or group or considerable solo session, I have to sit online and spend hours and hours and hours summoning arrows. In the meantime, any other class in the game can go adventure whenever they like, raid whenever they like, solo whenever they like, and they don't have to empty their bank to do so.

Multiple solutions, many of them quite simple, have been proposed. It boils down to one of two things--either make our summon arrows ability able to keep up with our arrow consumption (and I mean KEEP UP, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that we should have to pay at all for our primary form of damage when damage is all we do, especially pay out the nose), or lower our arrow consumption so that our summon arrows ability is adequate for the amount of arrows used. Wizards are not charged per spell, Summoners do not see their money subtracted from when they summon pets, and assassins do not start having halucinations of ch-ching, ch-ching noises every time they swing their weapons. Having to pay for poisons just to keep up with classes that don't use them is ridiculous enough (but that's a general scout woe, not just ours, and not the focus of this thread) but having to pay plat on top of that is insane.

I know the devs really don't like the idea of Endless Quiver, but I have to ask why. Every melee class already has the equivilent, and mages only have to spend seconds, not hours, to replenish their power supply.


I dont mean to bash you, or your idea's by any means.. I just put down EQ everytime I hear it because I try and think im in sony's shoes as im giving suggestions.. If I am sony, I have to keep woodworkers happy by allowing woodworkers to sell arrows/knives etc, I have to keep rangers happy by rangers not requiring a woodworker to survive.. Endless quiver hurts woodworkers but helps rangers... What do you do in this situation?
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Old 12-17-2006, 05:20 AM   #40
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I haven't played my ranger in ages but I remember the pain of buying arrows. I came up with a few ideas that might fix the problem.
 
1. When the corpse of whatever we've been pincushioning is looted we get back a % of the arrows we stuck in him (yes I've been playing Oblivion :smileyvery-happySMILEY
 
2. Add an ability to bounty where when the mob dies, we get that miniscule amount of copper, AND we get some arrows.
 
3. Scrap bounty entirely and have it an ability that takes away the arrow cost for CA's or just reduces our use of arrows entirely (so something to make the ability useful)
 
4. As we gain levels have a passive ability in place where it takes more shots to actually use up an arrow. At level 20 maybe it takes 3 shots to use 2 arrows and at 70 maybe it takes 4 to use 1 (unrealistic I know, but this is a game with fireballs and dragons). I could be like a baby endless quiver.
 
Feel free to comment or flame :smileywink:
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Old 12-17-2006, 08:12 AM   #41
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LoreLady wrote:

I dont mean to bash you, or your idea's by any means.. I just put down EQ everytime I hear it because I try and think im in sony's shoes as im giving suggestions.. If I am sony, I have to keep woodworkers happy by allowing woodworkers to sell arrows/knives etc, I have to keep rangers happy by rangers not requiring a woodworker to survive.. Endless quiver hurts woodworkers but helps rangers... What do you do in this situation?




Here's the thing: arrows are USELESS right now for woodworkers. Why? Because vendor arrows are cheaper, and woodworkers can't really offer a product that makes paying the extra price worth it. I'd be interested to know how many woodworkers even bother to stock arrows over totems. Honestly, while I'd say most tradeskill classes are hurting right now, woodworkers are right down at the bottom of the pile (along with the poor, poor weaponsmiths). How to keep woodworkers happy? They aren't happy right now at all.

I hate to drag back to Endless Quiver, because I think there are more solutions than that (though making rangers pay for their primary means of damage, when they offer NOTHING but damage, is again, very, very unbalanced, whether you pay 1cp or five plat), but when EQ was introduced in Shadows of Luclin, very specialize arrow types were introduced as well (I THINK these were elemental damage arrows, it's been a while). These arrows were pricey to create, and were sold at very high costs, but since you only needed one of them once you had earned EQ, it was worth the price and added a little extra to what you could do, while allowing you to specialize in damage types base on what mobs you were fighting.

On the fly, my solution toward fixing the arrow insanity making Woodworkers unhappy would be somewhere along these lines: let Woodworkers continue to make what they can make now (and possibly bump up the return/and/or lower the fuel costs so they can compete with vendor prices) but also let them make /specialized/ arrows that actually do mean something in gameplay. Let them make rare arrows again. Let them make arrows with specialized damage types (elemental, divine, magic, etc.). Let them make arrows that have some sort of effect to them (debuff, snare, whatever). And then limit what type of arrows actually works with Endless Quiver/summon arrows/CA usage, blah blah whatever, so that it adds useful flavor, but doesn't take a massive flying leap into the realm of overpowered. I don't mind spending coin, even a lot of coin, on extra utility/damage...my beef comes in when I have to spend a ton of coin just to do what I'm supposed to be able to do in the first place.

Another option would be to let woodworkers create some sort of specialized arrow summoning kits, akin to how the Deathtoll bows work now (minus the T8 arrows, of course). But that seems something of a more clunky patch job over two problems to me, unless it were implemented very carefully.

Bottom line, ranger and woodworker problems are actually linked: we require so many arrows that we can't afford to buy from the NPC vendor, let alone a player, and they can't make a product that either offers more than the vendor product to make up for the price, OR is cheaper to make that they can price it lower than the vendors.

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Old 12-17-2006, 11:47 AM   #42
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Arrows are pretty much borked for woodworkers, and there are several steps that need to be taken for them to work at all, and I figure this will be painful as hell. First off what is that decides the minimal price of crafted items in eq2 today? Fuel costs. So to effectively lower the price on arrows, there has to be more arrows per craft, and/or lower fuel costs for arrows (give arrows a special fuel ingriedent f. ex). Second off there is slot usage, if the price on arrows is lowered the 99 stack will be worth less, and therefore to make gold on arrows a woodworker will have to sacrifice more inventory and broker slots, which again would hurt them. Therefore the max stack of arrows (ammo) would have to be increased as well. This would again help to counter our inventory problems and plat spending issue, however we still use 2000-8000 arrows a day (depending on what you spend your gametime on). So the cost of arrows would need to be lowered considerable for it to still be effective. And that still doesn't justify the balance issues with other classes not having to spend the same ammount on ammo. I am having big problems seeing a solution at all. If arrows was worth dirt [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], no woodworkers would bother making them anyways, and we would end up buying from vendor anyways. So something needs to be thought up here, and I have no idea what would really fix this for both woodworkers and rangers, However something needs to be done. Cause atm it isn't working for either, and IMO this is worse for the rangers than the woodworkers
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Old 12-17-2006, 04:24 PM   #43
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Making arrows is one of the dullest and most tedious things I've ever done as a woodworker, 25 arrows for a pristine combine, at however long that takes, filling a reasonable sized quiver is repetitive boredom, woe is you if it's a bigass quiver SMILEY
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Old 12-17-2006, 04:48 PM   #44
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I may have missed the mark here, as my ranger is still in the 20s, but to me the simplest solution to this would be...

1, make all ranged ammo stack to 500 instead of 99

2, make crafted arrows return 100 per combine instead of 25, and reduce the price of vendor bought arrows by half

3, make all reclaimed arrows summon 4 times more arrows than it does now (240 for level 62 master).

then you are bascially getting 4 times the amount of arrows as you are now from either crafting or reclaimed arrows, woodworkers will be favored over vendor bought arrows, which they may or may not like, and you can carry enough arrows on you to last a day or two at least.

As i said, my ranger is still very low, and I doubt I would ever raid with him. but even at level 20 i had noticed that i was spending more on arrows, poisons and repairs combined than I was actually making adventuring, and of the 16 or so toons i have taken to the mid to late 40s, he is the only one that has been a loss in terms of coin.

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Old 12-17-2006, 05:37 PM   #45
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Seeing as this thread has dragged me in so much I happend to mention it to one of my friends ingame. And it was suggested that I should /feedback this every day and that I should get as many other to do so as well.Fact is Devs don't respond to forum posts very often and we don't even know if they have read this thread. Therefore I am asking all you to /feedback this every day. Don't make it too demanding or rude, but every day mention how bad this really is. And frankly I don't care if you have a master and the AAs to counter this, or a DT bow. Fact is it is a problem and not everyone have the luxury of this. Therefore I am on my knees beggin you, I want to see this fixed in one way or another.. Maybe even something temporary until they think up a proper solution. So please if you have some minutes spare everyday spend them on writing a small feedback.
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:52 AM   #46
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LoreLady wrote:
ANo one here is saying that soloers and groupers dont have a arrow problem

Actually there was someone earlier in the thread (not you) saying exactly that and Kart and I were arguing that point SMILEY
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:29 AM   #47
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Nevermind....:smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by Gareorn on 12-18-2006 12:31 PM

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Old 12-19-2006, 01:32 AM   #48
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Arrows consumption was the reason that I decided to not roll a ranger when I started. I remeber in FFXI rangers spent a ton on arrows but they were unmatched in DPS.  I wouldnt have a problem with that.  But to spend the amount of cash you guys do to basicly play second fiddle in terms of DPS is a crock.  I'm not even a ranger and I support there being some kind of fix.
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:44 AM   #49
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Giland wrote:
After endless quiver was added to EQL, it was stated several months later what a huge mistake that was. Once a consumable is no longer consumable, every instance of creating specials for it must balance around the fact that some could keep that special forever.
 Imagine it with food for example. There is a quest drink that grants 40% haste. If a player got the benefit from, but never actually used that drink, they get a significant advantage over others.
What happened in EQL with endless quiver? Everyone got 1 of each type of special arrow and never had to get any other arrows again.

I believe that arrow consumption is a problem too. I do not however want something like endless quiver. I would rather keep the door open for special consumables in future expansions.
As others have stated, I think the best thing would be for CAs not to use arrows, but check to verify an arrow is available in the quiver. That would keep people from being OOA but still able to use CAs and cut down consumption of arrows



I touched on this real briefly in my post, but I'll reiterate:

There is no way I'd want an Endless Quiver where we could use special arrows for infinity. That would be like an uber poison that never ran out. If such a thing were introduced, and special arrows existed, then I would fully expect them not to work together, as it would be incredibly unbalanced.

HOWEVER

No other class in the game has to pay, and pay massive amounts at that, in order to perform their primary role. Assassins do not pay per swing of their weapon (apart from poisons, but they're still doing damage), monks do not pay to swing their fists, guardians do not pay every time a mob hits them, wizards do not pay per spell, and summoners do not pay per pet.

If an assassin doesn't buy poisons, their DPS goes down, but they aren't prevented from using the vast majority of their CA's by it. Other classes use arrows, but at most it's something like three CA's. We bust in to do melee only when our ranged CA's are down, and if we can't use our ranged CA's at all, our primary role, that of damage, falls through the floor and keeps on falling.

I wouldn't mind grouping more, especially to start working on my EoF aa's. But two or three raids a week kills me already, I can't imagine the costs it takes for rangers that raid and group constantly.

Step away from Endless Quiver for a moment. Heck, all SOE would have to do is bump up our summon spell to what the DT bows currently put out, or possibly a bit more (and maybe bump them up too, to make the inevitable T8 not render Ichorstrand completely useless). Maybe make stacks of arrows larger, to help with inventory problems. Then you've got something that is LIKE Endless Quiver, in that we don't have to worry about running out of arrows so long as we pay attention, but they can still add in specialized arrows and the like down the line without worrying about giving us all free uber passes (as obviously, our summon ability only summons tier appropriate arrows).

On a nearly irrelevant sidepoint--someone needs to do something with the rip line in T7. It doesn't really summon enough to matter much, but it would be nice not to have stacks of grey con arrows piling up.

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Old 12-19-2006, 03:33 AM   #50
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Its a simple fix too. They just need to significantly lower the price on the vendors.  It could probably be down without even patching any code out. 
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:25 PM   #51
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There are STILL many solutions without throwing in endless quiver:CA's use no arrows (quick fix and it would help a LOT)WW able to make 999 arrow bundles - single combine, reasonable price, fits in one slotAD1 summons 99 arrows AD3 two stacks Master summons three.More bows, more common that summon arrows: ALL TIERS
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:06 PM   #52
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Hi all, just your friendly neighborhood troll swashie (yes I know we are teh handsomest.. no need to crowd) saying I feel for ya guys :smileysad:I agree with CA's not using arrows and perhaps something else.Hmm I dunno have the options to tuen AA into Arrow Expierence, so you can get arrows instead of exp?Ok that's a bit silly...In any case Teksu, might I suggest you change your sig so litle dollar signs or plat pieces fly away (with lillte halos and wings) as you shoot off arrows.Good luck guys
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:43 PM   #53
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Nezumigami wrote:

In any case Teksu, might I suggest you change your sig so litle dollar signs or plat pieces fly away (with lillte halos and wings) as you shoot off arrows.
Good luck guys



*giggles* Hey,that's a good idea. Too bad I don't think sound would go over well here, or you could add little 'ch-ching' noises as well, Tek.
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Old 12-19-2006, 11:09 PM   #54
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Everytime I win money on the Goblin game I think somebody is emptying my quiver over my head.
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:07 AM   #55
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LoreLady wrote:

kartikeya wrote:

I know the devs really don't like the idea of Endless Quiver, but I have to ask why. Every melee class already has the equivilent, and mages only have to spend seconds, not hours, to replenish their power supply.


I dont mean to bash you, or your idea's by any means.. I just put down EQ everytime I hear it because I try and think im in sony's shoes as im giving suggestions.. If I am sony, I have to keep woodworkers happy by allowing woodworkers to sell arrows/knives etc, I have to keep rangers happy by rangers not requiring a woodworker to survive.. Endless quiver hurts woodworkers but helps rangers... What do you do in this situation?

First of all, very good thread going here from an outsider perspective.  You guys have done an excellent job of presenting exactly the right amount of information needed to inform the developers and other players on the issues of which you suffer.Now, the issue is the woodworkers and their need for supplying crafts to others out there.  IMHO, the issue of carpenter vs woodworker spans from the lack of overall available market for their items.  The best solution would be to combine the two artisan classes, also IMHO.  Otherwise, the obvious solution would be the need to implement new recipes that would have a similar level of need in comparison (or greater) to arrows.  Perhaps in the form of alchemical ammo, where the cost was higher, the production rate per less, but the broker price per reflective of this as well and would not count as appropriate ammo for the endless quiver.  These could be specific damage type arrows, enhanced range arrows, and so on.I honestly believe that a restructuring of the craft classes would be beneficial overall as well as help to fight issues with finding certain crafters over others and encourage even more competition among various crafting classes.  If not overall, than at least in respect to carpenters and woodworkers.

I would say that the option of bumping up production amounts for crafters would be a better solution overall, though, as it would affect rangers at all levels (not just those who get an EQ) and it wouldn't take away from the ability to provide items in regards to woodworkers.  And, the argument for such a thing in opposition to woodworkers who would say that they would make less now that they sell more for the same price is that it is possible that they could have more people buying from them due to the now reasonably available amount of arrows.  In addition, the alchemical versions could always be added in at t3+ recipes with higher costs to offset the loss of money from normal arrows.

Message Edited by Loki_d20 on 12-19-2006 03:14 PM

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Old 12-20-2006, 01:38 AM   #56
Gerdos

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If SOE were to change the mechanics, there's really only 2 viable options.

(1) Improve the number of arrows supplied from our arrow summoning CAs.

eg.  Adept1 = 60,  Adept3 = 75,  Master1 = 99  @ 10mins.

At M1, this would be a 66.66% improvement to the current rate.   More then enough to cater to all rangers but the core raiders.   Then you'd have the option to go down the AA tree for the time improvement.   Putting 5 points into it, would then be equivalent to the DT bows.   Which is equivalent to an endless quiver.

OR

(2) Increase the quantity produced for Woodworkers from 25 to 99.   Keep the cost to just below the current vendor prices.   (eg. 4-5g to vendors +6g).

 

Keep the CA's as they are, requiring arrows .. and keep the bow's available in game limited to summoning arrows to just the 2x DT bows and maybe add 1 (or 2) more in EoF or the adventure packs brought in during EoF.

 

 

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Old 12-20-2006, 03:07 AM   #57
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That wouldn't solve anything for me wtih adding 30 arrows every 10 minutes.
 
Pretty much no raider will take the arrow summoning ability we cannot afford the drop to dps and we need the arrows.  Arrow summoning ability gives us no special arrows at all just what we need to even use our CAs.  Our dps is heavily AA, gear, buff dependent.  We can't control much outside of the AA.
 
I work a normal job  I'm not spending my mornings crafting or selling or harvesting or farming, I'm working.  After that I'm raiding, questing and doing instances.   Instances take as much in arrows as raiding, maybe more.   I don't have the M1 book.  I cannot afford to buy the M1 book there are very few out there and there are a ton of rangers looking for it.  If it drops, go me, it never has in any group I've been in in the 10 months I've wanted it to.  Just like the bows.  An item that drops once per 4-6 months is hardly going to be able to sustain the raiding ranger population only a small percentage of rangers have it.  If you enjoy waiting a year for a piece of equipment that makes you viable to the raid group carrying you a long then kudos to you.  I go on to the other class forums and read their discussion of buffs and how they think its a waste to apply them to rangers etc.  Its not fun.  I'll get my 100 AAs I'll get some adornments long before I get the bows I need and I'll have arrow problems keeping me poor along the way.  You cannot get the bows if you do not raid, to maximize your chance you're going on all the raids you can not just for the chance at the bows but for the dkp to afford them when they do drop.  If you're raiding you're not making arrows you can use to raid you're also not making much money.  So you pay.
 
Woodworkers do NOT make their money from arrows.  So all this discussion of saving the poor woodworkers is just not doing it for me.  Combine with Carpenters, great idea, give them more recipes to do, fine idea making them just slightly cheaper then vendor not a good idea.  Woodworkers think arrows are too tedious to make.   With only a small price difference that won't change.  People won't buy, woodworkers won't craft them.  Time is money too, woodworkers have in game lives.
 
If they got specialty arrows that were T8 or did special affects sure.  If they were half the price of the vendor and they weren't tedious to make then we'd buy.  Doing a combine 40 times for one person's order even at 100/stack is still darned tedious.  They can make more money with totems and less work.  And I need thousands of arrows a week.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:30 AM   #58
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Hisvet wrote:
That wouldn't solve anything for me wtih adding 30 arrows every 10 minutes.
 
Pretty much no raider will take the arrow summoning ability we cannot afford the drop to dps and we need the arrows.  Arrow summoning ability gives us no special arrows at all just what we need to even use our CAs.  Our dps is heavily AA, gear, buff dependent.  We can't control much outside of the AA.
 
I work a normal job  I'm not spending my mornings crafting or selling or harvesting or farming, I'm working.  After that I'm raiding, questing and doing instances.   Instances take as much in arrows as raiding, maybe more.   I don't have the M1 book.  I cannot afford to buy the M1 book there are very few out there and there are a ton of rangers looking for it.  If it drops, go me, it never has in any group I've been in in the 10 months I've wanted it to.  Just like the bows.  An item that drops once per 4-6 months is hardly going to be able to sustain the raiding ranger population only a small percentage of rangers have it.  If you enjoy waiting a year for a piece of equipment that makes you viable to the raid group carrying you a long then kudos to you.  I go on to the other class forums and read their discussion of buffs and how they think its a waste to apply them to rangers etc.  Its not fun.  I'll get my 100 AAs I'll get some adornments long before I get the bows I need and I'll have arrow problems keeping me poor along the way.  You cannot get the bows if you do not raid, to maximize your chance you're going on all the raids you can not just for the chance at the bows but for the dkp to afford them when they do drop.  If you're raiding you're not making arrows you can use to raid you're also not making much money.  So you pay.
 
Woodworkers do NOT make their money from arrows.  So all this discussion of saving the poor woodworkers is just not doing it for me.  Combine with Carpenters, great idea, give them more recipes to do, fine idea making them just slightly cheaper then vendor not a good idea.  Woodworkers think arrows are too tedious to make.   With only a small price difference that won't change.  People won't buy, woodworkers won't craft them.  Time is money too, woodworkers have in game lives.
 
If they got specialty arrows that were T8 or did special affects sure.  If they were half the price of the vendor and they weren't tedious to make then we'd buy.  Doing a combine 40 times for one person's order even at 100/stack is still darned tedious.  They can make more money with totems and less work.  And I need thousands of arrows a week.

Just have to comment here, woodworkers make all the ammo in the game, throwing stars, arrows, throwing axe's,  throwing knives, darts, as well as totems, and ranged weapons and small shields.. Ammo is around 1/2 of the woodworkers recipie list, we dont make money off of ammo simply because the same can be baught for cheaper and quicker.. Personally, I refuse to take orders from ANYONE asking for ammo for any reason. It takes too long, with too little reward..What I find funny, the ichorstrand effectively gives us 4times as much arrows for a greater effect than our master 1 summon.
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:35 AM   #59
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Well i have other idea on that issue (for you information im 70 woodworker too and never craft ammo... pointless).The idea is to change few thing in our oh not so great survival line of EoF AAs. First this sprint boost... who sane would use it? if you want run faster just enhance patfinding, its sufficent and dont eat power... instead of this put skill that add +5 summoned arrows per level... its than 25 arrows when maxed, with increased reuse timer it still isnt that great as ammo summoning bow but imho sufficent...The last ability... be friend with animal... few likes it but imho its uselles, find me animals in dungeons, raid zones our instances? and that 90% of our hunting in rwality or even more... instead change it to hmmm Master Ranger or something like that that will change summoned arrows into legendary arrows... than you just need to lower aa point requirements for last "special" abilities on other lines so we can move enough points into this line.Still owners of arrow summoning bow would have insane advantage: more arrow summoned, summoned arrows are t8 legendary compared to t7 AND they dont need to spend AAs there... This would vastly improved mostly grouping soloing rangers, in groups my dps is already high enough becouse not so many great tanks, and this arrows would help a lotAnd to what do to woodworker? batch 99 anything lower is laughable, and arrows gives diffrent effect like flame arrows, toxic arrows, crushing/sashing arrows as we have already (good for mobs with piercing immunity) and add them to like +10 to hit chance when using them this would create market that dont exist atm if creating cost would be half the vendor arrows cost so we can earn some cash on it (it wouldnt be much though)
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Old 12-20-2006, 07:39 PM   #60
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Throwing in my opinion here, id like a fix that doesnt involve aa's - that givesme something to sell, and something that I can give say a guardian to use for an extra boost of some sort.
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