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Old 07-29-2006, 08:13 AM   #61
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Well ok then, they finally did what we asked them to do in a number of threads. A Dev have responded to all the concerns and stated that they think we are fine when it comes to DPS. That means we wont be adjusted as many of us want. Those playing a ranger for the DPS and raiding will most likely betray to assasin and those playing a ranger for the character of the class will prolly stay (and roll out an alt). Some might even quit game i guess. Cant say im happy about the outcome but thats where its at.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:20 AM   #62
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just leads me to believe that something is either wrong with there parsers or with 9/10 of the rangers in the forums...

Message Edited by Teksun on 07-28-2006 11:20 PM

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Old 07-29-2006, 08:24 AM   #63
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Lockeye wrote:
Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In none of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.

Message Edited by Lockeye on 07-28-2006 06:28 PM


now, im in now way debating your zonewide/serverwide parse things, but go checkout a raiding guild with a ranger in it, see where he stands up to the other classes, i know i haven't been beaten by one (im a brigand) in t7, nor have i known any other t1-2 dps ever lose to one regularily. Im just thinking, there has to be something missing in your serverparses, check encounter parses of raid guilds that have rangers (if you can find many) i can bet they will very much differfrom yours. even still, send me or anyone in dissolution a PM, ill give you our server parsechannel and you can read our average dps, and find a ranger in game that could match or beat our t1-2 dps, and hey, maybe ill comp your account SMILEYedit, btw, our parses go like this generallyassassin-> necro or conj -> wizard -> brigand -> brigand -> zerker -> warlockif we did have a ranger in guild, he wouldn't make top8, i've seen our templar do the kind of dps our old ranger use to average before he quit (yes, it's over 1000 SMILEY )

Message Edited by Riversideblues on 07-28-2006 09:29 PM

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Old 07-29-2006, 08:28 AM   #64
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Lockeye wrote:
Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In none of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.

Message Edited by Lockeye on 07-28-2006 06:28 PM


And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:29 AM   #65
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Ixnay wrote:

ChaosUndivided wrote:
Thanks for the reply, I guess I'll have to talk to my guildies about fabricating the parses and magically making it to the top every time.
Hey bud, just have all your necro's and conj's name their pet's "Khalan", and you will show up in the parse again!
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:32 AM   #66
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Sirlutt wrote:

Lockeye wrote:
Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In none of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.

Message Edited by Lockeye on 07-28-2006 06:28 PM


And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.

So what you're saying is that a large majority of well-respected rangers here are nothing but a bunch of liars and don't know how to play their class?
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:33 AM   #67
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Anxion wrote:
Lockeye,
 
Let's see your raw data. Let's see how it stacks up against all the parses here. It's one thing to say you have the data, it's quite another to share said data.
 
 
 

i'd love to see some of this data too.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:39 AM   #68
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TaleraRis wrote:


Sirlutt wrote:


Lockeye wrote:
Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In none of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.

Message Edited by Lockeye on 07-28-2006 06:28 PM


And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.




So what you're saying is that a large majority of well-respected rangers here are nothing but a bunch of liars and don't know how to play their class?



Yes, that's what both him and lockeye are implying.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:39 AM   #69
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TaleraRis wrote:

Sirlutt wrote:

Lockeye wrote:
Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In none of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.

Message Edited by Lockeye on 07-28-2006 06:28 PM


And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.

So what you're saying is that a large majority of well-respected rangers here are nothing but a bunch of liars and don't know how to play their class?

nopeBut in the majority of rangers do not raid, they group and solo.  Their DPS is just fine usually.When you have 90% with a decent average, and 10% with a lower average, the overall average is still going to be ok.  The data  is correct.It doesnt represent a raiding ranger neccissarily..
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:42 AM   #70
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Sirlutt wrote:

It doesnt represent a raiding ranger neccissarily..



Um...

In my experience as a player that groups and raids with a few raid equipped Rangers, I haven't seen anything to indicate from their parsers that Rangers would be deficient in producing anything short of the top ranking DPS numbers for their group or raid, and it reflects what I see in Ranger serverwide performance across all player categories.

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Old 07-29-2006, 08:45 AM   #71
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After the whole "We didn't know 60% of ranger DPS came from Procs" Fiasco, I take their "data" with a grain of salt.

 

He just stated Rogues and Summoners don't ever outdps Rangers. If that's not enough to throw doubt into his statement I don't know what is.

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Old 07-29-2006, 08:52 AM   #72
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MystaSkratch wrote:

Sirlutt wrote:
It doesnt represent a raiding ranger neccissarily..

Um...

In my experience as a player that groups and raids with a few raid equipped Rangers, I haven't seen anything to indicate from their parsers that Rangers would be deficient in producing anything short of the top ranking DPS numbers for their group or raid, and it reflects what I see in Ranger serverwide performance across all player categories.

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i see the same thing.. the rangers i raid with do fine on the parses, we all trade up top spot on the parses depnding on whose timers are up etc etc etc.I think the data is correct.. i think its alot more correct than anything i've seen on the forums, even individual parses.  they only show you what an individual , or gorup of ondividuals do .. says nothing to the class as a whole across all servers.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:54 AM   #73
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I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually post a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:57 AM   #74
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It's very disheartening to see such a post by a dev.  I cannot understand how their "data" so obviously conflicts with so many people's direct experience.  I'd really like to see where all this damage is coming from--it's not from our sub-par CAs, and it's not from our sub-par DR bows...so what is all this uber dps coming from?

I mean...are the damage numbers/refresh rates on all the CAs and bows just displaying wrongly?  Are we actually doing much more damage than is showing up on log parsing?  If that's the case, could these display problems be corrected so we know where we stand? :p

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Old 07-29-2006, 09:05 AM   #75
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MystaSkratch wrote:
I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually post a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.
I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:07 AM   #76
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Sirlutt wrote:


MystaSkratch wrote:
I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually post a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.

I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.



And what do you think those things that SoE Uses to collect data are? Their just server side parses.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:10 AM   #77
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If I was a ranger the first thing I'd be doing is posting parses that say, look at the summoners and assassins kill me in dps.  Look at the rogues.  But I'm not a ranger, you guys are on your own there.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:12 AM   #78
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Sirlutt wrote:

 
I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison. 



Hey, I have a better way to compare to classes that do nothing but DPS.  Wait, no I don't.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:13 AM   #79
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ChaosUndivided wrote:

Sirlutt wrote:

MystaSkratch wrote:
I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually post a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.
I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.

And what do you think those things that SoE Uses to collect data are? Their just server side parses.
yep but they dont just have the parses of one zone with 2 rangers on a random night.. or 5 zones over 3 weeks of 4 rangers.. or what ever you want to throw up.they have the data of every battle that every ranger across every server has fought. I am betting they run all kinds of mining on it to mean it, probably bell curve it and god knows what else.  I guarantee you they dont just run it though through ACT.Race teams dont run down to the nearest mustang dyno generally for tuning, they pull the engine and put it on an engine dyno and do tuning there.  Sony monitors probably a whole bunch of data points throughout the game, who kills what, who loots what.. who buys what.. their parses arent concerned with how close you are to the action, or the lag ... or how many seconds after message xyz in your log to stop the timer.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:14 AM   #80
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Ill see if I can bring Khalan out of retirement for a few raids skratch and post what parses I have. Keep in mind we're not as much of a dps orientated guild as you guys but our ratios of damage should still be the same.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:17 AM   #81
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MystaSkratch wrote:

Sirlutt wrote:
 
I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison. 

Hey, I have a better way to compare to classes that do nothing but DPS.  Wait, no I don't.
compare what ?.. you dont have any rangers remember.  ACT parses are fine for lookin at whats hitting your MT, for who's breaking that mezz or a hundred other things.. for how much overall DPS roughly is being put on a mob.  I've seen a number of times 3 different people's parse look completely different.. they are further or closer to the action, or a number of other things that can skew the parses.  Not to mention you cant accurately compare what I parsed in Labs tonight with what your raid parsed in Lyceum the other night, or even labs last night.  Too much changes.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:18 AM   #82
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Sirlutt wrote:


ChaosUndivided wrote:


Sirlutt wrote:


MystaSkratch wrote:
I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually post a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.

I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.



And what do you think those things that SoE Uses to collect data are? Their just server side parses.

yep but they dont just have the parses of one zone with 2 rangers on a random night.. or 5 zones over 3 weeks of 4 rangers.. or what ever you want to throw up.

they have the data of every battle that every ranger across every server has fought. I am betting they run all kinds of mining on it to mean it, probably bell curve it and god knows what else.  I guarantee you they dont just run it though through ACT.

Race teams dont run down to the nearest mustang dyno generally for tuning, they pull the engine and put it on an engine dyno and do tuning there. 

Sony monitors probably a whole bunch of data points throughout the game, who kills what, who loots what.. who buys what.. their parses arent concerned with how close you are to the action, or the lag ... or how many seconds after message xyz in your log to stop the timer.



Yeah and I don't look at 2 parses and determine Rangers need help either. I look at hundred's of parses over 6 months of raiding, I look at tons of parses from other raiding guilds, 1st hand accounts of ranger damage.

And honestly raw server data like they would be collecting does no good either as far as I'm cocerned since it has no context. It has no real game play factors taken into consideration. Their are a ton of intangibles raw data like that will never pick up but a smart player with a parse will do absolutely that.

This isn't just about Top Dps, it's about Potential DPS also.

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Old 07-29-2006, 09:21 AM   #83
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MystaSkratch wrote:
I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually post a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.


Perhaps we should allow an experienced and well geared ranger to app, with an offer to guild them if they can make the top 6 parse on any raid.

IMO, that would provide the most credible proof possible that what we know is correct and what the devs believe in this matter is incorrect.

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Old 07-29-2006, 09:23 AM   #84
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Lockeye wrote:
Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In none of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.

Message Edited by Lockeye on 07-28-2006 06:28 PM



Sigh.  This is just what I was afraid of.  SoE's dps measurement tools are crude averaging data collectors. They don't follow specific raids...they take server-wide averages.

SoE probably defines a "raid" as any grouping of more than 6 players.  Their automated data collector probably tabulates data with that definition in mind.  Face it, there are a lot of pretty poorly constructed "raids" out there with some pretty poor players.  Think pick up relic runs...those are probably called "raids".  Think of "random casual guild 01" who raids 2 or 3 times a week...a relic run, Lyceeum (where they don't beat all the names and/or get their heads handed to them) and some T6 content.  Now multiply "random casual guild 01" times 10 or 15 for the other so-called raid guilds on each server.  Tabulate all that data...average it all together...and its no wonder that rangers do ok relative to the other classes.  The dps performance of rangers (and other classes) is going to be overall craptastic...rangers in those events are probably just a bit less craptastic.  Server averages such as these are in no way representative of what occurs in high end guilds fighting high end content.  Just by weight of numbers the server dps averages will be reduced to the lowest common denominators.

So you might say "Well, what's the problem?  Averages are averages...and rangers on average are better at dps than rogues, etc."

I'll tell you:  because averages don't indicate how classes scale in dps when in high performing raids with high performing players.

An analogy.  Think of racecars.  Now "driver R"  drives a late model Pontiac.  He races in short track and dirt track races all over the country.  In these races, all of the cars are recent models but with mostly stock parts.  No one has a lot of money to get the best engines/tuning/etc.  The drivers are all one step above amateurs.  "Driver R" with his Pontiac drives in 25 races and he generally finishes in the top 2 or 3 spots.  He's on average pretty good, right?

So one day "Driver R" with his Pontiac get to race at a real NASCAR race.  His sponsor gives him a little money.  His Pontiac gets a bit of race tuning, but no major overhaul.  He gets a first class pit/support crew, just like all the other cars in the race.  "Driver R" and his Pontiac finish 10 laps behind the next to last finisher.  "Driver R" must suck...right?  Not really.  His car is simply outclassed.  No amount of tuning will overcome the basic inferiority of the car itself in a real NASCAR race where only the best drivers race and all cars have the best equipment and are tuned to perform to their maximum potential.  "Driver R's" Pontiac needs a completely new engine, tires, and other racing modifications to compete in NASCAR.

So after the race, "Driver R" goes to his sponsor and says that his car needs a complete overhaul to be able to compete.  But his sponsor says "No way.  On average you've been finishing in the top 2 or 3 spots in your races".  "You just need to drive better".  Unfortunately for "Driver R", NASCAR officials, upon hearing of "Driver R's" sponsor's obtuseness, tell "Driver R" that he and his car are no longer welcome at NASCAR races...others will provide better entertainment and be more safe to the other drivers.

So "Driver R" is condemned to race the rest of his career on short tracks.  He wanted to fly with the eagles but he will only waddle with the turkeys.  But on average, he'll be a 2.2 turkey.

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Old 07-29-2006, 09:25 AM   #85
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Sirlutt wrote:

compare what ?.. you dont have any rangers remember.  ACT parses are fine for lookin at whats hitting your MT, for who's breaking that mezz or a hundred other things.. for how much overall DPS roughly is being put on a mob.  I've seen a number of times 3 different people's parse look completely different.. they are further or closer to the action, or a number of other things that can skew the parses. 

Not to mention you cant accurately compare what I parsed in Labs tonight with what your raid parsed in Lyceum the other night, or even labs last night.  Too much changes.


Say I post a 3 Princes parse that has me and the conjuror doing 1500 dps for 5 minutes, the necro and wizard doing 1200, and the rogues at 1000.  Would you (or anyone) be able to post a parse of 3 Princes with the same classes and a ranger in it?  That would let you compare my parse to yours (by what classes did what) and  then where your rangers are at from there.  Yea, there's a lot of variables, but we're talking high end raiding here.  If you're not in a group where your stats are capped and you're getting buffs that benefit you, then you aren't exactly raiding high end yet.  If mobs aren't being debuffed to their fullest, then you aren't raiding high end yet.  It wouldn't be the perfect comparison, but it's better than the current comparison you guys have, which is nothing at all.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:25 AM   #86
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ChaosUndivided wrote:

Sirlutt wrote:

ChaosUndivided wrote:

Sirlutt wrote:

MystaSkratch wrote:
I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually post a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.
I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.

And what do you think those things that SoE Uses to collect data are? Their just server side parses.
yep but they dont just have the parses of one zone with 2 rangers on a random night.. or 5 zones over 3 weeks of 4 rangers.. or what ever you want to throw up.they have the data of every battle that every ranger across every server has fought. I am betting they run all kinds of mining on it to mean it, probably bell curve it and god knows what else.  I guarantee you they dont just run it though through ACT.Race teams dont run down to the nearest mustang dyno generally for tuning, they pull the engine and put it on an engine dyno and do tuning there.  Sony monitors probably a whole bunch of data points throughout the game, who kills what, who loots what.. who buys what.. their parses arent concerned with how close you are to the action, or the lag ... or how many seconds after message xyz in your log to stop the timer.

Yeah and I don't look at 2 parses and determine Rangers need help either. I look at hundred's of parses over 6 months of raiding, I look at tons of parses from other raiding guilds, 1st hand accounts of ranger damage.

And honestly raw server data like they would be collecting does no good either as far as I'm cocerned since it has no context. It has no real game play factors taken into consideration. Their are a ton of intangibles raw data like that will never pick up but a smart player with a parse will do absolutely that.

This isn't just about Top Dps, it's about Potential DPS also.


seenow that i can agree with pretty much .. but its the same for parses.  you mentioned above you'd get some parses to compare, but with so many of the variables being different, who isnt to say that the things that are "not the same" across the 2 parses arent whats making them different ?you probably did this in junior high science class, you cant compare 2 sets of data where you arent controlling the variables, not effectively anyhow.  You can draw vague conclusions from it perhaps, and maybe thats what people are doing.  But you cant compare the damage you as a ranger did against what skratch does unless your in the same raid fighting the same mobs with the same debuffs on them with the same equipment.  Take ALL of the other factors out of the equation so its just your raw CA's against his... and even then its not going to be really effective unless you have the same person playing both, who knows how to play both.  Probably not going to happen.. but you could get pretty close to ruling out alot of the variables.. the biggest ones is fighting the same mob with the same debuffs and using the same equipment so your stats should be pretty similar.I dont think even Sony has that data.  The data lockeye is talking about takes all fo that out of the equation by not comparing 1 ranger and 1 assassin, but ALL rangers and ALL assassins.  In that comparison it doesnt matter what equipment or level of spells any one ranger has because its averaged across all of them.  Its not perfect data either but it certainly HUGELY reduces the amount any one ranger or assassin can sway the results.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:26 AM   #87
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Here is my problem with what lockeye has said and gamewide parsings... It doesnt take into account the damage diffrence on the rangers dance for top end raiders. Rangers do double the typiccal auto attack then all other classes because we exploit it to stand out to be our very best. While, what I have put effort into has shown CA's only it does not take into account the ranger dance. Assassins do 20-30% more damage on there CA's, the part I have a problem with is more effort should equal more dps.. But unfortunatly in the ranger case, more effort exploiting the auto attack system ultimatly results in this..Unfortunatly this is a point I cannot put on papper, and even if I try and debate it with a braindead idiot.. I will loose.. What I CAN do though is call out for every ranger, and every other class to post parsings on each raid they go to. And, to let everyone know if they are doing the rangers dance or not.. It makes a diffrence. I will be posting anything I do, with how many people I had on that raid from labs trash to large raids from day to day. Just remember, that most of my raids have 3 groups or less in them.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:29 AM   #88
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MystaSkratch wrote:

Sirlutt wrote:
compare what ?.. you dont have any rangers remember.  ACT parses are fine for lookin at whats hitting your MT, for who's breaking that mezz or a hundred other things.. for how much overall DPS roughly is being put on a mob.  I've seen a number of times 3 different people's parse look completely different.. they are further or closer to the action, or a number of other things that can skew the parses. Not to mention you cant accurately compare what I parsed in Labs tonight with what your raid parsed in Lyceum the other night, or even labs last night.  Too much changes.

Say I post a 3 Princes parse that has me and the conjuror doing 1500 dps for 5 minutes, the necro and wizard doing 1200, and the rogues at 1000.  Would you (or anyone) be able to post a parse of 3 Princes with the same classes and a ranger in it?  That would let you compare my parse to yours (by what classes did what) and  then where your rangers are at from there.  Yea, there's a lot of variables, but we're talking high end raiding here.  If you're not in a group where your stats are capped and you're getting buffs that benefit you, then you aren't exactly raiding high end yet.  If mobs aren't being debuffed to their fullest, then you aren't raiding high end yet.  It wouldn't be the perfect comparison, but it's better than the current comparison you guys have, which is nothing at all.
you and Khalan should try to get something like that sorted out.  Going to be real tough though to get it similar across both raids, might be able to get it close.. who knows.  I know both of you know your classes well,.I still think though that its got its own set of problems just like lockeyes data, but his is less succeptable to being shifted by the differences like that.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:33 AM   #89
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Ok lore, I always agree with you but ffs stop calling it the rangers dance. That's what I call normal ranger play, it's not a dance. Stand 4m From the mob and do your stuff. no Dancing Required.
 
You make it sound like it's this big complicated thing, it really isn't it's how I play every day with my ranger. Every ranger should be doing it, if he's not he needs to Learn 2 Play. It's standard Stuff.
 
I think your overhyping this ranger dance nonsense. If rangers don't stand 5m from the mob, then they suck, their is a sweet spot to stand where you can do ranged and melee attacks, no exploiting about it.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:34 AM   #90
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LoreLady wrote:Here is my problem with what lockeye has said and gamewide parsings... It doesnt take into account the damage diffrence on the rangers dance for top end raiders. Rangers do double the typiccal auto attack then all other classes because we exploit it to stand out to be our very best. While, what I have put effort into has shown CA's only it does not take into account the ranger dance. Assassins do 20-30% more damage on there CA's, the part I have a problem with is more effort should equal more dps.. But unfortunatly in the ranger case, more effort exploiting the auto attack system ultimatly results in this..Unfortunatly this is a point I cannot put on papper, and even if I try and debate it with a braindead idiot.. I will loose.. What I CAN do though is call out for every ranger, and every other class to post parsings on each raid they go to. And, to let everyone know if they are doing the rangers dance or not.. It makes a diffrence. I will be posting anything I do, with how many people I had on that raid from labs trash to large raids from day to day. Just remember, that most of my raids have 3 groups or less in them.
the real problem with lockeyes data is that raiding rangers are the minority, so even if every raiding rangers DPS dropped by 100 DPS lets pretend, it wouldnt shift his averaged numbers much if any at all.  If it raised the same amount, it wouldt go up much either.  His data is across lets pretend 50,000 Rangers.. the DPs of 1000 of them isnt going to move the averages alot either way. There are flaws in both systems i guess.. i'm thinking through both areas as i type alot of this and i see his POV, Rangers as a whole, across all game styles are showing up fine in the data.  Raiding rangers and those more serious grouping rangers see in individual parses this isnt true.. his data also probably included rangers of all levels maybe.. thats gonne be changing it alot too.anyhow.. i dont think the difference is a large as people think.. but i'm a newb assassin and happy with where  I fall in the parse.
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