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Old 09-23-2006, 06:05 AM   #781
Tarryn

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In all fairness, he never said "useless."  He said essentially that there are no ways in which we are more useful than any other given class on a raid.

In general, that's true.  There are no ways we particularly stand out, no areas in which our usefulness exceeds any other class on any given role.

We're probably not the only class in that position, but it still hurts to go from "premier DPS and nothing else" to "good DPS and nothing else."  We, and the other few classes likely in a similar position, need some re-examination.

Message Edited by Tarryn on 09-22-2006 07:06 PM

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Old 09-23-2006, 07:07 AM   #782
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Tarryn wrote:

In all fairness, he never said "useless."  He said essentially that there are no ways in which we are more useful than any other given class on a raid.

In general, that's true.  There are no ways we particularly stand out, no areas in which our usefulness exceeds any other class on any given role.

We're probably not the only class in that position, but it still hurts to go from "premier DPS and nothing else" to "good DPS and nothing else."  We, and the other few classes likely in a similar position, need some re-examination.

Message Edited by Tarryn on 09-22-2006 07:06 PM


Yea, we arent the only class in a bad spot.. Warlocks have it pretty bad - and shadowknights also have it pretty bad atm.. Hell, I have a feeling on the new expansion bards arent going to be so hot (havent checked out the new beta, just my own predictions).
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Old 09-23-2006, 05:18 PM   #783
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For the love of TUNARE I thought this thread had died!!!!!!!!!

1.)  We are not useless (you maybe......  I'm not therefore you can not say "we" )

2.)  I do raid

3.)  I am the only ranger in my guild that raids. We have others they choose not to raid the choice is thier's they are not asked to sit out

4.)  While my guild is not the most uber of the uber we are raiding DT and we got access on our own!!!

5.)  I have had the raid leader change targets to easier targets when they thought I was not gonna be there.

6.)  I work my butt off for every bit of my dps and my guild has never questioned my effort or asked me to sit out for another dps class.  In fact I have volunteered my spot for an extra healer/brig/bard/chanter and have been told flat out NO, that if I wasn't going there would be no point in even trying.

7.)  No we are not on par where we should be as T1 DPS.  We need some tweaking in casting/recast timers.  We need the group buffs/procs that only work on a successful melee attack changed to work on any successful attack to include ranged.  We need to see either more long bows with actual DR equal to 2h weapons or we need to see the current ones in game get a boost to their DR.  We need to have more then just 2 means to get level 70 ammo since it greatly affects our auto attack damage.

8.)  We DON'T need to keep revisiting this tired thread and we DON'T need RANGERS attacking RANGERS in these forums.  There are ways to debate topics in a civilized manner unfortunately we haven't seen it in this thread lately. 

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Old 09-24-2006, 02:42 AM   #784
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For the love of TUNARE I thought this thread had died!!!!!!!!!

We're out of game now, you can /turn off roleplaying for a minute and take down your Legolas poster.

1.)  We are not useless (you maybe......  I'm not therefore you can not say "we" )

Me maybe? If what you've said is all you have to come with in defense of the rangers usefullness as a class - god man, go play your SK. You're a much more useless ranger than I'll ever be.

2.)  I do raid

We're not talking about Runny Eye pickup groups.

3.)  I am the only ranger in my guild that raids. We have others they choose not to raid the choice is thier's they are not asked to sit out

I think the point of this thread few by you at mock 2.

4.)  While my guild is not the most uber of the uber we are raiding DT and we got access on our own!!!

As opposed to the DT fairy putting the access under your pillow while you sleep?

5.)  I have had the raid leader change targets to easier targets when they thought I was not gonna be there.

rofl?

6.)  I work my butt off for every bit of my dps and my guild has never questioned my effort or asked me to sit out for another dps class.  In fact I have volunteered my spot for an extra healer/brig/bard/chanter and have been told flat out NO, that if I wasn't going there would be no point in even trying.

you must have good ventrillo jokes.

7.)  No we are not on par where we should be as T1 DPS.  We need some tweaking in casting/recast timers.  We need the group buffs/procs that only work on a successful melee attack changed to work on any successful attack to include ranged.  We need to see either more long bows with actual DR equal to 2h weapons or we need to see the current ones in game get a boost to their DR.  We need to have more then just 2 means to get level 70 ammo since it greatly affects our auto attack damage.

Awesome, you said something on topic.

8.)  We DON'T need to keep revisiting this tired thread and we DON'T need RANGERS attacking RANGERS in these forums.  There are ways to debate topics in a civilized manner unfortunately we haven't seen it in this thread lately. 

Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I never claimed I was Mr.Likable and I really don't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you like how I'm saying something, what I have to say, or how I say it, cause I will say it anyway and won't give a hoot what you think about it, ever...

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Old 09-25-2006, 02:16 AM   #785
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Akient wrote:

Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I never claimed I was Mr.Likable and I really don't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you like how I'm saying something, what I have to say, or how I say it, cause I will say it anyway and won't give a hoot what you think about it, ever...



You sure got that part right!  Attacking someones well thought out post with personal jibes, trite phrases and sub-moronic rhetoric is no way to get your point across.  I am assuming that you actually have one, but I have been wrong before
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Old 09-25-2006, 08:33 PM   #786
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Prandtl wrote:


Akient wrote:

Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I never claimed I was Mr.Likable and I really don't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you like how I'm saying something, what I have to say, or how I say it, cause I will say it anyway and won't give a hoot what you think about it, ever...



You sure got that part right!  Attacking someones well thought out post with personal jibes, trite phrases and sub-moronic rhetoric is no way to get your point across.  I am assuming that you actually have one, but I have been wrong before


Ditto. I guess I haven't seen the point(s), if any, b/c Akient has yet to post something new or useful. This is all ground that's been covered in depth already.

Somehow, I'm not all that surprised. I don't think he really HAS a point, just ranting about old news with the typically boring macho attitude and the usual "I'm a forum badass" swagger. /yawn

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Old 09-25-2006, 08:42 PM   #787
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This is my most favoritesesesestes thread .. EVAR!!.. for truely!since postingin this thread before, I have seen many rangers post decent parses and realised their is nothing wrong with Ranger DPS, there is something wrong with Bow Itemisation because a Ranger with the right tools does as much damage as an assassin with the right tools.  The Assassin tools are just easier to get.Fix the bows and you fix the rangers.  Raise the DR of bows across the board, make the existing high end bows a bit more plentiful and add a few others, make them ranger only.Then you whiners will need to find something else to do with your time..
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Old 09-26-2006, 03:27 AM   #788
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Sirlutt wrote:This is my most favoritesesesestes thread .. EVAR!!.. for truely!since postingin this thread before, I have seen many rangers post decent parses and realised their is nothing wrong with Ranger DPS, there is something wrong with Bow Itemisation because a Ranger with the right tools does as much damage as an assassin with the right tools.  The Assassin tools are just easier to get.Fix the bows and you fix the rangers.  Raise the DR of bows across the board, make the existing high end bows a bit more plentiful and add a few others, make them ranger only.Then you whiners will need to find something else to do with your time..

Since your responding to ak, and we all know im not a whiner (meaning, complaining about something without doing something to backup my claims) SMILEYAnyways, I will be honest here and this is one of those times I will throw opinion in.. But if they make my eq2 ranger into a eq1 ranger im going to be [Removed for Content]... I want it so that the harder I work for dps (button mashing) the higher my dps is going to be..  I dont want to sit on my pansy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and go afk for 10 mins with the lil birdy toy (simpsons thing) hitting auto attack while I go afk for an hour.. I want to be able to work for my DPS.. Now, here are some speculations I have for EoF.. Sony will ballance cast times or damage in some sort, and sony will give us some back ranged attacks to move with to do that rangers dance to fill the auto attack lapses. I also suspect that they will make "crafting ammo" usefull and less of a burden that does similar or more dps to mark (well, I am going to assume if we are spending a rare or whatever for arrows that thers going to be a bonus - again predictions)Now - despite our problems I still enjoy playing a ranger.. I dont mind putting the extra work into getting that "last bit of dps" I really enjoy it, and I love games that are like that.. That arent ok - point, your dead.. NEXT!!! I love doing the rangers dance, although I wish that there was more mechanics that allowed us to do it effectively (IE - snaring shot on the move or something like that - or a back ranged attack etc)..Now that my own RL doom and gloom has kinda passed, my outlook on sony/rangers has gotten alot better.. And I can understand why they are being so slow to fix obvies fix's.. Everything comes to those who wait.. Unfortunatly, most of us have been waiting since LU 13 SMILEY (thats what 1-2 years SMILEY).. And dont ask me why your current state of mind effects the current state of your class.. But it does SMILEY Its when your current state of your class that effects your current state of mind you know you have a problem SMILEY
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:20 AM   #789
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Gareorn wrote:
For the love of everything holy, please let this thread die.  I really don't mean to be rude, but of all the threads to necro...
 
I know your intentions are honorable.  But please, we need a break from all the DPS/utility debates.

QFE (Not directed at LoreLady or anyone in particular)
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Old 09-26-2006, 05:12 AM   #790
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not gonna read all 9 pages i always parse at least 2100 on any fight , for easier ones, like the second eye, about 4800 yeaaa /flex ok, that was a load of shyte =-P a persons dps is respective to the raids, if the raid does more dps, so you do so if you want to post your average dps, post your raids too
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Old 09-26-2006, 09:14 AM   #791
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LoreLady wrote:

Sirlutt wrote:This is my most favoritesesesestes thread .. EVAR!!.. for truely!since postingin this thread before, I have seen many rangers post decent parses and realised their is nothing wrong with Ranger DPS, there is something wrong with Bow Itemisation because a Ranger with the right tools does as much damage as an assassin with the right tools.  The Assassin tools are just easier to get.Fix the bows and you fix the rangers.  Raise the DR of bows across the board, make the existing high end bows a bit more plentiful and add a few others, make them ranger only.Then you whiners will need to find something else to do with your time..

Since your responding to ak, and we all know im not a whiner (meaning, complaining about something without doing something to backup my claims) SMILEYAnyways, I will be honest here and this is one of those times I will throw opinion in.. But if they make my eq2 ranger into a eq1 ranger im going to be [Removed for Content]... I want it so that the harder I work for dps (button mashing) the higher my dps is going to be..  I dont want to sit on my pansy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and go afk for 10 mins with the lil birdy toy (simpsons thing) hitting auto attack while I go afk for an hour.. I want to be able to work for my DPS.. Now, here are some speculations I have for EoF.. Sony will ballance cast times or damage in some sort, and sony will give us some back ranged attacks to move with to do that rangers dance to fill the auto attack lapses. I also suspect that they will make "crafting ammo" usefull and less of a burden that does similar or more dps to mark (well, I am going to assume if we are spending a rare or whatever for arrows that thers going to be a bonus - again predictions)Now - despite our problems I still enjoy playing a ranger.. I dont mind putting the extra work into getting that "last bit of dps" I really enjoy it, and I love games that are like that.. That arent ok - point, your dead.. NEXT!!! I love doing the rangers dance, although I wish that there was more mechanics that allowed us to do it effectively (IE - snaring shot on the move or something like that - or a back ranged attack etc)..Now that my own RL doom and gloom has kinda passed, my outlook on sony/rangers has gotten alot better.. And I can understand why they are being so slow to fix obvies fix's.. Everything comes to those who wait.. Unfortunatly, most of us have been waiting since LU 13 SMILEY (thats what 1-2 years SMILEY).. And dont ask me why your current state of mind effects the current state of your class.. But it does SMILEY Its when your current state of your class that effects your current state of mind you know you have a problem SMILEY

i think your taking it to the extreme.  A large part of my DPS is from the weapons I use.  The same should be true for Rangers.  You can want to get your DPs from button mashing all you want, but Auto Attack plays a VERY large part in damage.  Increasing that will increase your over all DPS and help you out.   Thats FACT.  FACT in so much as Rangers with the right bows ARE parsing well.
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Old 09-26-2006, 07:15 PM   #792
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It's not that rangers don't do great dps, it's because other class do equally great dps plus things like dispatch.  In order for a ranger to be viable on a raid he/she needs to have most the guilds brigands,swashbucklers, zerkers, summoners killed.
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Old 09-27-2006, 12:02 AM   #793
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Sorry Lockeye but i call BS!!!!!.... EVERY ranger ive ever seen or heard cant touch an assassin's dps i dont know the exact problem but there is no way to keep up as a ranger, maybe if you got the sarnak bow but thats like the only way..
 
are you looking at conj necro parses or assassin parses? 
 
i admit i cant parse as much as a pve ranger, but i pull 1100 tops with half adept3s and half masters, rain, selection veiled and a couple others are masters.. so the ones that matter.. with max STR ( around 650 in my group) and 100% haste.. i play on a pvp server so i havent had time for all the gear etc.. but even so with swashes and conjs that are in my raid with similar gear and spell quality that constanly out parse by a 300ish ..
they other rangers in the raid are at my dps or slightly below.
 
maybe i could keep a constant 1200 dps if i could sniper every time and use killing instinct every time and rain every time...
 
my record parse on a quick fight was 1497 dps and that is like tops ever... when i hear of assassins pullin 2k +
 
ive seen our conj parse 2k and swashes near that...
 
Im AA speced AGI and STR... INT would be better for raid dps but str for pvp so thats why i went str...
 
also i LOVE and i mean LOVE .. SOE math... end str line says will decrease recast time of a long term recast dmg skill (over 2 min recast) by 50%... so you take 15 min and decrease it by 50%...what do you get????
 
NORMAL people would figure this out to 7.5 minutes... well SOE math =  10 min... i dunno how they got that but plz explain
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:32 PM   #794
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EQGuru wrote:
Sorry Lockeye but i call BS!!!!!.... EVERY ranger ive ever seen or heard cant touch an assassin's dps i dont know the exact problem but there is no way to keep up as a ranger, maybe if you got the sarnak bow but thats like the only way..
 
are you looking at conj necro parses or assassin parses? 
 
i admit i cant parse as much as a pve ranger, but i pull 1100 tops with half adept3s and half masters, rain, selection veiled and a couple others are masters.. so the ones that matter.. with max STR ( around 650 in my group) and 100% haste.. i play on a pvp server so i havent had time for all the gear etc.. but even so with swashes and conjs that are in my raid with similar gear and spell quality that constanly out parse by a 300ish ..
they other rangers in the raid are at my dps or slightly below.
 
maybe i could keep a constant 1200 dps if i could sniper every time and use killing instinct every time and rain every time...
 
my record parse on a quick fight was 1497 dps and that is like tops ever... when i hear of assassins pullin 2k +
 
ive seen our conj parse 2k and swashes near that...
 
Im AA speced AGI and STR... INT would be better for raid dps but str for pvp so thats why i went str...
 
also i LOVE and i mean LOVE .. SOE math... end str line says will decrease recast time of a long term recast dmg skill (over 2 min recast) by 50%... so you take 15 min and decrease it by 50%...what do you get????
 
NORMAL people would figure this out to 7.5 minutes... well SOE math =  10 min... i dunno how they got that but plz explain


 

I parse on par with our Assassins, and both are 2k+ assassins...

although a large part of that is because I have t8 ammo with Sarnakk warbow..

 

Is it fair that we have to rely on gear to parse as well as assassins, no... it isn't, but when we're geared up, we can. There is a LARGE difference in CA DPSing capability, but assassins can only improve so much with gear, while with better bows we exceed at leaps and bounds..

 

Now let this thread die please, it's been here WAY too long.

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Old 09-27-2006, 06:39 PM   #795
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never his thread cant die...
 
but maybe with the t8 ammo you summon from one raid bown and use the other uber auto attack dmg from the sarnak... but thats like the ONLY way..
 
when an assassin can do theirs with treasured its crap.. if 90% of assassins can do 2k dps and the rest do 1.5k   and 5% of rangers can do 2k dps and the rest under 1.5 its unbalanced... keep the sarnak the same just up the other bows a tad to be somewhat better. not just going from suck to uber you go suck decent uber atleast
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Old 09-28-2006, 02:05 AM   #796
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I just dont see t8 ammo with any ammo doing the same as mark on a single raid fight + what auto attack what we are already doing....I also dont see the 20-30% gap in dps due to cast times overlapped as well with t8 ammo..Unfortuantly theres no real /weaponstats for t7, t8 ammo.. Its not something I can plug in a formula, I wish we were given more info so that we could prove or disprove this entire thing.. I am sure that those who claim they parse at 1.8k once and a while do that once and a while.. But on the parsings ive seen, and the parsings that have been floating around.. I still dont see the ranger averaging anymore than 1.4k on a zonewide parse..Just FYI - I look at zonewide ALOT more than I look at individual fights.
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Old 09-28-2006, 04:41 AM   #797
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Last weekend I got bored in DT while clearing those stupid goo's before the drake.  So for three in a row I just hit my auto ranged attack for the entire fights.  DPS for the three went something like 990, 910, 920.  I had pretty much crap for group buffs outside of a fury tagging me with Vim and getting my Int up to 390.  Other then that just self buff haste and DT bracelet.

What can I say I'm bored at work and thought I'd share my stupid adventures in auto attack land.

 

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Old 09-28-2006, 08:38 PM   #798
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LoreLady wrote:
I just dont see t8 ammo with any ammo doing the same as mark on a single raid fight + what auto attack what we are already doing....

I also dont see the 20-30% gap in dps due to cast times overlapped as well with t8 ammo..

Unfortuantly theres no real /weaponstats for t7, t8 ammo.. Its not something I can plug in a formula, I wish we were given more info so that we could prove or disprove this entire thing.. I am sure that those who claim they parse at 1.8k once and a while do that once and a while.. But on the parsings ive seen, and the parsings that have been floating around.. I still dont see the ranger averaging anymore than 1.4k on a zonewide parse..

Just FYI - I look at zonewide ALOT more than I look at individual fights.




/sigh

 

I find myself disagreeing with almost everything you post.

Honestly, yes, our CAs need tagged up some. Assassins can do almost as much as we can with bow auto attack damage, and still maintain 20% increased CA DPS, which isn't entirely fair, however.. it's not part of an assassins normal play style, and most people are too afraid to change how they play for fear of decreasing their DPS (I've talked with a few assassins who think stepping out for bow shots every once and a while will lower their DPS.

The only real advantage is that most of our CAs are ranged, and by our class role, we will hit with more auto attacks....

 

Also, your comment about 1800-1900 once and a while is wrong.. Some Rangers can maintain that...

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Old 09-29-2006, 04:02 AM   #799
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And this is why I still maintain myself to saying this.. Is I have zonewide parsings of assassins at 1.8k dps, I dont have a single ranger above 1.4k dps in any of my parsings.. And I look at other guilds dps values as well (hence why I have 1.8k dps parsings on assassins).. Untill I get a zonewide parse and take a look at what kinda numbers that rangers putting out per ability etc, I am going to keep my thoughts the same..And BTW - in a 1 min fight, 1.8k means nothing, in a zonewide parse.. 1.8k means ALOT, parsings drop significantly if you put up zonewide parsings.. Doing 1.8k at 1/2 of the fights, and doing 1.2k on the other half averages to 1.5k.. So, even if what you are saying holds true.. It still doesnt hold true zonewide - and that is what I want to see..Now, before I continue.. Id like to say that I am excited about the changes posted (I put a link up on the ranger boards) - and possible changes in EoF class stuff.. On a slight negitive note, I just hope they dont make rangers a pure auto attack class.. That thought scares me, and all this talk about getting ahold of t8 ammo seems what its like.. Anyways, have fun rangers!!
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Old 09-29-2006, 05:40 AM   #800
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This thread needs to die.. but yeah, zonewide parses are the only ones that count.  I'd love to see some zone-wide parses of a ranger keeping up with an excellent assassin.
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Old 09-29-2006, 04:50 PM   #801
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Xney, if a ranger did post themselves up with an assassin, would you just say the assassin sucks? or could you take their word that it is a good assassin and prove yourself wrong? i'd bet you'd say the assassin sucks.. and it would have to be one that you deem "excellent".
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Old 09-29-2006, 05:31 PM   #802
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Asismii wrote:
Xney, if a ranger did post themselves up with an assassin, would you just say the assassin sucks? or could you take their word that it is a good assassin and prove yourself wrong? i'd bet you'd say the assassin sucks.. and it would have to be one that you deem "excellent".


You'd probably be wrong.  This would be sooooo easy to determine simply by looking at the parses and group setups.

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Old 09-29-2006, 09:29 PM   #803
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Asismii wrote:Xney, if a ranger did post themselves up with an assassin, would you just say the assassin sucks? or could you take their word that it is a good assassin and prove yourself wrong? i'd bet you'd say the assassin sucks.. and it would have to be one that you deem "excellent".

Im looking for a ranger that can keep inline with one of the upper assassins in the game.. There standards seem to be at 1.8k for many zones.
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Old 09-29-2006, 09:43 PM   #804
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Put the assassin and the ranger in the same group during a raid.
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Old 09-30-2006, 02:06 AM   #805
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If the raid is doing a lot of dps, then chances are the people in the raid are good.  If the ranger does 1.8 k dps and the assassin does 1.4k dps then yes I would wonder SMILEY  but if the ranger does 1.8kdps and the assassin does 2.0kdps then I think you'd have to say that was impressive.

You can't take DPS numbers in a vacuum.  And certainly not one fight.  Zone-wide really shows class balance better.

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Old 09-30-2006, 02:34 AM   #806
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Rahmn wrote:
Put the assassin and the ranger in the same group during a raid.


Just a hint that you may want to consider:  The last thing you ever want to see in a decent raid setup is a ranger and an assassin in the same group.
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Old 09-30-2006, 03:11 AM   #807
Mirdo

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I think he was putting them in the same group purely for comparison but you are right, it wouldn't actually be that fair a comparison if you are looking at maximum attainable DPS SMILEYMirdo.
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