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Old 06-20-2006, 11:56 AM   #61
Dannd

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Great info guys.  I want to shed some my number one experience since I've rolled a Ranger (Lvl 31 atm on a PvP server).

I can pretty much one shot those grey rats just outside of the Qeynos Griffon Tower in Antonica consistently, so I don't see the problem here.  :smileyindifferent:

I love being a Ranger and I'm learning a lot on these forums...just can't wait to contribute more.  I'm still trying to figure out how ANYONE comes up with a statement like:

We are around T1.5 to T1.7 dps or words that effect.  Kooosfrappa...kooosfrappa friend, it's only a game.

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Old 06-20-2006, 03:09 PM   #62
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Danndak wrote:

I love being a Ranger and I'm learning a lot on these forums...just can't wait to contribute more.  I'm still trying to figure out how ANYONE comes up with a statement like:

We are around T1.5 to T1.7 dps or words that effect.  Kooosfrappa...kooosfrappa friend, it's only a game.



Glad you are enjoying being around the place! :smileyhappy: I know the number crunching can seem a bit odd at times, but there have been moments when even some of those of us who had always poked fun at the parsers and statisticians downloaded parsing software. It's all about where we were told we were going to be in relation to other classes at the launch of the game (for many of us old timers) and where we are actually showing up - and then developers explaining how they didn't really mean what they said and that actually we had invented all that.
 
Hats off to those that stick with the number crunching: it all goes towards helping to shape our class and I admit to not having the time or patience to do it regularly (though I do keep an eye on our guild wizard who insists on showing how he is way ahead of us on every encounter and I still groan when the double-attacking zerker out damages me!).
 
But in the end, you're right: it's only a game, I still get a huge amount of fun out of playing the ranger class and I'll just roll with the changes and accommodate them as I always have. Besides, it's looks that count with the nymphs and dryads, not the size of your bow or even what you can do with it... Make sure you look good. :smileyvery-happy:
 
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:30 PM   #63
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Keredh wrote:


Danndak wrote:

I love being a Ranger and I'm learning a lot on these forums...just can't wait to contribute more.  I'm still trying to figure out how ANYONE comes up with a statement like:

We are around T1.5 to T1.7 dps or words that effect.  Kooosfrappa...kooosfrappa friend, it's only a game.



Glad you are enjoying being around the place! :smileyhappy: I know the number crunching can seem a bit odd at times, but there have been moments when even some of those of us who had always poked fun at the parsers and statisticians downloaded parsing software. It's all about where we were told we were going to be in relation to other classes at the launch of the game (for many of us old timers) and where we are actually showing up - and then developers explaining how they didn't really mean what they said and that actually we had invented all that.
 
Hats off to those that stick with the number crunching: it all goes towards helping to shape our class and I admit to not having the time or patience to do it regularly (though I do keep an eye on our guild wizard who insists on showing how he is way ahead of us on every encounter and I still groan when the double-attacking zerker out damages me!).
 
But in the end, you're right: it's only a game, I still get a huge amount of fun out of playing the ranger class and I'll just roll with the changes and accommodate them as I always have. Besides, it's looks that count with the nymphs and dryads, not the size of your bow or even what you can do with it... Make sure you look good. :smileyvery-happy:
 
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Make no mistake, I enjoy playing a ranger.  I played a ranger for years in EQ1 and I've played only a ranger in EQ2 since November 2004.  It's easy to say "It's only a game, forget the numbers and just enjoy your class".  But it isn't that simple.  If you primarily solo or single group with friends, that can work.  But if you are in a raid guild or want to be in a raid guild, simply enjoying playing your ranger isn't going to cause such a guild to find your membership/participation compelling.  Ultimately, I foresee a time where even pickup groups might start behaving the same way.

Look, in a raid guild membership is limited.  Moreover, in an actual raid, membership is even more limited.  This isn't EQ1, there are only 24 slots in a raid and every participant has to count.  To ensure this, quite often guild members are chosen to be able to contribute in multiple ways.  For example, a berzerker in the guild can contribute as either a tank on a raid or as dps.  If a guild is going to have a member who is one-dimensional at a raid, then that character had better be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] productive in that one specialty.

As rangers, we are one-dimensional.  In fact, I would argue that rangers are the most one-dimensional of all classes in the game.  We do one thing and one thing only....dps.  Even other "tier-1" dps classes can do a little more:  such as wizards/warlocks buffing stats, applying procs, or feeding power.  Even assassins, can do a little more than rangers:  applying hate and applying poisons.  We offer zero utility to a raid.  We only offer dps.  So we'd [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure better be good at it.  In fact, given that we have the least utility of any class, we should have the highest dps.  But we don't.

The other "tier-1" dps classes, who all have at least a little utility, all out-dps us.  In some cases by quite a lot.  Many of the "tier-2" dps classes, who all provide a great deal of utility (e.g., rogues) and/or raid flexibility (e.g., berzerkers) equal or exceeed our dps.

So given the above, why should a raid guild add a ranger?  And for you non-raiders, why should a pickup group add a ranger?  In both cases, they shouldn't.  They'd be crazy not to select for their limited slots classes that provide better dps and/or more utility/flexibility.  That's what this is all about.  That's why our mediocre dps is ultimately so problemmatic.

And unless it changes, all of you are ultimately going to feel the effects.

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Old 06-20-2006, 06:07 PM   #64
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Balerius wrote:

As rangers, we are one-dimensional.  In fact, I would argue that rangers are the most one-dimensional of all classes in the game.  We do one thing and one thing only....dps.  Even other "tier-1" dps classes can do a little more:  such as wizards/warlocks buffing stats, applying procs, or feeding power.  Even assassins, can do a little more than rangers:  applying hate and applying poisons.  We offer zero utility to a raid.  We only offer dps.  So we'd [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure better be good at it.  In fact, given that we have the least utility of any class, we should have the highest dps.  But we don't.

The other "tier-1" dps classes, who all have at least a little utility, all out-dps us.  In some cases by quite a lot.  Many of the "tier-2" dps classes, who all provide a great deal of utility (e.g., rogues) and/or raid flexibility (e.g., berzerkers) equal or exceeed our dps.

So given the above, why should a raid guild add a ranger?  And for you non-raiders, why should a pickup group add a ranger?  In both cases, they shouldn't.  They'd be crazy not to select for their limited slots classes that provide better dps and/or more utility/flexibility.  That's what this is all about.  That's why our mediocre dps is ultimately so problemmatic.

And unless it changes, all of you are ultimately going to feel the effects.



Make no mistake, I know all that. I've argued it myself in earlier posts as I hope you've seen. However, there is no indication that it is going to change. You are quite right that it could be problematic and has all sorts of potential invite problems (it clearly does for some rangers). I will also say I have never had problems getting a raid space or a group space as a DPS class - I am not in a raiding guild but have raided with server raid guilds and in alliance raids and group almost every evening. It may be our raids are not staffed by the uber elites that seem to regularly parse 1.2k upwards, but with about two or three times the application of other classes I can find myself in the top three or four of a four group raid parse on a consistent basis, usually only beaten by mages or another ranger. This is no comment on my abilities - I would be first to admit there are better rangers out there - and I can also accept that it could be a local (i.e. Lucan) thing.

Yep, I get irritated when shown parses that show me outdamaged by swashbucklers and bezerkers, both of whom can do far more for the group than I can in a non-combat way, but I just don't have the time to invest in the number crunching the way others do - and I meant a genuine hats off to those that do. I do worry though that all that effort is expended and I have yet to see any circumstances in respect of our complaints where it has made a significant difference. In fact, the sledgehammer approach that SOE has means that often all classes get walloped with the same bat in a way that has different effects on different classes (why shouldn't some classes have better stuns than others?).

I am past the point where I will let the figures stop me enjoying the game, though. I enjoy the company of my guild mates for grouping and raiding, I enjoy solo play, I am not regarded as a hindrance by group mates (except when getting lost). I get plenty of random invites to both groups and raids. Perhaps it is just the community dynamic of the Lucan D'Lere server? I don't know. Anyway, that is just how I play. I realise it is not enough for others, and I do understand that - and good luck in securing the necessary adjustments.

Ker

Message Edited by Keredh on 06-20-2006 07:10 AM

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Old 06-20-2006, 06:20 PM   #65
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Balerius wrote:

Keredh wrote:

Danndak wrote:

I love being a Ranger and I'm learning a lot on these forums...just can't wait to contribute more.  I'm still trying to figure out how ANYONE comes up with a statement like:

We are around T1.5 to T1.7 dps or words that effect.  Kooosfrappa...kooosfrappa friend, it's only a game.


Glad you are enjoying being around the place! :smileyhappy: I know the number crunching can seem a bit odd at times, but there have been moments when even some of those of us who had always poked fun at the parsers and statisticians downloaded parsing software. It's all about where we were told we were going to be in relation to other classes at the launch of the game (for many of us old timers) and where we are actually showing up - and then developers explaining how they didn't really mean what they said and that actually we had invented all that.
 
Hats off to those that stick with the number crunching: it all goes towards helping to shape our class and I admit to not having the time or patience to do it regularly (though I do keep an eye on our guild wizard who insists on showing how he is way ahead of us on every encounter and I still groan when the double-attacking zerker out damages me!).
 
But in the end, you're right: it's only a game, I still get a huge amount of fun out of playing the ranger class and I'll just roll with the changes and accommodate them as I always have. Besides, it's looks that count with the nymphs and dryads, not the size of your bow or even what you can do with it... Make sure you look good. :smileyvery-happy:
 
Ker

Make no mistake, I enjoy playing a ranger.  I played a ranger for years in EQ1 and I've played only a ranger in EQ2 since November 2004.  It's easy to say "It's only a game, forget the numbers and just enjoy your class".  But it isn't that simple.  If you primarily solo or single group with friends, that can work.  But if you are in a raid guild or want to be in a raid guild, simply enjoying playing your ranger isn't going to cause such a guild to find your membership/participation compelling.  Ultimately, I foresee a time where even pickup groups might start behaving the same way.

Look, in a raid guild membership is limited.  Moreover, in an actual raid, membership is even more limited.  This isn't EQ1, there are only 24 slots in a raid and every participant has to count.  To ensure this, quite often guild members are chosen to be able to contribute in multiple ways.  For example, a berzerker in the guild can contribute as either a tank on a raid or as dps.  If a guild is going to have a member who is one-dimensional at a raid, then that character had better be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] productive in that one specialty.

As rangers, we are one-dimensional.  In fact, I would argue that rangers are the most one-dimensional of all classes in the game.  We do one thing and one thing only....dps.  Even other "tier-1" dps classes can do a little more:  such as wizards/warlocks buffing stats, applying procs, or feeding power.  Even assassins, can do a little more than rangers:  applying hate and applying poisons.  We offer zero utility to a raid.  We only offer dps.  So we'd [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure better be good at it.  In fact, given that we have the least utility of any class, we should have the highest dps.  But we don't.

The other "tier-1" dps classes, who all have at least a little utility, all out-dps us.  In some cases by quite a lot.  Many of the "tier-2" dps classes, who all provide a great deal of utility (e.g., rogues) and/or raid flexibility (e.g., berzerkers) equal or exceeed our dps.

So given the above, why should a raid guild add a ranger?  And for you non-raiders, why should a pickup group add a ranger?  In both cases, they shouldn't.  They'd be crazy not to select for their limited slots classes that provide better dps and/or more utility/flexibility.  That's what this is all about.  That's why our mediocre dps is ultimately so problemmatic.

And unless it changes, all of you are ultimately going to feel the effects.


Now your just taking this over the top. To say that people are nolonger going to accept you to groups is just crazy talk. Take a step back and be objective and look where things actually are before you start that kind of thing.I said on a earlier post, that our main two problems are our recast timers for our CA's - that is what is limiting our damage on raids. And, for ranged auto attack to work at the spot your in, regardless of what CA you decide to use (assuming your outside of melee range). If I were sony, I would change these two things before determining to change the AA line.I also want everyone to remember, when the expansion comes out. There are going to be new AA lines and a diety system, if we change the AA line now. We are changing the new AA's and the diety system down the road.
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Old 06-20-2006, 08:05 PM   #66
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LoreLady wrote:


Now your just taking this over the top. To say that people are nolonger going to accept you to groups is just crazy talk. Take a step back and be objective and look where things actually are before you start that kind of thing.


Too late.  At least once or twice I week I will respond to a request "group looking for DPS for ____" in 60-70 chat only to be told "oh sorry, we just filled that last slot.  Only to see the same "group looking for DPS for ____" five minutes later.  Or be told "oh, but we're lookign for DPS"

It may of may not be true that we are T1 DPS, but the perception has definitely spread that rangers are [Removed for Content] and don't provide anything special to groups or raids.  :smileysad:

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Old 06-20-2006, 08:40 PM   #67
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This is where things like being a nice guy, and having fun with your friends actually help a little bit. I don't get invited to groups b/c of my uber DPS, I get invited b/c gosh darn it, ppl like me. Plus, I'm handsome. And good thing too, otherwise I'd apparently be warming my hands over a trash fire in the back alleys of South Qeynos!

But I'll be the first to admit that I don't roll with the elites. I don't try to, b/c I'm not interested in playing the game at that level. I admire those supremely dedicated players, but I'm not one of them. I do sympathize with those of you who are trying to roll with the elite crowd in the top raid guilds, but won't be accepted among the upper echelon b/c your jersey says "Ranger" on the front. It does suck to run up against an artificial ceiling whereby game mechanics simply don't allow us to produce the numbers that other DPS classes can.

Balerius, Xney, Prandtl all have valid points. Some of which we don't want to hear, b/c it's a gloomy reality to have to accept, but unfortunately wanting to have fun doesn't mean the game mechanics favor us in raid situations. I'd say most of us ARE still having fun, but that doesn't mean everyone is (or should, or can) and it doesn't mean that all's well in the ranger class. Some of us just aren't as affected by the mechanics as others.

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Old 06-20-2006, 10:17 PM   #68
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I find it hard to believe we'd not be welcome in groups, as we do very decent group DPS.  There was a period right after LU20 where we were pretty pathetic, but that was as much because we needed some time to relearn it.  Hopefully, that time has long past but there are certain people out there I'm sure that still have a prejudiced view which shouldn't apply.  For your average raid, I'm sure we would be welcome as well.   In both those situations, the skills and gear people bring to the table far outweigh any other factor on how effective you are. 
 
The problem is on the top end, where you have maxed out your ranger, and you just can't go that extra step - and it's a significant step, not a teeny one, from the perspective of a raid leader with very good players.   We have to keep posting about that situation to get attention.  It's unfortunately the only way.  If we say nothing, nothing will change.  I still play a ranger because I like it, but I'll point out what I think are issues in a constructive manner.  It's also important that others do so as well.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:14 PM   #69
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Xney, it's sad but true.  Rangers do phenominal damage in groups, but to many players we are still a broken class post LU20.  Their walls of perception conceal the door of reality, and that reality is that we may have problems solo and on high level raids, but in exp and quest groups we bring alot to the table.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:29 PM   #70
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And to add to that, it is us, the Ranger community, that keeps that perception alive.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:52 PM   #71
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Prandtl wrote:
Xney, it's sad but true.  Rangers do phenominal damage in groups, but to many players we are still a broken class post LU20.  Their walls of perception conceal the door of reality, and that reality is that we may have problems solo and on high level raids, but in exp and quest groups we bring alot to the table.

Not trying to start a fight or be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], but don't you think there's a problem when 2/3 of the playstyles for our class have major issues?  When we're only good in a six person group that leaves out alot of potential in other areas of the game.  I just so happen prefer soloing and raiding.  I don't find it fun to be intercepted and stunned when I'm trying to get range on a solo mob (pre-KOS mobs).  If I found that fun I can always queue up in a Battleground in WoW.  Then when I painstakingly get to the 'endgame' I'm stuck with an 'average' raiding guild not cause of my ability or gear but because of my class.  That's the vision some Rangers are being bombarded with.  Some Rangers want more then grouping or 'average raids' people strive to be the best at things.  If the games fun for you, I am extremely glad SMILEY  that's the point of a game.  However it isn't fun for others and that point needs to be addressed as it's a game for them too. 

 

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Old 06-21-2006, 12:27 AM   #72
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No fight, Falcon.  Read my comments above and you you will find that you and I are in violent agreement!
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Old 06-21-2006, 01:01 AM   #73
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They didn't want you in their group because they were looking for DPS? Just as well, they would have wiped with that Pally healing and wizard tanking...I mean really. OK we aren't the highest. Whens the last time you got unwanted agro? I never have that prblem, even when i'm doing my top damage. Mr Wizard standing next to me will be dead on the floor.We also don't need full groups. I can trio with a tank/healer and kill dang near anything, including some choice x2 mobs (not many, but there are a couple)I'm glad we're losing out 'l33t' status. We are no longer the flavor of the month (except on PVP - which will still get us nerfed more /sigh).I love my Ranger and I have fun playing him.
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Old 06-21-2006, 01:45 AM   #74
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It's simpy fact that you can do as much damage as we do more easily with other classes.  The same amount of effort, gear, and skills with a ranger returns more benefits with a berzerker, necromancer, or swashbuckler, either in terms of damage or other capabilities.  That matters to some people and not to many, or maybe even most.  The original question was related to how much rangers do in damage compared to other classes - the "tiers" (although those don't exist anymore).  When I see a question like that, I will respond with the facts as I see them.

How unfair would it be to tell somebody asking the question about ranger DPS, yes you are T1, only to find that months down the road when they're level 70 and applying to a raiding guild that they don't think so?  Whoops.

If the question had been, are rangers fun to play, or are rangers a good class, I could have said yes to both.  I find it odd that other classes have all the whiners and such, but rangers as a whole tend to be kind of optimistic.  It's just weird SMILEY   I realize I sometimes come off as critical but I am more self-critical than anything and my posts reflect that time spent trying to get just a notch higher.  I'm not as crazy as some who will spend hours researching whether this CA combination does .5% more *grin*

I believe SOE will eventually come around to fixing us, so I'm hoping useful posts will make than sooner than later.  If they browse our forums and find we're all happy with how it is, then why would they change anything?

p.s. I get aggro all the time in groups if I'm not careful.  Usually I play in a more aggro-friendly style, though.

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Old 06-21-2006, 03:35 AM   #75
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I'm wondering if the groups not wanting us is a server thing. I've been out harvesting a lot recently and I've gotten many tells and blind invites for groups in a variety of places. When I have grouped, I haven't been turned down.  We're not the DPS we were before, but it's untrue to say we can't get a group. I have plenty of folks who want me.
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:46 AM   #76
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I've never had a problem getting into group in a DPS slot, except for right around LU20.
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Old 06-21-2006, 05:49 AM   #77
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LoreLady wrote:


Balerius wrote:
Make no mistake, I enjoy playing a ranger.  I played a ranger for years in EQ1 and I've played only a ranger in EQ2 since November 2004.  It's easy to say "It's only a game, forget the numbers and just enjoy your class".  But it isn't that simple.  If you primarily solo or single group with friends, that can work.  But if you are in a raid guild or want to be in a raid guild, simply enjoying playing your ranger isn't going to cause such a guild to find your membership/participation compelling.  Ultimately, I foresee a time where even pickup groups might start behaving the same way.

Look, in a raid guild membership is limited.  Moreover, in an actual raid, membership is even more limited.  This isn't EQ1, there are only 24 slots in a raid and every participant has to count.  To ensure this, quite often guild members are chosen to be able to contribute in multiple ways.  For example, a berzerker in the guild can contribute as either a tank on a raid or as dps.  If a guild is going to have a member who is one-dimensional at a raid, then that character had better be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] productive in that one specialty.

As rangers, we are one-dimensional.  In fact, I would argue that rangers are the most one-dimensional of all classes in the game.  We do one thing and one thing only....dps.  Even other "tier-1" dps classes can do a little more:  such as wizards/warlocks buffing stats, applying procs, or feeding power.  Even assassins, can do a little more than rangers:  applying hate and applying poisons.  We offer zero utility to a raid.  We only offer dps.  So we'd [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure better be good at it.  In fact, given that we have the least utility of any class, we should have the highest dps.  But we don't.

The other "tier-1" dps classes, who all have at least a little utility, all out-dps us.  In some cases by quite a lot.  Many of the "tier-2" dps classes, who all provide a great deal of utility (e.g., rogues) and/or raid flexibility (e.g., berzerkers) equal or exceeed our dps.

So given the above, why should a raid guild add a ranger?  And for you non-raiders, why should a pickup group add a ranger?  In both cases, they shouldn't.  They'd be crazy not to select for their limited slots classes that provide better dps and/or more utility/flexibility.  That's what this is all about.  That's why our mediocre dps is ultimately so problemmatic.

And unless it changes, all of you are ultimately going to feel the effects.



Now your just taking this over the top. To say that people are nolonger going to accept you to groups is just crazy talk. Take a step back and be objective and look where things actually are before you start that kind of thing.

I said on a earlier post, that our main two problems are our recast timers for our CA's - that is what is limiting our damage on raids. And, for ranged auto attack to work at the spot your in, regardless of what CA you decide to use (assuming your outside of melee range). If I were sony, I would change these two things before determining to change the AA line.

I also want everyone to remember, when the expansion comes out. There are going to be new AA lines and a diety system, if we change the AA line now. We are changing the new AA's and the diety system down the road.


If you read my entire post and look at the context of the statement you highlighted, you will note that I was referring to the state of rangers in high end raid guilds now, but I was predicting what might happen to rangers in pickup groups in the future.  So I don't think I'm being "over the top" at all.  It's what I foresee as the future for rangers in non-raid environments.  That future is the present for rangers in high end guilds now even if it isn't universally present for rangers looking for pickup groups here and now. 

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Old 06-21-2006, 01:29 PM   #78
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As a matter of fact, as a raiding ranger, I don't think we are T1 DPS anymore. I am parsing, I tried moving around to get the best parsing I can (close to magic DPS, close to melee DPS, etc...).Furthermore, we need poisons all the time to have decent numbers.We are outdamaged by Warlocks, Wizards, Assassins, Swashs and Brigands most of the time (ie. when Rain of Arrows or Sniper Shot is under recovery), since LU#24 we are close to Necros/Summoners.Swashs, Brigands and Assassins are using auto-attack in a best way we are and can use Mental Breach most of the time without losing much DPS (our main swash is parsing 1400-1200 dps with Mental Breach, Brigand is around 1000, Wiz are 1200-1000, Warlock with trash groups is flying around 1600, Necro with mage pet is around 1200-1000 DPS, the poor ranger sometime hits 1400 with good hits on RoA, but basicly staggers around 800-900.)We don't have bruisers or monks in our raids, but since I can be outdamaged by our MT or MA if I lack poison, I guess we are low T2 DPS. If I was raid leader with 25-26 people wanting to join a raid, I wouldn't pick a ranger if I have other DPS available:- Swash, Assassin: T1 DPS + aggro transfer (+ Apply poison), some mobs require hate increasers- Brigand: T1 DPS + debuff + interrupts- Warlock: T1 DPS = best trash cleaners (AoE)- Wizard: T1 DPS + mana transfer- Mages: T1-T2 DPS + rez/coh + mana rods/heartsPrior to LU#24, I could pull with Surveillance, I used to take a bad hit or two running back to MT, now it's really difficult to get the mob back, MT has to move and prefers to pull himself. And the illus can do it better and safer with a mez.For grouping, it's not that hard for now, since the 'ubber-dps-ranger' legend is still around. But I am afraid we will be back to EQ1 junk ranger legend in a close future. For soloing, I wonder why Warlocks, Wizards, Swash, Brigands, Illus and Coercers can take down named heroic and we can't. It must be a clue... On solo mobs usually it's easy, with time and space :p
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Old 06-21-2006, 05:37 PM   #79
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Prandtl wrote:
No fight, Falcon.  Read my comments above and you you will find that you and I are in violent agreement!


hehe,  I think the thing lost in tranlation was tone...sometimes the boards don't carry that over too well SMILEY

 

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Old 06-21-2006, 07:43 PM   #80
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Wades wrote:
As a matter of fact, as a raiding ranger, I don't think we are T1 DPS anymore. I am parsing, I tried moving around to get the best parsing I can (close to magic DPS, close to melee DPS, etc...).

Furthermore, we need poisons all the time to have decent numbers.

We are outdamaged by Warlocks, Wizards, Assassins, Swashs and Brigands most of the time (ie. when Rain of Arrows or Sniper Shot is under recovery), since LU#24 we are close to Necros/Summoners.

Swashs, Brigands and Assassins are using auto-attack in a best way we are and can use Mental Breach most of the time without losing much DPS (our main swash is parsing 1400-1200 dps with Mental Breach, Brigand is around 1000, Wiz are 1200-1000, Warlock with trash groups is flying around 1600, Necro with mage pet is around 1200-1000 DPS, the poor ranger sometime hits 1400 with good hits on RoA, but basicly staggers around 800-900.)

We don't have bruisers or monks in our raids, but since I can be outdamaged by our MT or MA if I lack poison, I guess we are low T2 DPS.

If I was raid leader with 25-26 people wanting to join a raid, I wouldn't pick a ranger if I have other DPS available:
- Swash, Assassin: T1 DPS + aggro transfer (+ Apply poison), some mobs require hate increasers
- Brigand: T1 DPS + debuff + interrupts
- Warlock: T1 DPS = best trash cleaners (AoE)
- Wizard: T1 DPS + mana transfer
- Mages: T1-T2 DPS + rez/coh + mana rods/hearts

Prior to LU#24, I could pull with Surveillance, I used to take a bad hit or two running back to MT, now it's really difficult to get the mob back, MT has to move and prefers to pull himself. And the illus can do it better and safer with a mez.

For grouping, it's not that hard for now, since the 'ubber-dps-ranger' legend is still around. But I am afraid we will be back to EQ1 junk ranger legend in a close future.

For soloing, I wonder why Warlocks, Wizards, Swash, Brigands, Illus and Coercers can take down named heroic and we can't. It must be a clue... On solo mobs usually it's easy, with time and space :p





I just can't agree with your numbers here. When I really really really slack off I hit 800-900 DPS. I'd put the ranger with big hits down in the range you placed the Wizzies, 1200-1000. Though I would put Wizzies higher than that. But then maybe you're not in the same setups for grp buffs as I am. I make sure I get a Zerker and a Brusier. If we had a Coercer active I'd beg for them to be in my group too.

In general though I think we still suffer from the fact that the DPS of 2 nice DW weapons is still > than the DPS of our Bow.

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Old 06-21-2006, 08:05 PM   #81
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TaleraRis wrote:
I'm wondering if the groups not wanting us is a server thing. I've been out harvesting a lot recently and I've gotten many tells and blind invites for groups in a variety of places. When I have grouped, I haven't been turned down.  We're not the DPS we were before, but it's untrue to say we can't get a group. I have plenty of folks who want me.



The server thing could be right.  Each server has its own "personality" and if a class has a [Removed for Content] reputation it spreads across the server community alot more then across the entire game.  The fact is, I don't get near the tells and invites that I used to back in the day
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:24 PM   #82
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I don't know about group inclusion (I usually group with friends and guildies, rarely PuGs, and I haven't been playing Kae as much lately so I dunno about random invites and tells), but I've been looking over all the guild recruitment posts and class lists on my server, and for quite a while now, no guild has been looking for ANY rangers. None.
 
These aren't all hardcore raid guilds (some are, but not all), but they are looking for specific classes, so they're probably raiding even if it's not the only thing they do. Not once in the last few months have I seen "ranger" in the list of desireables, and that may imply that ppl are becoming aware that we bring sub-par DPS and very little utility. 
 
Or, it just might mean that rangers are still one of the top five most popular classes across all servers, and they already have all the rangers they need.
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Old 06-21-2006, 11:41 PM   #83
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Prandtl wrote:

The server thing could be right.  Each server has its own "personality" and if a class has a [Removed for Content] reputation it spreads across the server community alot more then across the entire game.  The fact is, I don't get near the tells and invites that I used to back in the day

It has to be something in that realm. I know it's not server population, because I play on one of the larger servers out there. And I don't think it's name recognition so much because I tend to solo and group rarely. It may have to do with availability. I don't know how popular ranger is on Najena or how many there are in my level range. That's another factor, level range. I'm lower than a lot of you, so there may be less DPS in general in my tier.
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:10 AM   #84
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Many guilds already have high level rangers back from the old days.
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:19 AM   #85
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Rangers are capable of high dps...it just requires a much greater effort I'll admit though, the only reason i came over to butcherblock from nektulos was that i was shocked to see a ranger opening in a guild that actually kills [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and is good, and took advantage of the moment I saw it :smileyvery-happy: And because of it I'm having a better time then ever Main reason I can think of a guild ever needing or wanting a ranger would be for miracle arrow line of CAs while its not necisarry, it can sure make pulling certian mobs much easier
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:27 AM   #86
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np coah

alza quit btw SMILEY.

They do kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]

 

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Old 06-22-2006, 10:06 AM   #87
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Another one-shotted Antonica rat down the drain! 

Just trying to lighten up the posts here.

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Old 06-22-2006, 04:40 PM   #88
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Danndak wrote:

Another one-shotted Antonica rat down the drain! 

Just trying to lighten up the posts here.


No WAY!!!!You got PICS to back that up????SMILEY
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Old 06-23-2006, 02:19 PM   #89
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yes i should apologize to xney.  I wasn't meaning to be a fuktard.  I'm just getting tired of people constantly complaining about our class.
 
 Yes we have problems. Yes they need to address them and they aren't (atleast in a timely enough manner that all of us would agree, no??)
 
 
'jeeperster, I didn't claim that i was great, please don't put words in my mouth. My sig is a reminder.. something the devs are choosing to ignore it appeers. That was their claims btw..
 
 
Yes, Bal 848 isn't that good. Some wouldn't even call it desent.  However, i can, do, and have done 1k-1.5k on fights. even hit 1900 once. but that was situational and luck with procs, crits, group setup, and a pretty short fight.  Noone is going to be able to maintain that for several mins(meaning alot more then just 2-3), no class can. The longer the fights the lower the numbers, period.
 
Are we fixed? nope.  Are we completly broken? heck no. Yes the devs choose not to notice(it seems), maybe not even bother to read this forum any longer(could you blame them from the last 9months or so?). 
 
btw please feel free to post a full raid parse also.  I think you'll find you wont score as high as you might think, and others wont either.. :smileyhappy:  but they are good indication of what people are doing overall, not just 1 encounter.
 
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:38 PM   #90
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Honestly everyone, this is one subject that I hate putting my opinion in. For I have been in so many situations where I have seen rangers not even make the parse, and afew situations where I am in awe.Forinstance, last night our guild decided to help the public out with MoA. There werent many of us there, so  most of it was a pickup raid. There were 3 rangers there then myself. And I would not want to see these rangers near my guild, they werent even showing up on my parse. I was ontop, and staying that way for a good 70% of the fights. One flip side I have seen officers in some other guilds come into our raid to see how things are done and whats what.. And that rangers have put out 1.4k dps and held it there, one was using the bow of the flapping wing, the other an gizzelfazzle (spelling?) bow.I have had long discussions with that ranger, and checked over what hes using. And have come to one conclusion - gear. I am using a scalesplitter bow, with about 60% masters 30% adept 3's. That ranger is a rich mofo with mroe like 80% masters.Now, before we give the class arguement out in this case. I try a veriety of combinations and techniques and parse them, then look at how my dps is overall. And go from there.Also, I want to add that the ranger who is making these claims does have some valid points. However, realize he is using a gizzlefazzle bow not a fabled bow.  However, he has said he has had applicants to dissolusion and watched there dps. When LU 13 came out, sony made pred auto attack do more damage than any other class.When LU 21 came out, they boosted ranged attack by 33% making ranged auto attack a viable alternitive. I also want to point out, that I have seen people do as much or more auto attack than CA's.  Look at the parsings of auto attack and what the rouges are doing, and what you are doing before you go nuts. The unfortunate thing is, I do not know a fully geared rouge/pred in my guild to compare to so I dont have data to backup what I am saying.I also want people to remember, that even though t2 dps may be close to t1 dps at times. This does not mean that it will be this way forever, there is going to be a new expansion comming out with a diety system and new AA's (second part likely but hasent been said). So, the gap between t1 and t2 dps will likely be much greater, who knows what we may get. Procs, abilities, double attack, tripple attack, 50% less recast who knows. Now, I seriously want people to think of the SPECIFIC problems before you go commenting on DPS. I am very tierd of people saying that our CA's dont do much damage, or the t6 is better then t7 etc. Time and time I have said that our main problems is gaps in our auto attack when we use melee CA's in a ranged auto attack distance. And possibly our recasts. No where in all my posts have I actually said that our "damage" needs improving. One last thing, if you are noticing that your assassin/sk/necro are doing more damage than you and your getting annoyed about it. Maybe its time you changed your CA's.  I switched over to the str/agil line from agil/int line and im never looking back. The extra damage and recasts from snipers shot and rain of arrows far outdoes any crit to poisons. And, those classes will nolonger get a boost off of your debuff to poison while you are not contributing much to yourself.  Also, has anyone read the description on the proc debuff? - its on every melee attack.One last thing, could someone please test out the multi hit auto attack AA.. If it actually works on our bow or not, if it doesnt.. thats one of the things we need to hugely complain about rather than just generalizing about our dps.
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