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Old 02-16-2006, 02:28 AM   #1
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Seems the good days for us Rangers are gone SMILEYhttp://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47956#M47956

We'll continue to work with procs until we're comfortable with how they function. To those crying doom and gloom for the Ranger class: Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be.If you want further clarification on the proc changes we've been making, especially the first one, read on.As you know, there are many weapons in game that proc extra damage when they land an attack in combat (for example, imbued crafted weapons). In order to ensure that no style of weapon was more likely to proc than any other, we base a weapon's chance to proc on its delay. In other words, a slower weapon has a higher chance to proc because it lands fewer attacks; a faster weapon has a lower chance to proc on each hit because it lands its attacks more often. This keeps dual-wield, one-handed, and two-handed weapons on par with each other in their chance to proc.Some buffs also provide a chance to proc extra damage on a successful attack. Because we even out the proc chance based on delay, such buffs work equally well regardless of weapon type.These buffs also have a chance to proc via combat arts. However, there is a bug on the live servers in that the proc chance for combat arts was also being calculated based on the delay of whatever weapon was equipped. Some players have been using this to their advantage by deliberately equipping slow weapons in order to give their fast-casting combat arts a better chance to proc.As of Live Update #20, combat arts will base their chance to trigger a proc on the casting time of the art itself. Weapon delay will no longer affect any combat art's chance to trigger a proc.Certain classes will feel the effects of this change more than others. Scouts (especially rangers) were more likely to benefit from this bug than other melee classes, which contributed to scout damage being higher overall than it should have been--especially in relation to mages.While no class likes to see a reduction in the damage it does, the alternative would be to not only increase the damage output of other classes to compensate, but also to proportionately increase the health pools of NPCs to account for this rise in player damage. The second option would involve a lot more changes and would be prone to introducing other imbalances into the game.While not doing anything about this bug would be preferable to some, we cannot ignore the progressively more significant effect it is having as the game evolves. Fixing this issue will help bring many of the classes back into their intended range of damage output as we discussed around the time of LU13 and the combat revamp.Keep in mind that if you play a melee class but don't rely on a slow weapon to generate extra procs, this fix should have little impact on your style of play.Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder
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Old 02-16-2006, 02:35 AM   #2
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yep now not only do we get to pay for our dps, but we get to be lower at it as well.   Fortunately i know alot of groups that prioritize having someone to disarm traps and someone with pathfinding.
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Old 02-16-2006, 02:48 AM   #3
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Edit: post was too long and too happy go lucky.Only point to make is that we need to fight for what this class should be, at least in terms of playability.

Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on 02-15-200604:40 PM

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Old 02-16-2006, 05:20 AM   #4
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THIS WOULD OF BEEN A NICE THING TO DO 6 MONTHS AGO.. The punishment to Rangers doesn't fit the crime--->   a.k.a SOE   So who is supposed to be the highest DPS in the game??? If there is one why is it such a problem that rangers are it.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:21 AM   #5
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I thought there was a utility - > dps spectrum in the scout class, with the bards being more utility based, rouges being more middle line with a bit of tanking/taunting, and predators being all out dps?
 
So shouldn't Rangers/Assasins be equal in DPS, slightly better than rouges/bards.
 
The Mage archetype is a DPS archetype as well with it supposed to be utility - dps, Enchanter, Summoner, Wizard/Warlock.
 
So Wizard's/Warlocks should be equal in dps to Ranger's/Assasins.
 
 
I'm all fine with fixing a bug, but to say that Ranger's/Assasins/Wizards/Warlocks are not the most DPS class in game is just wrong.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:26 AM   #6
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wizards/warlocks = dont have to pay every god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bit of cash they have for poisons and arrows, sit and click spells FTWwizard/warlocks = group buffs that add to groups overall dpsranger = pathfinding FTWranger = gimped
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:50 AM   #7
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WOW, SONY wins the award for having the longest lasting EQ2 bug of all time. The so called "proc" bug. Congradulations you idiots. It took 20 live updates to figure this one out. And remember, only haveing masturbation as your only means of excitement still makes you a virgin :0)   (next to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing around with rangers for fun of course) I like the part where we aren't supposed to be # 1 DPS and mages are, seeing as we have all those great utility spells they gave us.
 
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Old 02-16-2006, 03:00 PM   #8
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So our arts proc off the casting time of the CA, as well as '- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack'?Hmm... this means we'll only get one proc in the entire duration of Stream of Arrows?Anyone able to put some first hand clarification on these changes please?Well.. at least there's an upside to it. With Rangers no longer being Flavor of the Month, less will get rolled, esp on the PvP server, and the attention will fall on some other class to get nerfed... Great upside.Ah wells, chin up til we find out how the in-game effect of this is. Let it all play out..SoE have a "Vision" afterall, not much we can do about it now :smileytongue:
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Old 02-16-2006, 03:23 PM   #9
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I play a Pally incidentally so never go with the Fotm but,
 
A Ranger should NEVER out damage a Wizard you wear medium armor and have a tonne of Utility Wizards wear dressing gowns and have sub par utility, yet get to suffer the embarrasment of being out damaged by the rangers in their group... I love Wizards from a roleplay perspective but could never bring myself to play one due to their insufficient DPS tier considering their weakness...they are glass cannons they caant land a hit as high as a medium armoured scout.
 
Thats why FoTm or in this case flavour of the year's are always a bad choice your gonna feel the pain sooner or later.
 
If Rangers are being dps reduced to make Wizards feel better...well Im sure Wizard boards will be happy and after a year and a half of being the DPS under dog can finally retake their throne at the top of the DPS pile.
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Old 02-16-2006, 03:55 PM   #10
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Tal'shiar wrote:
I play a Pally incidentally so never go with the Fotm but,
 
A Ranger should NEVER out damage a Wizard you wear medium armor and have a tonne of Utility Wizards wear dressing gowns and have sub par utility, yet get to suffer the embarrasment of being out damaged by the rangers in their group... I love Wizards from a roleplay perspective but could never bring myself to play one due to their insufficient DPS tier considering their weakness...they are glass cannons they caant land a hit as high as a medium armoured scout.
 
Thats why FoTm or in this case flavour of the year's are always a bad choice your gonna feel the pain sooner or later.
 
If Rangers are being dps reduced to make Wizards feel better...well Im sure Wizard boards will be happy and after a year and a half of being the DPS under dog can finally retake their throne at the top of the DPS pile.


 

Obviously you have never played a ranger. What utility? Disarm traps? Invis self? Track? Who the hell uses any of that as a basis for a "utility" class. Rangers were spose to be pure dps. So why is it an issue if we are? We are spose to be as good if not better than wizzys. AS for armor....dont make me laugh if you dont control your aggro my chain armor gets waxed what . 5 secs longer than cloth? The poisions we use cost a ton i easily spend over a plat on them for a good xp session. I use t6 legendary cause i like to be dps. You dont see wizzys spending a ton on reagent for their big nukes.....its give and take. And what SoE is doing is all take. I like when i watch a group mob go green orange dead. It makes me feel usefull. I played a ranger through the eq1 nerf that basically rendered the class a joke or just a ranged specialist at raids.  Please atleast know what you are talking about before you go spouting off about  DPS.

 

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Old 02-16-2006, 04:01 PM   #11
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Tal'shiar wrote:
I play a Pally incidentally so never go with the Fotm but,
 
A Ranger should NEVER out damage a Wizard you wear medium armor and have a tonne of Utility
 
erm yeah our pathfinding rocks for a group, medium armour does diddly when a raid mob hits you for 10K
 
Wizards wear dressing gowns and have sub par utility
 
is it our fault they wear robes? buffing a groups strength, int and their other buffs is sub par utility??
 
yet get to suffer the embarrasment of being out damaged by the rangers in their group...
 
kinda depends what the mob is and what con it is, a lot of orange con mobs laugh at rangers due to us not being able to hit them, casters have no issues
 
I love Wizards from a roleplay perspective but could never bring myself to play one due to their insufficient DPS tier considering their weakness...they are glass cannons they caant land a hit as high as a medium armoured scout.
 
so when the mob dies all of a sudden cos a wizzie has big nuked it thats not a big hit?? oh and on a very short CA timer too
 
Thats why FoTm or in this case flavour of the year's are always a bad choice your gonna feel the pain sooner or later.
 
If Rangers are being dps reduced to make Wizards feel better...well Im sure Wizard boards will be happy and after a year and a half of being the DPS under dog can finally retake their throne at the top of the DPS pile.
 
yeah so when that solo wizard nukes that named for the upteenth time and we have trouble sololing any kind of heroic due to not being about to kite or use our SOA??
 
Yeah wizards DPS lacks in a raid but it can blast us away in group play. Im sorry but this is why people like you [Removed for Content] me off, certain classes feel they should be number 1 at EVERYTHING. Hell im surprised they havent asked to be able to heal as well
 
So what our procs have been taken away etc, poison changed, our DPS lowered... I will still be here at 70 playing my ranger because im a player, I love the class and dont give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] what another class is doing...I GET ON WITH IT

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Old 02-16-2006, 04:50 PM   #12
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Rangers should be the class with the highest DPS in the game. They are of almost no use for groups or raids if their dps is reduced to or below that of mages. Because in that case a group or raidleader will prefer taking mages which bring all their buffs with them into their group AND doing the same or more DPS !!!
 
Rangers do not have group buffs and tracking is not needed in groups or raids in 99,99%. So reducing our DPS will definitely make our class unnecessary for most things. I´m playing my ranger since one year now and I would play it for some more years but I will definitely quit if they significantly reduce rangers DPS. Period.
 
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:15 PM   #13
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There are some aspects I'd like to be clarified:1) SOE declares this to be a BUG (likely to make Rangers think: "Oh well, then of course it must be changed" ). So why did it take 18 months to figure out? It is not a Bug. SOE intentionally built this into the game; but now found out that it made Rangers stronger than expected. It *might* be an imbalance, but not a bug.2) Why shouldn't Rangers be top DPS? Why should mages be? Rangers have little to offer to a group except damage (escape can be cast by mages, too. Tracking is nice sometimes, but not very useful. Heroic Opportunities? Nobody uses them. Disarming Traps? Important in D&D, but not needed in EQ2). Mages have some really useful group buffs. In D&D - which surely is the most important reference in RPGs due to its long history - mages are mere utility than DD, so why make them main DD in EQ2?Greetings,tom1301

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Old 02-16-2006, 09:49 PM   #14
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Exactly right,  why if proc rate is a bug would it take this long to fix.  IF it was a bug it would of been fixed along time ago.  People don't level there characters to level 60 to log in one day and find they are less powerfull than they were at 30.  Congradulations you hit 60 and you debuffed yourself to a level 30.. With this point instead of all the casters cheering they should realize that all it takes is allot of whining by the right people and there class could be next.  I dont suggest that anyone should be nerfed I think they should concentrate on game content like armor that doesnt look like everyone elses.  Instead sony wastes valuble dev time to redisign level 1-20 armar.  How long do we actually use these level of armor.  most the time no longer than a week.  I think they need to leave game mechanics alone and concentrate on actuall things that make people feel like individuals in the game, isnt that what this game is all about.   I feel like soon we all will do the exact amount of damage all have pets evac tracking and rez.  Wont it be fun all of us running around in the exact same armor with all the same skills??? Rangers at this point are a unique class as all classes should be.   Leave them alone and concentrate on separating each class not bringing us all to the same plain!!!!!MHO
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:52 AM   #15
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They can do all this but can't even spell the word Luxury for the apartments in QH! I love zoning into Teaerdar's Luxery Apartment maybe that's why rangers have the highest dps? :smileyvery-happy:
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:59 AM   #16
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Teaerdal wrote:
They can do all this but can't even spell the word Luxury for the apartments in QH! I love zoning into Teaerdar's Luxery Apartment maybe that's why rangers have the highest dps? :smileyvery-happy:

My Room alone does 4K DPS Woot!

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Old 02-17-2006, 01:19 AM   #17
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Forget the whole class title system and Ranger vs. Wizard stuff.  Look at it this way, when setting up a group/raid you can take the following.
 
A)  A character that offers a skill that won't be utilized and provides 300dps.
 
or
 
B) A character that will buff your group with str/int buffs, improve resists, give the tank offensive procs to help hold aggro and also deal out 400dps himself.
 
Which would you choose?
 
If you say "yeah, but class A has utility too" (pathfinding, track, disarm, and evac) you are sorely mistaken.  The bard in the group is going to provide all of this utility, and a whole lot more.  Besides, Class B can evac us too.  And disarm?  Let the tank eat the 200hp damage spell from the trap, oh well.  Pathfinding?  Not a big deal unless you are pulling mobs from across the zone back to your group.
 
 
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Old 02-17-2006, 01:38 AM   #18
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I notice a big debate over Wizard vs. Ranger dps.  I point never mentioned I thought I would bring up:
 
Wizard /w no power = no DPS
 
Ranger /w no power = some DPS
 
Though rangers and all other scouts that use arrows and poison pay for the additional DPS we can constantly provide it albiet not at such devastating numbers.  As soon as a wizard or any other mage class is OOP they OO DPS (except for pet classes).  I doubt that the classes that can transfer power will be giving it to the Wizard most like in my experience they are feeding the priest classes.
 
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Old 02-17-2006, 01:56 AM   #19
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If you think 400 DPS is good then you're a noob.  Rangers as of right now are easily putting out 1200+ DPS.  The minor int, str, and proc buffs are of no use on high end raids, therefore the only reason to bring a wizard/warlock on a raid would be for DPS.  Now lets do the math.  Bring a 1200 DPS class or a 400 DPS class?  1200 > 400, you take the 1200.  Read what the message says before you state something stupid.  People are intentionally using sub-par weapons becuase the slower delay is increasing their DPS, and not by a little but by a lot.  That is an exploit, they should be banned.  The tier 1 dps was supposed to be like the following:  direct damage = wizard/assisin/warlock/ranger.  Wizard out damaging an assisin maybe 3/4 of the time and not by a big margin.  Area effect = Warlock, ranger, wizard, assisin.  With the warlock out damanging the ranger maybe 3/4 of the time, also by not a big margin.  The current state of the game is:  Ranger = tier 0 and is out damanging everyone all of the time by a factor of about 2 to 5 times.  Rangers = broke.  If you're one of the people who are playing the game correctly you probably wont have much of a change to you.  Again read what the message says instead of screaming bloody murder...
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:05 AM   #20
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Ratril wrote:
If you think 400 DPS is good then you're a noob.  Rangers as of right now are easily putting out 1200+ DPS.  The minor int, str, and proc buffs are of no use on high end raids, therefore the only reason to bring a wizard/warlock on a raid would be for DPS.  Now lets do the math.  Bring a 1200 DPS class or a 400 DPS class?  1200 > 400, you take the 1200.  Read what the message says before you state something stupid.  People are intentionally using sub-par weapons becuase the slower delay is increasing their DPS, and not by a little but by a lot.  That is an exploit, they should be banned.  The tier 1 dps was supposed to be like the following:  direct damage = wizard/assisin/warlock/ranger.  Wizard out damaging an assisin maybe 3/4 of the time and not by a big margin.  Area effect = Warlock, ranger, wizard, assisin.  With the warlock out damanging the ranger maybe 3/4 of the time, also by not a big margin.  The current state of the game is:  Ranger = tier 0 and is out damanging everyone all of the time by a factor of about 2 to 5 times.  Rangers = broke.  If you're one of the people who are playing the game correctly you probably wont have much of a change to you.  Again read what the message says instead of screaming bloody murder...
 obviously you dotn play in beta, so you better shut up ^^, because this is not about the current state, this is actually about the coming changes that are on beta atm.and on beta a lv 60 ranger , t6 fableds and nearly full master1 does a fricking 350-400 dps when using all CA in one rush. average dps would bring ya down even further.
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:11 AM   #21
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We went from:                           P-I-M-PTo:          G-I-M-P
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:39 AM   #22
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It's going to bring down all the other melee and the summoner type classes also.  Everyone will be real close to what they are supposed to be.  Will, there need to be more tweaks, probably, but this is going to fix 90% of the issues.  I understand your crying, going from no one can touch your DPS to no longer being DPS kings is a big change but you were really broke.  Now you're being fixed.  Don't forget it's not just a fix to rangers.  The other melee classes were gaining the same benefits as they were.  It's a fix to everyone.  Wizards and warlocks were tier 3 DPS at best.  No one wanted them in a raid as they were more of a hinderance than a help.  They were actually the only classes that were doing the DPS that they were supposed to be doing.  As monk, brigands etc were out damaging them also.  When the patch goes live you will be right where you are supposed to be.  Rangers will still be liked and they will still be good DPS.  They just wont the be end all be all dps that they once were.  You're getting fixed, get over it.
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Old 02-17-2006, 03:26 AM   #23
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Ratril wrote:
People are intentionally using sub-par weapons becuase the slower delay is increasing their DPS, and not by a little but by a lot.  That is an exploit, they should be banned. 

ROFL BEST LINE EVER

Yes ban us all for using 1 of only 2 weapon types available! CLASSIC!!

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Old 02-17-2006, 04:24 AM   #24
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"obviously you dotn play in beta, so you better shut up ^^, because this is not about the current state, this is actually about the coming changes that are on beta atm.and on beta a lv 60 ranger , t6 fableds and nearly full master1 does a fricking 350-400 dps when using all CA in one rush. average dps would bring ya down even further."OMG. Is this for real??? You're telling my that my 60 Ranger is about to dps the same as my 60 Troubador??" I understand your crying, going from no one can touch your DPS to no longer being DPS kings is a big change but you were really broke.  Now you're being fixed. "I guess they're "fixing"(ball chop eunich style) Rangers back to pre lu13.  " Don't forget it's not just a fix to rangers.  The other melee classes were gaining the same benefits as they were.  It's a fix to everyone.  "Omg. you mean the other melee classes depended heavily on their procs for dps too??  wow." Rangers will still be liked and they will still be good DPS.  They just wont the be end all be all dps that they once were.  You're getting fixed, get over it."Liked for what??  good dps?? according to the poster  about 2-3 messages up. We are gimped.   If you were a man and they chopped your jewels, would you get over it?
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Old 02-17-2006, 05:14 AM   #25
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The ranger of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes promises to differ from their counterparts in other games. While the standard archery abilities still remain, her place in this game is no longer is just a fighter mixed with a druid.Classified as an offensive fighter the ranger in combat will focus on putting out the most damage she can on the opponent. A two weapon fighting style added to the use of bows, will allow her to start the attack at stand off range, then continue it all the way till the end with a finishing slash of blades.Unlike a defensive fighter the ranger's armor choices will be more limited. Chain types of armor will most likely be the heaviest armor for the class. This means that while she can hand out a lot of pain on her adversary, she won't be as able to take the damage like a pure fighter can. Still, the idea of killing your enemy before they kill you has its place- no matter your armor.Outside of combat is where a ranger's skills in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes may make her even more valuable. Travel through the wilderness in Telon promises to be an adventure in itself. The need to perceive the dangers around you will be very real. Having a guide to help you through will be a useful thing. This is where the ranger will shine, scouting the way ahead and spotting dangers which others might miss. Her ties with nature will be reflected in her observation abilities and skill at tracking the enemy.

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Old 02-17-2006, 05:55 AM   #26
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Wow, Vanguard certainly sounds like it will be perfect from the day it comes out and will never ever change and they'll allow a class to perform 2x the damage of every other class from day one on until the end of time. Where do I sign up?
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:25 AM   #27
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Sure was nice to not have to LFG forever for a while!  Ah well time to go back to that alt warlock I have!   Good thing I am in a guild or I would never be recruited for one!
 
 
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:30 AM   #28
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Many have asked my mages should be top tier DPS over rangers.  Its simple - I will trade you all my buffs (+ ordination, subjugation [Removed for Content], and my poison/disease resists) <--- my only 2 buffs - for your evac, pathfinding, disarm trap, and movement increase. 
 
In addition, scouts can get hit.  Mages are one-shotted by 99% percent of all T6 raid mobs where as scouts can pull these mobs and take a hit or two while the tanks pulls them off - no way any mage could do that with less mitigation armor, less hitpoints, and avoidance.
 
And theres the power consumption issue in addition to the previous advantages rangers have over mages.
 
So, Rangers can be TOP DPS if they trade us buffs and trade us armor and hitpoints and avoidance, and go OOP every T6 raid battle over 1 minute. 
 
Any other questions?  because I cannot fathom why you would think mages (especially warlocks) shouldn't get any advantages over another DPS class after giving up so much.  Apparently you dont know the other classes very well from my presumption.
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:57 AM   #29
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Many have asked my mages should be top tier DPS over rangers.  Its simple - I will trade you all my buffs (+ ordination, subjugation [Removed for Content], and my poison/disease resists) <--- my only 2 buffs - for your evac, pathfinding, disarm trap, and movement increase. 
 
In addition, scouts can get hit.  Mages are one-shotted by 99% percent of all T6 raid mobs where as scouts can pull these mobs and take a hit or two while the tanks pulls them off - no way any mage could do that with less mitigation armor, less hitpoints, and avoidance.
 
And theres the power consumption issue in addition to the previous advantages rangers have over mages.
 
So, Rangers can be TOP DPS if they trade us buffs and trade us armor and hitpoints and avoidance, and go OOP every T6 raid battle over 1 minute. 
 
Any other questions?  because I cannot fathom why you would think mages (especially warlocks) shouldn't get any advantages over another DPS class after giving up so much.  Apparently you dont know the other classes very well from my presumption.----------------------------------Man guy I love your idea How about this I will give you my chain armor so you can die in 2 hits instead of 1 and also Id love to hand you my Avoidance...  If i had any and also Just for good  measure You can have my 3 Basic "SCOUT" abilitys That every scout has. Sure why not!!  Maybe your presumption is wrong, cause even though we have chain armor we still die as fast as a caster  -DOHHHH-  Oh wait you know how it is, that im sure ofThe fact of the matter is We dont last any longer than you and if we do its usually around 3 - 6 seconds long and also have you ever seen a ranger run out of power?  it isnt pretty so why dont you go read some more or better yet I have an idea go make a ranger cause most opinions that are negitive to rangers and are totally oiff base to how rangers realy are come from some jealouse non-dps class or a lacky dps class that wished it had the dps that rangers have the potential to have.In lord of the rings what happened? The elf with the bow = ranger 1 hit about 800 orcs and gandalf the great grey geriatric was on a pretty horse and pranced around like a fairy and then got slammed by his buddy at the old folks home then climbed onto a eagle and flew away... gimmi a break..peace
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:04 PM   #30
King Leor

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
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Congrats Tal'shiar, you are officially the stupidest person to post on the ranger forums so far. WE haves tonnes of utility compared to wizards????? LOL!!!! My left testicle has more utility than a ranger does. We are strictly DPS. So do tell me, what exactly is it that we have that makes us great with utilities? And ya know...your right, my chain gear will withstand tonnes more from a raid mob than some cloth... PLEASE!!!

LeoricLevel 60 ranger

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