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Old 04-13-2008, 06:04 PM   #1
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I was curious about how big an effect the Hit Bonus stats on arrows had on our parses, and if it was better to hit more often or have a larger +damage bonus.  Most people recommend using Ferrite Field Point arrows, but it has the lowest damage modifier (and highest Hit Rate Bonus).  Also, in GU44 it was changed from +30% Hit Rate to +10% Hit Rate, and I wanted to know if this would be a big issue.I headed down to the Wall in KJ, and after waiting about 3 hours for a warden to finish getting skill ups (parsing about 45 dps and taking an hour per wall), I set up my test.  I fired 100 arrows of each type at the wall (it took about 1.5 walls for each), and then noted Extended DPS and ToHit%.  I ran this same test for Ferrite Broadhead, Ferrite Bodkin, Ferrite Field Point, and Makeshift Ferrite.Arrow                        Damage Mod    Hit Bonus    |    DPS    ToHit%Ferrite Broadhead     +281 Slash         -10%        |    375    90.51%Ferrite Bodkin            +184 Pierce           0%        |    390    95.29%Ferrite Field Point      +108 Crush        +10%       |    440    100.0%Makeshift Ferrite        +92 Pierce          - 5%        |    406     92.31%These results show that Field Point arrows are indeed the best choice for day to day use.  On the training wall (level 76) the hit% was perfect over 100 arrows.  This will go down as you encounter more challenging mobs, but the other types of arrows would be affected just as much.  This test also shows that the hit% modifier is more important than the damage modifier and the higher the hit bonus, the better.  Presumably the old +30% on field points was better than the +10% we currently have, but for blue con mobs such as the wall, it wouldn't have made a difference.  Also of note, the makeshift arrows did better than I thought in terms of dps, but I'd want to run a much larger test before ranking them ahead of broadheads and bodkins.... Maybe 1000 arrows each.
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Old 04-14-2008, 02:21 AM   #2
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Thanks for posting this, I find myself rather limited in my search for decent tested data on damage output.
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Old 04-14-2008, 03:45 AM   #3
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Curious.  I just came back from a four month break, just in time for LU44 and the changes to archery damage.  This morning, I went on a brief foray into Shard of Fear on a trash run, and was surprised to see that my DPS was between 2200-2900, and in all but one fight I was 200-300 points below an assassin who had similar (if not, then marginally inferior) gear.  We were in the same group, benefitting from a dirge (boxed by me), and it was a two-group trash run.  Is it typical for a ranger to be behind an assassin by this margin, or is my DPS low?

 AA Setup:  Agi, 4/4/6/8/1; Int, 4/4/4/8/1; Str, 4/4/4/8 (or similar); ranger tree, poison line to conservation, focus line to extension maxing short-term buffs, multi-shot line to double arrow sans 'repeating arrow'. 

Gear: Mixed match of some T7 fabled and T8 legendary, have fabled Eagle's Talon.  Ammunition used, viscous glob from Ichorstrand.

 Speaking of, based on Webinkaltani's findings, is the T8 bow-summoned ammo from Deathtoll still viable for raiding, or is it now less effective based on LU44's changes?

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Old 04-14-2008, 04:45 AM   #4
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muraseme wrote:

Curious.  I just came back from a four month break, just in time for LU44 and the changes to archery damage.  This morning, I went on a brief foray into Shard of Fear on a trash run, and was surprised to see that my DPS was between 2200-2900, and in all but one fight I was 200-300 points below an assassin who had similar (if not, then marginally inferior) gear.  We were in the same group, benefitting from a dirge (boxed by me), and it was a two-group trash run.  Is it typical for a ranger to be behind an assassin by this margin, or is my DPS low?

 AA Setup:  Agi, 4/4/6/8/1; Int, 4/4/4/8/1; Str, 4/4/4/8 (or similar); ranger tree, poison line to conservation, focus line to extension maxing short-term buffs, multi-shot line to double arrow sans 'repeating arrow'. 

Gear: Mixed match of some T7 fabled and T8 legendary, have fabled Eagle's Talon.  Ammunition used, viscous glob from Ichorstrand.

 Speaking of, based on Webinkaltani's findings, is the T8 bow-summoned ammo from Deathtoll still viable for raiding, or is it now less effective based on LU44's changes?

Might want to use Makeshift ferrite with ET. Globs are better with 70lvl bows like RSB but not on any bow above 75. Raiding Ammo looks like  ferrite field points with ET. Tenderwood is listed as a lvl 70 arrow (with the 10 lvls of soft cap) it should work with ET but does not . It acts like a lvl 65 like globs & skulls

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Old 04-14-2008, 07:14 AM   #5
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[email protected] wrote:
Arrow                        Damage Mod    Hit Bonus    |    DPS    ToHit%Ferrite Broadhead     +281 Slash         -10%        |    375    90.51%Ferrite Bodkin            +184 Pierce           0%        |    390    95.29%Ferrite Field Point      +108 Crush        +10%       |    440    100.0%Makeshift Ferrite        +92 Pierce          - 5%        |    406     92.31%
That is very strange; the numbers would indicate ferrite bodkin to give better results, but in this test they don't. I wonder if there is some other hidden modifier on the summoned ones. Which kind of sucks, cause we wanted to get rid of hidden modifiers...Would be interesting to see how it turns out when you use more arrows Webin. Perhaps you just had lucky big hits with the summoned.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:28 PM   #6
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[email protected] wrote:
I wonder if there is some other hidden modifier on the summoned ones. Which kind of sucks, cause we wanted to get rid of hidden modifiers...Would be interesting to see how it turns out when you use more arrows Webin. Perhaps you just had lucky big hits with the summoned.
I wouldn't put any money on hidden modifiers yet.  I don't feel 100 arrows and 1.5 walls is a statistically large enough test to make any definite claims.  I will almost definitely go back with more arrows at some point and run more tests to lock in the numbers... maybe kill 10 walls instead of shoot 100 arrows.  That would help even out the effects the the random number generator.  I'd also like to try it with a better bow as soon as I can.  I was using Ancestral Sarnak Long Bow for this because it's the best I have.  I did MMIS this weekend, but a fricken Pally won the Star Darkened Long Bow....  and I still have a LOT of questing to do to get my Eagle's Talon.
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Old 04-14-2008, 01:33 PM   #7
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I don't have my exact numbers (i'm at work) but for the Shard of hate run my guild did yesterdayField Point - 95% hit rateBodkin - 85% hit rateAverage Damage of the arrows for Bodkin went down... I'm assuming this is taking the total damage / total number fired .. vice .. Total Damage / Total number hit... But I'll need to verify... Anyone know by chance how Act calculates Average damage?
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Old 04-14-2008, 01:40 PM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:
But I'll need to verify... Anyone know by chance how Act calculates Average damage?

I would think that ACT would calculate your average damage based only on your hits (total damage / total hits) - and does not factor misses into the equations at all.  Should be really easy to check - but I'm not at home either.  

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Old 04-14-2008, 01:56 PM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:
I don't have my exact numbers (i'm at work) but for the Shard of hate run my guild did yesterdayField Point - 95% hit rateBodkin - 85% hit rateAverage Damage of the arrows for Bodkin went down... I'm assuming this is taking the total damage / total number fired .. vice .. Total Damage / Total number hit... But I'll need to verify... Anyone know by chance how Act calculates Average damage?
How many attacks did you do with each?  Without a sufficiently large number of samples, you could very well see that, just because of randomness. 
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Old 04-14-2008, 02:50 PM   #10
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"Arrow                        Damage Mod    Hit Bonus    |    DPS    ToHit%Ferrite Broadhead     +281 Slash         -10%        |    375    90.51%Ferrite Bodkin            +184 Pierce           0%        |    390    95.29%Ferrite Field Point      +108 Crush        +10%       |    440    100.0%Makeshift Ferrite        +92 Pierce          - 5%        |    406     92.31% - Webin"

I Would suggest trying this while leading with Focus Aim/Vunerability arrow and using "gracelessness" posions as it will have a significant impact on Hit rates and hence DPS.  This is not all that relevant in groups, ie. mobs die in 7-20 seconds.  It is very relevant soloing heroics and in fights that are >45 seconds in length.

Experts Gracelessness (With AA maxed) -> -82 AGI, -42 Deflection, Parry, Defense

Vunerability Arrow (M2) -> -75 Deflection, Parry, Defense

Actual Hit rates follow ->

Focus Aim -> Vunerability arrow -> Auto Attack until Focus Aim refreshes -> Stop (let ACT make this an encounter)   ... Parse ... Rinse/repeat

The casting order above provides actual dps for a "cycle" that includes ranger skills that impact Hit rates.

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Old 04-14-2008, 03:38 PM   #11
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Effidian wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
I don't have my exact numbers (i'm at work) but for the Shard of hate run my guild did yesterdayField Point - 95% hit rateBodkin - 85% hit rateAverage Damage of the arrows for Bodkin went down... I'm assuming this is taking the total damage / total number fired .. vice .. Total Damage / Total number hit... But I'll need to verify... Anyone know by chance how Act calculates Average damage?
How many attacks did you do with each?  Without a sufficiently large number of samples, you could very well see that, just because of randomness. 
I'll re-run last night's run thru ACT and post up the numbers when i get home...  I'm pretty sure I used 1000 Field points and about 400 bodkin total yesterday...(I didn't resupply between PR and Hate cause there wasn't time)I just know I was surprised that the Field Points did a significant amount of damage more ...I'll try and dig up the PR results as well.. I Missed one or two of the boss mobs but I should have a decent sampling for each of the zones but I only used Field points in PR.
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:17 PM   #12
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Ok,  Here's what I have from ACT:Crush (Field Point)  +108 CrushTotal Damage:  4980582Average hit: 5355.46Hits: 930Crit Hits: 593"swings": 976To Hit %: 95.29Pierce (Bodkin) + 184 PierceTotal Damage: 928280Average hit: 4990.75 Hits: 186 Crit Hits: 104 "swings": 218 To Hit %: 85.32For some reason I crit'd 7-8% less on the Bodkins... which could explain why overall my Average hit was less...Obviously the Pierce sample is incredibly small in relation to the Crush sample...---------------------------------For Protectors Realm:Crush (Field Point)  +108 Crush Total Damage: 1632453 Average hit: 5590.59 Hits: 292 Crit Hits: 214 "swings": 308 To Hit %: 94.81Didn't use any Bodkin's in PR so no data there...But... for the "To Hit%" they matched up pretty darn close...Same stats/group buffs throughout
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Old 04-14-2008, 08:00 PM   #13
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There is no doubt the field point is the best arrow. I've tested all 3 arrows on test a couple weeks ago. My parse was always better with the field point arrows.

I would have guess the bodkin arrows would be better in the long run, but they are not even though they have no hit mod.

No doubt the +10% hit mod makes a world of difference.

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Old 04-16-2008, 10:14 PM   #14
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ok can i get a hey developer something doesnt make sense.

 if i the player invest x amount of rares for a adept 3 or am lucky enough for an arrow summon master 1 or 2, shouldnt that level of ability effect the stats of a pc summoned arrow that that player has mastered the art of or become very adept at?

just this rangers thinking.....yesh woodworkers work hard for those arrows they craft, but so dont we? do we not invest the time upgrading the ability? for what? just more arrows? summon should have better stats, at least more on par with crafted, after all we're not makeshifting a lower tier for arrows. in some cases even maybe at master or better it could have better stats....rare arrows were where it was at. i still got stacks of cobalt arrows, the decimate t6 mobs. i wish t7/t8 had xegonite/t8rare arrows.

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Old 04-19-2008, 05:17 PM   #15
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Well I was bored today so I spend several hours at the wall firing almost 3000 arrows to see which arrow is better and as Webin pointed out the Field Point arrows are indeed the best. Their hit bonus far outways the damage loss compared to the other arrows.Arrow         Dam   Hit  Arrows  Tot Dam  Hits  Crit  Shots  Delay   Hit%  Crit%  Avg Hit    DPSField Point  +108  +10%     920  1169493   770   401    848   4.04  90.80  52.08  1518.82  341.37Bodkin       +184   +0%     954  1171324   735   387    886   4.04  82.96  52.65  1593.64  327.24Makeshift     +92   -5%     959  1045630   684   361    888   4.09  77.03  52.78  1528.70  287.90
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:10 PM   #16
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Excellent.Why is your ToHit% lower?  The wall isn't THAT hard a mob, so how did I top out at 100% and you at 91%?
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:58 PM   #17
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[email protected] wrote:
Excellent.Why is your ToHit% lower?  The wall isn't THAT hard a mob, so how did I top out at 100% and you at 91%?
I suspect it was because I had all of my "procing" bonuses turned off, including my offensive stance, so no +ranged bonus. I wanted to have as few variables as possible between each arrow sample, and did not want random proc rates skewing the results. Unlike my previous "parse the wall" effort this was not a 100% damage effort.
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Old 04-21-2008, 01:29 PM   #18
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Good thinking.  My initial post was with my "standard" buffs... including offensive stance, Leaf Icon, Tiger Icon, Pathfinding, and I think even Green poison dagger Icon.I'm out of it today, can't remember what those spells are called SMILEY<img src=" />
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:29 PM   #19
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Also to maximize your DPS, ranged and melee, there are Elixir of tactics which adds +12% to ranged and melee crits.  Str potions should help as well as that reflects your maximum damage.  In raid after respecing lost of times I have gotten it to over 700.  That being said I was in a group with a huge STR buff.  I use Field Point all the time as I looked at the damage rating for each arrow in my persona window and the Field point did the most low and high end.  Using Fabled Eagle Talon w/no adornment.  I use my makeshift when soloing or doing instances as the mobs tend to go down fast anyways.  No sense spending the money for the uber arrows as I don't have a ww like Webin. ;P 
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:58 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:
Also to maximize your DPS, ranged and melee, there are Elixir of tactics which adds +12% to ranged and melee crits.  Str potions should help as well as that reflects your maximum damage.  In raid after respecing lost of times I have gotten it to over 700.  That being said I was in a group with a huge STR buff.  I use Field Point all the time as I looked at the damage rating for each arrow in my persona window and the Field point did the most low and high end.  Using Fabled Eagle Talon w/no adornment.  I use my makeshift when soloing or doing instances as the mobs tend to go down fast anyways.  No sense spending the money for the uber arrows as I don't have a ww like Webin. ;P 
Which Flavor of Elixir of Tactics gives +12%, the best one I could find gives me +8%. Also I cannot use both the Elixir and the str potion at the same time, which one is better? My str is over 700 self buffed (solo), more with group buffs of others. I use Field Points all the time as well thanks to my testing and the fact that I am a woodworker, I sell far more than I use so this is not a net expense for me.
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Old 04-22-2008, 06:02 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Also to maximize your DPS, ranged and melee, there are Elixir of tactics which adds +12% to ranged and melee crits.  Str potions should help as well as that reflects your maximum damage.  In raid after respecing lost of times I have gotten it to over 700.  That being said I was in a group with a huge STR buff.  I use Field Point all the time as I looked at the damage rating for each arrow in my persona window and the Field point did the most low and high end.  Using Fabled Eagle Talon w/no adornment.  I use my makeshift when soloing or doing instances as the mobs tend to go down fast anyways.  No sense spending the money for the uber arrows as I don't have a ww like Webin. ;P 
Which Flavor of Elixir of Tactics gives +12%, the best one I could find gives me +8%. Also I cannot use both the Elixir and the str potion at the same time, which one is better? My str is over 700 self buffed (solo), more with group buffs of others. I use Field Points all the time as well thanks to my testing and the fact that I am a woodworker, I sell far more than I use so this is not a net expense for me.
It is 8% there i not 12%. And yes, you cannot use tactics and a str potion. If you are over 700 str self buffed then you should be hitting the soft cap in your raid group therefore tactics is better.
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Old 04-22-2008, 06:09 PM   #22
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True the STR and tactics cannot be used together.  sorry if that confused some.  I will have to scrrenshot the tactics I use.  I am sure the T7 version gives +10% and the T8 version gives +12%, but I have been wrong once when I was 5.  So I will likely post a pic later today.
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Old 04-22-2008, 06:32 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:
True the STR and tactics cannot be used together.  sorry if that confused some.  I will have to scrrenshot the tactics I use.  I am sure the T7 version gives +10% and the T8 version gives +12%, but I have been wrong once when I was 5.  So I will likely post a pic later today.

No problem, your statement "as well as" just confused me.

Both the T7 and the T8 versions of tactics give +4% RC (+8% with the ranger poison AA). The difference is the time they last. The T7 lasts 10 min (20 with our AA), the T8 lasts 15 min (30 with our AA).

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:56 PM   #24
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What about the T7 Fabled arrow summoning bows?

umbral darkness:

+128 Piercing

+15% Hit bonus

Thats got to still be good, right?

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Old 12-29-2008, 09:30 AM   #25
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Memran wrote:

What about the T7 Fabled arrow summoning bows?

umbral darkness:

+128 Piercing

+15% Hit bonus

Thats got to still be good, right?

If you're using a T7 bow then yes these are very good.

If you're in T8 however they are not as good as the T8 player-made as they are from a tier lower and this will reduce your max auto-attack damagevalue.

You can test this easy enough by placing the arrow type you want to test in the first available slot in your quiver. Then check your AA damage range on your Persona tab, or use the /we command. Swap out the arrows and repeat.

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Old 12-31-2008, 01:50 PM   #26
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Tested umbral darkness when the RoK "arrow fix" came out and its far less than makeshift.
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