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Old 05-31-2006, 05:46 AM   #31
Kukuzhong

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I think the above posters have basically captured the essence of the difference between the 2 predator classes.

However, all things being equal, I feel assassins will always do better dps than rangers. As far as i've been able to ascertain, this boils down to 3 factors.

1.      Higher DR on Melee weapons Vs Bows.

The average assassin will be able to get a combined DR of over 100 using the Grizzfazzle  dirk and T Fang, while the average ranger will only get about 80 DR with the Grizzfazzle Bow. The promise to bring bow auto-attack damage nearer to melee weapons has never been fulfilled. Best bow at the moment has DR of 98.1 (I think), while best DW combination easily has 120.

2.      Assassins have higher damage CAs with lower casting timers

Higher damage CAs with lower casting timers let assassins do more auto-attack damage, of which they have an advantage. The longer recast timers do not really factor here as I believe they have loads and loads of CAs to use in a cycle (including their ranged CAs). By the time the last CA is cast, the first is ready to be used again.

3.      Assassins perm dps buff is about 20% more than ranger’s perm haste buff

If both classes get 100% DPS and haste, this point is pretty much moot (even then, assassins get an advantage as mentioned in point 1), but more often than not, that is not likely. If so, the low delay of the higher DR DWs, coupled with the higher DPS buff will let assassins have the advantage over rangers in auto-attack anytime.

I also believe jousting does not affect assassins much, as they can pretty much move out and fire off their ranged CAs during AEs, after which they can move back right in to lay on the damage.

Thus, with each class played to its max potential, assassins will always do better dps. I play a ranger (surprise!) and on raids I joust and such (move in to do melee CAs while ranged CAs are refreshing). Even so, for the past couple of weeks of parsed raids, I’ve been consistently been about 200 dps lower than our guild’s top assassin (for reference, there’s another assassin that’s consistently 200 dps below me), and yes, our gear and spells are pretty much equal.

I know some will flame me for bringing up this topic again, but from what I’ve seen, and what others have observed, there is a gulf between the 2 predator classes, which I hope can be addressed. The usual disclaimers hold, that this is not asking for a nerf to assassins (whom I believe are just where they should be), but rather for a look into ranger dps issues. Just some thoughts of mine, thanks.

Message Edited by Kukuzhong on 05-30-2006 06:47 PM

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Old 05-31-2006, 02:45 PM   #32
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Kukuzhong wrote:
I know some will flame me for bringing up this topic again, but from what I’ve seen, and what others have observed, there is a gulf between the 2 predator classes, which I hope can be addressed. The usual disclaimers hold, that this is not asking for a nerf to assassins (whom I believe are just where they should be), but rather for a look into ranger dps issues. Just some thoughts of mine, thanks.

Message Edited by Kukuzhong on 05-30-2006 06:47 PM


Agreed.Assasins simply hit harder, compare something like sniper shot which has a base dmg value of around 5k to Assinate or Decapitate.Cant really see SoE boosting ranger dps to be honest, sucks for us but we are not gimped and Assasins are not overpowered so we'll just have to put up with being 2nd best.Not much a player can do to get around the system, I am all mastered out with the very best posions/potions and even if I go all out I know a well played Assasin with similar kit is going to do more damage.
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Old 05-31-2006, 05:27 PM   #33
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Ranvarenaya and SIlly Muffin - Well said!
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Old 06-01-2006, 12:30 PM   #34
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Jay42 wrote:

Okay, everyone got their [Removed for Content] on? Good, good. I'm sure this is exactly what the OP was interested in.

Leaving the posturing and trolls aside, the fundamental differences b/w the two predator classes as I understand them:

  • Rangers do most of their damage via ranged attacks; assassins do it through melee attacks.
  • Thus, assassins have more stealth / flanking backstab attacks, and rangers have more ranged CAs.
  • Rangers are good-aligned, assassins evil.
  • Rangers have a little bit of elemental damage thrown in for extra flavor; with assassins, it's poison and disease, IIRC.
  • Assassins CAs generally hit harder but take longer to refresh.
  • Rangers only self-buff AGI; assassins self-buff STR and AGI. <<<<<
  • Assassins have an aggro redirect that they can put on the MT, while Rangers have a constant hate reducer that minimizes their aggro gain by up to 40% or so.

I'm sure there's more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.


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Old 06-06-2006, 01:55 PM   #35
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valleyboy1 wrote:Agreed.Assasins simply hit harder, compare something like sniper shot which has a base dmg value of around 5k to Assinate or Decapitate.
I totally agree in general - but have to disagree on sniper vs assassinate and decapitate.  At the same str and skill level the damage of sniper shot vs assassinate is identical, and assassinate is the assassin level 50 skill and sniper shot is the ranger level 58 skill.  Decapitate replaces assassinate as a level 70 vs 50 skill just as rain of arrows replaces storm of arrows for the ranger 50/70 skills. However, a lot of the decrepency of an equally well played ranger vs assassin dps comes down to 2 things. 1)  The damage of assassin combat arts is greater than ranger combat arts.  A big noticable differance for example is the relatively useless 65 ranger skill of Hawk Dive (yeah for a skill that does trivial dps and breaks stealth) vs Exacting (+30% damage and lowers recast time on lower than 1 minute recast skills). 2)   Rangers have to spend a lot of time at ranged kicking out our higher damage skills and using ranged auto attack while they're all going off.  Even with a fabled bow, a 96.5 or so DR just can't compete with an over 120 DR using 2 DW fabled weapons.  In order for rangers to do good dps they have to dive in and kick out the melee skills while the longer refresh bow arts are refreshing and do greater auto-attack damage.  I have no problem with melee weapons doing a higher auto-attack compared to ranged auto attack since there is more risk involved, but the differance between the two is frankly very noticeable by a large amount. I do not want to see any kind of nerf happen to assassins, but the bottom line is a well played and equally well geared assassin simply will out dps a ranger by a significant amount.
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Old 06-07-2006, 10:56 AM   #36
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I think you guys have done a great job with the differences. For the most part I think assassins have the edge, especially in terms of overall dps.  Though I believe Rangers need some lovin' badly (although not huge amounts), we do have a few advantages to consider as well:

  1. Can do a lot of damage from range.  This is a big advantage in raids or AE mobs.  It's a disadvantage if you have tanks who don't turn the mobs because it is really hard to get behind and to the side for positional range attacks. 
  2. When both Rain of Arrows (level 50&70 group hit) and Selection (AOE) are up, you can inflict some serious group damage in a short period of time.  Assassins don't get Storm/Rain, instead they get the big single target hit which they can use more often than we can use snipe. 
  3. Focus Aim (10s critical increaser) is a VERY useful skill.  Unfortunately, it's only through combining Focus Aim with high damage attacks that we can really shine in dps.  In fights without Focus up, you feel pretty gimped.
  4. Although not used often, the no-line-of-sight-required range CA (Amazing Shot, Miracle, etc.) can sometimes come in very handy.  You can sometimes do things not even pet classes can do.
  5. With Poise, ranged attacks happen a lot faster and at least for me it feels a lot more fun.  But it takes a while to get Poise.

All that being said, I would trade everything "special" about being a ranger for a justified DPS increase in a heartbeat. 

A good ranger will beat a crappy assassin every time, but you can't compete against an equal one. 

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Old 06-07-2006, 05:47 PM   #37
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Xney wrote:

Although not used often, the no-line-of-sight-required range CA (Amazing Shot, Miracle, etc.) can sometimes come in very handy.  You can sometimes do things not even pet classes can do.

All that being said, I would trade everything "special" about being a ranger for a justified DPS increase in a heartbeat. 


Not used often? Really? I use Amazing Shot every time it's up, just as a normal attack... in addition to being our best "ranged utility attack," it has some of the highest damage of any CA in my arsenal.

And yeah, unfortunately ther eisn't much that's "special" about being a ranger right now. It's still fun if you like the concept, but in EQ2 gameplay, there isn't a whole lot that sets us apart from the rest of the herd.

RE: assassins... I think they're well-designed and well-balanced at the moment (looking at it from the outside), and I don't think that the discrepancy b/w the two predator classes is due to assassins being able to do anything they shouldn't. I think a lot of it comes down to better overall CA dmg on their end, and to gear - to the bows vs. melee weapons problem especially. The DR of your average longbow just doesn't compare to two-handers or dual-wielders, and good longbows are so rare as to be nonexistent to most of us.

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Old 06-08-2006, 01:48 AM   #38
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I meant not used often in that way SMILEY  Of course, you use it as a regular damage skill all the time.  Figures after reading my (mandatory) preview last night, i thought about changing the wording.  I figured everybody could just figure out how I meant it and follow that SMILEY

I agree with you assassins are not overpowered, we just need to be brought up to their fair level.  I haven't found a way to match them unless I get damage buffs they don't.

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Old 06-08-2006, 05:50 PM   #39
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Right, sorry for nitpicking the post. SMILEY  You know, I've never really seriously thought of betraying, but I just allowed myself to consider it for a minute, and it's sad that I had to concede that I would fill my role more effectively if I were an assassin. I don't really *want* to be an assassin, and I'm adamant about playing this for FUN and not to be uber... but it's just lame that we have such a tough time putting out comparable damage.

And if I could betray and become a brigand? Yikes. THAT would be a really difficult choice.

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Old 06-08-2006, 10:08 PM   #40
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Server populations would have 100 new brigands instantly.
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Old 06-09-2006, 12:07 AM   #41
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Indeed. Seems like they're the up-and-comers right now - great damage, incredible debuffs, some aggro control, and they seem pretty sturdy for a scout class. I think they're the best-kept secret in the scout archetype; for some reason they haven't seemed to be an overly popular class, but they're killer in groups and raids, and arguably the top of the heap when it comes to a balance of damage and utility.
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Old 06-09-2006, 12:15 AM   #42
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I can't see myself betraying to become an assassin.  But if it was possible to betray and become a brigand I'd seriously consider it.
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Old 06-09-2006, 07:37 AM   #43
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Assassins and ranger CA's all basically do the same damage except for four which gives them a clear advantage. 1 Their lvl 65 spell, we get a gimptard bird that hits for 100-200ish that draws aggro (yeah if you think thats useful and rely on that aggro draw on a raid i laugh at you, not to mention its a 4% increase from ad1 to m1) where as assassins get that 30% dmg increase to all spells under a minute timer on a 3 minute recast. yeah tell me thats fair? 2 Assassinate doesn't has a much shorter cast time and does more dmg then sniper shot did, however assassins are using decapitate now >< which does 10k+ compared to sniper [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] (comparing my hh of 18k to what most hitting for 29k ish) 3 Their Killing blade is on a 3 minute timer while our veiled shot is on a 1 1/2 minute timer, killing blade doing over 2x more dmg (the 2 are compareable abilities) since every single assassin has perfectionist, they get it on a 2 minute timer with a 15% dmg increase (yup thats fair too) 4 The king of them all is their mark line, thats the heart and soul of their dps, thats their extra 30% dps right there that we don't have and why they're on top, i'm not really sure what we get in exchange for that, but my guess is devitilizing arrow. now how do the two of them compare? woot an okay debuff and decent amount of dmg vs 30% dps increase in total dps? The dmg ratings and arrow costs are just the icing on a cake, and really if they never did anything to those and balanced those CA's things would actually be quite even
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Old 06-09-2006, 10:21 AM   #44
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This is probably a bit off topic for this thread, but we have to put together some comprehensive, well-organized information before SOE I think is going to seriously look at the disparity.  Right now, they seem to think everything is peachy with Rangers when it's not (minus the arrow situation - people have reported it's on their list)
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Old 06-09-2006, 12:26 PM   #45
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One difference i have noticed, and this is just from my experience, is that Assassins tend to die more often. For some reason the assassin in guild is sometimes butt naked by the time i am at 60%. He doesnt have his hate transfer at master or adept 3 though, so he pulls a bunch of agro.
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