EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > Class Discussion > Scout's Den > Ranger
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-23-2005, 06:31 PM   #1
Greyson1

General
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
Default

My ranger (lvl 45) is going to be at higher end raiding levels soon.   I was wondering what you experienced rangers do to avoid stealing the aggro?  I'm usally able to keep it on the MT but everynow and then the mob gets a little mad at me and spins around and knocks a few of my body parts off.
 
Usally what I do is this
1. Give MT about 5 seconds to attack>then I do the flanking stealth move and the high damage stealth attack, then put on my dots/debuffs.  Use deaggro abilities, wait on the deaggro refreshtimers in case I get aggro and now back up and start firing off bow attacks.  If I'm gonna get aggro this is when it comes, and sometimes even then my deaggro skills dont loose it quickly.  I use the imbued lvl 50 long bow along with the skill that lowers aggro on all my attacks by 32%.  I could only imagine if I opened straight with bow attacks how hard keeping aggro would be.
 
How do you guys usually open up your can of butt whoopin?
 
Thanks in advance!

Message Edited by Greyson102 on 09-23-2005 07:35 AM

Greyson1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2005, 07:16 PM   #2
Zholain

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 641
Default

Unless I know it is a mob who will be dead by the time I release my third or fourth high damage attack, I generally try to not use them all in succession.  If I do, I'll get agro every time. I generally start with my flanking melee attacks, which included any debuffs/dot's, then step back and release at most 3 of the higher damage bow attacks, mixing in de-agro stuff along the way.  Then move back in and repeat.  If after this, the mob isn't already down, a good tank should have enough agro that you can go nearly all out. In short, firing all your bow attacks in succession is generally not recommended in my book.  Mixing it up will result in similar dps numbers, and you will never have drawn agro.
__________________
Zholain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2005, 09:33 PM   #3
Jay

General
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,137
Default

Most of the folks I group with know that scouts are best for starting HOs, so I usually spin one of those first, and the tank advances with a taunt. Sometimes I hit Ensnare and Corner first, so I can get the debuff effect in without flipping the HO. On to low-end melee attacks - debuffs / DoTs - and while I'm in back, a lil Longshank > Tanglethorn. Back off and start with my low-end bow attacks, like Debilitating, Miracle, and Leg Shot. Close back in for melee and start turning up the heat with Surveil > Crippling Blade. More HOs, perhaps another stealth attack if I'm seeing the taunts coming in regular succession. Start mixing in some bigger bow attacks, like Culling or a Surveil > Hidden, but I intersperse them with melee or I drop Evasion in the middle to keep the aggro from building too fast. Eventually I work up to Triple Fire and Sharp Shot once I feel pretty good about the tank's aggro.

Basically, just what Zho said - don't cue up four or five bow attacks in a row; start small and work your way into the higher-damage skills and you should be fine. With our new Evasion line and the changes to Primal Reflexes, I think it's easier for us to prevent hate gain or to drop aggro in the event that we pull it accidentally.

__________________
Jay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2005, 10:08 PM   #4
GrayStorm

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 155
Default

When I'm grouped I always let tank pull.  If the mob is nearby I hit the Evade and then back up for Trick arrow.  Then I cycle through all bow attacks.  Then I go to either melee or the stealthed attacks...  bascially, everytime trick arrow or Evade spells line (called something else at 47) becomes available I use it.  I rarely have any aggro problems even when I earn top dps in the group on a kill.   My warlock and wizard friends are always dancing on the edge of catastrophy it seems.  I've watch our warlock pull aggro time and time again, even when he was pulling his punches.  hehe.

So yeah, in a nutshell -> trick shot & evade as much as possible.

It also helps being on Teamspeak as the tank can tell us when he has the mob's full attention.  Then I we can all unleash our worst. lol.

In a real raid against an Epic I may not do anything at first.  Just Evade, Trick arrow and wait....   and wait... then start melee... dots... debuffs maybe... work up to the big stuff towards the last few minutes of the battle.

God I love this game.

Message Edited by GrayStorm on 09-23-2005 11:11 AM

__________________
Kyudoka
Red Rum


Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. -- HL Mencken.
GrayStorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2005, 10:41 PM   #5
gossi

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 79
Default

The aggro system is different now than it was pre combat changes.  It is much like the EQ1 system.  My suggestion, use a deaggro every 7th or 8th CA melee attack and every 3rd or 4th CA ranged attack.  This isnt a end all cure all, it really depends on the level of your CA's, the encounter, additional procs you have, etc.  To become successful in a high end raiding guild you must figure out quickly (heroic grouping, etc) exactly how far you can go before your hate overwhelms that of your tank.  I have a solid idea going into every fight of what CA's I want to use and what order to maximize their use/benefits.  Most comes from simple experiance with playing your class, the rest is going to take some critiquing and thought. One MAJOR tip for any young rangers looking to go high end content.  If you do pull aggro on a raid, 99% of the time you want to run to the Main Tank and stand on top of him.  Spam your deaggros and die if you must, but don't be that nub that runs all over the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] place getting everyone killed with AE's because you dont want to die. Linyen Ranger Fires of Heaven
gossi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2005, 10:43 PM   #6
DevinK

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 32
Default

Get a good tank. That's it. Provided you do evasion and surveil when they're up, you can do ALL of your high damage moves in succession. Culling the Head - > Triple Fire - > Surveil -> Hidden Fire (Master 2, of course) -> Longshank -> Dire Blade -> Storm of Arrows -> Sharp Shot -> anything...  You really won't get agro unless your tank sucks. And if he does, just tone everything down accordingly.
__________________


Hosting Dragon Pajama Parties since 1997
DevinK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2005, 10:53 PM   #7
gossi

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 79
Default


DevinK wrote:Get a good tank. That's it. Provided you do evasion and surveil when they're up, you can do ALL of your high damage moves in succession. Culling the Head - > Triple Fire - > Surveil -> Hidden Fire (Master 2, of course) -> Longshank -> Dire Blade -> Storm of Arrows -> Sharp Shot -> anything...  You really won't get agro unless your tank sucks. And if he does, just tone everything down accordingly.

I disagree with you.  I would say that the Main Tank FoH has on raids is the best tank in the game at this time.  No matter how much he taunts, attacks the mob, whatever, you can pull aggro with ease.  If you use straight melee CA's then you are right, unless your tank is useless, you will not pull aggro.  HOWEVER, if you use any sort of proc gear/poison/offensive stance, you WILL get aggro easily if used in succession without deaggro control no matter who is tanking.  A lack of knowledge of the ranger subclass before and after the combat changes is clearly shown.  To the original poster....practice makes perfect and no amount of forum reading is going to give you the knowledge of when your character is going to aggro the mob for sure.  Keep playing and you will figure it out.  If you have any other questions you can use the in game, cross server chat..../tell Permafrost.Linyen "whatever..." Linyen Ranger Fires of Heaven

Message Edited by gossin6 on 09-23-2005 02:54 PM

gossi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2005, 11:29 PM   #8
Zholain

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 641
Default


DevinK wrote: Get a good tank. That's it. Provided you do evasion and surveil when they're up, you can do ALL of your high damage moves in succession. Culling the Head - > Triple Fire - > Surveil -> Hidden Fire (Master 2, of course) -> Longshank -> Dire Blade -> Storm of Arrows -> Sharp Shot -> anything...  You really won't get agro unless your tank sucks. And if he does, just tone everything down accordingly.

I disagree as well.  Even when using de-agro abilities, I can still pull agro from the tank nearly at will.  And I can tell you, that I am grouping and raiding with one of the most accomplished guardians on my server.  I can also tell you with 100% certainly he does not 'suck'.
__________________
Zholain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2005, 12:01 AM   #9
smoody

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 41
Default

I play a level 50 ranger and often play with either a paladin or guardian MT. Many times we will play games with solo or lower level heroic mobs to see if I can pull aggro. In these cases, I give the MT 5 secs to establish aggro and then I open up with everything I have trying to steal the aggro. Through these games, both the tanks and I have learned what it takes for them to keep aggro off of me when it matters.

Here is a short summary.
1. The tank needs to actively taunt the mob at all times. Group taunts if they are available.
2. The ranger needs to use their hate reducers at every opportunity.
3. For epic mobs, it's a good idea to slow down on CA's and time the use of them to coincide with your hate reducers.
4. Pay particular attention to a tank running out of mana and slow down on the DPS. It doesn't matter how good the tank is, if he runs out of mana, he starts falling on the hate list.

For the first few days of the new combat system, it seemed that every mob turned around on me. However, as the tanks and I have accustomed ourselves to the changes, it is now rare for the mob to turn on me. In the rare situations where the mob does turn on me, I usually forgot to use the aggro reducer and fired off several successive high damage attacks.

My current setup is Hidden Fire (Master II), Storm of Arrows (Adept III) and Sharp Shot (Adept III). In combat situations, I am running a poison debuff and a high DD poison (player-made). This setup is providing awesome DPS without overburdening the tank. We have some very effective hate reducers (when I remember to use them). As a courtesy to your MT, let him know about SoA before you start firing it. It's not uncommon to find a very angry mob hitting on me, if the tank isn't using their group taunts before I fire off SoA.  :smileymad:

Fredethel

__________________
62 Ranger / 64 Provisioner - Nektulos (Vengeance)
65 Alchemist
61 Carpenter
smoody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2005, 12:19 AM   #10
theorbell

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 59
Default

I seem to also be able to pull aggro at will, except with a pally being MT  - the one i run with puts his hate stealer spell on me and i can unload from pull to dead, hard as i want and i can't get aggro.  Zerks, Guards, Monks etc?  I gotta play it slow, with evasion tactics etc and still sometimes manage to get aggro on occasion, though we're getting better at walking the line the more we play.
__________________
theorbell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2005, 12:41 AM   #11
Jay

General
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,137
Default

I like the inverse relationship: as the tank should spam their taunts every time they refresh, so should the ranger spam their de-aggros every time they refresh. Nice symmetry there.
 
Aggro management is everyone's job, not just the MT's.
__________________
Jay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2005, 02:23 AM   #12
Crychtonn

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 684
Default

Use of a mid DD / DoT poison can make a big difference in controlling aggro also.  I typically only use high DD poisons like Torrent of Ages when I'm solo'ing.
 
As far as epic mobs and raiding make sure to learn what type of attacks the mob has.  Alot of the epic/raid mobs you can use the above listed tactic's.  But on mobs like Vaz'gok, Arch Lich and Bobo or Hondo in Icy Diggs that stun the MT you need to really hold down your DPS.  Stunned tanks can't taunt and while the stuns can be cured it still cuts down the taunts noticably.  Power drain mobs are similar in you must keep and eye on the MT's power.  If he's down to low or zero stick to auto attack tell a Wizz can mana pump him.
 
 
Lastly and most importantly.  As someone already mentioned if you do get aggro during a raid Run your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to the MT and sit on him Immediately.  The longer a raid mob faces the main raid force the higher the chance for a complete wipe goes.  Riposte off a raid mob can and most likely will kill any of the melee classes, i.e. why MT typically don't attack raid mobs and just taunt them.
 
 
 
PS - I know it's the elementals and not the AL thats stuns but it amounts to the same thing SMILEY
 
Crychtonn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2005, 12:24 PM   #13
hieronym

General
hieronym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 493
Default



theorbell wrote:
I seem to also be able to pull aggro at will, except with a pally being MT  - the one i run with puts his hate stealer spell on me and i can unload from pull to dead, hard as i want and i can't get aggro.  Zerks, Guards, Monks etc?  I gotta play it slow, with evasion tactics etc and still sometimes manage to get aggro on occasion, though we're getting better at walking the line the more we play.


Totally agree pally seems the hardest to get aggro from now. I was experimenting aggro with a guildy the other night and no matter how hard and early I done the damage I couldnt get the aggro. Amends adept1 on me was all it took. I even took off my primal reflexes but still couldnt get aggro, even using my 300 poison would not work.

Regarding raids I always wait 10-15 seconds to see what happens, if the tank gets a nasty damage spike on pull and a wipe looks on the cards you can strip off, get safe and wait for the wipe. Normally that waiting time gives the tank enough time to build up aggro so you can unleash...

__________________
Hiero the Ranger

Essen the Zerker
hieronym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2005, 01:29 PM   #14
ChaosUndivided

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 692
Default

Aye Pallies seem hard to pull aggro off with their hate stealer. Primal Agility Adept 3 is -48% hate reduction.

With a Dirge in the MT grp, and a Troub in the Ranger grp, Im finding unlimited dps a reality. Dirges pack a +hate buff to the MT, and troubs now have a -Hate buff to non fighters. Expect to be grouped with a lot more Troubs now, their + stats, mana regen, and deaggro buff is wicked.

 

Otherwise I can pull Aggro off any tank with Triple Arrow Adept 3 + Culling of the Weak Master 1, Or just Stream of Arrows Adept 3, this thing is aggro machine.

ChaosUndivided is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2005, 09:00 PM   #15
A

 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 165
Default

Keep primal reflexes on.

Start the fight by unleashing all your melees CA as well as your detaunt (evade).

Once you have used all your melee CA ( including crippling blade),

Cast surveil and back away from the mob.

Use Hidden fire/ Culling the Herd/Tripple Fire/Sharp Shot/leg Shot/Debilitating arrow.

As soon as Evade ( detaunts) is up use it again.

get back into melee, rince and repeat....

With a good tank you should be fine, with an average tank you may grab aggro around the time you unleash your last bow CAs.... Use storm of arrows at your own risk, usually if you fire it during the first round of bow CA you will end up grabbing aggro. Personally I would wait later in the fight if it's a raid mob, of course feel free to use against heroic mob as just one rotation of all CAs is enough to kill the mob or get it to bellow 10% at least.
 
 
 
Doing it this way allows the MT to build aggro while you do the less damaging melee CA and sets you in a good position to use your bow CAs.

Message Edited by Ail on 09-26-2005 10:06 AM

A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2005, 07:30 PM   #16
Saihung23

Loremaster
Saihung23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware:Home of...Home of...we got stuff!
Posts: 1,527
Default

keeping agro off of your ranger can be tricky...I think.  Especially if your MT is bored of his taunts.  I think finding a good tank is very difficult....but if you are like me...MAKE him/her/it understand Trick Arrow. If you explain to them, wait for my arrow, then attack followed by a taunt...then the rest of us will attack- I find that is the best way to start big fights.  You have to explain to everyone though....because Mages and casters have a tendency to see the arrow and unload...then they act surprised when the big mean monster starts tearing them a new poop chute.  So...I say working with your tank is key...get to know your tank (they generally are the big silent types), and educate your party members on how you want to start the encounters. One thing that works very well is to set up a macro to your hotbar that will announce the arrow is being shot...something like "Main Tank Attack!!".  That works very well...i have a few set up for incoming mobs...adds...and stuff like that. Good Luck
__________________
Saihung23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2005, 07:30 AM   #17
The_Wind

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 181
Default

Another good idea here is to setup macro's to run with it. I tend to lead off with Trick arrow, for the reason that tanks tend to spam their taunts right at the beginning.  Get trick arrow in there and it increases their taunts by 100% more.  From the way it reads, its a 30 second duration skill that everything within 30 seconds tends to generate 100% more hate towards the mob.  If i am reading it correctly it doesn't take what hate is there and double it, it just doubles what comes after it.  So be a lil patient, within about 5-6 seconds of using it the tank should have most of his aggro in.  /useability Sharp Shot /useability Evade /useability Culling the Herd When those are done running do this next, /toggleautoattack /useability Surveil /useability Hidden Shot By this time you're Sharp Shot and Evade should be back up.  You just reduced your aggro by a significant amount. Play smart and you don't have to worry about it.  But like back in EQ1 I'm gonna tell ya the same thing we used to tell the mages/wizards, if you spam your nukes right out the door, yes, the mob is REALLY going to hate you.  But play it smart, be a little bit patient and you'll still keep your DPS up without causing problems for your tank.  And if you pull aggro, switch to defensive stance, and turn attack off.
__________________
The_Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2005, 05:21 PM   #18
Lesca

Loremaster
Lesca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 191
Default

I seem to also be able to pull aggro at will, except with a pally being MT  - the one i run with puts his hate stealer spell on me and i can unload from pull to dead, hard as i want and i can't get aggro.  Zerks, Guards, Monks etc?  I gotta play it slow, with evasion tactics etc and still sometimes manage to get aggro on occasion, though we're getting better at walking the line the more we play.
 
I concur. My regular partner is a Paladin, and he very very rarely loses aggro to me, a combination of the Redemption line that pulls 38% of my aggro to him and that fact that he knows what he's doing. SMILEY The pair of us were taking on the heroics in SS the other day without me getting hit once. A few hairy moments when he kept getting interrupted all the time, couldn't get off a heal and his health dipped into the red, but he was able to get and hold the mobs attention while I pummelled it into a sticky mess. Then he threatened to pull Terrorantula...
 
Some tanks seem to just spam all their buttons and expect everything to work out fine for them while they watch TV, and that's just not going to cut it. Generally though it's simply a matter of getting to grips with which attacks will generate a large amount of aggro, and using your Surveil and Evade techniques whenever they're available to you. Since we have a lot of stealth attacks anyway, Surveil gets used regularly regardless. Upgrade them as soon as you can, because that'll help. And really the best advice is just to be sensible. SMILEY
__________________
Lesca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2005, 08:26 PM   #19
Halade

General
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 68
Default

Having been on both sides of this, I think that player skill is a bigger factor post LU13 than it was before, not as easy to hold aggro and it's a lot easier to steal it. So...... responsible tanking is just as important as responsible DPS, tanks need all thier abilities to keep aggro, and we need to use our deaggro abilities to keep from pulling aggro.  Definately not the tanks fault if we use our high damage attacks back to back and pull aggro, as a tank we can't always compete with +4k total damage (and sometimes more!!!!) handed out in about 5 seconds by a single player.  When I DPS i use the evade line every 4-5 CA's with surveil line to initiate stealth attacks, seems to be sufficient for not pulling aggro.  I also save my high damage attacks for the middle of the fight... it's much cooler to have a mob yellow or orange, then red (or dead) after you back off an unleash a massive damage CA..... especially since that's when people really notice how much damage you just did.

__________________
Marrick 50 Guardian / 61 Weaponsmith
Martick 64 Ranger / 51 Provisioner
Marikk 44 zerker / Hegrith 44 mystic
Kithicor
RIP Neriak
Halade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2005, 12:31 AM   #20
GrayStorm

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 155
Default

...something else I learned last night, when we killed Broog.  Don't assume that just because there are several higher level dps classes in your raid party, that you can just unleash hell on the mob.  They are all holding back too, and the mob will certainly stop and take the time to put your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in check.
 
In hopes of keeping aggro off of me better in the future, I'm now looking for Adept III or Master for my Evasion, Trick Arrow (whatever it's called now), and Surveil. 

Message Edited by GrayStorm on 10-10-2005 01:33 PM

__________________
Kyudoka
Red Rum


Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. -- HL Mencken.
GrayStorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:50 AM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.