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Old 08-24-2012, 11:50 AM   #31
Tantrasil

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I think its fine if a healer can heal through t1 dps. At the same time though which healers are they going ti cgange to t2 heals? If they change all healers being able to heal through one t1 dps then t2 dps should be changed to t1 damage right? Eh either way ill still be killing people, the heal change this week didnt help you guys as much as i thought it would.

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Old 08-24-2012, 12:34 PM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.

If for example a templar has the following passive procs -

Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)

Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)

Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)

Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)

The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.

Do you realize those particular procs come from very old gear and anyone equiping them would be reducing their overall stats and maximum healing potential. She was sacrificing the ability to heal others in exchange for self survivablity. She may be harder to kill but she will be healing for less than she would be able to otherwise especially healing other members in the group. It is a valid trade off. She is the healer equivilent of a fully defensive equiped tank. The proper tactic to counter this type of templar is to take advantage of the reduced healing and kill the squishies first such as scouts, mages, and other healers or even kill the tank first. The only reason this can be a bit too much of a problem is your tactics of always trying to kill the healer first won't always work.

In the words of Vallon Zek "Strategy without tactics is the quickest path to defeat."

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Old 08-24-2012, 01:08 PM   #33
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Novusod wrote:

Do you realize those particular procs come from very old gear and anyone equiping them would be reducing their overall stats and maximum healing potential. She was sacrificing the ability to heal others in exchange for self survivablity. She may be harder to kill but she will be healing for less than she would be able to otherwise especially healing other members in the group.

If there wasn't such a low soft cap on crit bonus and potency then you might have had a valid point there.

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Old 08-24-2012, 01:47 PM   #34
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[email protected] wrote:

Novusod wrote:

Do you realize those particular procs come from very old gear and anyone equiping them would be reducing their overall stats and maximum healing potential. She was sacrificing the ability to heal others in exchange for self survivablity. She may be harder to kill but she will be healing for less than she would be able to otherwise especially healing other members in the group.

If there wasn't such a low soft cap on crit bonus and potency then you might have had a valid point there.

The point is still valid if you are using a kill the healer first strategy. I watched you PvP all night and it was your tactics that cost you wins not stoneskin mechanics. In the fights my team did lose the templar died last.

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Old 08-24-2012, 02:30 PM   #35
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Novusod wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Novusod wrote:

Do you realize those particular procs come from very old gear and anyone equiping them would be reducing their overall stats and maximum healing potential. She was sacrificing the ability to heal others in exchange for self survivablity. She may be harder to kill but she will be healing for less than she would be able to otherwise especially healing other members in the group.

If there wasn't such a low soft cap on crit bonus and potency then you might have had a valid point there.

The point is still valid if you are using a kill the healer first strategy. I watched you PvP all night and it was your tactics that cost you wins not stoneskin mechanics. In the fights my team did lose the templar died last.

Eh?  You made two points, i'm disagreeing with one of them, which is not valid.

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Old 08-24-2012, 02:58 PM   #36
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the strategy changes with different set ups.   sometimes killing healers first leaves the rest of the bunch dead on their feet sometimes killing dps turns the group into a soft marshmallow you can trample over easy and yet other times you're better off running the tank off somewhere far away.   

  healers don't need a bigger boost than this imo.  i already have to unload a substantial amount of damage on healers to get them dead (sometimes topping parse on one person lol).    chanters need something cool imo now

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Old 08-24-2012, 03:24 PM   #37
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[email protected] wrote:

Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.

If for example a templar has the following passive procs -

Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)

Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)

Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)

Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)

The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.

I find this post particularly funny in a way, because it is one person calling out the gear of a single other person because they feel that it is too hard to kill them. Anyone who has watched nerf this persons stuff threads in pvp over the years, it is almost exclusively some dps calling some healer out for a nerf since forever.

The reality is that outside of control effect immunity items, about half of all RoK, ToS, and SF procs still work in pvp combat. There are probally even some EoF items that still work and are worth using, I also know that there are even some items from PoW that work in pvp combat, also even useful items from orgingal tier 5 content that still give an edge in pvp.

If you REALLY cared about pve items working in pvp, you would have mentioned any number of items in your list, instead of just one healers gear, that at best gives them a very small edge over some other players.

All this isn't to say that the people in charge of pvp combat, wouldn't like it if every pve proc in the game didn't work in pvp, and they had a completely clean stale environment to base pvp balance on. All the proof you need of this is to watch over time as more and more pve procs continued to get silently nerfed in pvp combat.

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Old 08-24-2012, 03:35 PM   #38
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Hennyo wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.

If for example a templar has the following passive procs -

Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)

Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)

Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)

Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)

The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.

I find this post particularly funny in a way, because it is one person calling out the gear of a single other person because they feel that it is too hard to kill them. Anyone who has watched nerf this persons stuff threads in pvp over the years, it is almost exclusively some dps calling some healer out for a nerf since forever.

Except no, its entirely not about me calling out the gear of a single other person, the single other person was just an example.

The reality is that outside of control effect immunity items, about half of all RoK, ToS, and SF procs still work in pvp combat. There are probally even some EoF items that still work and are worth using, I also know that there are even some items from PoW that work in pvp combat, also even useful items from orgingal tier 5 content that still give an edge in pvp.

If you REALLY cared about pve items working in pvp, you would have mentioned any number of items in your list, instead of just one healers gear, that at best gives them a very small edge over some other players.

Yes the procs I mentioned were all on one char, but I have no problem with that char at all.   That's more because i'm lazy and not going to search out every single proc out there as opposed to just listing examples off one char I inspected earlier.  As to the small edge part, sure, but the buff to priest healing means in my opinion (rightly or wrongly) that a priest can be put too far ahead of the curve.

All this isn't to say that the people in charge of pvp combat, wouldn't like it if every pve proc in the game didn't work in pvp, and they had a completely clean stale environment to base pvp balance on. All the proof you need of this is to watch over time as more and more pve procs continued to get silently nerfed in pvp combat.

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Old 08-24-2012, 05:36 PM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.

If for example a templar has the following passive procs -

Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)

Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)

Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)

Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)

The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.

I use the blackstone shield and dispacement ring on my mystic. Since there is a soft cap on stats I really do not miss out on the potency and cb I lose from switching to lower tier items.  The stone skin is nice and the displacement proc keep me full on power. 

On another note, rogues and assassins are just ridiculous. For some reason rogues are able to chain stun me more than a chanter while dispelling everything and hitting you for a ton of dmg. As for assassins, it seems like soe nerfed everones stifle except for thiers. Im usually dead or very close before it wears off.

Its not really hard to heal through a mage's dps due to their cast time vs scouts.

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Old 08-24-2012, 05:49 PM   #40
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Rynir wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.

If for example a templar has the following passive procs -

Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)

Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)

Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)

Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)

The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.

I use the blackstone shield and dispacement ring on my mystic. Since there is a soft cap on stats I really do not miss out on the potency and cb I lose from switching to lower tier items.  The stone skin is nice and the displacement proc keep me full on power. 

On another note, rogues and assassins are just ridiculous. For some reason rogues are able to chain stun me more than a chanter while dispelling everything and hitting you for a ton of dmg. As for assassins, it seems like soe nerfed everones stifle except for thiers. Im usually dead or very close before it wears off.

Its not really hard to heal through a mage's dps due to their cast time vs scouts.

  you've been lucky.

 my mages can deal out as much death as my scouts if not more.     the problem is that most mages play their class to top parses not tactical kills.

  melee scouts should have some sort of advantage since they have to be in melee range and thus with in reach of every singe aoe taunt/damage/CC.

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Old 08-24-2012, 05:56 PM   #41
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[email protected] wrote:

Hennyo wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.

If for example a templar has the following passive procs -

Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)

Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)

Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)

Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)

The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.

I find this post particularly funny in a way, because it is one person calling out the gear of a single other person because they feel that it is too hard to kill them. Anyone who has watched nerf this persons stuff threads in pvp over the years, it is almost exclusively some dps calling some healer out for a nerf since forever.

Except no, its entirely not about me calling out the gear of a single other person, the single other person was just an example.

The reality is that outside of control effect immunity items, about half of all RoK, ToS, and SF procs still work in pvp combat. There are probally even some EoF items that still work and are worth using, I also know that there are even some items from PoW that work in pvp combat, also even useful items from orgingal tier 5 content that still give an edge in pvp.

If you REALLY cared about pve items working in pvp, you would have mentioned any number of items in your list, instead of just one healers gear, that at best gives them a very small edge over some other players.

Yes the procs I mentioned were all on one char, but I have no problem with that char at all.   That's more because i'm lazy and not going to search out every single proc out there as opposed to just listing examples off one char I inspected earlier.  As to the small edge part, sure, but the buff to priest healing means in my opinion (rightly or wrongly) that a priest can be put too far ahead of the curve.

All this isn't to say that the people in charge of pvp combat, wouldn't like it if every pve proc in the game didn't work in pvp, and they had a completely clean stale environment to base pvp balance on. All the proof you need of this is to watch over time as more and more pve procs continued to get silently nerfed in pvp combat.

Yawn...yet another dps class trying to get more healer nerfs cause a smart healer situationally geared up for enhanced pvp survivability...I do tire of these poorly thought out ill concieved ideas...we already have some mental giants on various pvp threads calling for either the outright removal of healer in combat rezes or place them on long reuse timers shortest one I saw was 30 mins.  You name it people moan about it from the crying about pve procs (which never were the true problem in pvp it was set bonus stats and the stat inflation that were unchanged in pvp) to healers cure too many dets with their cures (the fact that once dets are cleared they are basically replaced within a matter of 1 or 2 secs...and theres a limit we can clear which was nerfed due to these types of nerf calls...but it does make it easier for the poorer pvpers out there to try and kill a group...lulz).

But hey its all good keep asking for more nerfs against healers...the pool of good pvp healers is slowly dwindling and overall healers will follow suit as they stop playing their healers due to the veruca salt like cries for more nerfs against us.

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Old 08-24-2012, 09:48 PM   #42
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Gotta love how all the procs rates you listed are the moded versions.

Nice to see instead of dispelling Divine Aura off me last night, you were inspecting to me to make this list. So constuctive! I love how you made no mention of my actual pvp gear.

Funny how a few matches prior i got owned by a Swashy, simply put~ You have to change your tatics. As a swashy you have the tools to do so, there are no excuses.

Putting the blame on procs~ Some of which have been in PvP as early as RoK is not a validated reason not to kill someone, more so considering that most healers in pvp are wearing similar items.

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Old 08-25-2012, 01:35 AM   #43
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Dahmer wrote:

Gotta love how all the procs rates you listed are the moded versions.

Nice to see instead of dispelling Divine Aura off me last night, you were inspecting to me to make this list. So constuctive! I love how you made no mention of my actual pvp gear.

Funny how a few matches prior i got owned by a Swashy, simply put~ You have to change your tatics. As a swashy you have the tools to do so, there are no excuses.

Putting the blame on procs~ Some of which have been in PvP as early as RoK is not a validated reason not to kill someone, more so considering that most healers in pvp are wearing similar items.

Spot on assessment...as such for pointing out the truth you have been sentenced to a firing squad at dawn...theres good and theres bad...the bad is its all templars the good is its blaze of faith ...lulz

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Old 08-25-2012, 07:02 AM   #44
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Dahmer wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Tantrasil wrote:

I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.

The problem I think is mostly from some priest gear procs that in my opinion are just too overpowered - transposition comes to mind for one, but there are others I just don't recall the names of atm.

If you had someone like, for the sake of argument, Unrest.Amyee, grouped with a bard or conjuror they'd probably stoneskin half the attacks (or it would at least seem like that).

I can assure you that it's not Transposition.

Have you ever taken into consideration that the indivdual is a Cleric~ Divine Aura is a easily dispelable temp stonskin buff. Also Templars have Unyielding Benidiction.

cleric's isn't, crusader's is

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