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Old 08-21-2012, 02:01 AM   #1
Lethlian

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PVP UPDATES

General

Critbonus is now slightly less effective in PVP combat.

 

 

Okay so it wasn't bad enough that healers and casters are already favored by the far superior conversion that PVP potency is over PVP crit bonus, but now with tomorrows update your going to increase all healers, heals again and then nerf Crit Bonus?

 

Seriously what are you doing?, you just nullified the past update that made healers more killable to now lowering all crit bonus driven classes (tanks / scouts) and increaseing heals? Sweet now its back to taking 6 to 12 toons to kill a healer again. Have you even been looking at the parse healers are throwing up right now with the current so called nerf? its still ridiculously common to see healers with 3 to 8 mil heal parses and the highest dpser(s) being 2 to 6 mil (which are more far and few inbetween compared to healers btw)

 

Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.

 

If anything you needed to increase the crit bonus conversion.

 

Whatever guys GG

 

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Old 08-21-2012, 03:18 AM   #2
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Well if it makes you feel any better the are lowering Spiritual Leadership in Shamans which will have quite an impact. Have no fear im sure they will bring out the nerf bat to healers again, then you wont see them at all in bgs. Wont that be fun?

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Old 08-21-2012, 11:21 AM   #3
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Yeah im disappointed in what they listened to from other players. They didnt just increase the heals for priests by the way. Good luck trying to kill anyone as a swash/brig, even guards and zerks got a dmg increase. Lets see how many people stop playing after this update.

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Old 08-21-2012, 11:35 AM   #4
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Tantrasil wrote:

Yeah im disappointed in what they listened to from other players. They didnt just increase the heals for priests by the way. Good luck trying to kill anyone as a swash/brig, even guards and zerks got a dmg increase. Lets see how many people stop playing after this update.

Must admit the berserker thing was a surprise to me, they never really struck me as being in need of more damage at all.

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Old 08-21-2012, 12:01 PM   #5
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We wont know the damage until people actually play. Unfortunately i cant today so keep me updated on how bad it is. They boosted heals on classes i didnt even know had heals. Shows how bad i am hahaha

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Old 08-21-2012, 01:59 PM   #6
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Lethlian wrote:

 

 

Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.

 

Lethlian

Seriously?  What game have you been playing?  Scouts are so OP now they 1-shot the whole zone.  All game parses you can see a BL, Ranger, Assassin easily have 45+ kill shots with non-scout classes far below that mark.  The game is so unenjoyable after these updates for every class except scout.  I hate playing my healer, tank or mages in BG now.  Thanks SOE for once again breaking BG and killing the game.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:32 PM   #7
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Reading the latest couple updates i get a weird feeling....are they just randomly changing stats and mechanics without any idea why ?

Boost CA dmg of some mellee classes, and then nerf CB.

Tbh im not worried about autoattack hits lately, but the fact scout CA's really hurt bad, and coupled with the stun/stifle/daze etc CC-arsenal many have, and AE autoattack still having full effect in pvp, you end up seing Beastlords annihilate half a grp in 3 sec and 4 CA's.or swashies or brigs

cheap shot - dispatch - cornered - double up = dead target

But at 92 things are at least somewhat balanced, while the 30-89 BG's are a complete mess and scouts are without question dominating the dps output over casters. With the infamous enfant terrible Beastlord. Just outright overpowered.

Maybe in full T3 pvp gear things even out more. altho if everyone get 20% dmg/heal boost from lethality and 20% more protection from toughness, aren't we back at Start and can just stay in PVE gear ? Or are the blue adorns seriously supposed to bring some dynamic into the whole issue ? Not like i ever felt like coughing up 500 (!!) tokens for one adorns that might just improve my overall performance by...what... 0.1% ?

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:33 PM   #8
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Did you even read the patchnotes? Also dont say all scouts because brigands and swashbucklers actually have to melee unlike the others. 75% of the time its almost insta-death from ranged classes. Then on some casters we finally get close and they dodge/parry/miss for most attacks and get blown up.MageLady wrote:

Lethlian wrote:

 

 

Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.

 

Lethlian

Seriously?  What game have you been playing?  Scouts are so OP now they 1-shot the whole zone.  All game parses you can see a BL, Ranger, Assassin easily have 45+ kill shots with non-scout classes far below that mark.  The game is so unenjoyable after these updates for every class except scout.  I hate playing my healer, tank or mages in BG now.  Thanks SOE for once again breaking BG and killing the game.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:42 PM   #9
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Tantrasil wrote:

Did you even read the patchnotes? Also dont say all scouts because brigands and swashbucklers actually have to melee unlike the others. 75% of the time its almost insta-death from ranged classes. Then on some casters we finally get close and they dodge/parry/miss for most attacks and get blown up.MageLady wrote:

Lethlian wrote:

 

 

Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.

 

Lethlian

Seriously?  What game have you been playing?  Scouts are so OP now they 1-shot the whole zone.  All game parses you can see a BL, Ranger, Assassin easily have 45+ kill shots with non-scout classes far below that mark.  The game is so unenjoyable after these updates for every class except scout.  I hate playing my healer, tank or mages in BG now.  Thanks SOE for once again breaking BG and killing the game.

lol, you beat me to it.  Rogues are absolutely not comparable to predators right now, and thats before you even get to bards.

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Old 08-21-2012, 04:21 PM   #10
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Tantrasil wrote:

Yeah im disappointed in what they listened to from other players. They didnt just increase the heals for priests by the way. Good luck trying to kill anyone as a swash/brig, even guards and zerks got a dmg increase. Lets see how many people stop playing after this update.

Whatever.

Move healer or tank away from each other, and they die.  The only time healers are hard to kill is when you can't keep a target on them.

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Old 08-21-2012, 04:50 PM   #11
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Lethlian wrote:

 

PVP UPDATES

General

Critbonus is now slightly less effective in PVP combat.

 

 

Think we need to review our adverbs.  A 1/3 reduction is a lot more significant of a hit than slightly would suggest.  I don't understand this move.

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Old 08-21-2012, 05:05 PM   #12
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Yes, really.  Apparently.

 

Wouldn't a decrease of CB reduce the ranged one/two shots a bit?  Well, not from sorcs, of course.

And to the earlier post about scouts fighting out of paper bags ... in BG, doesn't "Scout" = "Predator"?  You really don't see too many non-Predator Scouts in the BGs.  Yes, that's a joke, but so is the comparative effectiveness of certain classes--from a strict "killing people" point of view/straight DPS.

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Old 08-21-2012, 05:28 PM   #13
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To be honest, if shadowstep+assassinatex2 from an assassin doesn't kill me right off, they give me a lot less trouble than brigs/swashies. Rangers seem to do good sustained dps, but really don't burn me down like the rogues. Healing through someone hitting you is easy, healing through a good debuff class that can chain stun/stifle/daze/knockback you is annoying as all get out. Damage output from both scouts and mages seems comparable when they are equally geared and skilled. The healing buff was nice for furies, at least...I'm sorry, but we're by far the squishiest healer in bgs atm. And at 300 cb, I'm only at 29% cb in bgs anyways...if you lower that by a third, onoez, 20% cb, which still isn't much of anything. I know this, when everyone is equally griping, it usually means things are a challenge for everyone. From the standpoint of a healer watching and trying to keep others alive in bg matches, Sorcerors are the most annoying dps class to kill because you essentially kill them twice to get them dead. I'm guessing everyone here is mad because they aren't 100% unstoppable in matches, and can't gank away at will. Not really sure, but things are actually getting closer and closer to balance...except zerkers now being a bit OP tbh. they are already hard to kill usually, unless a sorceror gets in a couple of lucky uninterrupted hits.

Atan has the best point so far, btw. I can heal for millions with a good tank keeping things from killing me, and dpsers killing off ranged dps before they can get me down, but take away all that, and any decent player that gets the jump on me can probably unload and kill me.

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Old 08-21-2012, 07:19 PM   #14
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You're all hanging/clinging on to autoattack stats.  Let go of Crit Bonus and focus on potency/STR/AGI/WIS/ability modifier to increase your Combat Abilities.  You'll only crit maybe 50% of the time anyway.  You all should desire a game that focuses on a player "taking action" to heal or damage another and not crave your auto attacking ability.... it's what ruined this PvP system to begin with.

Accept it's a better game without auto attack damage in PvP and get your combat abilities increased.  This is what the original game thru EoF was built around and it was great!

Devs are listening and will adjust combat abilities and spells if they agree.  They're increasing and decreasing them in hopes of balance.  Just keep working with them.. I mean him.

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Old 08-21-2012, 07:40 PM   #15
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[email protected] wrote:

You're all hanging/clinging on to autoattack stats.  Let go of Crit Bonus and focus on potency/STR/AGI/WIS/ability modifier to increase your Combat Abilities.  You'll only crit maybe 50% of the time anyway.  You all should desire a game that focuses on a player "taking action" to heal or damage another and not crave your auto attacking ability.... it's what ruined this PvP system to begin with.

Accept it's a better game without auto attack damage in PvP and get your combat abilities increased.  This is what the original game thru EoF was built around and it was great!

Devs are listening and will adjust combat abilities and spells if they agree.  They're increasing and decreasing them in hopes of balance.  Just keep working with them.. I mean him.

All he has to do is fix the broken swashbuckler abilities and everything will be fine and dandy.

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:07 PM   #16
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MageLady wrote:

Lethlian wrote:

 

 

Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.

 

Lethlian

Seriously?  What game have you been playing?  Scouts are so OP now they 1-shot the whole zone.  All game parses you can see a BL, Ranger, Assassin easily have 45+ kill shots with non-scout classes far below that mark.  The game is so unenjoyable after these updates for every class except scout.  I hate playing my healer, tank or mages in BG now.  Thanks SOE for once again breaking BG and killing the game.

My *grievance* wasn't about my ability to NOT 1 - shot the whole zone, nor gank at will, nor be unstop-able. I'm basing my objection on my observations from what I"ve seen prior to this update and now presently with it in game in regards to averages of parses amongst casters and melee. The majority of the time the higher tier dpser(s) in bgs are the casters (albiet there are a few resourceful scouts who can compete) but I'm more concened about averages (consistency), because averages are what end up being the tall tale to how the game is actually working.

Now looking back at it, I do realize that I failed to mention that my TS post was based upon being level 92 PVP. So I can't speak for that 30 to 89 bracket...

Also to be noted I"m not concerned about auto attack stats...why people are assuming this when I clearly did not bring it up is beyond me. I'm concerned about CB because it does in fact have allot to do with my CA's hitting when they do crit. Now I know it seems some scout classes are more capable of bigger hits based off of CA's (but you have to account that those hits come from having to engage in a uninterrupted chain to complete)... but when you included swashbucklers, brigands, dirges, and troubadors they do not have any terribly big hitting CA's or combinations...even Assassins CA's are low and I haven't noticed many Sins doing all that great...Of course I'm stating all this based on my observations, you peeps need to calm down about my statements seemingly being law.

Crit Bonus may not neccesarily be as of a big deal for casters, but for all scouts its an absolute must based on how present tense game mechanics work in everquest 2.

My two cents.

Respectfully,

Lethlian

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Old 08-22-2012, 12:05 PM   #17
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Healers need to be able to heal the oppositions damage. Considering each group should have 1 or 2 healers, a adequately equipped healer should have an equal chance to heal damage from an adequately equipped group of 3 to 5 people. This should be the absolute limit to healing though... And the truth is, if a group cant kill their opponent, it comes down to a couple factors, not the strength of healers individually...

You suck... either your gear is not adequate to beat the healer in question, or your skill is not adequate. Learn to play, you arent going to dps a healer down without 3 to 4 people. Thats how it should be, if not one of you is smart enough to get past their temp defenses, and interrupt/stifle/stun them down, then you lose.

And potentially, if you cant kill your opponent, lets not forget the groups are currently unbalanced. 3 healers in a group shouldnt happen... 4 is rediculous. Dont vote to nerf healers because something else is broken.

The healer changes were positive in my opinion... man up and play skillfully, stop trying to dps burn your healers and do it right.

The nerf on healers had them quitting. Why? Because why play a healer when your heals arent adequate?

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Old 08-22-2012, 03:45 PM   #18
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I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.

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Old 08-22-2012, 04:29 PM   #19
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There's a lot of discussion about one thing or the other that I don't really have good responses or good comments on, but there is one extremely important thing that I feel is being overlooked in this discussion.

Stats such as crit bonus or any other statistic that scales a lot based on your character's level or gear amount should have a somewhat lesser effect in BGs because the level range is so wide in the lower BGs and the quality of gear disparity is quite large at 92.  You could make an argument that level 92 characters without the proper gear don't belong in 92 BGs, but when level 30s with barely any crit, let alone crit bonus, are competing with level 80+ characters with great stats, the stats need to have a lesser impact to keep pvp more skill based as is intented by the Devs.

Once the balance is found within these overall stats, then the focus becomes on adjusting class or archetype balance issues, but the first step is ultimately appropriately balancing stats.

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Old 08-22-2012, 05:25 PM   #20
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i've all ready made peace with the fact that casters will do more damage than my melee.   i try to play to my strengths and don't really care about damage anymore.

healing seems to be ok right now but i do agree that if healers get much better than the tanks role will be meaningless with a good healer.   guess he could go reckless..  lol

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Old 08-23-2012, 01:25 AM   #21
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I completely agree that tanks need to be relevant, but to say that healers should be irrelevant so that tanks can have a job is not a trade I am willing to make. The healer population took a dive after the nerf to healers... for a good reason.

I consider myself a solid healer with raid gear, but with the nerf I was struggling to remain faithful to the class. I have an Illusionist I was prepping to play full time. I am not a band wagon player, I have been playing my Inquis for a long time; But I want to be an effective healer in BG, and I was struggling to find that.

Even with this new fix, my heal parses have gone up 20% AT BEST. At the worst of times I am still dropping as if the fix never happened, in the best of times I can actually throw an offensive spell and debuff while keeping up heals. To be perfectly honest, not every BG is evenly matched. I just matched up against the opposition and got smeared across Ganak... my wife was the only tank, and she couldnt keep them off of me. That alone is a testament to the fact that healers do not obsolete tanks... healers need to be able to heal effectively, otherwise we just wont play.

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Old 08-23-2012, 10:56 AM   #22
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Kode Black wrote:

Healers need to be able to heal the oppositions damage. Considering each group should have 1 or 2 healers, a adequately equipped healer should have an equal chance to heal damage from an adequately equipped group of 3 to 5 people.

I have seen this argument countless times and it is still completely wrong, no matter how many times you repeat. A healer shouldn't be able to outheal the dps of 2 dps classes. Ever. 2 dps classes on a healer = dead healer. A healer should be able to heal through 2 dps classes with a support of a tank that will taunt them off the healer and use their own temps to help the team survive through bursts as well. If you think 1 healer should be able to survive 3-5 people then a team with 2 healers could survive 6-10 people and if you add a tank that will get the dps off the healers you'd get to the situation where you need a full x4 to kill 1 tank and 2 healers. In a perfect world an equally geared  healer can heal for the amount a t1 dps class can dish out as dps. And then it comes down to who can time their bursts/emergency heals perfectly to see if the healer or the dps would win the fight 1v1. If you balance it like that then a group with 2 healers and a good tank would be able to survive a lot, but not indefinitely.

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Old 08-23-2012, 11:33 AM   #23
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There will always be a differing opinion on the matter... some folks believe this is a first person shooter, and as such there is no place for a healer... thats fine, I dont think the devs agree, and their opinion seems to be the one that matters.

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Old 08-23-2012, 11:36 AM   #24
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Lethlian wrote:

Also to be noted I"m not concerned about auto attack stats...why people are assuming this when I clearly did not bring it up is beyond me. I'm concerned about CB because it does in fact have allot to do with my CA's hitting when they do crit. Now I know it seems some scout classes are more capable of bigger hits based off of CA's (but you have to account that those hits come from having to engage in a uninterrupted chain to complete)... but when you included swashbucklers, brigands, dirges, and troubadors they do not have any terribly big hitting CA's or combinations...even Assassins CA's are low and I haven't noticed many Sins doing all that great...Of course I'm stating all this based on my observations, you peeps need to calm down about my statements seemingly being law.

Crit bonus is important to casters too. Equally important as it is to melee if you don't take into consideration auto-attack. That's why people are assuming you're upset b/c auto-attack will be less effective. 

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Old 08-23-2012, 02:42 PM   #25
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Tantrasil wrote:

I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.

The problem I think is mostly from some priest gear procs that in my opinion are just too overpowered - transposition comes to mind for one, but there are others I just don't recall the names of atm.

If you had someone like, for the sake of argument, Unrest.Amyee, grouped with a bard or conjuror they'd probably stoneskin half the attacks (or it would at least seem like that).

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Old 08-23-2012, 03:23 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

Tantrasil wrote:

I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.

The problem I think is mostly from some priest gear procs that in my opinion are just too overpowered - transposition comes to mind for one, but there are others I just don't recall the names of atm.

If you had someone like, for the sake of argument, Unrest.Amyee, grouped with a bard or conjuror they'd probably stoneskin half the attacks (or it would at least seem like that).

I can assure you that it's not Transposition.

Have you ever taken into consideration that the indivdual is a Cleric~ Divine Aura is a easily dispelable temp stonskin buff. Also Templars have Unyielding Benidiction.

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Old 08-23-2012, 03:42 PM   #27
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Dahmer wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Tantrasil wrote:

I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.

The problem I think is mostly from some priest gear procs that in my opinion are just too overpowered - transposition comes to mind for one, but there are others I just don't recall the names of atm.

If you had someone like, for the sake of argument, Unrest.Amyee, grouped with a bard or conjuror they'd probably stoneskin half the attacks (or it would at least seem like that).

I can assure you that it's not Transposition.

Have you ever taken into consideration that the indivdual is a Cleric~ Divine Aura is a easily dispelable temp stonskin buff. Also Templars have Unyielding Benidiction.

It isn't DA.  I wont pretend i'm an expert on templars, generally speaking from my experience of them they are one of the harder priests to kill, but Amyee takes that to a whole new level.  And btw without using any of the new pvp stuff for what that's worth.

Of course, I'm going to be biased against stoneskins anyway as it is one of the many things that can screw over dance of metal.

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Old 08-23-2012, 05:28 PM   #28
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Stoneskin procs are hit or miss. Sometimes they can seem OP. Sometimes they are completely absent. I melt pretty quickly to you Delethen without a healer.

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Old 08-23-2012, 07:03 PM   #29
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lol

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Old 08-24-2012, 03:58 AM   #30
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Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.

If for example a templar has the following passive procs -

Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)

Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)

Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)

Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)

The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.

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