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Old 08-11-2012, 06:33 AM   #61
BChizzle

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Novusod wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wow just wow.. You think every other class doesnt have to deal with the on melee or the on avoid damage?? Ill give you a hint that im sure you knew being the tanking guru you clearly are.. The avoid one? doesnt hit for as much and the on hit one? doesnt hit for much now either.. GL with tanking on a zerker tho, clearly that will solve all your tanking problems.. Im surprised all the other end game raiding zerkers arent doing as well as the brawlers are, oh wait, im not surprised..

Whats hilarious is you are talking about how you are going to switch to your zerker (lol) because your bruiser is so bad (lol) when like cory said the xpac was just cleared using 2 bruisers... You cant make this stuff up man.

That is not true. Goreslaughter's on hit damage for my bruiser was between 16k to 18k while the on avoid damage was between 30k and 38k. Guess which one was killing me faster. Bruiser is pretty much junk tank while taking that kind of damage.

Also the Mythical Shield on Eq2wire is reading as level 92 with 2230 protection and there are atleast 15 of them floating around. Probably are 100s of them considering they drop from Sky Shrine instance that can be farmed every 90 minutes. So lets stop with lying about shield level lets get back on topic of plate tanks having more avoidance than brawlers.

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Avoidance reports or it didn't happen.

I will get you an avoidance report as soon as I am done farming my own mythical shield.

Let me get this straight.  You cry how immunity to strikethrough removal has ruined brawler tanking because we now avoid less, but then you admit it is better to avoid less as you take lesser damage from getting hit.  Then you are complaining that plates get more avoidance yet you ignore the fact that you just pointed out it is better not to avoid anyways.

Obano the reason why brawlers with knowledge weren't crying the way you were about these changes is because we grasp the basic simple knowledge you just can't seem to get your mind around.  They weren't that bad of changes.

I will admit that as itemization increases on shields it gives plates a distinctive advantage when it comes to base block which is absolutely unfair and unbalancing.  In fact I pointed it out weeks before you and basically you are just repeating my observations on it.  However, the sky isn't falling yet and since block caps at 70% anyways it really will never be a major issue, just a minor one.

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Old 08-11-2012, 07:26 AM   #62
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Well... that's exactly how it works. Haven't you ever looked at the percent mitigation you get on a piece of gear? It says right on the gear how much you get and as you level up, it goes down. Ever looked at your block chance after you level up? I have some bad news for ya... it goes down.

If you take what tooltips say as literal, then you have to say physical mitigation is contested with opponent's level.

Because tooltips clearly say "You will absorb X % of the damage from your level's opponent" or "Absorbs X % vs. your level".

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Old 08-11-2012, 10:36 AM   #63
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I've been saying for years that EQ2's avoidance mechanics are a nonsensical mess. The devs keep raising the average level of MOBs we fight and granting them progressively more powerful buff packages, which has pretty much negated contested avoidance rolls. This means that characters are forced to rely almost exclusively on uncontested block, which the devs really don't have an effective means of manipulating. This lead to such imbecilic mechanics as strikethrough and avoidance-triggered damage procs. There isn't much they can do to control avoidance via itemization, either, since the only stat that's relevant to every fighter class is +block.

Really, I think the only way to actually solve the problem would be to completely eliminate the concept of uncontested avoidance (except on short duration temps) and try to rebalance contested avoidance skills so that they serve a relevant purpose in all content. Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in SOE's ability to succeed with such a revamp.

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Old 08-11-2012, 12:48 PM   #64
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EverDog wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Well... that's exactly how it works. Haven't you ever looked at the percent mitigation you get on a piece of gear? It says right on the gear how much you get and as you level up, it goes down. Ever looked at your block chance after you level up? I have some bad news for ya... it goes down.

If you take what tooltips say as literal, then you have to say physical mitigation is contested with opponent's level.

Because tooltips clearly say "You will absorb X % of the damage from your level's opponent" or "Absorbs X % vs. your level".

Why would you think mitigation is contested because of the armor text... the mob doesn't make a roll against your mit to see how much damage you soak. But as you level up your mit and protection values are less effective for your level, which forces you to get new higher level gear which is the point of that mechanic

I don't know why this is so complicated or hard to grasp. What it comes down to is a level 25 guard can wear a BP that gives 4.6% mit vs lvl 25. Wear the same BP at 92 and it's going to say 0.1% mit vs lvl 92. Which makes sense... do you expect to wear level 25 gear and it do diddly fk at level 92? Do you think your feysteel tower shield giving 12% block at level 25 is still going to give your 12% block at level 92? No. Does a level 1 handcrafted shield that gives a level 1 60% block still give 60% block when you level up to 92? Of course not.

But this doesn't matter to the thread if the myth shield is 92.

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Old 08-11-2012, 08:24 PM   #65
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From Dev posts in the past and tests in game the way that Mit and Shield Protection works is as follows: 1st, Shield Protection - The Level of the Item Verses the level of the User. As the item becomes lower level from you the user its Protection become Diminished. the Level of the Mob you are fighting has nothing to do with this calculation. 2nd, Mitigation - the Level of the Armor Verses the Level of the Mob. In this calculation your level has nothing to do with this, neither does the mobs skill's. The Mitigation you see is what you will get against a lvl equivalent mob that is nether up^, or Down^. As a mob gains more ^^^ or becomes X4 it gains Less effectiveness. This is why a tank need around 15k Mitigation to get 75% Mit.
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:34 AM   #66
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Well, so long as shields and protections concerned, it seems that i have to prepare the white flag.

I made lvl2 zerker and watched if he can block vs. lvl85(x4) guardians in Neriak.

He still blocked about 20% of incoming melee attacks.

I have no idea why SOE made physical mitigation contested with Opponents level, but Shields and Protections contested with user's own level,not enemy's level.

Same opponents, same equipments, you hit next level then it decreases your uncontested block chance.

Anyway it seems that.

Thanks.

Also, because combats vs. red nameds are extraordinary,

I used my monk and guardian to see how much they can block vs. Ernax Heridion(lvl96x4).

But i couldnt get any solid data.

Ernax Heridion might have about 30% strikethrough because both fighter's actual block chances were too low compared to their uncontested block chances.

I will keep tests vs. orange nameds or yellow nameds when i have time though.

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Old 08-12-2012, 09:56 PM   #67
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BChizzle wrote:

Let me get this straight.  You cry how immunity to strikethrough removal has ruined brawler tanking because we now avoid less, but then you admit it is better to avoid less as you take lesser damage from getting hit.  Then you are complaining that plates get more avoidance yet you ignore the fact that you just pointed out it is better not to avoid anyways.

Obano the reason why brawlers with knowledge weren't crying the way you were about these changes is because we grasp the basic simple knowledge you just can't seem to get your mind around.  They weren't that bad of changes.

I will admit that as itemization increases on shields it gives plates a distinctive advantage when it comes to base block which is absolutely unfair and unbalancing.  In fact I pointed it out weeks before you and basically you are just repeating my observations on it.  However, the sky isn't falling yet and since block caps at 70% anyways it really will never be a major issue, just a minor one.

You are forgetting how mitigation figures into the survivability equation. If a brawler gets hit too many times they simply die from melee damage because of lack of mitigation. On certain bosses like Goreslaughter the avoid damage hits so hard it kills me. So it is either die to direct melee hits or die to avoid damage. It is not me trying to argue both ways that avoidance is good and bad. It is the way the mechanics work to put me in a lose lose situation.

Plate tanks can fall back on their mitigation while brawlers cannot. The reason other brawlers are not complaining yet is because they did most of their progression when brawlers were still very strong. It really sucks to be a brawler right now if you are still trying to break into hard content. I am very confident when the next round of new content comes out everyone will be using plate tanks and not the weakened state of brawlers.

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Old 08-13-2012, 12:04 AM   #68
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Novusod wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Let me get this straight.  You cry how immunity to strikethrough removal has ruined brawler tanking because we now avoid less, but then you admit it is better to avoid less as you take lesser damage from getting hit.  Then you are complaining that plates get more avoidance yet you ignore the fact that you just pointed out it is better not to avoid anyways.

Obano the reason why brawlers with knowledge weren't crying the way you were about these changes is because we grasp the basic simple knowledge you just can't seem to get your mind around.  They weren't that bad of changes.

I will admit that as itemization increases on shields it gives plates a distinctive advantage when it comes to base block which is absolutely unfair and unbalancing.  In fact I pointed it out weeks before you and basically you are just repeating my observations on it.  However, the sky isn't falling yet and since block caps at 70% anyways it really will never be a major issue, just a minor one.

You are forgetting how mitigation figures into the survivability equation. If a brawler gets hit too many times they simply die from melee damage because of lack of mitigation. On certain bosses like Goreslaughter the avoid damage hits so hard it kills me. So it is either die to direct melee hits or die to avoid damage. It is not me trying to argue both ways that avoidance is good and bad. It is the way the mechanics work to put me in a lose lose situation.

Plate tanks can fall back on their mitigation while brawlers cannot. The reason other brawlers are not complaining yet is because they did most of their progression when brawlers were still very strong. It really sucks to be a brawler right now if you are still trying to break into hard content. I am very confident when the next round of new content comes out everyone will be using plate tanks and not the weakened state of brawlers.

I am not forgetting anything, I already pointed out I am over 12k mit on raids thats before procs temps etc, there isn't a mit problem at all.

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Old 08-13-2012, 02:09 AM   #69
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The only problem I have as a bruiser is that mobs are dumb needing ACT for stoneskins because the avoidance proc effects eat through Stone Deaf. Which is totally dumb!

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Old 08-13-2012, 06:27 PM   #70
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Corydonn wrote:

The only problem I have as a bruiser is that mobs are dumb needing ACT for stoneskins because the avoidance proc effects eat through Stone Deaf. Which is totally dumb!

worse than that is the small 3k hits that will knock off a trigger of your stoneskin before the last 2 hits for 150k go thru.. Also love when people are charmed on tagrin and take off all my stoneskins right after the first 2 hits of the DT hit..

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Old 08-18-2012, 05:21 PM   #71
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do me a solid and unequip your offhand everytime you go defensive and get your free ~2200 protection.

then come complain about plate tanks getting 30 more than you (the few that are lucky enough to get the myth drop)

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Old 08-21-2012, 06:28 AM   #72
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[email protected] wrote:

do me a solid and unequip your offhand everytime you go defensive and get your free ~2200 protection.

then come complain about plate tanks getting 30 more than you (the few that are lucky enough to get the myth drop)

Do me a solid? English please, what are you talking about.

It you think Plate tanks can't get +block chance from their mainhand think again. There are several items like this that allow plate tanks to gain superior avoidance. Over powered plate tanks have it easy now. They get the best of both worlds best avoidance and high mitigation plus other tools to deal with unwardable on avoidance damage.

Tonight I watched under an geared Pally tank easily tank a named that was continuously one shotting me. Unballanced game is unballanced.

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Old 08-21-2012, 11:56 AM   #73
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Novusod wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

do me a solid and unequip your offhand everytime you go defensive and get your free ~2200 protection.

then come complain about plate tanks getting 30 more than you (the few that are lucky enough to get the myth drop)

Do me a solid? English please, what are you talking about.

It you think Plate tanks can't get +block chance from their mainhand think again. There are several items like this that allow plate tanks to gain superior avoidance. Over powered plate tanks have it easy now. They get the best of both worlds best avoidance and high mitigation plus other tools to deal with unwardable on avoidance damage.

Tonight I watched under an geared Pally tank easily tank a named that was continuously one shotting me. Unballanced game is unballanced.

What dident you understand what he just typed out? Was it really so hard? It got nothing to do with block chance on weapons. Plate tanks need to use a shield to gain block. All you are talking about atm is plate tanks having more avoidance.... Played right with both brawlers still have more. If not then pls post a few parses and we can all have a look at them. If a undergeared pally tank better than you i guess hes a much better tank than you are... Just saying. A guard might be more defensiv than you are atm that i can agree with. but they should aswell... Since they trade off both dps aoe hate and usefull utility to do so. Brawlers can still tank very well and are abit more balanced now. I find it funny that you think your zerk is a better tank now aswell... Just that shows how much you know about anything.

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Old 08-21-2012, 12:07 PM   #74
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Reforging offers strikethrough, AE autoattack and other things that brawlers lacked before as well. With proper reforging, any tank class is now just as good as the next. Reforging is the best thing to ever happen to class balance!

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Old 08-21-2012, 01:49 PM   #75
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ZUES wrote:

Reforging offers strikethrough, AE autoattack and other things that brawlers lacked before as well. With proper reforging, any tank class is now just as good as the next. Reforging is the best thing to ever happen to class balance!

But you are wrong. Strikethrough has been on the monk epic for a long time. They did have abit lower aoe auto tho but they had a nice aoe proc on top of that. Going over the cap on aoe auto does nothing for a plate tank but now when brawlers are sitting at 100% if they want to they still have that buff aswell. And that have screwed up balance alot. It all comes down to saves and snap aggro atm. And brawlers still beat most of the tanks with that aswell... 

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:04 PM   #76
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Novusod wrote:

Tonight I watched under an geared Pally tank easily tank a named that was continuously one shotting me. Unballanced game is unballanced.

Oh my goodness! A non-brawler able to tank something a brawler couldn't.

Welcome to being any fighter class besides a brawler or guardian for the last two and a half years.

As someone has said elsewhere, instead of being Super-OP'd now, you're just OP'd.

That being said, our raid force still uses two brawlers and a crusader.

TLDR: Rumors of the brawlers demise as raid tanks any time soon is greatly exaggerated in this thread.

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