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Old 08-04-2012, 01:50 AM   #1
Novusod

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Brawlers have long had a maximum 24% base avoidance with AA + epic buff. This is the base avoidance that get modified by block chance. In essence this is the brawlers shield and it is roughly equal to 2200 protection.

When they changed the Mythical shield protection value to 2230 it is now possible for plate tanks to get greater base avoidance than brawlers. Plate tanks with Mythical shield equiped would have 24.24% base avoid. There is no combination of gear a brawler can get to increase their base avoidance and because of this plate tanks real avoidance will be higher as well.

This is exactly what I said would happen after the great brawler Nerf in GU64. With the removal of the class defining strikethrough immunity we will see the return of the plate tank monopoly because brawlers will no longer have an avoidance advantage. The situation exists were where right now the plate tanks are gaining higher avoidance than brawlers. It is funny how the so called avoidance tank is no longer the king of avoidance. When brawlers started to catch up to plate tanks in terms of mitigation the brawlers were quickly nerfed but when the plate tanks not only catch up but surpase the brawlers in terms of avoidance nothing happens. Class ballance is so out of wack right now I don't even know were to begin.

Guilds that are using brawlers at this point are only putting themselves at disadvantage. It is only a matter of time before the brawler tanks are retired or reroll as plate tanks.

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Old 08-04-2012, 02:05 AM   #2
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Your class is Up then Down again. Its the Circle of EQ2.

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Old 08-04-2012, 10:25 AM   #3
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Will have to check your numbers since usually it is always second hand for you.  Looking at the avoidance report tanking commanders for myself versus our Monk he still had 8-10% more actual avoidance though.  Of course I do not have the "Mythical" shield but I do have the PoW shield which finally got a raise in protection value.

-IF- the gap has closed not sure why there would be such a problem with this since raid geared Brawlers can reach even superior mitigation levels than the plate tanks excepting Guards.

You can't just look at each thing and try and do a comparison than say that based on that one thing your class is inferior.  You need to look at avoidance, mitigation, survivability temps, DPS, snaps, and agro as a whole to see where the classes really are.

We still use a Monk and a Bruiser.  That is not changing.

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Old 08-04-2012, 03:36 PM   #4
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Bruener wrote:

Will have to check your numbers since usually it is always second hand for you.  Looking at the avoidance report tanking commanders for myself versus our Monk he still had 8-10% more actual avoidance though.  Of course I do not have the "Mythical" shield but I do have the PoW shield which finally got a raise in protection value.

-IF- the gap has closed not sure why there would be such a problem with this since raid geared Brawlers can reach even superior mitigation levels than the plate tanks excepting Guards.

You can't just look at each thing and try and do a comparison than say that based on that one thing your class is inferior.  You need to look at avoidance, mitigation, survivability temps, DPS, snaps, and agro as a whole to see where the classes really are.

We still use a Monk and a Bruiser.  That is not changing.

At the moment it isn't a big deal, .24 extra isn't a huge issue but with 100% block % it does make a 2.4% difference, the problem is further down the road as your shields continue to upgrade while brawlers have no way to upgrade their base block %.  It will lead to plates not needing as much block % freeing up their choices for gear and reforges giving them more options while brawlers will be out of luck.

If your brawler has more actual avoidance than you right now then you are not a good tank.  The only advantage is that your brawler has a longer duration on their avoidance temps which can artificially inflate a ACT avoidance parse.  Bruener is right though you can't just look at one thing you need to look at the whole picture and brawlers are still effective tanks unlike what Obano would like people to think.

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Old 08-04-2012, 04:30 PM   #5
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BChizzle wrote:

 brawlers are still amazing tanks unlike what Obano would like people to think.

/Fixed

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Old 08-04-2012, 05:02 PM   #6
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Tekadeo wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

 brawlers are still amazing tanks unlike what Obano would like people to think.

/Fixed

That is being silly.

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Old 08-04-2012, 05:32 PM   #7
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the problem as I see it that is being addressed here is that Plate tanks on average have 1-2k more Mitigation then Brawlers given the same adorns/Gear/Buffs and are all Specced for Mit. If at the same time Plate tanks can get higher Avoidance through then Brawlers then there is something very wrong with this situation. The reason for Brawlers losing ST Immunity was that we had equal Mit know and don’t need it. If the my observations are right with the difference in Mit and also Plate tanks getting more Avoidance on top of that then Brawlers then the days of Brawlers being even a good option agenized Plate tanks is going away.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:09 AM   #8
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Bruener wrote:

Will have to check your numbers since usually it is always second hand for you.  Looking at the avoidance report tanking commanders for myself versus our Monk he still had 8-10% more actual avoidance though.  Of course I do not have the "Mythical" shield but I do have the PoW shield which finally got a raise in protection value.

-IF- the gap has closed not sure why there would be such a problem with this since raid geared Brawlers can reach even superior mitigation levels than the plate tanks excepting Guards.

You can't just look at each thing and try and do a comparison than say that based on that one thing your class is inferior.  You need to look at avoidance, mitigation, survivability temps, DPS, snaps, and agro as a whole to see where the classes really are.

We still use a Monk and a Bruiser.  That is not changing.

Even looking at all the variables the SK is superior in every way to a Bruiser and the Guard is just straight up superior to a Monk.

1) It is impossible for brawlers to reach plate levels of mitigation since the mitigation nerf in GU64. Mitigation isn't linear it is a curve with a cap. Plate tanks and Brawlers both lost 1000 mit but since plates were over the 75% cap before they didn't lose any real mitigation. Brawlers were only nearing the cap before are now well below the mitigation cap. Even with 6 of those old +77mit adorns I still can't reach the cap anymore while plate tanks easily can with no adorns.

2) It terms of survivability temps brawlers are no longer king. Ever since they put strikethrough immunity on plate tank temps the plate tanks either have equal number of temps or more depending on AA. Gaurds can get 3 strikethrough immunity temps while brawlers would have to give up dps and utility if they wanted to use tag team as a 3rd temp.

3) In terms of DPS, agro, and snaps these are all kind of releated in terms of tanking because more dps = more agro.  In straight dps the SK is king which gives them amazing agro. Gaurds have great agro too thanks to their siphon and both have nice snaps.

4) Now avoidance is dependent on gear. The formula is something base block + block mod. So if you have 20% block chance and 50% block mod then the total real block is 30%. As I said before brawlers have a shield value of about 2200 protection while plate tanks can get mythical shields with 2230 protection. This shield advantage will only grow as better shields come out. Uncontested Parry, Riposte, and dodge chance are the same for all tanks.

The bottom line here is plate tanks either equal or surpass what a brawler offers in all four areas that matter for tanking. There are some exceptions such as berserkers being weak because of broken death prevent and low survivablity against death touch. But really people are only using brawlers out of ignorance or don't yet have mythical shields for their plate tanks.

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Old 08-06-2012, 03:06 AM   #9
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Novusod wrote:

When brawlers started to catch up to plate tanks in terms of mitigation the brawlers were quickly nerfed but when the plate tanks not only catch up but surpase the brawlers in terms of avoidance nothing happens.

What's it been... like 2 weeks? How long did it take brawlers to get fixed... 2 expansions?

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Old 08-06-2012, 03:10 AM   #10
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BChizzle wrote:

 It will lead to plates not needing as much block % freeing up their choices for gear and reforges giving them more options while brawlers will be out of luck.

As a guard specialized for single target defense, I couldn't imagine taking anything over something that increases my uncontested avoidance... assuming threat control is solid. Also, the level cap will most likely increase as higher protection values are seen on shields.

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Old 08-06-2012, 04:51 AM   #11
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[email protected] wrote:

Novusod wrote:

When brawlers started to catch up to plate tanks in terms of mitigation the brawlers were quickly nerfed but when the plate tanks not only catch up but surpase the brawlers in terms of avoidance nothing happens.

What's it been... like 2 weeks? How long did it take brawlers to get fixed... 2 expansions?

Brawlers didn't even need to be changed. At no point in DoV and certainly not in SF was their ever a brawler monopoly. The goal here is to roll back some of that great brawler nerf and not necessarly nerf plate tanks. Ballance has to be achieved one way or another though because a plate tank monopoly is intolerable. If all tanks are supposed to be equal how can you justify plate tanks having both better mitigation and better avoidance as well as competitive agro and snaps.

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Old 08-06-2012, 05:33 AM   #12
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Can't follow your arguments here. You sound like EVERY Plate Tank has a Mythical Shield, better snaps, better tools than a brawler.

Look at eq2u and count the (raiding) tanks with the mythical shield - would be surprised if you need more than one hand. Then compare again, using the real tools, snaps for every plate tank class individually.

Result is a fighter balance somewhere in all those attributes. Every class had its perks and downsides. Tbh we never had a more balanced pool of fighter's ever.

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Old 08-06-2012, 07:30 AM   #13
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Maybe it is another mythical issue.

SOE adjusted mythical weapon's damage rates, but not mythical shield's protections.

Its protection is too high compared to fabled ones.

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Old 08-06-2012, 08:35 AM   #14
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Mythical Shield is lvl 90; correct? If that is the case the block chance will be adjusted; I'm guessing ~ 2182 if the protection value reduces in a linear fashion.

In general however brawlers avoid more - the 360* block, and ability to keep your block if you are disarmed. Those two added together mean not only a slightly higher chance to avoid an attack... but more importantly a chance to avoid an attack "when it matters".

The difference between avoidance/mitigation of the fully buffed tanks is pretty immaterial; autoattack doesn't (and should not) kill tanks. It is the ability to deal with the damage spikes and agro (both snaps and consistant) which makes or breaks a tank.

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Old 08-06-2012, 06:40 PM   #15
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Novusod wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Will have to check your numbers since usually it is always second hand for you.  Looking at the avoidance report tanking commanders for myself versus our Monk he still had 8-10% more actual avoidance though.  Of course I do not have the "Mythical" shield but I do have the PoW shield which finally got a raise in protection value.

-IF- the gap has closed not sure why there would be such a problem with this since raid geared Brawlers can reach even superior mitigation levels than the plate tanks excepting Guards.

You can't just look at each thing and try and do a comparison than say that based on that one thing your class is inferior.  You need to look at avoidance, mitigation, survivability temps, DPS, snaps, and agro as a whole to see where the classes really are.

We still use a Monk and a Bruiser.  That is not changing.

Even looking at all the variables the SK is superior in every way to a Bruiser and the Guard is just straight up superior to a Monk.

1) It is impossible for brawlers to reach plate levels of mitigation since the mitigation nerf in GU64. Mitigation isn't linear it is a curve with a cap. Plate tanks and Brawlers both lost 1000 mit but since plates were over the 75% cap before they didn't lose any real mitigation. Brawlers were only nearing the cap before are now well below the mitigation cap. Even with 6 of those old +77mit adorns I still can't reach the cap anymore while plate tanks easily can with no adorns.

2) It terms of survivability temps brawlers are no longer king. Ever since they put strikethrough immunity on plate tank temps the plate tanks either have equal number of temps or more depending on AA. Gaurds can get 3 strikethrough immunity temps while brawlers would have to give up dps and utility if they wanted to use tag team as a 3rd temp.

3) In terms of DPS, agro, and snaps these are all kind of releated in terms of tanking because more dps = more agro.  In straight dps the SK is king which gives them amazing agro. Gaurds have great agro too thanks to their siphon and both have nice snaps.

4) Now avoidance is dependent on gear. The formula is something base block + block mod. So if you have 20% block chance and 50% block mod then the total real block is 30%. As I said before brawlers have a shield value of about 2200 protection while plate tanks can get mythical shields with 2230 protection. This shield advantage will only grow as better shields come out. Uncontested Parry, Riposte, and dodge chance are the same for all tanks.

The bottom line here is plate tanks either equal or surpass what a brawler offers in all four areas that matter for tanking. There are some exceptions such as berserkers being weak because of broken death prevent and low survivablity against death touch. But really people are only using brawlers out of ignorance or don't yet have mythical shields for their plate tanks.

Woah there sparky! guardians get 2 strikethru immune temps.. Im not counting block becuase it blocks ONE auto attack... Also they have to spec for it and dragoons..

DPS aggro and snaps still goes to brawlers, SKs can parse well on encounters and aoe and should beat brawlers but in terms of straight dps on a named fight, even without recklessness brawlers win and have the most snaps. 

Im not surprised you are talking about how weak brawlers are now and how they were never overpowered despite better players than yourself telling you otherwise.. Brawlers are still tanking everything they were and still bring more to their respective grps than any other tank in terms of utility and dps..

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Old 08-06-2012, 06:55 PM   #16
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Let me get this straight, your complaining cause an insanely rare mythical item allows a fraction more avoidance than what is possible by brawlers?

As if that somehow indicates a sizeable group of players able to surpass them?

This thread belongs in itemization stating you need updated weapons that modify your own avoidance to be 'in-line' with how much the mythical shield does for plate tanks.

Personally sounds like you want a mythical offhand that has more avoidance on it rather than a mythical weapon that is dps focused.

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Old 08-07-2012, 02:54 AM   #17
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The point I am writing about here is the problem with how they have decided to itemize the protection values on shields. That mythical shield may be rare now but over time better shields will be intoduced especially if the level cap goes up at the end of the year. This is inheirently unfair to brawlers since brawler base avoidance does not increase with level or even if there was a mythical offhand.

These types of problems tend to go in cycles and we have seen this before. Example being RoK when all plate tanks had more avoidance than brawlers. This led to strikethrough in TSO which only broke brawlers even more. Same trend is happening again even if it just a mythical shield. Small problems turn into big problems if not nipped in the bud. That is what this thread is all about. Raising awareness of problems early on before they get totally out of hand.

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Old 08-07-2012, 05:52 AM   #18
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Just to fix several mistakes in your arguments:

- Plate tanks are nowhere near the mitigation cap of 75%, except raidbuffed and in defense stance (THEN I get close to the needed 13k mitigation cap), I think guards are the only ones, that still have huge mitigation values.

- Plate tanks have no dodge or deflection?, just saying

- Block works different for plate tanks, as we actually have to use a   d a m n   shield and looking straight to the mob, all time, where a brawler can dance around and even turn his back to him and still block. Also Brawler can't  loose this block due to disarm effects.

- The mythical shield is Level 90? wich lowers its effective shield protection below your 2200 border anyway. And when they introduce shields later with new addons, you also get improved gear, so its balanced.

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Old 08-07-2012, 07:42 AM   #19
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- I am refering to raid buffed stats (priest buff + bard specced for defensive songs) and in that regard most geared raid plate tanks will hit the mitigation cap but brawlers cannot.

- Every tank has equal access to dodge chance (see 3% dodge food and drink + over cap defense turns into dodge chance). Defection no longer exists since it was merged with block chance a few years ago.

- Shields have trade offs this much is true. Shields have just as much stats as an offhand so you don't lose too much considering there is a swing penalty for dual wielding. Shields also get the added bonus of being able to keep your uncontested avoidance in offensive stance while brawlers if they want to use their base avoidance have to stay in defensive stance. Disarm only lasts a few seconds and if you are good with positioning a mob should never end up behind you.

- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.

Just checking but I am sure I got all the ducks in a row on this one.

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Old 08-07-2012, 02:17 PM   #20
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Novusod wrote:

- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.

So long as this is kept into account on brawler itemization amounts, this can be managed in a reasonable manner.  Sure, we may see some brawler specific weapons with what seems like insane modifiers in the future, but it can be managed via itemization if they choose to.

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Old 08-07-2012, 02:41 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

Novusod wrote:

- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.

So long as this is kept into account on brawler itemization amounts, this can be managed in a reasonable manner.  Sure, we may see some brawler specific weapons with what seems like insane modifiers in the future, but it can be managed via itemization if they choose to.

No no and no.  This can't and shouldn't happen ever.  The way SOE makes their items is each of them has a score so if they put lets say a score of 100 on your sword or shield and it doesn't need as much block % that means you would have better stats in other areas meanwhile brawlers would be stuck with less effective weapons because part of their item score would be forced to cover a block % imbalance.

Also, Obano complaining brawlers can't get plate mit levels, I am not even adorned or reforged for mit and I was at 12.5 mit in raid last night.  Obano stop lying.

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Old 08-07-2012, 07:36 PM   #22
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didnt obano quit playing before gu64 even came out? he wanted to be the first of all the brawlers to quit before getting shelved by their guilds to make way for all plate tanks all the time.

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Old 08-07-2012, 11:04 PM   #23
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BChizzle wrote:

Also, Obano complaining brawlers can't get plate mit levels, I am not even adorned or reforged for mit and I was at 12.5 mit in raid last night.  Obano stop lying.

I am looking at my mit right now in raid. My raid buffed mitigation is 11695 with mystic, inquis, dirge, assassin, Illy, bruiser. By comparison a guardian has mitigation of 14543 with mystic, inquis, dirge, beastlord, coercer. I can post screenshots if you want to prove this is not a lie.

Blanka you must have your mit temp running or something. Without your group make up the info you are giving is just distorting the issue by accusing me of lying.

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Old 08-07-2012, 11:41 PM   #24
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As a monk in raid i have 11399 with Sin, Illy, Mystic, Temp and Dirge, so its not not just a bruiser thing
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:43 AM   #25
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Oh man what if you had a temporary ability that gave mitigation AND wards.

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Old 08-08-2012, 01:17 AM   #26
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Rock Skin is a temp which I have used a few times but a lot of the damage just ignores the ward anyway. The mitigation is nice but it comes at the cost of lost dps/agro and roots me when I really don't want to be rooted. It is a broken ability that has very limited use. Plate tanks get the mitigation without having to use a temp. The balance here that you are trying to imply is a total joke considering this thread is about plate tanks gaining an avoidance advantage over brawlers now as well.

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Old 08-08-2012, 03:11 AM   #27
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Novusod wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Also, Obano complaining brawlers can't get plate mit levels, I am not even adorned or reforged for mit and I was at 12.5 mit in raid last night.  Obano stop lying.

I am looking at my mit right now in raid. My raid buffed mitigation is 11695 with mystic, inquis, dirge, assassin, Illy, bruiser. By comparison a guardian has mitigation of 14543 with mystic, inquis, dirge, beastlord, coercer. I can post screenshots if you want to prove this is not a lie.

Blanka you must have your mit temp running or something. Without your group make up the info you are giving is just distorting the issue by accusing me of lying.

So you can get 11695 not even reforged for mit and you complain, you realize that with buffs etc you will be at cap pretty fast.

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Old 08-08-2012, 05:03 AM   #28
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BChizzle wrote:

So you can get 11695 not even reforged for mit and you complain, you realize that with buffs etc you will be at cap pretty fast.

This is the second time you brought up reforging for mit but do you realize there is NO such thing as reforging for mitigation. And I already told you that 11695 is already with raid buffs and this is no where near even the soft cap. Also Blanka do you even know what the mitigation cap is for level 98 to 100 mobs? The soft cap for mit is around 15000 where additional mit doesn't make much of a difference. Lets be clear here a brawler is not competitive with plate tanks in terms of mitigation nor should they be. Mitigation is not what I am here to complain about anyway. This thread is about brawlers losing their avoidance advantage to plate tanks.

When plate tanks have better mitigation and better avoidance with those mythical shields something is wrong with the ballance. The great brawler nerf of GU64 went too far and now plate tanks are just straight up superior.

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Old 08-08-2012, 12:21 PM   #29
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Novusod wrote:

- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.

So long as this is kept into account on brawler itemization amounts, this can be managed in a reasonable manner.  Sure, we may see some brawler specific weapons with what seems like insane modifiers in the future, but it can be managed via itemization if they choose to.

No no and no.  This can't and shouldn't happen ever.  The way SOE makes their items is each of them has a score so if they put lets say a score of 100 on your sword or shield and it doesn't need as much block % that means you would have better stats in other areas meanwhile brawlers would be stuck with less effective weapons because part of their item score would be forced to cover a block % imbalance.

Also, Obano complaining brawlers can't get plate mit levels, I am not even adorned or reforged for mit and I was at 12.5 mit in raid last night.  Obano stop lying.

Actually, I pretty strongly agree this is exactly how it should happen.  This way you need the best gear to get the best avoidance.  They have the ability to change the point cost of a stat on a specific slot.  They have the ability to manually craft items outside of the point scale system.

Just as plate fighter avoidance increases by getting better gear, brawler avoidance should work the same way, and you absolutely are going to trade off on dps stats on weapons in order to get more avoidance on it.

Anything else, absolutely won't remain balanced.

And yes Obano is full of it, brawlers still get plenty of mit if they focus on it.

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Old 08-08-2012, 02:27 PM   #30
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Novusod wrote:

- I am refering to raid buffed stats (priest buff + bard specced for defensive songs) and in that regard most geared raid plate tanks will hit the mitigation cap but brawlers cannot.

Brawlers shouldn't be hitting mit cap anyway. What's even the point of having leather? In theory, even scouts should have more mit.

- Every tank has equal access to dodge chance (see 3% dodge food and drink + over cap defense turns into dodge chance). Defection no longer exists since it was merged with block chance a few years ago.

So we're equal here.

- Shields have trade offs this much is true. Shields have just as much stats as an offhand so you don't lose too much considering there is a swing penalty for dual wielding.

Yea, ok.

Shields also get the added bonus of being able to keep your uncontested avoidance in offensive stance while brawlers if they want to use their base avoidance have to stay in defensive stance.

Anything tanked in o-stance is pharm and doesn't matter. I never even use o-stance when I tank anymore, I stay in D and pull more mobs.

Disarm only lasts a few seconds and if you are good with positioning a mob should never end up behind you.

A few seconds with no block sucks balls. No matter how good you are at this game, mobs can, do, and will end up behind you.

- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.

So far this hasn't happened and isn't a problem, but thanks for your concern.

Just checking but I am sure I got all the ducks in a row on this one.

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