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Old 04-29-2012, 04:50 PM   #1
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Can you add a stance that all fighters can buy from there trainers.

Instant Cast, 10 Second Recast:

- Removes Threat from all abilities.

- Removes +Hate Positionals.

- -1000% Hate Gain. (This way hate gain is 0% regardless of gear, Hate gain does not go into negatives.)

- Fighter is no longer considered a fighter, so stuff that lowers his hate gain and decreases threat works on him, and dirge buffs that buff hate won't work on him.  Ect.

Does not increase DPS or anything, and can be used any time.

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Old 05-04-2012, 04:50 PM   #2
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I liked this idea when Aeralik attempted it, but I think the nail in the coffin was he attached it to the offensive stance.  If I understand your idea, this would be a separate ability that stacks with any offensive/mid/defensive stance already in use, leaving the other stats intact.  Although I would drop the part about positionals, since non-tanking fighters need to be able to use positional "snap" abilities to reduce chaos when the tanking fighter goes down.

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Old 05-05-2012, 12:16 AM   #3
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Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:

I liked this idea when Aeralik attempted it, but I think the nail in the coffin was he attached it to the offensive stance.  If I understand your idea, this would be a separate ability that stacks with any offensive/mid/defensive stance already in use, leaving the other stats intact.  Although I would drop the part about positionals, since non-tanking fighters need to be able to use positional "snap" abilities to reduce chaos when the tanking fighter goes down.

Well, since its instant reuse/recast, if you want to use your threat positionals as a positional, you can turn off the ability and then when you don't, turn it back on.

Its for things like "grave sacrament" which gives you a hate position, but does lots of damage, this way you can keep the damage, but don't pull aggro and die since your not tanking.

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Old 05-12-2012, 06:23 PM   #4
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this is called an offensive stance, an intermediate would generate less hate but still offer a chunk of DPS gain with less defensive benefits and would allow you to still switch to defensive if you needed to. offensive stance should offer real DPS benefits but not allow you to switch to defensive.

no code is necessary for buff negating, even if you used a snap the mob would instantly lose you due to deaggros built in.

this is how things should have went. in all honesty threat generation should be a tank's primary role with the secondary job being setting up your character for survival with a big chunk of that coming from the stance you choose, but tanks should still be able to solo/duo with some choice left to them when not in a raid environment. that being your intermediate stance, offensive mainly just being for solo and utility gaps.

welcome to my 3 year old suggestion. didn't happen then, won't happen now.

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Old 05-12-2012, 07:18 PM   #5
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Atm, my problem is losing aggro to the main tank, if I don't stop attacking he can never rip it off me.

But I have 40% Unbuffed Hate Mod/259% unbuffed critical bonus now, using 2 weapons.

I'm usually top 3-4 on the parse in this expansion.

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Old 05-13-2012, 05:07 PM   #6
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I would much rather see them add a simple buff to all fighter stances

Offensive: +20% damage dealt AND taken

Defensive: +100% to Taunts, Strikethrough Immunity (at least while temp buffs are up)

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Old 05-13-2012, 05:42 PM   #7
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The offensive stance would be useless, we would be squishier then mages with +20% damage taken, aoes would just one shot us. Lol.

Also... I would just rip aggro off the tank constantly with 20% more damage, he can barley keep aggro off me as is.

And I won't beable to use all my AOEs, which is my primary damage dealing CAs.

And after all that, I would like my offensive stances damage proc to be moved to another self buff.

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Old 05-13-2012, 06:37 PM   #8
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Do what other class in your raid do watch thier threat and back off if needed.

BTW if you are ripping aggro of the MT in the raid maybe you should be the MT.  Although we are talking about you and you would prolly try to tank everything in O Stance with a 2 Hander and die allot.

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Old 05-14-2012, 02:12 AM   #9
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The offensive stance would be useless, we would be squishier then mages with +20% damage taken, aoes would just one shot us. Lol.

Also... I would just rip aggro off the tank constantly with 20% more damage, he can barley keep aggro off me as is.

And I won't beable to use all my AOEs, which is my primary damage dealing CAs.

And after all that, I would like my offensive stances damage proc to be moved to another self buff.

And then you add in +20% MELEE damage taken and it's all fine.

And the only reason you are such a beast is probably because no real guilds will take you, so you are in a sad guild with a weak MT.  No real MT with proper buffs would worry about a Berserker who isn't hitting snaps.  But since you said you have 40% hate gain unbuffed I guess you think it's cool to rip from the guy?

But why no aoe's?

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Old 05-14-2012, 01:51 PM   #10
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offtanks grabbing unwanted aggro from the MT has always been a problem, but it is usually a utility buffing problem putting hate on you when you don't need it.

BUT if you are in the top 4 DPS then your whole raid is slacking and that is probably issue #1. i used to parse very well as offtank but i didn't kid myself into thinking i was that great, i called the DPS out that they needed help.

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Old 05-17-2012, 12:31 PM   #11
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Well.. with 249% CB, 230% Potency, 1300 Ability Mod, my combat arts ACTUALLY hit harder then my first hit of autoattack.

Now that my combat arts actually do damage, and now that I have lots of Multiattack...(600%.) and hate mod... (20% On bracelets/10% on gloves... reforging.)

Partisan Cleave hits for 1280000 now...

Its understandable I rip aggro off the tank, all the fights are AOE fights, and I do about 250-400k in raids now.

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Old 05-23-2012, 11:17 PM   #12
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Granted I dont have raid gear and I really dont have much of the new gear on my Zerk but it looks to me like you are set up more to DPS than to tank that might be part of the problem.........

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Old 05-24-2012, 02:23 AM   #13
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This post has moved: /eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50009...post_id=5759007 Trolling.
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:06 PM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

Granted I dont have raid gear and I really dont have much of the new gear on my Zerk but it looks to me like you are set up more to DPS than to tank that might be part of the problem.........

Thats quite obvious isn't it? (YDS)

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Old 05-25-2012, 07:57 PM   #15
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So you are saying that you are not set up to tank then?

Or are you saying that a Zerk is supposed to DPS only?

Last I checked we were Plate Tanks and supposed to tank.  You post about having issues with pulling the mob off the MT in your raid.  If this is the case then maybe you should be the MT and he should be the off tank.  However if you are only able to pull aggro of the MT buy sacrificing your survivablitly to the point where you cannot be the MT ( what it looks like you may have done with the DPS set up ) then maybe you should look at your gear and AA set up to increase your survivablity.

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Old 05-25-2012, 11:00 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

So you are saying that you are not set up to tank then?

Or are you saying that a Zerk is supposed to DPS only?

Last I checked we were Plate Tanks and supposed to tank.  You post about having issues with pulling the mob off the MT in your raid.  If this is the case then maybe you should be the MT and he should be the off tank.  However if you are only able to pull aggro of the MT buy sacrificing your survivablitly to the point where you cannot be the MT ( what it looks like you may have done with the DPS set up ) then maybe you should look at your gear and AA set up to increase your survivablity.

I have all my survivability stuff, i'm fine surviving.

If you actually listened to me, I'm trying to say my problem is ripping off the MT/holding aggro off him/tanking the raid, even on nameds, it pisses the leaders off usually, I don't die though.

If you played a zerker, you would know that taking hits and doing damage is kind of how we hold aggro.

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Old 05-26-2012, 02:12 AM   #17
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Considering Berserkers have no hate reductions or transfers like DPS classes... just buy some hate reduction adorns. Get yourself in the -20% to -30% or less range and you'll probably be fine.

How can you not know how to do this?

EDIT: Or rather, how can you not know that you should do this as a DPS role that is stealing aggro?

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Old 05-26-2012, 01:27 PM   #18
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Yes.. and that does what against Positional Hate?

Do you even play a tank?

Do you know how much that would cost? and btw you can't switch out adornments in combat, so that would not matter.

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Old 05-26-2012, 01:37 PM   #19
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Eh.. Not really sure if trolling me.

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Old 05-27-2012, 01:01 PM   #20
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I play a zerk and I have been the MT so yes I know how it works.  What I am getting at is this if you are so good that you are pulling aggro of your MT ( and you dont have all the buffs a MT gets ) then why are you not the MT.  There has got to be a reason for it and I am thinking the reason for it is cause even though you say you are set up to tank I am betting you are not.  Which is why you are not the MT.  If you dont want to pull aggro of the MT whats your hate meter and watch what CA's you use and be a good little DPS its what the other 23 people in your raid are doing.

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Old 05-27-2012, 04:43 PM   #21
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Zerkers are NOT main tanks.

That spot is reserved for Monks/Bruisers/Guardians. (in that order.)

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Old 05-29-2012, 01:07 AM   #22
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Zerkers are NOT main tanks.

That spot is reserved for Monks/Bruisers/Guardians. (in that order.)

This just proves to me that you dont really know how to play a Zerk or know what you are talking about at all.  Zerks can MT just fine with the correct set up.

All the tanks can be MT just some are better than  others and you complaining about ripping aggro of the MT of your raid just proves it.

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Old 05-29-2012, 03:06 PM   #23
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Yes.. and that does what against Positional Hate?

Do you even play a tank?

Do you know how much that would cost? and btw you can't switch out adornments in combat, so that would not matter.

Why would you use a positial increase if you are not main tanking? Yes, some do damage, but it's not that much of a difference if you'd just avoid hitting them.So let's lay this out in a simple manner:

Don't want aggro? Then don't hit an ability that takes aggro.

Ta-da! Problem solved!

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Old 05-29-2012, 04:18 PM   #24
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If your not going to discuss what the topic is, please don't post here.

You never commented on my idea, and your really not helping with the problem, your insight is already known and wrote down, however I would like positive insight on the idea at hand, not your preference to the problem.

I will tell you why that will not work:

My highest damaging low reuse abilitys have positionals tied to them, but sometimes its worth the damage to use them, because they up my damage.

The buff idea I have above on the first post, it does nothing but make you weaker.

- Sets your hate gain to 0.

- Sets your threat increasers to 0.

- Removes positionals on damage spells.

Thats all it does, its kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff, and its exactly the same concept.

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Old 05-29-2012, 07:59 PM   #25
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Hear are my thoughts on your idea

1) Tanks are not DPS and do not need a DPS Stance ( cause thats what you are asking for )

2) Tanks are ment to tank if you are pulling aggro due to hitting an attack that has positional hate attached to it its your fault for pulling aggro not the MT.  Cause anyone that has ever raided knows they are responsable for thier aggro not the tank.

3) If Tanks are given a DPS stance that reduces our hate gain what is that saying to the rest fo the DPS class that are responsable for thier own aggro?  If you /cry enough on the forums you will get your way?  That is part of the problem now.  Players come to the forums and cry loud enough and get things changed that do not need changed for thier own personal benifit.  Perfect example is PvP gear PvE Raiders complained that the Open World PvP gear was better than the BG gear and thier hard earned PvE Raid Gear and that the BG gear was to good in PvE situations so we ended up with to much gear seperation which caused dead BG's ( not that that hurts my feelings any ) and Dead Open world PvP cause people do not want to be out in the open fighting PvE and get jumped and 2-3 shotted by someone in full PvP gear.

So in closing horrible idea Tala and I have explained why.

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Old 05-30-2012, 01:54 AM   #26
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Sorry Kimber, this stance does not improve your DPS at all.

Reread it.

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Old 05-30-2012, 05:37 PM   #27
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Nor did I say any place that it would.  But we all know that it would increase a fighters DPS if they are able to hit all combat arts with out having to watch the hate meter.  What you ar asking for is the ability to hit all CA's with out consequence or thought. 

Reread what I wrote now keeping that in mind.

/thread

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Old 05-31-2012, 03:36 AM   #28
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If your not going to discuss what the topic is, please don't post here.

You never commented on my idea, and your really not helping with the problem, your insight is already known and wrote down, however I would like positive insight on the idea at hand, not your preference to the problem.

I will tell you why that will not work:

My highest damaging low reuse abilitys have positionals tied to them, but sometimes its worth the damage to use them, because they up my damage.

The buff idea I have above on the first post, it does nothing but make you weaker.

- Sets your hate gain to 0.

- Sets your threat increasers to 0.

- Removes positionals on damage spells.

Thats all it does, its kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff, and its exactly the same concept.

There is not a single class that does not sacrifice in order to perform a role they do not fit. Being a tank means your optimal job is tanking. It falls to reason (and has always been the case) that if you are not tanking, your class is no longer optimized which is why you wind up with useless or detrimental abilities for the task at hand... aside from the near-useless ones Berserkers have as default anyway.The simple solution is to have some gear to replace the hate gain bonuses and to not use positionals (2 blues and 1 red positional CA do damage if I remember correctly).  While it might be true that more DPS equals a greater chance at a successful raid kill, it is also true that a stable tanking setup where the MT doesn't lose aggro all the time is also (and likely more) successful.

If you really want a hate/positional reducer in a buff, it should be a part of the offensive stance. A seperate buff seems like we'd be trying to cheat the system. We do not need the offensive stance to tank and hold aggro anyway... it's just a trap (or maybe sham?) we fall into when trying to get us closer to the top of the parse.

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Old 05-31-2012, 12:29 PM   #29
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Kaberu wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If your not going to discuss what the topic is, please don't post here.

You never commented on my idea, and your really not helping with the problem, your insight is already known and wrote down, however I would like positive insight on the idea at hand, not your preference to the problem.

I will tell you why that will not work:

My highest damaging low reuse abilitys have positionals tied to them, but sometimes its worth the damage to use them, because they up my damage.

The buff idea I have above on the first post, it does nothing but make you weaker.

- Sets your hate gain to 0.

- Sets your threat increasers to 0.

- Removes positionals on damage spells.

Thats all it does, its kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff, and its exactly the same concept.

There is not a single class that does not sacrifice in order to perform a role they do not fit. Being a tank means your optimal job is tanking. It falls to reason (and has always been the case) that if you are not tanking, your class is no longer optimized which is why you wind up with useless or detrimental abilities for the task at hand... aside from the near-useless ones Berserkers have as default anyway.The simple solution is to have some gear to replace the hate gain bonuses and to not use positionals (2 blues and 1 red positional CA do damage if I remember correctly).  While it might be true that more DPS equals a greater chance at a successful raid kill, it is also true that a stable tanking setup where the MT doesn't lose aggro all the time is also (and likely more) successful.

If you really want a hate/positional reducer in a buff, it should be a part of the offensive stance. A seperate buff seems like we'd be trying to cheat the system. We do not need the offensive stance to tank and hold aggro anyway... it's just a trap (or maybe sham?) we fall into when trying to get us closer to the top of the parse.

Off tanking is much harder to do then main tanking.

This buff is mostly for off tanks.

No buffs tied to a stance please, thats a stupid idea, we already cleared that up with Aerilik.

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Old 06-01-2012, 01:09 AM   #30
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Off tanking is much harder to do then main tanking.

This buff is mostly for off tanks.

No buffs tied to a stance please, thats a stupid idea, we already cleared that up with Aerilik.

The suggested buff seems like an overkill response for which the only purpose would be to boost a parse by a small fraction of an amount (which is less fraction-y in large group fights) by letting you click two more abilities maybe a few more times in a fight in a longer fight.

It being suggested as a seperate buff from a stance seems like an attempt to keep being able to tank while in offensive stance (which isn't necessary).

Considering that in another topic you also want a buff to reduce spike damage, while apparently tanking in offensive (and if I had to guess while dual wielding based on a smattering of your posts), I'd have to say anyone should take your suggestions with a grain of salt as you sometimes seem to have a sort of cognitive dissonance when it comes to how you tank and what you want to do as a tank.Although I'd be happy to admit that I'm wrong if that is indeed the case...

Honestly, it seems like the actual problem is that hate gain, DPS (overall, not the stat), Potency, CB, etc. seems to be more important than taunts. If aggro and hate gain was focused more on taunts directly at higher teirs instead of spread around, there wouldn't be any need for special abilities to manage positions or threat.

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