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Old 02-02-2012, 03:53 PM   #1
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So why do they need strikethrough immunity?

Strikethrough Immunity was put in because brawlers had 40-45% Mitigation at the time and relied on avoidance, while plate tanks had 60-68%.

Now that brawlers also have 60-68% Mitigation in DOV, its no longer needed, infact it makes them super-powerful in most cases. (Heroics, PvP, Raiding, Ect.)

It should be removed and rebalanced with something such as "Reduces the damage taken by strikethrough attacks by 10%." And it should be added to all avoidance buffs for all tank classes.

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Old 02-06-2012, 03:09 AM   #2
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Not true but thanks for trying.

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Old 02-07-2012, 02:46 PM   #3
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While not true, the disparity between the mitigation values no longer justify the signifcance of the difference in incoming damage granted by 100% strikethru immunity.  Reduction of the 100% value seems practicle in leveling the incoming damage profile between brawlers and everyone else.

I wont hold my breath or anything though.

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Old 02-09-2012, 09:16 PM   #4
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[email protected] wrote:

While not true, the disparity between the mitigation values no longer justify the signifcance of the difference in incoming damage granted by 100% strikethru immunity.  Reduction of the 100% value seems practicle in leveling the incoming damage profile between brawlers and everyone else.

I wont hold my breath or anything though.

I call BS on this, we have been over it so many times yet you guys haven't shown one ounce of proof to back up your claims.

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Old 02-09-2012, 09:22 PM   #5
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I'm surprised the fact that pretty much every guild that matters runs a brawler tank cause its easier to maintain them isn't enough proof for you.

If I felt there was any doubt in my claim, I'd post data, but I really don't care enough to beat you about the head with reality.

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Old 02-10-2012, 04:40 AM   #6
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I play both monk MT atm and have a hm/em geared zerk and guard aswell. Like you said atan the mit is not the same but the diff is so small. So no its not BS. The funny thing is that my zerk with maxed out block on AA and a hm shield gets around 37% block. My monk has 53% ish with block gear on. Not to talk about the rest of the uncontested avoidance. Then count in strike tough and it gets even lower. Plate tanks need more damage reduction tools if striketough is to stick. I dont agree with talon since the mit is not the same... but its not so much diff really.

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Old 02-10-2012, 08:19 AM   #7
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Don't put down those sticks guys, I thought I just saw it twitch.

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Old 02-10-2012, 11:19 AM   #8
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I suppose I could just screen shot our Monks mit compared to mine in raid.  The other night both in defensive stance, me actually sporting 2 healers him only 1 because it is cake for 1 to keep him up on some encounters to lower healers there was a mitigation difference of like 300.

Start adding in damage reduction capabilities and its pathetic.

Meanwhile without having Brawler avoidance on myself for a Tallon kill I had actual avoidance of 52%.  Bruiser was sporting actual avoidance of 68% while Monk was around 75% (Monk had Bruiser's avoidance).

How much HPS would a Crusader have to heal themselves to make up the difference of being hit 16% more by these HM Drunder mobs?

EDIT: BTW if you want to see some real crazy avoidance numbers get the Monk MT'ing with Brawler avoidance on them and in a group with a Warden + Templar.

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Old 02-10-2012, 06:51 PM   #9
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Bruener wrote:

EDIT: BTW if you want to see some real crazy avoidance numbers get the Monk MT'ing with Brawler avoidance on them and in a group with a Warden + Templar.

We've done this and add a guard in the group for even more mit / stoneskin for the monk.

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Old 02-22-2012, 03:43 PM   #10
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All I know for a FACT is that every MOB Ive tanked Ive seen a Pally and Guard  in same guild Tank just as easily. This is up to second named in HM Sullons. To believe strikethrough immune is holding either of these two classes from MTing to this point is in fact denial.

Why anyone would be asking for any tank to be nerfed is just rediculous IMHO. Justify the need on your plate tank the same as brawlers justified the need to get strikethrough immune in the first place and you might be on to something (Brawlers justified a mechanic that specifically effected the class). Personally I dont think you can so the next obvious course is just getting brawlers nerfed to regain your MT spots /shrug

IMHO I think theres some other reasons why brawlers are MTing more. One being from every guard that Ive talked to that swapped just likes the brawlers all around game play better.  I cant argue that there fun outside of raid and if they can MT as well we have a winner! Biggest complaint from ex guards is brawlers dont hold AoE as well.

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Old 02-22-2012, 04:57 PM   #11
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Damager wrote:

All I know for a FACT is that every MOB Ive tanked Ive seen a Pally and Guard  in same guild Tank just as easily. This is up to second named in HM Sullons. To believe strikethrough immune is holding either of these two classes from MTing to this point is in fact denial.

Why anyone would be asking for any tank to be nerfed is just rediculous IMHO. Justify the need on your plate tank the same as brawlers justified the need to get strikethrough immune in the first place and you might be on to something (Brawlers justified a mechanic that specifically effected the class). Personally I dont think you can so the next obvious course is just getting brawlers nerfed to regain your MT spots /shrug

IMHO I think theres some other reasons why brawlers are MTing more. One being from every guard that Ive talked to that swapped just likes the brawlers all around game play better.  I cant argue that there fun outside of raid and if they can MT as well we have a winner! Biggest complaint from ex guards is brawlers dont hold AoE as well.

Here is the simple gist of it.  Brawlers get hit way less often.  They take same size hits when they do get hit.  They have more saves that are up more often to deal with one-shots.  And they have more snap capability both AE and ST.

Meanwhile every tank with current mechanics and current need of hate buffers/transfers due to the disparity in current DPS tiers hold agro about the same.  If you don't have the buffs/transfers you don't hold the hate.  If you do, you do hold it.

People aren't just making this stuff up.  Yeah, other tanks CAN tank.  It is just more difficult.  There is no way you are going to be able to convince that all these people and guilds have made a big switch to using Brawlers for progression just because their fun outside of raid.

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Old 02-22-2012, 05:35 PM   #12
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Bruener wrote:

Damager wrote:

All I know for a FACT is that every MOB Ive tanked Ive seen a Pally and Guard  in same guild Tank just as easily. This is up to second named in HM Sullons. To believe strikethrough immune is holding either of these two classes from MTing to this point is in fact denial.

Why anyone would be asking for any tank to be nerfed is just rediculous IMHO. Justify the need on your plate tank the same as brawlers justified the need to get strikethrough immune in the first place and you might be on to something (Brawlers justified a mechanic that specifically effected the class). Personally I dont think you can so the next obvious course is just getting brawlers nerfed to regain your MT spots /shrug

IMHO I think theres some other reasons why brawlers are MTing more. One being from every guard that Ive talked to that swapped just likes the brawlers all around game play better.  I cant argue that there fun outside of raid and if they can MT as well we have a winner! Biggest complaint from ex guards is brawlers dont hold AoE as well.

Here is the simple gist of it.  Brawlers get hit way less often.  They take same size hits when they do get hit.  They have more saves that are up more often to deal with one-shots.  And they have more snap capability both AE and ST.

Meanwhile every tank with current mechanics and current need of hate buffers/transfers due to the disparity in current DPS tiers hold agro about the same.  If you don't have the buffs/transfers you don't hold the hate.  If you do, you do hold it.

People aren't just making this stuff up.  Yeah, other tanks CAN tank.  It is just more difficult.  There is no way you are going to be able to convince that all these people and guilds have made a big switch to using Brawlers for progression just because their fun outside of raid.

Incorrect sir. I am not trying to convince anyone of anythin I stated the fact that both Pallies and Guards have Tanked the same content with no issues as I have. Whether brawlers do it easier however is an oppinion. I stated what I was told from guards that have swapped and their oppinion.

The "Simple Gist" you are deifining is lets make stuff harder for everyone (Based on your one sided oppinion), not easier which IMHO is not well thought out at all especially when you take into concideration the progression the people complaining has actually encountered. Common sense would be for a class that feels inferior to state what and why they feel that way with their class spcific problem to bring them up to par, saying because xyz has abc so they are OP is completely unproductive as they do not directly relate in comparison.

 On a side note, I have watched a Pally MT HM content with only 3 groups and 4 healers while I was OT, Ii will be close to impossible to convince me of such a drastic over power of brawlers from my personal experience. From some Raid healers Oppinions it is also easier to keep a Pally up than a brawler on HM Finnrdag /shrug

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Old 02-22-2012, 06:28 PM   #13
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[email protected] wrote:

I'm surprised the fact that pretty much every guild that matters runs a brawler tank cause its easier to maintain them isn't enough proof for you.

If I felt there was any doubt in my claim, I'd post data, but I really don't care enough to beat you about the head with reality.

I mean no disrespect.

There has to be doubt in your claim otherwise as raid leader you would not have had a Guard as MT and a Monk as OT otherwise you would be admiting to holding back a whole raid out of spite.

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Old 02-22-2012, 06:31 PM   #14
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Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

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Old 02-22-2012, 06:42 PM   #15
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[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

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Old 02-22-2012, 07:59 PM   #16
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Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

Ok, when you were comparing a Monk to a Guard there can be some give.  When you threw the Paladin into the mix it just throws your opinion out the window.  The Paladin not only is going to get hit more often but they also do not have the one shot prevention capability nor do they have the snap agro management.

Tanking comes down to 3 things right now.  1. Damage Taken Over Time 2. One Shot Prevention 3. Snap agro.  (Notice DPS is not included on there because SOE made sure they made Fighter DPS irrelevant with DoV and also simple agro generation since every tank can easily generate enough agro to hold singles and AoE mobs off a raid with the set up that is required in raiding).  So it simply comes down to those 3 items.  Right now there are 3 tanks that are better in all 3 of those categories than the other 3 tanks.  Brawlers specifically lead every single one of those categories.

As a SK in a raid it takes having a Templar + Warden + Brawler avoidance to get even close to the same sustainable damage taken + one shot prevention capability.  Brawlers get all that built into their character along with superior snaps and can basically do it better with offensive healers than Plate tanks can with a stacked defensive group.

The mitigation gap is tiny and is more than made up for by DR on Brawlers.  Meanwhile the gap in avoidance is tremendous partly due to +block chance being on a better curve for Brawlers and partly because of strike through.  If they are going to make it so that Leather tanks take the same size physical hits than they should make it so that Plate tanks have the same avoidance.  Than they can adjust some abilities on Crusaders + Zerkers for a little bit better one shot prevention.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:02 PM   #17
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Damager wrote:

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I see it differently.

The monk excells at surviving unpredictable damage.

The guard excells at negating predictable damage.

Unpredictable things are naturally much, much harder to deal with so we prefer to run the MT that minimizes that risk.  And I think when you consider a guard OT in the same group can leverage that predictable damage negation as well and let the monk MT most of the time, its clear to me which is the best choice.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:26 PM   #18
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It's hard to take Brawlers seriously when they argue that their survivability is balanced because I already understand that it's possible to play a Brawler so that they don't survive much/any better than other fighters.  Just simply rolling a Brawler doesn't make you an unkillable, infinite snap juggernaut.  However, I also understand that some people are able to attain that status by gearing/spec'ing/playing a certain way.  As far as I'm aware, Berserkers/Crusaders cannot become unkillable, infinite snap juggernauts no matter how they're geared/spec'd/played.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:33 PM   #19
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

It's hard to take Brawlers seriously when they argue that their survivability is balanced because I already understand that it's possible to play a Brawler so that they don't survive much/any better than other fighters.  Just simply rolling a Brawler doesn't make you an unkillable, infinite snap juggernaut.  However, I also understand that some people are able to attain that status by gearing/spec'ing/playing a certain way.  As far as I'm aware, Berserkers/Crusaders cannot become unkillable, infinite snap juggernauts no matter how they're geared/spec'd/played.

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared, clearly its not or even close to happening so all you are doing is talking the same garbage you always do.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:40 PM   #20
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BChizzle wrote:

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared

You bring up a good point there!  Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either.  Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:52 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

Damager wrote:

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I see it differently.

The monk excells at surviving unpredictable damage.

The guard excells at negating predictable damage.

Unpredictable things are naturally much, much harder to deal with so we prefer to run the MT that minimizes that risk.  And I think when you consider a guard OT in the same group can leverage that predictable damage negation as well and let the monk MT most of the time, its clear to me which is the best choice.

brawler is well rounded in my opinion, our temps like our two wards are only 15s in duration and will have no effect unless we take x amount of damage (One only does physical damage), death prevent 45s and as such best against predictable damage. Their AA procs protect against unpredictable physical damage (ie Multi attack oneshots).

Guard wards doesnt matter and can be used in either scenario but I would favor more towards unpredictable damage due to they protect against either type of damage and as such may be interpreted as predictable as they can be eatin up by the unpredictable.

I also believe the use of the term "damage profile" that you used is incorrect. The profile would be how the damage was taken over time, I believe the Guard would take a more predictable stable damage profile. Tottal damage, Brawlers have always taken less as a whole but still suffered severely from oneshots in the past.

I can whole heartedly say removing strikethrough Immunity from brawlers would do absolutely nothing for any other class (no it will not increase the plates survivability ROFL) and would have zero effect on any raid that uses a plate MT for progression, This is well common sence. What it will do is cripple brawlers and remove one way that a raid may or may not have succeeded against a certain type of mob and in the end the plate tank is still sitting where they have been.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:57 PM   #22
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Damager wrote:

I can whole heartedly say removing strikethrough Immunity from brawlers would do absolutely nothing for any other class (no it will not increase the plates survivability ROFL) and would have zero effect on any raid that uses a plate MT for progression, This is well common sence. What it will do is cripple brawlers and remove one way that a raid may or may not have succeeded against a certain type of mob and in the end the plate tank is still sitting where they have been.

Wrong.  It would allow them to utilize the mechanic the way it was meant to be.  SOE is constantly introducing content with too high of strike through that ends up being killable by Brawlers and completely unbalanced when using a Plate tank.

So what it would do is allow them to introduce more balanced content instead of take a guess throw mob out there watch Brawlers tank it no problem while Plate tanks are taking massive damage trying to do the same thing.

If strike through immunity is a non-issue than you won't miss it, right?

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:58 PM   #23
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Bruener wrote:

Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

Ok, when you were comparing a Monk to a Guard there can be some give.  When you threw the Paladin into the mix it just throws your opinion out the window.  The Paladin not only is going to get hit more often but they also do not have the one shot prevention capability nor do they have the snap agro management.

Tanking comes down to 3 things right now.  1. Damage Taken Over Time 2. One Shot Prevention 3. Snap agro.  (Notice DPS is not included on there because SOE made sure they made Fighter DPS irrelevant with DoV and also simple agro generation since every tank can easily generate enough agro to hold singles and AoE mobs off a raid with the set up that is required in raiding).  So it simply comes down to those 3 items.  Right now there are 3 tanks that are better in all 3 of those categories than the other 3 tanks.  Brawlers specifically lead every single one of those categories.

As a SK in a raid it takes having a Templar + Warden + Brawler avoidance to get even close to the same sustainable damage taken + one shot prevention capability.  Brawlers get all that built into their character along with superior snaps and can basically do it better with offensive healers than Plate tanks can with a stacked defensive group.

The mitigation gap is tiny and is more than made up for by DR on Brawlers.  Meanwhile the gap in avoidance is tremendous partly due to +block chance being on a better curve for Brawlers and partly because of strike through.  If they are going to make it so that Leather tanks take the same size physical hits than they should make it so that Plate tanks have the same avoidance.  Than they can adjust some abilities on Crusaders + Zerkers for a little bit better one shot prevention.

Unfortunately I can not accept your oppinion, I watched a Pally do everything I did with the same success. It is not my oppinion it is fact, it was done.

You also can NOT take damage over time into concideration without taking in healing/warding over time. You sir are comparing a brawler to a Pally this is apples to oranges in comparison of how they cope with damage.

The only thing you are compairing even remotely is one tank vs another standing there not casting a single temp buff or heal or DP which is completely unrealistic

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Old 02-22-2012, 09:02 PM   #24
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Damager wrote:

death prevent 45s and as such best against predictable damage

See, this is what I mean.  Spec for the Heroic AA that increases the duration and adds a trigger to Tenacity in order to take one step towards becoming an unkillable juggernaut (Note: this is hyperbole.  It will actually still be possible for you to die.  For example, if you fly to a great height and cancel your mount). 

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Old 02-22-2012, 09:05 PM   #25
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Damager wrote:

death prevent 45s and as such best against predictable damage

See, this is what I mean.  Spec for the Heroic AA that increases the duration and adds a trigger to Tenacity to take one step towards becoming an unkillable juggernaut (Note: this is hyperbole.  It will actually still be possible for you to die.  For example, if you fly to the great height and cancel your mount). 

If mobs Died in 90s sir you would be close to correct, Unfortunately they dont so you are wrong. Also there are plate tanks that have their death prevent up all the time and as such makes them take unpredictable wayyyy better.

Correct me if im wrong but SK can spec 3 death prevents that is up all the time? No?

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Old 02-22-2012, 09:11 PM   #26
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Damager wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Damager wrote:

death prevent 45s and as such best against predictable damage

See, this is what I mean.  Spec for the Heroic AA that increases the duration and adds a trigger to Tenacity to take one step towards becoming an unkillable juggernaut (Note: this is hyperbole.  It will actually still be possible for you to die.  For example, if you fly to the great height and cancel your mount). 

If mobs Died in 90s sir you would be close to correct, Unfortunately they dont so you are wrong. Also there are plate tanks that have their death prevent up all the time and as such makes them take unpredictable wayyyy better.

That's just one of the many steps to becoming an unkillable juggernaut.  For example, you also need high reuse speed, which makes your 90 second 3 trigger death save refresh in 150 seconds.

EDIT:

Damager wrote:

Correct me if im wrong but SK can spec 3 death prevents that is up all the time? No?

You're actually wrong here.  To my knowledge, the exploit that previously allowed three trigger BLs has been fixed.  Furthermore, they cannot recast BL while in combat, meaning the fight has to end (or they have to die) before they can recast it.  And further, the recast on the BL does not begin until the two triggers are consumed.  It's not like Tenacity where the recast begins as soon as you cast it.

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Old 02-22-2012, 09:12 PM   #27
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Damager wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

Ok, when you were comparing a Monk to a Guard there can be some give.  When you threw the Paladin into the mix it just throws your opinion out the window.  The Paladin not only is going to get hit more often but they also do not have the one shot prevention capability nor do they have the snap agro management.

Tanking comes down to 3 things right now.  1. Damage Taken Over Time 2. One Shot Prevention 3. Snap agro.  (Notice DPS is not included on there because SOE made sure they made Fighter DPS irrelevant with DoV and also simple agro generation since every tank can easily generate enough agro to hold singles and AoE mobs off a raid with the set up that is required in raiding).  So it simply comes down to those 3 items.  Right now there are 3 tanks that are better in all 3 of those categories than the other 3 tanks.  Brawlers specifically lead every single one of those categories.

As a SK in a raid it takes having a Templar + Warden + Brawler avoidance to get even close to the same sustainable damage taken + one shot prevention capability.  Brawlers get all that built into their character along with superior snaps and can basically do it better with offensive healers than Plate tanks can with a stacked defensive group.

The mitigation gap is tiny and is more than made up for by DR on Brawlers.  Meanwhile the gap in avoidance is tremendous partly due to +block chance being on a better curve for Brawlers and partly because of strike through.  If they are going to make it so that Leather tanks take the same size physical hits than they should make it so that Plate tanks have the same avoidance.  Than they can adjust some abilities on Crusaders + Zerkers for a little bit better one shot prevention.

Unfortunately I can not accept your oppinion, I watched a Pally do everything I did with the same success. It is not my oppinion it is fact, it was done.

You also can NOT take damage over time into concideration without taking in healing/warding over time. You sir are comparing a brawler to a Pally this is apples to oranges in comparison of how they cope with damage.

The only thing you are compairing even remotely is one tank vs another standing there not casting a single temp buff or heal or DP which is completely unrealistic

Lol.  1k HPS?  Do you have any idea how much the gap in avoidance provides in HPS terms?  Not to mention you can't even factor that not getting hit also means not getting MA'd for that hit and not getting a proc for that hit can you?  If a Crusader could heal the HPS to cover the gap in avoidance you would see the HPS of a healer easily.

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Old 02-22-2012, 09:17 PM   #28
Damager

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Bruener wrote:

Damager wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

Ok, when you were comparing a Monk to a Guard there can be some give.  When you threw the Paladin into the mix it just throws your opinion out the window.  The Paladin not only is going to get hit more often but they also do not have the one shot prevention capability nor do they have the snap agro management.

Tanking comes down to 3 things right now.  1. Damage Taken Over Time 2. One Shot Prevention 3. Snap agro.  (Notice DPS is not included on there because SOE made sure they made Fighter DPS irrelevant with DoV and also simple agro generation since every tank can easily generate enough agro to hold singles and AoE mobs off a raid with the set up that is required in raiding).  So it simply comes down to those 3 items.  Right now there are 3 tanks that are better in all 3 of those categories than the other 3 tanks.  Brawlers specifically lead every single one of those categories.

As a SK in a raid it takes having a Templar + Warden + Brawler avoidance to get even close to the same sustainable damage taken + one shot prevention capability.  Brawlers get all that built into their character along with superior snaps and can basically do it better with offensive healers than Plate tanks can with a stacked defensive group.

The mitigation gap is tiny and is more than made up for by DR on Brawlers.  Meanwhile the gap in avoidance is tremendous partly due to +block chance being on a better curve for Brawlers and partly because of strike through.  If they are going to make it so that Leather tanks take the same size physical hits than they should make it so that Plate tanks have the same avoidance.  Than they can adjust some abilities on Crusaders + Zerkers for a little bit better one shot prevention.

Unfortunately I can not accept your oppinion, I watched a Pally do everything I did with the same success. It is not my oppinion it is fact, it was done.

You also can NOT take damage over time into concideration without taking in healing/warding over time. You sir are comparing a brawler to a Pally this is apples to oranges in comparison of how they cope with damage.

The only thing you are compairing even remotely is one tank vs another standing there not casting a single temp buff or heal or DP which is completely unrealistic

Lol.  1k HPS?  Do you have any idea how much the gap in avoidance provides in HPS terms?  Not to mention you can't even factor that not getting hit also means not getting MA'd for that hit and not getting a proc for that hit can you?  If a Crusader could heal the HPS to cover the gap in avoidance you would see the HPS of a healer easily.

I dont understand your 1k HP? I have Pally healing millions in raid in ACT?

Direct comparison Monk healed 138k vs Pally 2.4 Million. Monk is completely dependant on healers to cope with spikes, Pally can compinsate for a smoother heal over time reducing the effects of oneshot.

If you are suggesting a Pally con NOT MT up to HM sullons without dieing you have been proven undisputably wrong by a guild that is only ranked 75th WW.

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Old 02-22-2012, 09:45 PM   #29
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BChizzle wrote:

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared, clearly its not or even close to happening so all you are doing is talking the same garbage you always do.

I'm unkillable, Just the rest of my group dies and I sit there in eternal gridlock with the mob until I get bored enough to FD.

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Old 02-22-2012, 09:46 PM   #30
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Bruener wrote:

Damager wrote:

I can whole heartedly say removing strikethrough Immunity from brawlers would do absolutely nothing for any other class (no it will not increase the plates survivability ROFL) and would have zero effect on any raid that uses a plate MT for progression, This is well common sence. What it will do is cripple brawlers and remove one way that a raid may or may not have succeeded against a certain type of mob and in the end the plate tank is still sitting where they have been.

Wrong.  It would allow them to utilize the mechanic the way it was meant to be.  SOE is constantly introducing content with too high of strike through that ends up being killable by Brawlers and completely unbalanced when using a Plate tank.

So what it would do is allow them to introduce more balanced content instead of take a guess throw mob out there watch Brawlers tank it no problem while Plate tanks are taking massive damage trying to do the same thing.

If strike through immunity is a non-issue than you won't miss it, right?

Incorrect. Sit back for a second and digest what you just said.

Your whole objective is to nerf brawler so they nerf the content so plates are superior /shrug 

You make an Assumption that they will change the content. If they dont you are where you are now as I stated.

Wouldnt it make more sense to just ask for the direct path and say remove strikethrough from the mobs? But NO some genious say's we nerf a class so they nerf the content ROFL. If I want a glass of water I say I want a glass of water, I dont say ban plastics so my water has to come in a glass ROFL!

Which part of ask directly for what your class needs rather than nerf another do you not understand? Of course as I stated it will cripple brawlers, and as stated it will have no effect on plates. If they nerf the content and remove strikethrough then yes that would bennifit plates, again as I stated.

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