EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > Class Discussion > Fighter's Arena
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-24-2012, 03:11 PM   #61
lostsandman

Loremaster
lostsandman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 188
Default

Netty wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Netty wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.

I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.

Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.

We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.

I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.

Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?

Im not trying to be rude. All tanks can atm tank all heroics and most EM. If all tanks was balanced in HM raids they would be even more balanced for EM. Sure some tanks solo better with heals and so on but you can still do it. And the only tank class that do lack abit in soloing is guardian. So yes Hard mode raiding is whats importent here. Since then all tanks could tank everthing some abit easier on some stuff but still would be able to do it.

Tanking is not about just taking the damage from the mob...

All tanks can take the damage dished out "easy mode" mobs provided they have the right group setup. However when it comes to snap agro not all takes are equal. SKs lack the tool in this regards.

Snap agro was not problem last expansion since you can very easily get agro by DPSing your way out. That's not an option now since a good t1 dps class can easily do 5 or 6 times the DPS of a good fighter. Due to the DPS change fighters without snap agro tools are at a huge disadvantage.

I am not saying fighters need to do T1 DPS or even go back to the way things were last expansion. Just saying that you need balance in all regards and that means getting help with snap agro in some way.

lostsandman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 09:06 AM   #62
Novusod

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,719
Default

If anything SKs and even Zerkers out perform brawlers in EZmode content. I wrote about this in the other thread. Here is how they ballance a free 2 play game.

Crash course on how Free 2 Play tank balance works:

- For players with silver/bronze subscription SK/Pally/Zerker is the best tank

- Brawlers are bad when we're talking about a person that's bronze with treasured and adepts and no AA

- Brawlers = high end raid tank

- SK/Pally/Zerker = N o o b tank

- Brawlers and SK/Pally = Station Cash paid class

- As $ ballance SK/Pally brings in more money than brawlers

- Zerker = FREE tank so this class bring in $0

- Thus we have ballance even if the raiders whine about it

I have some old links from Eq2X forums where the casuals are all calling the SK overpowered.

Link

Link

Link

Isn't free to play wonderful? I give it two thumbs up.

__________________
Novusod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 10:16 AM   #63
Netty

Loremaster
Netty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 227
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Netty wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Netty wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.

I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.

Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.

We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.

I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.

Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?

Im not trying to be rude. All tanks can atm tank all heroics and most EM. If all tanks was balanced in HM raids they would be even more balanced for EM. Sure some tanks solo better with heals and so on but you can still do it. And the only tank class that do lack abit in soloing is guardian. So yes Hard mode raiding is whats importent here. Since then all tanks could tank everthing some abit easier on some stuff but still would be able to do it.

Tanking is not about just taking the damage from the mob...

All tanks can take the damage dished out "easy mode" mobs provided they have the right group setup. However when it comes to snap agro not all takes are equal. SKs lack the tool in this regards.

Snap agro was not problem last expansion since you can very easily get agro by DPSing your way out. That's not an option now since a good t1 dps class can easily do 5 or 6 times the DPS of a good fighter. Due to the DPS change fighters without snap agro tools are at a huge disadvantage.

I am not saying fighters need to do T1 DPS or even go back to the way things were last expansion. Just saying that you need balance in all regards and that means getting help with snap agro in some way.

And who said that i am only talking about fixing the damage taking side of it? Everything need to be look at for some classes in a way or two.

Netty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 10:22 AM   #64
Netty

Loremaster
Netty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 227
Default

Novusod wrote:

If anything SKs and even Zerkers out perform brawlers in EZmode content. I wrote about this in the other thread. Here is how they ballance a free 2 play game.

Crash course on how Free 2 Play tank balance works:

- For players with silver/bronze subscription SK/Pally/Zerker is the best tank

- Brawlers are bad when we're talking about a person that's bronze with treasured and adepts and no AA

- Brawlers = high end raid tank

- SK/Pally/Zerker = N o o b tank

- Brawlers and SK/Pally = Station Cash paid class

- As $ ballance SK/Pally brings in more money than brawlers

- Zerker = FREE tank so this class bring in $0

- Thus we have ballance even if the raiders whine about it

I have some old links from Eq2X forums where the casuals are all calling the SK overpowered.

Link

Link

Link

Isn't free to play wonderful? I give it two thumbs up.

Im getting tiered of you. Just do as i asked roll a zerk and raid the same stuff you raid with a brawler than say how balance they are and how it takes no skill and so on. I got news for you it takes less skill to play a brawler than a zerk since both the dps out put is higher and the inc damage ALOT lower. I hope you are happy when you creat this much hate for your class since yeah everything you do is being reflected to your class. You have proven time after time that you have no idea on what you are talking about. So isent it time for you to stop now? You are just creating more and more brawler hate by acting like you do. I never disliked brawler untill now and im sure there are more ppl reading your BS that feel the same way now.

Netty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 04:47 PM   #65
Darkonx

Loremaster
Darkonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 389
Default

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.

Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Darkonx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 04:02 AM   #66
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Darkonx wrote:

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.

Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.

Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 12:33 PM   #67
Bruener

Loremaster
Bruener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,010
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.

Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.

Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.

Gungo you need to just stop posting.  It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue.  The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day.  There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control.  The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.

Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)

Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.

Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.

Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change.  It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes.  It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it.  The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical.  It is a long recast and short duration.

That is a start.  It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.

Those are tweaks that would make a big difference.  That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content.  Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.

__________________
Bruener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 01:15 PM   #68
Netty

Loremaster
Netty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 227
Default

Bruener wrote:

[email protected]rushbone wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.

Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.

Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.

Gungo you need to just stop posting.  It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue.  The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day.  There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control.  The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.

Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)

Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.

Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.

Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change.  It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes.  It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it.  The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical.  It is a long recast and short duration.

That is a start.  It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.

Those are tweaks that would make a big difference.  That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content.  Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.

To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

Netty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 01:35 PM   #69
Bruener

Loremaster
Bruener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,010
Default

Netty wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.

Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.

Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.

Gungo you need to just stop posting.  It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue.  The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day.  There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control.  The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.

Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)

Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.

Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.

Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change.  It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes.  It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it.  The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical.  It is a long recast and short duration.

That is a start.  It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.

Those are tweaks that would make a big difference.  That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content.  Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.

To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

You do realize that Brawlers and Guards already have more tools than those easily to handle the spikes?  Brawlers avoidance is far superior to other tanks as well and in a game of mechanics that base MAs/Flurries/Procs based on being hit they take significantly less damage not to mention having an ability that does 30% damage reduction if they are hit for the next 3 seconds that can go off every 10 seconds?  Avoidance saves really work on Brawlers unlike other tanks simply because they are strike through immune.  So a Tsunami is literally a complete immunity to ALL auto attack at that time that can be up something like 1/4 of the time or something?  Meanwhile DA for Crusaders only absorbs small hits for less time and on a 5 min recast?

I really don't think people realize how large the gap really is.  Chatting with Dark, you know Gungo's favorite example, it is hilarious what he says about his Monk.  He doesn't even understand how people even die playing a Monk.  Tsunami, DR buffs, etc that are up all the time it is quite amazing.

Those are just ideas for SKs.  Zerkers obviously need a similar look at along with Paladins.  Tanks need to be balanced and what I put in is not even as much as what Brawlers can do at the end of the day.  Start taking off some of those things on the list than start nerfing the other classes to be in line.  I was an advocate for them fixing the disparity by doing both.  Get rid of strike through immunity.  The strike through mechanic itself could be a useful mechanic...making 2 of the Fighters immune to it was just a bonehead mistake.  Fix the mitigation difference.  Right now Brawlers take no more damage at all from physical hits and because of the tools they have they take less non-melee damage.

Fix some other areas and than yeah I could see where the above suggestions would be too much.  Afraid to "nerf" what needs to be changed and the list above simply brings SKs onto the same playing field.

Do me a favor Netty.  Shoot Crushbone.Darkonx a tell sometime asking him the difference between his SK and the Monk and how huge the gap is.  There is a reason he can 2 box tank on Generals cause the Monk is cake.

EDIT: To add that it is getting real old for content to be adjusted a few months later to help non-Brawlers do their job.  If contenct can't be released because of the mechanics where it isn't balanced to tank it shows an obvious break down in Tank balance.

__________________
Bruener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 01:38 PM   #70
Novusod

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,719
Default

Netty wrote:

To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

It it is what both of you wanted all along, to Make SK or Zerkers super Overpowered again. Well that is never going to happen. Everyone sees right through you. That is why I am going to keep putting up the good fight and knocking down your arguements. All the ideas in this thread have been totally ridiculous. SK abilities don't really need to touched at all and Zerker need minor boosts at best.

To answer your question from before, I do have a 90/300aa zerker alt. From what I have seen this class doesn't need much help. I have no doubt I could be successful Zerker tank if I wanted to. It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

__________________
Novusod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 01:43 PM   #71
Bruener

Loremaster
Bruener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,010
Default

Novusod wrote:

Netty wrote:

To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

It it is what both of you wanted all along, to Make SK or Zerkers super Overpowered again. Well that is never going to happen. Everyone sees right through you. That is why I am going to keep putting up the good fight and knocking down your arguements. All the ideas in this thread have been totally ridiculous. SK abilities don't really need to touched at all and Zerker need minor boosts at best.

To answer your question from before, I do have a 90/300aa zerker alt. From what I have seen this class doesn't need much help. I have no doubt I could be successful Zerker tank if I wanted to. It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

You really need to stop posting to.  Your idea of balance is that F2P junk that you posted.  Obviously there is a huge disconnect when you try and claim Fighters are balanced in end game, but than you post what you see as the real reason things are the way they are and that points out the obvious of it not being balanced....but you think that is ok because it is an effect of F2P.

Posting what you did you completely discredited any argument you have because it admits that it isn't balanced at end game....you just feel it is alright because of how F2P works.

__________________
Bruener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 02:07 PM   #72
Novusod

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,719
Default

Bruener wrote:

You really need to stop posting to.  Your idea of balance is that F2P junk that you posted.  Obviously there is a huge disconnect when you try and claim Fighters are balanced in end game, but than you post what you see as the real reason things are the way they are and that points out the obvious of it not being balanced....but you think that is ok because it is an effect of F2P.

Posting what you did you completely discredited any argument you have because it admits that it isn't balanced at end game....you just feel it is alright because of how F2P works.

Yeah about that end game. Like they are really going to break the rest of the game's ballance to satisfy the jockeying for MT/OT in a few very top guilds. Make no mistake your ideas would break the game. I see SK tank plenty of stuff anyway so they don't need any changes despite all your whining. Would you or Darkonx change raid roles if SKs got buffs? No, Nothing would change because you guys are already the MT of your respective guilds. People like you just want to can the brawler position and tank everything and that is just not reasonable. You Sir are the one who needs to stop posting.

__________________
Novusod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 02:37 PM   #73
Netty

Loremaster
Netty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 227
Default

Novusod wrote:

Netty wrote:

To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

It it is what both of you wanted all along, to Make SK or Zerkers super Overpowered again. Well that is never going to happen. Everyone sees right through you. That is why I am going to keep putting up the good fight and knocking down your arguements. All the ideas in this thread have been totally ridiculous. SK abilities don't really need to touched at all and Zerker need minor boosts at best.

To answer your question from before, I do have a 90/300aa zerker alt. From what I have seen this class doesn't need much help. I have no doubt I could be successful Zerker tank if I wanted to. It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

What of the things i have posted would be OP or even close to the defens of a brawlers? I never asked for being OP i asked for balance. Zerks and sk should not be as defensiv as brawlers or guards i never said that. You clearly have never raided with a zerk at all befor.... You are if not the only one i have seen this expack that claim that the class is fine and dont need any help. Just keep being blind im done with you. Everyone even brawlers know how broken the zerk class is atm everyone - you that think everything is so good and fine.

Netty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 02:52 PM   #74
Netty

Loremaster
Netty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 227
Default

Bruener wrote:

Netty wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.

Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.

Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.

Gungo you need to just stop posting.  It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue.  The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day.  There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control.  The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.

Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)

Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.

Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.

Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change.  It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes.  It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it.  The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical.  It is a long recast and short duration.

That is a start.  It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.

Those are tweaks that would make a big difference.  That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content.  Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.

To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

You do realize that Brawlers and Guards already have more tools than those easily to handle the spikes?  Brawlers avoidance is far superior to other tanks as well and in a game of mechanics that base MAs/Flurries/Procs based on being hit they take significantly less damage not to mention having an ability that does 30% damage reduction if they are hit for the next 3 seconds that can go off every 10 seconds?  Avoidance saves really work on Brawlers unlike other tanks simply because they are strike through immune.  So a Tsunami is literally a complete immunity to ALL auto attack at that time that can be up something like 1/4 of the time or something?  Meanwhile DA for Crusaders only absorbs small hits for less time and on a 5 min recast?

I really don't think people realize how large the gap really is.  Chatting with Dark, you know Gungo's favorite example, it is hilarious what he says about his Monk.  He doesn't even understand how people even die playing a Monk.  Tsunami, DR buffs, etc that are up all the time it is quite amazing.

Those are just ideas for SKs.  Zerkers obviously need a similar look at along with Paladins.  Tanks need to be balanced and what I put in is not even as much as what Brawlers can do at the end of the day.  Start taking off some of those things on the list than start nerfing the other classes to be in line.  I was an advocate for them fixing the disparity by doing both.  Get rid of strike through immunity.  The strike through mechanic itself could be a useful mechanic...making 2 of the Fighters immune to it was just a bonehead mistake.  Fix the mitigation difference.  Right now Brawlers take no more damage at all from physical hits and because of the tools they have they take less non-melee damage.

Fix some other areas and than yeah I could see where the above suggestions would be too much.  Afraid to "nerf" what needs to be changed and the list above simply brings SKs onto the same playing field.

Do me a favor Netty.  Shoot Crushbone.Darkonx a tell sometime asking him the difference between his SK and the Monk and how huge the gap is.  There is a reason he can 2 box tank on Generals cause the Monk is cake.

EDIT: To add that it is getting real old for content to be adjusted a few months later to help non-Brawlers do their job.  If contenct can't be released because of the mechanics where it isn't balanced to tank it shows an obvious break down in Tank balance.

I know what tools brawler have over the others since i do play one right now. Been playing a guard since eof(the time when i betrayed my zerk since they just dident cut it as a raid tank) started playing the zerk again for SF. Atm im playing a monk since our monk went causal. So yes i know what tools they have. How ever i still dont think zerks or sk:s should have the same strength in taking hits. They just need a few fixes 2 of them that dark listed another snap aggro tool and i think SK:s are on good grounds. I do agree with physical stone skins need to be all around stone skin aswell since its on a long recast and its half worthless since kinda much nothing hard hitting is from a physical attack.

Zerks on the other hand have the lowest health And are forced to DW to hold good aggro.

Hit rates are sh*t they got no temp avoidance buff as SK and pally have.

Physical stone skin once again nearly nothing it works on...

Alot weaker mit buffs than the guardian.

Adrenaline that heals for 50% of the hit is just junk... And the fact that the power drain is so huge on it and with all the powerdrain mobs in this expack its useless.

2 death saves. One that are worth atleast something. Not to long recast and dont heal you up 100% but still with the changes they did its nice... UW on the other hand is useless... close to 10min recast and if you are unlucky to not be berserk you will die anyway...

A temp buff that heals for 10% of max health with every hit. This one was nice when it did crit. Now its just junk since mobs hits to hard and the zerks Health is a joke...

Weakest CA:s of all tanks...

Wearing a shield as a zerk is junk aswell since you lose half your dps and Dstance just makes it worse.

I dont want them to make zerks as good as the 3 other tanks but they should be able to preform better.

Netty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 04:36 PM   #75
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Netty wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.

Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.

Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.

Gungo you need to just stop posting.  It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue.  The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day.  There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control.  The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.

Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)

Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.

Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.

Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change.  It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes.  It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it.  The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical.  It is a long recast and short duration.

That is a start.  It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.

Those are tweaks that would make a big difference.  That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content.  Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.

To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

BINGO

Regardless of what BS bruener trys to spin. That is all I have been saying. He obviously wants TSO levels of shadowknights. To be clear dark didnt say ALL lifetaps he specifically said only vitae and tap veins should crit. If you count the saves a shadowknight has access to with that myth cloak and bloodletter castable in combat it is MORE save temps then a bruiser,a class he already claims is OP. But its bruener he always wants MORE and needs to play the most OP class.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 05:40 PM   #76
Darkonx

Loremaster
Darkonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 389
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Netty wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.

Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.

Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.

Gungo you need to just stop posting.  It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue.  The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day.  There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control.  The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.

Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)

Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.

Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.

Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change.  It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes.  It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it.  The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical.  It is a long recast and short duration.

That is a start.  It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.

Those are tweaks that would make a big difference.  That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content.  Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.

To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

BINGO

Regardless of what BS bruener trys to spin. That is all I have been saying. He obviously wants TSO levels of shadowknights. To be clear dark didnt say ALL lifetaps he specifically said only vitae and tap veins should crit. If you count the saves a shadowknight has access to with that myth cloak and bloodletter castable in combat it is as much as a bruiser. But its bruener he always wants MORE.

It's not true though. At least what Netty posted. In combat BL and critical vitae/tap veins wouldn't make us imbalanced. It'd put us CLOSER, yet still, imo, behind brawlers.

Two trigger vs three trigger DI, recast starting upon termination rather than cast, and a longer downtime from it's expiration until it's ability to come back up.

Furor vs Tsunami obviously Tsunami wins, as it makes the caster immune to strikethrough, and has HALF of the recast, as well as a 33% longer duration.

Legionaire's Conviction vs 25% damage reduction, the 25% damage reduction wins because it grants reduction of physical as well as magical, in addition to the 25% damage reduction having a third of the recast.

Respite vs Superior Guard, Superior Guard dominates it, half of the recast G_G.

Blood Siphon vs Magic Ward, monk ability is much much more useful vs magical and there's no detriment to casting it, but can't be used to absorb physical, and a much lower recast. Magic Ward wins out.

Then we go on to saves that the monk has, and we're out of ones to compare to, because that's all Shadowknights get.

Bob and Weave, a second version of Tsunami, which the Shadowknights have nothing to compare to, on half the recast of furor.

Inner Calm, two hit physical stoneskin on a fairly low recast (about a minute, the same as the other monk abilities, and half of the sk abilities).

Group 15% damage reduction on a 40s recast, whose recast starts upon cast, so it's up half of the time.

Innate avoidance that trumps ours, by half again more.

Self-complete heal that grants 15% additional block on the target they cast it on, for fifteen seconds. Pretty sweet but it's decent cast time makes it less useful as a save, but it just increases their passive surivability even more.

In reality there can be no direct comparison. Brawlers have better abilities, that come up faster, in addition to having better passive survivability.

P.S. I didn't bother including SK lifetaps, as they are so miniscule in the current meta game that they don't matter. I might do .2-.4% of my own heals, ZW. It's quite ridiculous. A 2k lifetap when I have 80k hp and the mobs are trucking me for 30k, just doesn't matter.

Darkonx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 06:52 PM   #77
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Netty wrote:

I know what tools brawler have over the others since i do play one right now. Been playing a guard since eof(the time when i betrayed my zerk since they just dident cut it as a raid tank) started playing the zerk again for SF. Atm im playing a monk since our monk went causal. So yes i know what tools they have. How ever i still dont think zerks or sk:s should have the same strength in taking hits. They just need a few fixes 2 of them that dark listed another snap aggro tool and i think SK:s are on good grounds. I do agree with physical stone skins need to be all around stone skin aswell since its on a long recast and its half worthless since kinda much nothing hard hitting is from a physical attack.

Zerks on the other hand have the lowest health And are forced to DW to hold good aggro.

Hit rates are sh*t they got no temp avoidance buff as SK and pally have.

Physical stone skin once again nearly nothing it works on...

Alot weaker mit buffs than the guardian.

Adrenaline that heals for 50% of the hit is just junk... And the fact that the power drain is so huge on it and with all the powerdrain mobs in this expack its useless.

2 death saves. One that are worth atleast something. Not to long recast and dont heal you up 100% but still with the changes they did its nice... UW on the other hand is useless... close to 10min recast and if you are unlucky to not be berserk you will die anyway...

A temp buff that heals for 10% of max health with every hit. This one was nice when it did crit. Now its just junk since mobs hits to hard and the zerks Health is a joke...

Weakest CA:s of all tanks...

Wearing a shield as a zerk is junk aswell since you lose half your dps and Dstance just makes it worse.

I dont want them to make zerks as good as the 3 other tanks but they should be able to preform better.

I think everyone is on the same page zerkers are the worst off tank. Even novosod said they needed changes. Personally i havent played with a good zerker in a while and i have serious doubts they can tank endgame content like every other class is capable of doing. In fact there is not a single high end guild using a zerker to maintank any content. Whereas every other fighter IS maintanking DOV content.

The class needs a complete overhaul including making thier defensive stance increase thier survivability significantly and much better sustained agro generation.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 07:15 PM   #78
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Darkonx wrote:

It's not true though. At least what Netty posted. In combat BL and critical vitae/tap veins wouldn't make us imbalanced. It'd put us CLOSER, yet still, imo, behind brawlers.

Two trigger vs three trigger DI, recast starting upon termination rather than cast, and a longer downtime from it's expiration until it's ability to come back up.

Furor vs Tsunami obviously Tsunami wins, as it makes the caster immune to strikethrough, and has HALF of the recast, as well as a 33% longer duration.

Legionaire's Conviction vs 25% damage reduction, the 25% damage reduction wins because it grants reduction of physical as well as magical, in addition to the 25% damage reduction having a third of the recast.

Respite vs Superior Guard, Superior Guard dominates it, half of the recast G_G.

Blood Siphon vs Magic Ward, monk ability is much much more useful vs magical and there's no detriment to casting it, but can't be used to absorb physical, and a much lower recast. Magic Ward wins out.

Then we go on to saves that the monk has, and we're out of ones to compare to, because that's all Shadowknights get.

Bob and Weave, a second version of Tsunami, which the Shadowknights have nothing to compare to, on half the recast of furor.

Inner Calm, two hit physical stoneskin on a fairly low recast (about a minute, the same as the other monk abilities, and half of the sk abilities).

Group 15% damage reduction on a 40s recast, whose recast starts upon cast, so it's up half of the time.

Innate avoidance that trumps ours, by half again more.

Self-complete heal that grants 15% additional block on the target they cast it on, for fifteen seconds. Pretty sweet but it's decent cast time makes it less useful as a save, but it just increases their passive surivability even more.

In reality there can be no direct comparison. Brawlers have better abilities, that come up faster, in addition to having better passive survivability.

P.S. I didn't bother including SK lifetaps, as they are so miniscule in the current meta game that they don't matter. I might do .2-.4% of my own heals, ZW. It's quite ridiculous. A 2k lifetap when I have 80k hp and the mobs are trucking me for 30k, just doesn't matter.

Lets do this. First i said bruiser not monk, a class bruener and you have said is OP. Since both Bruiser and shadowknight are the offensive aoe versions of thier class. That is what i will compare. And I know them better. First EVERY fighter can get at least 98.9% reuse from gear. So i am going by the capped reuse on these abilities(not legionarrie since unmodifable, nor new myth cloak unmodfiable). Including changes to bloodletter castable in combat and the myth cloak. (I am not even going to comment on your monk comparisons because the reuse on half your abilites are wrong, also you failed to include manawall, touch of death and divine aura for shadowknights all of which you can get) Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs                 Divine aura 2.5 min reuse 10sec duravoid buff/ full heal over time                                                     No damage under 50% of your heal (almost all auto atks)                                                                                                   (also strikethrough doesnt matter for this comparison)Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs                 Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs                  Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs                                    2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless                                       Will be down for 1.5 min AFTER its usedIgnore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs                   Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                                 Its a HUGE wardStone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs                   Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                                        NO phy damage over 60% of your health. (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)???????                                                               vs                    Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur                                                                                                    No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam???????                                                               vs                    New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                                    40% ALL damage reduction

I didnt include my opinion on the comparison, but any logical person can do thier own seeing the above. As i stated right now ya bruisers are better but shadowknights are not broken and all the shadowknight needs is bloodletter in combat castable and that myth clicky to be as OP as brawlers/guards. You think tap veins and drain vitae should also crit sure I dont think it will unbalance the comparison much. Any other significant change would make shadowknights completely OP again.

Edit: Actually make Divine Aura prevent all damage under 51% of your max health this way it will also prevent ALL coop strikes and its something a paladin can use as well.

Edit2: corrected touch of death reuse to 3min recast not 2.5min.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 10:41 PM   #79
Bruener

Loremaster
Bruener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,010
Default

Really nobody cares what you think Gungo.

What you fail to mention is the huge avoidance advantage you have which in turn makes your avoidance temps actually work 100%.  You also forgot to bring up your % chance of having a stoneskin on a Riposte, which goes off all the time.  How about the 30% damage reduction that procs anytime you are hit for 3 seconds that procs every 10 seconds?

You also try and compare an ability like Manawall which has proven to be a very unstable ability to use since everything is a power drain....something that your comparison doesn't have to deal with at all.  You talk about Blood Siphon which using can cause group members to die if you are actually trying to use it as a save for an AE.  I mean I can go right down your list an not only is almost every single Bruiser ability a better ability for the situations...but they are also almost all up a lot faster.

As stated.  Change Myth ability and clicky to actually be useful.  Make BL castable in-combat.  Make non-% lifetap abilities crit.  Than after that start talking about ways to make up the damage intake that the superior avoidance of either Brawler has and the difference in snap capability.  I mean how much do you think a Crusader would have to heal themselves to make up the 15% more often they are getting hit?  Basically heals like a healer. (Do you understand now why having a Brawler put avoidance on a SK would allow them to tank HM EoW with a solo healer?)

I would guess that Paladins needs are pretty similar.  Definitely some type of any damage taken absorbed ability on a decent recast.  Some type of snap capability increase.  Something to make up the disparity in damage taken since their heals aren't doing the job.

Zerkers same type of situation.  Really nobody knew that they were going to buff Brawlers up so high.  If they did than they might as well have left Adrenaline alone since even with that it is not doing as much as what Monks are rotating.  They also need to make up for not having as high avoidance...and the mitigation gap is non-existant.

Furthermore, either ALL tanks need 360 avoidance or none do.

__________________
Bruener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 10:50 PM   #80
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Bruener wrote:

Really nobody cares what you think Gungo.

What you fail to mention is the huge avoidance advantage you have which in turn makes your avoidance temps actually work 100%.  You also forgot to bring up your % chance of having a stoneskin on a Riposte, which goes off all the time.  How about the 30% damage reduction that procs anytime you are hit for 3 seconds that procs every 10 seconds?

You also try and compare an ability like Manawall which has proven to be a very unstable ability to use since everything is a power drain....something that your comparison doesn't have to deal with at all.  You talk about Blood Siphon which using can cause group members to die if you are actually trying to use it as a save for an AE.  I mean I can go right down your list an not only is almost every single Bruiser ability a better ability for the situations...but they are also almost all up a lot faster.

As stated.  Change Myth ability and clicky to actually be useful.  Make BL castable in-combat.  Make non-% lifetap abilities crit.  Than after that start talking about ways to make up the damage intake that the superior avoidance of either Brawler has and the difference in snap capability.  I mean how much do you think a Crusader would have to heal themselves to make up the 15% more often they are getting hit?  Basically heals like a healer. (Do you understand now why having a Brawler put avoidance on a SK would allow them to tank HM EoW with a solo healer?)

I would guess that Paladins needs are pretty similar.  Definitely some type of any damage taken absorbed ability on a decent recast.  Some type of snap capability increase.  Something to make up the disparity in damage taken since their heals aren't doing the job.

Zerkers same type of situation.  Really nobody knew that they were going to buff Brawlers up so high.  If they did than they might as well have left Adrenaline alone since even with that it is not doing as much as what Monks are rotating.  They also need to make up for not having as high avoidance...and the mitigation gap is non-existant.

Furthermore, either ALL tanks need 360 avoidance or none do.

So what you are saying is you want more saves and abilites and brawler avoidance on your shadowknight. Like i said you want everything every other fighter has and MORE.

Btw manawall does fine. I use the tribunal power drain miracle 30% reduction that eats MORE power then manawall. It works great as a save. 30% of the damage instead of 10% converted into power damage.

I put up straight facts no bias I didnt even include my opinion in that post and your trying to say no one cares. You're so full of it. You honestly trying to say a 1 sec cast heal is better then an Insta cast 75k+ ward? Stop posting your bias is dripping from your mouth.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 11:17 PM   #81
Darkonx

Loremaster
Darkonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 389
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

It's not true though. At least what Netty posted. In combat BL and critical vitae/tap veins wouldn't make us imbalanced. It'd put us CLOSER, yet still, imo, behind brawlers.

Two trigger vs three trigger DI, recast starting upon termination rather than cast, and a longer downtime from it's expiration until it's ability to come back up.

Furor vs Tsunami obviously Tsunami wins, as it makes the caster immune to strikethrough, and has HALF of the recast, as well as a 33% longer duration.

Legionaire's Conviction vs 25% damage reduction, the 25% damage reduction wins because it grants reduction of physical as well as magical, in addition to the 25% damage reduction having a third of the recast.

Respite vs Superior Guard, Superior Guard dominates it, half of the recast G_G.

Blood Siphon vs Magic Ward, monk ability is much much more useful vs magical and there's no detriment to casting it, but can't be used to absorb physical, and a much lower recast. Magic Ward wins out.

Then we go on to saves that the monk has, and we're out of ones to compare to, because that's all Shadowknights get.

Bob and Weave, a second version of Tsunami, which the Shadowknights have nothing to compare to, on half the recast of furor.

Inner Calm, two hit physical stoneskin on a fairly low recast (about a minute, the same as the other monk abilities, and half of the sk abilities).

Group 15% damage reduction on a 40s recast, whose recast starts upon cast, so it's up half of the time.

Innate avoidance that trumps ours, by half again more.

Self-complete heal that grants 15% additional block on the target they cast it on, for fifteen seconds. Pretty sweet but it's decent cast time makes it less useful as a save, but it just increases their passive surivability even more.

In reality there can be no direct comparison. Brawlers have better abilities, that come up faster, in addition to having better passive survivability.

P.S. I didn't bother including SK lifetaps, as they are so miniscule in the current meta game that they don't matter. I might do .2-.4% of my own heals, ZW. It's quite ridiculous. A 2k lifetap when I have 80k hp and the mobs are trucking me for 30k, just doesn't matter.

Lets do this. First i said bruiser not monk, a class bruener and you have said is OP. Since both Bruiser and shadowknight are the offensive aoe versions of thier class. That is what i will compare. And I know them better. First EVERY fighter can get at least 98.9% reuse from gear. So i am going by the capped reuse on these abilities(not legionarrie since unmodifable, nor new myth cloak unmodfiable). Including changes to bloodletter castable in combat and the myth cloak. (I am not even going to comment on your monk comparisons because the reuse on half your abilites are wrong, also you failed to include manawall, touch of death and divine aura for shadowknights all of which you can get) Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs                 Divine aura 2.5 min reuse 10sec duravoid buff/ full heal over time                                                     No damage under 50% of your heal (almost all auto atks)                                                                                                   (also strikethrough doesnt matter for this comparison)Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs                 Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs                  Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs                                    2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless                                       Will be down for 1.5 min AFTER its usedIgnore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs                   Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                                 Its a HUGE wardStone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs                   Touch of death 2.5 min reuse 8 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                                        NO phy damage over 60% of your health. (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)???????                                                               vs                    Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur                                                                                                    No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam???????                                                               vs                    New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                                    40% ALL damage reduction

I didnt include my opinion on the comparison, but any logical person can do thier own seeing the above. As i stated right now ya bruisers are better but shadowknights are not broken and all the shadowknight needs is bloodletter in combat castable and that myth clicky to be as OP as brawlers/guards. You think tap veins and drain vitae should also crit sure I dont think it will unbalance the comparison much. Any other significant change would make shadowknights completely OP again.

Edit: Actually make Divine Aura prevent all damage under 51% of your max health this way it will also prevent ALL coop strikes and its something a paladin can use as well.

Respite is 80 seconds, not 60

Furor is 2 minutes 30 seconds, not 2 minutes

Divine Aura will not stop any fatal one shot damage, and it's in an AA line that no crusader takes, because the ability became out dated years ago. Every single auto attack is >50% of hp, unmitigated, which is what the ability counts.

LC, given, it's nice, but THREE MINUTE REUSE, unmodifiable even, thanks for that

Bloodletter reuse is 2 minutes, and it doesn't matter when it comes up because you cant use it in combat, even if you COULD, it's 33% longer reuse than the brawler one, from the poitn of termination, with one less trigger. Lol?

Blood Siphon is a 90s reuse, not 60s, and it brings every single member of your group to yellow, so if you use it just before an AE, an AE that would take any group member below 25% is now fatal

Touch of Death is a 4 minute 30s reuse, not 2 minute 30 second. It's useful maybe once per fight, if that.

Manawall bases it's drain off unmitigated damage. It's at most a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your entire manabar. Even then that's only useful on fights that don't powerdrain, or, as with Sullon, have a CAP ON HOW MUCH MANA YOU CAN HAVE.

Mythical cloak is an item in a zone that's not even available yet? Can't really use that as a basis for our class being balanced.

You're painting Shadowknights with a far rosier brush than we deserve. Be real about it. Shadowknights suck right now.

Darkonx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 01:26 AM   #82
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Darkonx wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Lets do this. First i said bruiser not monk, a class bruener and you have said is OP. Since both Bruiser and shadowknight are the offensive aoe versions of thier class. That is what i will compare. And I know them better. First EVERY fighter can get at least 98.9% reuse from gear. So i am going by the capped reuse on these abilities(not legionarrie since unmodifable, nor new myth cloak unmodfiable). Including changes to bloodletter castable in combat and the myth cloak. (I am not even going to comment on your monk comparisons because the reuse on half your abilites are wrong, also you failed to include manawall, touch of death and divine aura for shadowknights all of which you can get) Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs                 Divine aura 2.5 min reuse 10sec duravoid buff/ full heal over time                                                     No damage under 50% of your heal (almost all auto atks)                                                                                                   (also strikethrough doesnt matter for this comparison)Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs      Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs       Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs             2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless                                  Will be down for 1.5 min AFTER its usedIgnore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs                   Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                                 Its a HUGE wardStone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs                 Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                                NO phy damage over 60% of your health. (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)???????                                                               vs                 Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur                                                                               No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam???????                                                               vs        New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                                    40% ALL damage reduction

I didnt include my opinion on the comparison, but any logical person can do thier own seeing the above. As i stated right now ya bruisers are better but shadowknights are not broken and all the shadowknight needs is bloodletter in combat castable and that myth clicky to be as OP as brawlers/guards. You think tap veins and drain vitae should also crit sure I dont think it will unbalance the comparison much. Any other significant change would make shadowknights completely OP again.

Edit: Actually make Divine Aura prevent all damage under 51% of your max health this way it will also prevent ALL coop strikes and its something a paladin can use as well.

Respite is 80 seconds, not 60

Furor is 2 minutes 30 seconds, not 2 minutes

Divine Aura will not stop any fatal one shot damage, and it's in an AA line that no crusader takes, because the ability became out dated years ago. Every single auto attack is >50% of hp, unmitigated, which is what the ability counts.

LC, given, it's nice, but THREE MINUTE REUSE, unmodifiable even, thanks for that

Bloodletter reuse is 2 minutes, and it doesn't matter when it comes up because you cant use it in combat, even if you COULD, it's 33% longer reuse than the brawler one, from the poitn of termination, with one less trigger. Lol?

Blood Siphon is a 90s reuse, not 60s, and it brings every single member of your group to yellow, so if you use it just before an AE, an AE that would take any group member below 25% is now fatal

Touch of Death is a 4 minute 30s reuse, not 2 minute 30 second. It's useful maybe once per fight, if that.

Manawall bases it's drain off unmitigated damage. It's at most a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your entire manabar. Even then that's only useful on fights that don't powerdrain, or, as with Sullon, have a CAP ON HOW MUCH MANA YOU CAN HAVE.

Mythical cloak is an item in a zone that's not even available yet? Can't really use that as a basis for our class being balanced.

You're painting Shadowknights with a far rosier brush than we deserve. Be real about it. Shadowknights suck right now.

You guys need to stop lying seriously. I am talking with 100% reuse Not whatever reuse you feel like talking about. If you are going to comapre abilities compare them equally not making up whatever recast you feel like.

Right now anyone can grab bloodletter off the broker its a base 3min recast and 1.5min recast with 100% ability reuse.Right now touch of death is a base 6 min recast and 3 min reuse with 100% ability reuse (I thought it was a 5min base)Right now hateful respite is a 2 min base reuse and 1 min reuse with 100% ability reuseBlood siphon is 2 min base, 1 min w max reuse

EVERYTHING i listed my numbers are right. except touch of death is a 6min base recast not 5 and thus a 3min not 2.5 min capped recast.

I Use the tribunal mana 30% power drain miracle it wastes more power then manawall 30% power damage per hit instead of 10% of the damage. Both unmitigated. It works fine as a save.

You can get 98.9% ability reuse from gear alone. Thats what i have without using chii right now in raids.

I mentioned the mythical cloak because it is a HUGE class balance effecting item.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 03:36 AM   #83
Darkonx

Loremaster
Darkonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 389
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Lets do this. First i said bruiser not monk, a class bruener and you have said is OP. Since both Bruiser and shadowknight are the offensive aoe versions of thier class. That is what i will compare. And I know them better. First EVERY fighter can get at least 98.9% reuse from gear. So i am going by the capped reuse on these abilities(not legionarrie since unmodifable, nor new myth cloak unmodfiable). Including changes to bloodletter castable in combat and the myth cloak. (I am not even going to comment on your monk comparisons because the reuse on half your abilites are wrong, also you failed to include manawall, touch of death and divine aura for shadowknights all of which you can get) Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs                 Divine aura 2.5 min reuse 10sec duravoid buff/ full heal over time                                                     No damage under 50% of your heal (almost all auto atks)                                                                                                   (also strikethrough doesnt matter for this comparison)Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs      Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs       Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs             2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless                                  Will be down for 1.5 min AFTER its usedIgnore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs                   Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                                 Its a HUGE wardStone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs                 Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                                NO phy damage over 60% of your health. (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)???????                                                               vs                 Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur                                                                               No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam???????                                                               vs        New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                                    40% ALL damage reduction

I didnt include my opinion on the comparison, but any logical person can do thier own seeing the above. As i stated right now ya bruisers are better but shadowknights are not broken and all the shadowknight needs is bloodletter in combat castable and that myth clicky to be as OP as brawlers/guards. You think tap veins and drain vitae should also crit sure I dont think it will unbalance the comparison much. Any other significant change would make shadowknights completely OP again.

Edit: Actually make Divine Aura prevent all damage under 51% of your max health this way it will also prevent ALL coop strikes and its something a paladin can use as well.

Respite is 80 seconds, not 60

Furor is 2 minutes 30 seconds, not 2 minutes

Divine Aura will not stop any fatal one shot damage, and it's in an AA line that no crusader takes, because the ability became out dated years ago. Every single auto attack is >50% of hp, unmitigated, which is what the ability counts.

LC, given, it's nice, but THREE MINUTE REUSE, unmodifiable even, thanks for that

Bloodletter reuse is 2 minutes, and it doesn't matter when it comes up because you cant use it in combat, even if you COULD, it's 33% longer reuse than the brawler one, from the poitn of termination, with one less trigger. Lol?

Blood Siphon is a 90s reuse, not 60s, and it brings every single member of your group to yellow, so if you use it just before an AE, an AE that would take any group member below 25% is now fatal

Touch of Death is a 4 minute 30s reuse, not 2 minute 30 second. It's useful maybe once per fight, if that.

Manawall bases it's drain off unmitigated damage. It's at most a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your entire manabar. Even then that's only useful on fights that don't powerdrain, or, as with Sullon, have a CAP ON HOW MUCH MANA YOU CAN HAVE.

Mythical cloak is an item in a zone that's not even available yet? Can't really use that as a basis for our class being balanced.

You're painting Shadowknights with a far rosier brush than we deserve. Be real about it. Shadowknights suck right now.

You guys need to stop lying seriously. I am talking with 100% reuse Not whatever reuse you feel like talking about. If you are going to comapre abilities compare them equally not making up whatever recast you feel like.

Right now anyone can grab bloodletter off the broker its a base 3min recast and 1.5min recast with 100% ability reuse.Right now touch of death is a base 6 min recast and 3 min reuse with 100% ability reuse (I thought it was a 5min base)Right now hateful respite is a 2 min base reuse and 1 min reuse with 100% ability reuseBlood siphon is 2 min base, 1 min w max reuse

EVERYTHING i listed my numbers are right. except touch of death is a 6min base recast not 5 and thus a 3min not 2.5 min capped recast.

I Use the tribunal mana 30% power drain miracle it wastes more power then manawall 30% power damage per hit instead of 10% of the damage. Both unmitigated. It works fine as a save.

You can get 98.9% ability reuse from gear alone. Thats what i have without using chii right now in raids.

I mentioned the mythical cloak because it is a HUGE class balance effecting item.

Lol. We're not lying. I'm just that good that I can tank the mobs that I tank on the monk, on an inferior class. It requires a lot more work to do so, I might add.

I'm talking with the reuse that wearing 2x reuse wrists, and every single slot adorned with spell reuse, gives me. It's 48%.

Your numbers are wrong, sorry.

Tribunal mana miracle doesn't cancel when you hit 0% mana. Therefore, it's not at all the same. Manawall CANCELS IF YOU ZERO OUT, which happens after one hit. It's a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your manabar, IF you have mana to use it. If you don't, then it's a non-existant skill.

I've played both classes extensively. It's night and day between the two. It feels like I'm 20 levels higher with gear from five expansions ahead on the monk, in comparison to the SK, when the SK actually HAS better gear. There's absolutely no reason for tanks to be as imbalanced as they are now.

Darkonx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 07:50 AM   #84
Boli32

Loremaster
Boli32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,425
Default

[email protected] wrote:

You guys need to stop lying seriously. I am talking with 100% reuse Not whatever reuse you feel like talking about. If you are going to comapre abilities compare them equally not making up whatever recast you feel like.

Crusaders don't get Chi so cannot reliablly get to 100% reuse - at least not their own terms and it requires another level of complexity. (e.g. JC and willing DPS to not get it)

... and a few other corrections:

Manawall unless they fixed it was unmitigated damage; if you used it to cover an incoming AoE and the mob Multiattacked you were left with Manawall dropping and no power to do anythign about it .. and then the AoE hit.

Divine Aura only helped on damage shields and tanking adds; it did include mitigated damage and since it was counted before wards helped to "save up wards" before an AoE was due. Unfortunally due to this you had to pre-cast it before AoEs to get the best benefit out of it Casting it when the mbos casting bar was up did nothing; and if the AoE was delayed it severed no purpose.

Legionaries Conviction the best abilities crusaders get was never perfect... I died when it was up several times asyou're still taking 60% of the damage.

Furor and Stonewall can still be struck-through. Stonewall whilst having the lower recast if you were disarmed it was dispelled and only worked against frontal attacks

I still find it amusing that SKs get more saves than a pally tho....

Boli32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 02:08 PM   #85
Controlor

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 767
Default

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

You guys need to stop lying seriously. I am talking with 100% reuse Not whatever reuse you feel like talking about. If you are going to comapre abilities compare them equally not making up whatever recast you feel like.

Crusaders don't get Chi so cannot reliablly get to 100% reuse - at least not their own terms and it requires another level of complexity. (e.g. JC and willing DPS to not get it)

... and a few other corrections:

Manawall unless they fixed it was unmitigated damage; if you used it to cover an incoming AoE and the mob Multiattacked you were left with Manawall dropping and no power to do anythign about it .. and then the AoE hit.

Divine Aura only helped on damage shields and tanking adds; it did include mitigated damage and since it was counted before wards helped to "save up wards" before an AoE was due. Unfortunally due to this you had to pre-cast it before AoEs to get the best benefit out of it Casting it when the mbos casting bar was up did nothing; and if the AoE was delayed it severed no purpose.

Legionaries Conviction the best abilities crusaders get was never perfect... I died when it was up several times asyou're still taking 60% of the damage.

Furor and Stonewall can still be struck-through. Stonewall whilst having the lower recast if you were disarmed it was dispelled and only worked against frontal attacks

I still find it amusing that SKs get more saves than a pally tho....

More saves and more snaps actually. Though i suppose on the snap department at least holy ground is up faster than their aoe snap (name excaping my mind).

Controlor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 10:52 PM   #86
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Darkonx wrote:

Lol. We're not lying. I'm just that good that I can tank the mobs that I tank on the monk, on an inferior class. It requires a lot more work to do so, I might add.

I'm talking with the reuse that wearing 2x reuse wrists, and every single slot adorned with spell reuse, gives me. It's 48%.

Your numbers are wrong, sorry.

Tribunal mana miracle doesn't cancel when you hit 0% mana. Therefore, it's not at all the same. Manawall CANCELS IF YOU ZERO OUT, which happens after one hit. It's a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your manabar, IF you have mana to use it. If you don't, then it's a non-existant skill.

I've played both classes extensively. It's night and day between the two. It feels like I'm 20 levels higher with gear from five expansions ahead on the monk, in comparison to the SK, when the SK actually HAS better gear. There's absolutely no reason for tanks to be as imbalanced as they are now.

You are wrong. You can get 98.9% reuse in raids on ANY tank with the gear we both have access to. (Shadowknights get MORE)I have 98.9% reuse in raids by default without chi. If you paid attention to what i wear when i tank this is what i have. And as a shadowknight since you claim divine aura is useless i am sure you can use the reuse AA  Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse or if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. So once again your number are wrong and you are either lying or you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

Neck                  8.4wrist                  8.4wrist                  8.4cloak                  8.4waist                 7.2charm                7.5Adornments       14Heroic AA           10Adornment proc 12%

That is jsut from gear. Bards(5%) and inqusitors(9.6%) give more which is why I am at 98.9% reuse. These are my numbers in raid. My numbers ACCURATE. As a shadowknight you have more reuse via AA then i can get. So dont tell me you cant get 100% reuse and if you dont its a failure on your gearing. The abilities i compared i compared EQUALLY with the same reuse % that EVERY tank can get. I am comparing bruisers vs shadowknights. Both 100% reuse. I agree bruisers are currently better but ALL shadowknights need is that myth cloak effect and bloodletter castable in combat to be just as good as bruisers. If you think vitae and tap veins need to crit fine, It shouldnt unbalance but both classes are the AOE offensive version of thier respective classes. Monks are the more defensive and single target version of the brawler class and they have more defensive temps and longer duration on thier defensive temps then bruisers as should paladins over shadowknights. You shouldnt main tank as well as a guard nor monk nor paladin. But you should be able to offtank/dps better then those classes and have better aoe snaps then those classes. You should be comparable to a bruiser and zerker. Divine aura was removed because no shadowknight would use it from the list below. The list is still however ACCURATE. Bloodletter in combat castable and that cloak effect goes a long way to balancing these classes.

Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate

Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs             Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time                                                 NO phy damage over 60% of your health.                                                                                                  Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs      Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs       Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs                         2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur               Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longer

Ignore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs       Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                     Its a HUGE ward  60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs      Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                         No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)                (Will stop at least one 1 shots)???????                                                               vs       New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                       40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 02:11 PM   #87
Controlor

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 767
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Monks are the more defensive and single target version of the brawler class and they have more defensive temps and longer duration on thier defensive temps then bruisers as should paladins over shadowknights. You shouldnt main tank as well as a guard nor monk nor paladin. But you should be able to offtank/dps better then those classes and have better aoe snaps then those classes. You should be comparable to a bruiser and zerker.

If only that were actually the case. As stated by boli and me directly above this post. SK's get more saves and snaps currently than paladins. So if you go by your comparison of monk vs paladin, then it is just laughable. 

Controlor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 03:14 PM   #88
lostsandman

Loremaster
lostsandman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 188
Default

Blood siphon, nice way to kill your group...

So Bruisers takes similar amount of damage and have  similar amount of snaps as SK?

For completeness, its better to compare those as well SMILEY

lostsandman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 03:33 PM   #89
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Controlor wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Monks are the more defensive and single target version of the brawler class and they have more defensive temps and longer duration on thier defensive temps then bruisers as should paladins over shadowknights. You shouldnt main tank as well as a guard nor monk nor paladin. But you should be able to offtank/dps better then those classes and have better aoe snaps then those classes. You should be comparable to a bruiser and zerker.

If only that were actually the case. As stated by boli and me directly above this post. SK's get more saves and snaps currently than paladins. So if you go by your comparison of monk vs paladin, then it is just laughable. 

It should be the case and everyone knows it isnt. between brawler subclasses it is balanced a bit more that way. Now you have shadowknights who want to maintank as good as monks, guards but they also want to do more dps and have better aoe snaps then those classes and be better offtanks. That is not balanced.

Everyone that plays right now knows shadowknights are better defensively and offensively then paladins. As you can see some people want balance and some people just want everything. The changes i stated above will balance shadowknights with bruisers, (zerkers need a total overhaul defensively and with sustained hate to even come close to those two classes). Paladins need a reliable damage prevention temp. The new myth cloak seems like they were going that route but falls rediculously short of that mark. It needs to be at least a 90sec reuse ability, it needs to prevent the paladin from dieing from one shots. A duration of 8 secs would be fine if it behaved like the clerics equillibrium and prevented the paladin from death. Even with an ability as powerful as that paladin still may not be better defensively then shadowknights.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 03:41 PM   #90
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Blood siphon, nice way to kill your group...

So Bruisers takes similar amount of damage and have  similar amount of snaps as SK?

For completeness, its better to compare those as well

It is still useful as a save I see it used on raids all the time. Does it have draw backs sure. I tried to compare abilities that were similar in use and recast. The ward is infintely better then the bruiser self heal. There just isnt alot of times i am sitting in raid 50% or lower in health where i have time to cast a 1 sec cast time self heal. The heal is also not something i can use to prevent an inc large hit. So the comparison is appropriate.

Bruisers currently dont tank similar amounts of damage and snaps then shadowknights, but it is my point that the changes to bloodletter in combat castable and the new myth cloak effect with possibly making vitae and tap veins crit would make them balanced. I can do another comparison with the aoe snaps as well. I may even include zerkers who imho have comparable aoe snaps for this (zerkers are just mainly screwed with thier defensive temps).

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:35 AM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.