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Old 01-16-2012, 11:09 AM   #31
Aull

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Nice write up Netty. I just want to say that I agree with ya. However I remember a time when brawlers where the least defensive and groups would bring a brawler in to make up for a lost rogue/scout spot with no issues what so ever.

I don't ever see balance with six fighters all competing for one position especially for a raid. I hope that the devs will look again at all the fighters. All fighters have aa's and abilities that are outdated and do not have meaningful applications in todays game.

Like Netty stated about the zerker the list can also keep going for each fighter.

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Old 01-17-2012, 04:24 PM   #32
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Bruener wrote:

  Unless of course the Crusader or Zerk is just that much better of a player. (Take a HINT Gungo)

Here is the HINT for you bruener DARKON has killed every encounter in game on his shadowknight(most of them he maintanked) just as I have killed every encounter on my bruiser(most of them I have maintanked). People are serving firsting content with a shadowknight maintank. Yesterday alone dark tanked soren and all of HM sullon on his shadowknight as we first pulled everything up to HM sullon. Thats all the facts you need to know to realize how much you suck at your class. So stop trying to jump on the zerker failboat because you as a player fail at playing a non overpowered class.

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Old 01-17-2012, 04:31 PM   #33
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Netty wrote:

Novusod wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Novusod wrote:

We tried with Guard and Bruiser MTs and failed. I am not going to give away the secret strat but SK is the way to go though.

Dark tanks everything on his shadowknight as well. The problem isnt necessarily the shadowknight class its the person playing (in bruener case he cant see his own failure). Zerks are a different story but bruener is trying to jump on the zerker class failboat so he can get buffed and OP again.

Honestly I will say it again. I think there is a really good ballance between the tank classes right now. Brawlers and Guards and SKs are in good shape from what I have witnessed. Zerkers are the only class that needs a bit of a boost.

Zerks dont need abit of a boost they need nearly a rewamp to fix everyhing that are just meh with them atm. You dont play a zerk so dont come here and make up stuff like you did with the buckler line.

1.Raid focus need to be changed. 12 combat skills added to berserk is useless. Adding 5% block chance on a temp buff is useless. 5% MA on the raid wide as a focus is close to nothing (yes its raid wide but most scouts get caped out anyway better to use the focus to do something usefull).  I can keep on with these the only one that are worth it for those is the extra triggers on rampage.

2.Adrenaline as you said aswell need to be looked at again to make it usefull.

3.Hit rates is just a joke on berserks.

4.Ward of rage need to be made usefull again since the heal crit nerf. Its to small now 280 ward is close to nothing.

5.Stone skin buff need to be turned into a stone skin buff or just for magical damage. Since most mobs dont use physical aoes/death touch.

6. Agrro is a big problem and need to looked at.

7. The over all inc damage is more than any fighter get and somehow it need to be fixed. Since zerks are forced to go as offensiv as poss losing shield never use Dstance and so on they lose alot.

8. Dps when wearing a shield need to be higher for both warriors imo.

9. open wound need to be made usefull. The change they did to it did nearly nothing to it.

I can keep this list going.... But those things are not huge but its not small fixes as you claim it to be. Tanks are not balanced atm and even guards are bad off even tho they can tank well. If brawlers are to be most defensiv guards should do more dps than them. I dont want nerfs at all i want balance and the tank classes that are lacking behind to be fixed. I agree tho what most said zerk is the one that need most fixes, Then pally need something added. But the tanks are not balanced atm as you claim.

I think its pretty much given zerkers need serious help. Every other fighter in game is used to maintank content except the zerker. ( I wouldnt give guards more dps with a shield they are fine).Zerkers need major changes to survivability and paladins can use a reliable stoneskin(Not for crusaders just paladins as that would just make shadowknights a better defnesive tank then paladins). Those are the major pressing issues for the fighter class as a whole.

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Old 01-17-2012, 05:25 PM   #34
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[email protected] wrote:

Bruener wrote:

  Unless of course the Crusader or Zerk is just that much better of a player. (Take a HINT Gungo)

Here is the HINT for you bruener DARKON has killed every encounter in game on his shadowknight(most of them he maintanked) just as I have killed every encounter on my bruiser(most of them I have maintanked). People are serving firsting content with a shadowknight maintank. Yesterday alone dark tanked soren and all of HM sullon on his shadowknight as we first pulled everything up to HM sullon. Thats all the facts you need to know to realize how much you suck at your class. So stop trying to jump on the zerker failboat because you as a player fail at playing a non overpowered class.

Here is the Fact Gungo none of you tools can name a single encounter in this game that would be a better choice to use either Crusader or Zerker to MT on versus a Brawler or Guard.  The other fact is there is arguably only a couple encounters that you could name since DoV that is better to use either Crusader or Zerk on to OT instead of either Brawler or Guard.

The fact is every Fighter could tank every mob in TSO as well.  So I guess everything was balanced than and we should revert back to that time period.

The fact is there is extreme disparity especially in overall damage taken and spike damage prevention.

I tanked HM EoW with a solo healer.  With even 30k HPS she could not solo heal me on the boss named.  Throw in our Bruiser and 7k HPS she was easily able to keep him up.

That is just in a heroic zone.  I could give you an example of every single encounter in this game and why it is such an advantage to use one of the "3-have's" tanks versus the "3-have-nots".  Its not just for MT'ing either.  Its just about every encounter since DoV that has OT'ing as well.

Its garbage and completely imbalanced.  The fact that your guild chooses not to use you is a direct representation on your tanking abilities.  Because realistically an average Brawler is an all around better choice over an exceptional Crusader or Zerk since DoV for any type of tanking.

The fact you even made their raid Roster is a testament of how much ahead Brawlers are over other Fighters.

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Old 01-17-2012, 06:13 PM   #35
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Bruener wrote:

I tanked HM EoW with a solo healer.  With even 30k HPS she could not solo heal me on the boss named.  Throw in our Bruiser and 7k HPS she was easily able to keep him up.

The fact you even made their raid Roster is a testament of how much ahead Brawlers are over other Fighters.

Dark cleared Hm EOW with a solo healer as maintank... Just saying

I know its amazing i made thier roster and yet they played me over MANY tanks since i been in guild including another several other brawlers. Sorry to burst you bubble sunshine but we have been looking for a 4th tank. Since i been in guild we have had (monks, bruisers, guards, shadowknights all try to be a sollid offtank for the guild and they NEED me to play my toon) I have no problems with my ability i know my strenghts and faults and I am fine with my ability and what i can do. I have never had an issue competeing with similar players of my class. You on the otherhand have  continually posted about how much you fail doing things that other players in your class has continually shown they are capable of.

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Old 01-17-2012, 06:55 PM   #36
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[email protected] wrote:

Bruener wrote:

I tanked HM EoW with a solo healer.  With even 30k HPS she could not solo heal me on the boss named.  Throw in our Bruiser and 7k HPS she was easily able to keep him up.

The fact you even made their raid Roster is a testament of how much ahead Brawlers are over other Fighters.

Dark cleared Hm EOW with a solo healer as maintank... Just saying

I know its amazing i made thier roster and yet they played me over MANY tanks since i been in guild including another several other brawlers. Sorry to burst you bubble sunshine but we have been looking for a 4th tank. Since i been in guild we have had (monks, bruisers, guards, shadowknights all try to be a sollid offtank for the guild and they NEED me to play my toon) I have no problems with my ability i know my strenghts and faults and I am fine with my ability and what i can do. I have never had an issue competeing with similar players of my class. You on the otherhand have  continually posted about how much you fail doing things that other players in your class has continually shown they are capable of.

Still waiting for that list of mobs since DoV that is better to use any tank besides a Brawler or Guard to MT on along with the list of encounters besides the 1 or 2 that have already been talked about that is better to use any other OT besides a Brawler or Guard on.

Stop dodging the question.

Waiting for you, Novusod, and any other Brawler/Guard that is arguing against changes to answer that simple question.

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Old 01-17-2012, 10:32 PM   #37
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Bruener wrote:

The fact is every Fighter could tank every mob in TSO as well.  So I guess everything was balanced than and we should revert back to that time period.

...

Still waiting for that list of mobs since DoV that is better to use any tank besides a Brawler or Guard to MT on along with the list of encounters besides the 1 or 2 that have already been talked about that is better to use any other OT besides a Brawler or Guard on.

Stop dodging the question.

Waiting for you, Novusod, and any other Brawler/Guard that is arguing against changes to answer that simple question.

This statement just shows what bias fool you are. Ballance is not about making every single encounter all about the SK like TSO was. Brawlers could not tank anything in TSO unless they had the defensive Avatar BP. The SK was super over powered back then everyone knows it.

DoV content especially hardmode drunder is very ballanced. I have already given you two examples where using the SK prefered over other tanks. Mystikus Terrorwing the best combo is guard MT with SK OT. Tyrax Terrolus one mob with no adds and the SK is clearly the best MT for it. Asking for more than these to be custom tailored to the strengths of the SK is just being a PIG.

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Old 01-17-2012, 10:54 PM   #38
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EDIT: Not worth continually arguing with the "Have" tanks especially when what I say is confirmed as a known issue.

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Old 01-18-2012, 11:45 PM   #39
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I've been mentioned by several parties, several times in this thread(Darkonx). I have a fully geared Shadowknight, and a fully geared Monk. Fighters are so ridiculously imbalanced that it makes me sick.

Shadowknights survivability is absolute trash when compared to a brawler or a guardian. Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.

I started to list abilities and try to compare but the truth is I can't. Fighter balance is so beyond broken right now I had to roll a monk if I wanted to stay the guilds maintank without crippling my raids progression. The skillgap between players is eclipsed SO much by class balance that it's absolutely unreal how the game has anything but brawlers and guardians still playing fighters.

Xelgad please for the love of god fix fighter balance.

Being able to crit heals of a numeric value (lifetaps/paladin heals/sk's reactive/paladins ward) would also help.

I'd say change those two things, in combat BL and crits on numeric heals, and then see how class balance looks. Right now it's pretty grim.

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Old 01-19-2012, 03:58 AM   #40
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Bruener wrote:

EDIT: Not worth continually arguing with the "Have" tanks especially when what I say is confirmed as a known issue.

This troll thread never should have been made in the first place. Just direct your /feedback to Xelgad he will know what to do with it.

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Old 01-19-2012, 04:47 AM   #41
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Novusod wrote:

Bruener wrote:

EDIT: Not worth continually arguing with the "Have" tanks especially when what I say is confirmed as a known issue.

This troll thread never should have been made in the first place. Just direct your /feedback to Xelgad he will know what to do with it.

I will take it slow this time and maybe then you will understand abit more. Ppl have sent feedback ppl have sent PM:s ppl have made threads you name it. But nothing happens. Is that so hard to understand? Im not sure HOW many time things have gotten ignored.

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Old 01-19-2012, 05:33 AM   #42
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Poor Netty. How little do you know that you can't see the forests for the trees. The arguements you are putting up here are not being ignored. They are being rejected. If your PMs and /feedback are written anything like the whiny hyperbole filled threads on this forum it is going to be rejected. This agruement that everything is broken and the ballance is the worst ever will completely discredit everything you say. You are spouting nonsense and it is not going to be taken seriously.

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Old 01-19-2012, 05:43 AM   #43
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Novusod wrote:

Poor Netty. How little do you know that you can't see the forests for the trees. The arguements you are putting up here are not being ignored. They are being rejected. If your PMs and /feedback are written anything like the whiny hyperbole filled threads on this forum it is going to be rejected. This agruement that everything is broken and the ballance is the worst ever will completely discredit everything you say. You are spouting nonsense and it is not going to be taken seriously.

And what do you know about how the PM:s did look? Nothing. And you proven here how much you know about anything. Everything is broken and unbalanced as proven to you a number of times. Just roll a zerk and try and raid with it and tank the same things as you do on your bruiser then come back and tell me again how balanced things are. This is no where near nonsense and if you did come out and play something els you would see that.

I never wanted brawlers nerfed but well now i do just since i know it will strike you hard if they do. So i guess i will start working to that now.

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Old 01-19-2012, 12:30 PM   #44
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Netty wrote:

Novusod wrote:

Poor Netty. How little do you know that you can't see the forests for the trees. The arguements you are putting up here are not being ignored. They are being rejected. If your PMs and /feedback are written anything like the whiny hyperbole filled threads on this forum it is going to be rejected. This agruement that everything is broken and the ballance is the worst ever will completely discredit everything you say. You are spouting nonsense and it is not going to be taken seriously.

And what do you know about how the PM:s did look? Nothing. And you proven here how much you know about anything. Everything is broken and unbalanced as proven to you a number of times. Just roll a zerk and try and raid with it and tank the same things as you do on your bruiser then come back and tell me again how balanced things are. This is no where near nonsense and if you did come out and play something els you would see that.

I never wanted brawlers nerfed but well now i do just since i know it will strike you hard if they do. So i guess i will start working to that now.

As I stated.  From the horses mouth it is a known issue.  These brawlers can keep pretending all they want but it is a fact and it is known by the devs how unbalanced things are right now.

Unfortunately it doesn't mean fixes are coming right away probably due to short staffing or something else unrelated to balance.

This of course just makes things even worse since everybody KNOWS the problems however we still keep plugging along through it.

BTW nice write up Dark.  My question is Gungo going to keep running his mouth now?  Obviously he was talking out the other end.

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Old 01-20-2012, 12:10 PM   #45
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Bruener wrote:

The best ever.  That is a good one.  You mean if half the Fighters completely own the end game tanking realm while the other half are fillers for when you can't find a Brawler or Guardian than yeah...that is just so balanced.

Really the only reason these posts seem to upset you so much is because you know that the nerf bat is going to be swinging your way.  It is long long overdue and the longer it takes the harder it usually falls.

Heroic is balanced.  End game is just aweful.

you should know of such things, you were on that side of the fence not long ago. but the nerf bat never did arrive, instead they bumped up the other classes and didn't bump up yours nearly so much the next round.

(be nice please)

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Old 01-20-2012, 12:49 PM   #46
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[email protected] wrote:

Bruener wrote:

The best ever.  That is a good one.  You mean if half the Fighters completely own the end game tanking realm while the other half are fillers for when you can't find a Brawler or Guardian than yeah...that is just so balanced.

Really the only reason these posts seem to upset you so much is because you know that the nerf bat is going to be swinging your way.  It is long long overdue and the longer it takes the harder it usually falls.

Heroic is balanced.  End game is just aweful.

you should know of such things, you were on that side of the fence not long ago. but the nerf bat never did arrive, instead they bumped up the other classes and didn't bump up yours nearly so much the next round.

(removed)

Actually since you have such a short memory Reflect was destroyed in DoV beta.  Not only that all the content suddenly required tools that Crusaders and Zerks didn't and don't have with continually 1 shot AEs that can be timed for a save with the addition of the casting bar at the end of SF.  They also nerfed mitigation, but unlike Brawlers the mitigation wasn't added to Plate tanks.  Content also pushed the strike through mechanic on everything, and it still is which lowers non-Brawlers avoidance significantly.  Meanwhile the addition of even more Block chance for all Fighters spread the gap even more on avoidance since Brawler block chance has a much lower cap so they get more per Block chance.  Also we can talk about using the MA mechanic more on mobs which completely favors higher avoidance tanks along with anything that procs from mobs.

Oh than on top of it they give junk for AAs, itemization neutered tank DPS in relation to where it was in SF, and they gave better AAs to Brawlers specifically to give them even more tools to handle the mechanics of DoV along with making sure they don't take any more damage per hit.

So what I see is a nerf to survivability specifically with making so Reflect can't be used as often and through the new mechanics introduced in DoV that some tanks had the tools to handle while others didn't.  I see a nerf to DPS in relation to raid DPS which in turn is a nerf to agro which for the Fighters that rely on DPS more than some was a direct nerf.

You can look at it anyway you want but the fact is through direct nerfs and through big mechanic changes and itemization changes there was a whole lot of nerfing going on which has completely unbalanced Fighters in end game content.

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Old 01-20-2012, 09:55 PM   #47
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you whine like you were bad off during that period, perhaps you were out there with that other guy wearing cloth and leather and moaning about survivability.

yeah, we all know it never happened, classes never get bumped up for expansions at a time nor do people admit that there is an overpowering class curve in this game...

reroll and suck it up, there is no amount of complaining that is going to change how it is.

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Old 01-20-2012, 10:44 PM   #48
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Let's remember to respect other players opinions. Thanks!

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Old 01-21-2012, 01:33 AM   #49
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Darkonx wrote:

Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.

Bloodletter is a 3 min recast. Min recast is 1.5 min Brawlers tenacity is a 5 min recast Min recast 2.5 minThere is no AA that reduces the recast specifically of tenacity.

Reuse is not lesser unless the toon has significant emphasis placed on reuse. As I said before with you bloodletter should be castable in combat.

But shadowknights are not broken as bruener claims. You have proved it yourself by tanking every named on your shadowknight in sullon's Hm. Many of which bruener claims he can not tank.

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Old 01-21-2012, 02:11 AM   #50
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Shadowknights aren't broken at all. This whole thread is a farce. I am watching an SK MT the Statue of Zek hardmode right as I type this.

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Old 01-21-2012, 11:27 AM   #51
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Novusod wrote:

Shadowknights aren't broken at all. This whole thread is a farce. I am watching an SK MT the Statue of Zek hardmode right as I type this.

Awesome that Statue has been nerfed down extreme amounts and your SK is actually geared past that tier of content!!!!   All must be balanced.

Nobody said they couldn't.  Just like Brawlers could tank mobs in TSO.  The difference is in how much easier it is for them and even more importantly how much easier it is for those supporting them compared to others.

Ran EoW HM again with a solo healer.  55k HPS couldn't keep me up on the second named.  50% avoidance.  Step in Brawler that needs about 7k HPS to do the same job easily.

Tanking raid mobs the damage taken difference is HUGE.  More importanly with how mechanics are the spike damage prevention tools are so key and the gap in who has what is the kicker.

There is a difference between broken and unbalanced.  In fact I haven't known a class in this game EVER that is "broken".  Brawlers tanked Avatars in TSO....and yet it was clear they needed some tweaks.  We had a Guard MT all of TSO and SF....and yet it was clear they needed some tweaks.  It is no different with todays game where Fighters in end game raiding are definitely not balanced.

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Old 01-21-2012, 11:35 AM   #52
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[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.

Bloodletter is a 3 min recast. Min recast is 1.5 min Brawlers tenacity is a 5 min recast Min recast 2.5 minThere is no AA that reduces the recast specifically of tenacity.

Reuse is not lesser unless the toon has significant emphasis placed on reuse. As I said before with you bloodletter should be castable in combat.

But shadowknights are not broken as bruener claims. You have proved it yourself by tanking every named on your shadowknight in sullon's Hm. Many of which bruener claims he can not tank.

Again, who said couldn't?  Just like Dark pointed out the difference in how much easier it is on a Brawler though is so huge that why would you not use a Brawler?  We have 2 Brawlers on the roster since DoV simply because of that reason.  Plug in a non-Brawler/Guard tank and all you are doing is creating more work for the support.

The only reason Dark doesn't use his Monk full time is because he likes his SK.  It is his class and he has played it a long time.  He would scrap his Monk in a heart beat if he wasn't needed for progression.

Nothing is broken, its just all completely imbalanced.

If any of you guys really think differently just go ahead and have a conversation with Dark about the difference on his SK versus his Monk.  Basically....the Monk=God.

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Old 01-21-2012, 06:29 PM   #53
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.

Bloodletter is a 3 min recast. Min recast is 1.5 min Brawlers tenacity is a 5 min recast Min recast 2.5 minThere is no AA that reduces the recast specifically of tenacity.

Reuse is not lesser unless the toon has significant emphasis placed on reuse. As I said before with you bloodletter should be castable in combat.

But shadowknights are not broken as bruener claims. You have proved it yourself by tanking every named on your shadowknight in sullon's Hm. Many of which bruener claims he can not tank.

Again, who said couldn't?  Just like Dark pointed out the difference in how much easier it is on a Brawler though is so huge that why would you not use a Brawler?  We have 2 Brawlers on the roster since DoV simply because of that reason.  Plug in a non-Brawler/Guard tank and all you are doing is creating more work for the support.

The only reason Dark doesn't use his Monk full time is because he likes his SK.  It is his class and he has played it a long time.  He would scrap his Monk in a heart beat if he wasn't needed for progression.

Nothing is broken, its just all completely imbalanced.

If any of you guys really think differently just go ahead and have a conversation with Dark about the difference on his SK versus his Monk.  Basically....the Monk=God.

Actually you have said in the past you couldnt tank several named and you had to have a brawler tank it to kill it. My point is So far everything in this game is killable with a shadowknight. They are NOT broken. The only point where shadowknights become slightly less ideal is certain high end raid npcs. Most of the issues with a shadowknight are fixed with the mythical cloak a 3 min base recast 3 positional MAssive encounter hate proc and 40% damage reduction that is the highest damage reduction in game for 8 secs. The only issue that i can see being fixed is allowing bloodletter castable in combat. Yes its silly that its on a mythical cloak but the only disparity for fighters exist in high end raiding anyway.

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Old 01-23-2012, 04:27 AM   #54
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.

Bloodletter is a 3 min recast. Min recast is 1.5 min Brawlers tenacity is a 5 min recast Min recast 2.5 minThere is no AA that reduces the recast specifically of tenacity.

Reuse is not lesser unless the toon has significant emphasis placed on reuse. As I said before with you bloodletter should be castable in combat.

But shadowknights are not broken as bruener claims. You have proved it yourself by tanking every named on your shadowknight in sullon's Hm. Many of which bruener claims he can not tank.

Again, who said couldn't?  Just like Dark pointed out the difference in how much easier it is on a Brawler though is so huge that why would you not use a Brawler?  We have 2 Brawlers on the roster since DoV simply because of that reason.  Plug in a non-Brawler/Guard tank and all you are doing is creating more work for the support.

The only reason Dark doesn't use his Monk full time is because he likes his SK.  It is his class and he has played it a long time.  He would scrap his Monk in a heart beat if he wasn't needed for progression.

Nothing is broken, its just all completely imbalanced.

If any of you guys really think differently just go ahead and have a conversation with Dark about the difference on his SK versus his Monk.  Basically....the Monk=God.

Classes aren't even remotely balanced. I've played both for every DOV raid mob that my guild has killed. I even two boxed them for the first HM named in Tallons.

Shadowknights are neutered. We need to be able to recast bloodletter in combat, and we need to be able to crit devour vitae, and tap veins.

Change those two things, then maybe SOME balance can start to be reinstated. We already take 5x (no exaggeration 7k vs 35k damage per second) doing zones like HM EOW. Just fix it already. It's dumb. It makes the game not fun.

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Old 01-23-2012, 07:16 AM   #55
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Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.

I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.

 

Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

 

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Old 01-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #56
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[email protected] wrote:

Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.

I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.

Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

Truth!!

That is where this game has become so messed up. It seems that evey fighter issue is being catered to the end game raiding while the casual players (raid or non raiders) take the hit the hardest.

I still stand by the idea that making all six fighters to be solely raid main tank material is what is hurting fighters in the other areas of play. It basically pigeon holes them all into one area of game play that as stated before only has room for two maybe three.

Even priests can step out of their roles as healers and be a decent damage class. Even though damage isn't their true role they still have the option to do it. Heck look at the beastlord. They can either be very good damage or support by choice.

I have never understood why all priest abilities damage or heal can still critical and that is acceptable yet for fighters (mainly the crusaders) having the ability to crit heal and crit damage is unacceptable! That to me is just plum tupid.

Even though this game has aged there needs to be someone that understands how fighters operate and monitor them. This is a continual operation that does not stop and applies to all areas of game play. It suprises me that I see abilities/aa's on my zerker, bruiser, monk, and sk that were decent years ago yet in todays game their use is impractical.

I hope that the fighter community will once again have some communication with an SOE associate that is willing to visit us.

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Old 01-23-2012, 08:28 PM   #57
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[email protected] wrote:

Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.

I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.

Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.

We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.

I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.

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Old 01-24-2012, 11:04 AM   #58
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Netty wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.

I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.

Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.

We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.

I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.

Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?

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Old 01-24-2012, 11:25 AM   #59
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[email protected] wrote:

Netty wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.

I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.

Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.

We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.

I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.

Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?

Im not trying to be rude. All tanks can atm tank all heroics and most EM. If all tanks was balanced in HM raids they would be even more balanced for EM. Sure some tanks solo better with heals and so on but you can still do it. And the only tank class that do lack abit in soloing is guardian. So yes Hard mode raiding is whats importent here. Since then all tanks could tank everthing some abit easier on some stuff but still would be able to do it.

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Old 01-24-2012, 01:12 PM   #60
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Netty wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Netty wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.

I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.

Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.

We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.

I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.

Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?

Im not trying to be rude. All tanks can atm tank all heroics and most EM. If all tanks was balanced in HM raids they would be even more balanced for EM. Sure some tanks solo better with heals and so on but you can still do it. And the only tank class that do lack abit in soloing is guardian. So yes Hard mode raiding is whats importent here. Since then all tanks could tank everthing some abit easier on some stuff but still would be able to do it.

The last time I played the most of the EM content and pretty much *all* the instances could be tanked quite successfully by a hate bufffed scout... or even a hate buffed mage.

Quite frankly the only thing which separated the fighters from other classes was snap agro (of which not all fighters had such an abundance of skills),  To balance the fighters over such easy content is just rediculous as for most of it you don't even *need* a fighter. The only time you do is for when the incoming damage becomes too great that

* The mob cannot face the raid so reliable methods of regaining agro is a must* The incoming damage is so great that you need methods of suriving it not avaialable to other classes.

In short you need snaps and Immunities/Damage reduction buttons to click; and fighter balancing only really needs to happen at endgame down... the rest of the abilities/difference are just flavour.

There are a few methods to balance this:

1. Some tanks have more snaps than others but less immunities meaning a combination of a snap tank and a immunity tank is ideal. <--- this can fail drastically if the scripting and/or AoE timers line up badly leading to a combination of luck and/or using the snap based tanks and more defensive healers

2. All tanks have the same number of immunities and snaps so they could theortically perform MT and OT duties without issues. <-- could be boring still doesn't solve only needing 1 fighter

3. Some tanks have abilities taliored towards suriviving and holding multiple mobs others single target based <--- this method has been tried and failed

4. Some tanks have a slight defensive edge and trade significant DPS for increased hate. Other tanks defensive skills are less effective but gain a significant DPS and buffing advantage <---- this method only works if fighter DPS in general was significant  and the defensive abilities of the more offensive tanks cannot be overcome by the rest of the raid (tried and failed in TSO)

And then there is #5... my personal favourite:

5. THREE tanks must all work together to join into the "main tank"

- One tank will act as a huge hate siphon generating silly amounts of hate and doing a lot of DPS.- One tank would be able to deal in snaps; memwipes and blurs whilst doing damage- One tank will act as the defensive and throw up immunities at the right time etc

The defensive tank recieves the hate from the hate tank allowing them to ignore their own personal DPS.The snap tanks rescues all rescue the mob ONTO the main tankThe hate tank only cares about one thing... hate and DPS which are transfered to the main tank

So three tanks in tandem would work together to overcome something which they could not alone... as long as all the easy/instance content was tankable by *all* tanks the additional immunity/hate/snaps given to a few tanks would not be needed until the hardmode content starts.

e.g. A Guardian tanks using his supeirior stoneskins receiving huge amounts of threats from a shadowknight in the mage group and a Monk assists in snapping back the mob as it memwipes consistantly.

or A Paladin holds the line using his defensive healing power to good use whilst the Zerker carves into the mobs generating massive amounts of hate and the bruiser darts around snaping back stray mobs.

3 happy fighters in the raid without the need for needless scripting of adds, charms, co-operative strikes etc which force multiple fighters.

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