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Old 08-28-2011, 01:20 PM   #61
LygerT

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Bremer wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You're hitting on something pretty key here: it's not the classes, it's the content.

Hardhitting raid mobs has been the raid content since T5, not since Velious. If this expansion was SF and all tanks had the same abilities people would still pick a Guard or Monk or Bruiser, because they have tons of stuff for damage immunites. Even if it was TSO they'd pick the same classes to handle Deathtouches, etc.

The balance in SF was ok, maybe Guards were lacking and Berserkers having only one defensive ability was pretty stupid design. But then they nerfed the crap out of Adrenaline and made Berserkers worthless to deal with hard hitting mobs. They changed Crusader's LC so that you couldn't modify the recast, they removed the SK cheat for 3 Bloodletter triggers and gave Crusaders bad AAs. So 3 classes stagnate or fall, Guardians get better and Brawlers, that were already very good MT choices got boosts with more physical mitigation, more stoneskins, more DI, more DPS support.

When you are on almost even playing field and 3 classes get boosts and 3 not it's not the content that favors 3 classes.

i think we have a winner.

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Old 08-28-2011, 01:33 PM   #62
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What I don't understand is that from what I have been reading in other posts, you hear some pallys praise amends and other threads like this  one  basically it's at best unreliable. And the brawler class is so OP due to it's 4 snaps. Believe it or not the zerker class has 4 positional snaps as well. And In the right order I can get back on top of the hate list fairly quickly, from a hate dump. And in the event I am not able to my OT will grab it, (which is a pally btw) Until I have a snap up. Now I'm not saying the pally needs one more or not. Or which class is perceived to be broken or not either.  Each tank has their good points and bad points. And faildozer saying I derailed the thread stating the facts, is a bit low isn't it?  I am telling you that you needing to be at the top of the agro list after an agro dump is absurd. When you can use two tanks to bounce the agro back and forth between the tanks. But you come on and whine about having not enough snaps. Asking for more would lead to the pally being OP'ed wouldn't it? 
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Old 08-28-2011, 01:46 PM   #63
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and so do guards..

i can see that being one snap shy of all the rest would make life more difficult but most can figure out ways of dealing without. so long as the rest of the class is deemed ok, which doesn't appear to be the case with paladins, SK or zerkers still.

give paladins the one snap they lack and you can bet that they will be right back here in a day's time wanting better healing tools/survivability. don't downplay how uneven things still are, regardless of us all saying that things are better balanced than they have been in a while.

you know this, because watching leather out tank you with more versatility just doesn't seem right still. sure, they needed a place in the ranks but not at the top with all the rest that they have to offer as well. i'd much rather see a simplified 3 tank classes, very closely to evenly balanced than 6 tanks that are spread all over the board for different areas.

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Old 08-28-2011, 02:11 PM   #64
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What versatility is that, exactly? What else do brawlers have to offer besides tanking? Our DPS is nothing special this expansion, even with Combat Mastery we wouldn't be getting any more raid slots than we ever did in the past due to the fact that scout/mage DPS has advanced far more than fighter DPS since launch of DoV. We have no utility to speak of other than what all fighters get.

Are you saying that you wouldn't have a problem with another plate tank out tanking you? I'm starting to think that this is simply an issue of plate tanks being upset that brawlers are actually good MTs now, and that they actually have 5 classes to compete with for that spot instead of the 3 they've been used to for 6 years. Get used to leather out tanking you in certain situations, because that's how the game should work. Sorry if I have trouble feeling any sympathy for the folks who had written-off my favorite class years ago.

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Old 08-28-2011, 02:37 PM   #65
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[email protected] wrote:

What I don't understand is that from what I have been reading in other posts, you hear some pallys praise amends and other threads like this  one  basically it's at best unreliable. And the brawler class is so OP due to it's 4 snaps. Believe it or not the zerker class has 4 positional snaps as well. And In the right order I can get back on top of the hate list fairly quickly, from a hate dump. And in the event I am not able to my OT will grab it, (which is a pally btw) Until I have a snap up. Now I'm not saying the pally needs one more or not. Or which class is perceived to be broken or not either.  Each tank has their good points and bad points. And faildozer saying I derailed the thread stating the facts, is a bit low isn't it?  I am telling you that you needing to be at the top of the agro list after an agro dump is absurd. When you can use two tanks to bounce the agro back and forth between the tanks. But you come on and whine about having not enough snaps. Asking for more would lead to the pally being OP'ed wouldn't it? 

Monks have an additional ability that gives them rescues on their regular taunts for 24 seconds every 3 minutes. They also have peel. Berserkers have insolence, jeering onslaught, cry of the warrior, sneering assault and rescue. 5 positions, 3 positions, 2 positions, 3 positions and 3 positions respectively. Paladins have Holy ground, sneering assault and rescue for 1 position, 3 positions and 3 postions respectively. Reworking holy ground would be fine without overpowering the class because as it is right now its not much more than a dps tool. It has a short range and requires you to be standing still to cast, its only saving grace is it is on a relatively short reuse timer. 

Again, amends is a great tool for holding threat but it does little to nothing when we need to get the mob back fast and the class is balanced around having it for generating threat. Our abilities hit for a lot less than other tanks because of this, which i am fine with. Our class was also only given 2 snaps because we were designed around having a 24 position rescue with holy ground which was nerfed to a 1 position increase.

This isnt a whine, like i said the lack of snaps is not even my main concern. I would like to have better survivability because right now as a 'defensive' tank we dont have much to deal with deathtouches and massive incoming damage that other tanks have. Asking for attention to a class that was balanced with little in terms of defensive utility because we were given heals which are useless in most scenarios and do nothing to prevent the incoming damage or even mitigate it. We were given less snaps because we originally had a 24 position rescue and that was all that was needed for the content back then, now when there are even more memwipes in the game it is only a 1 position rescue. Asking sony to address these issues isnt farfetched and it certainly wont make paladins OP'd or the flavor of the month if they are fixed.

And edi, what you did was derail the thread with the initial comment of,"Seriously I don't understand why you as a pally are complaining about snaps and reuse. Your class has the best aggro tool ingame period, slap amends on your raid Brigg and you could almost go afk while tanking. I belive it's why your class doesnt have as many snaps as the other classes. But that's my opinion..." You obviously have never played a paladin or you would realise how ridiculous that comment is especially when talking about dealing with memwipes. Sorry if you felt that was low of me to say but you did derail the thread at that point.

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Old 08-28-2011, 03:20 PM   #66
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

What versatility is that, exactly? What else do brawlers have to offer besides tanking? Our DPS is nothing special this expansion, even with Combat Mastery we wouldn't be getting any more raid slots than we ever did in the past due to the fact that scout/mage DPS has advanced far more than fighter DPS since launch of DoV. We have no utility to speak of other than what all fighters get.

Are you saying that you wouldn't have a problem with another plate tank out tanking you? I'm starting to think that this is simply an issue of plate tanks being upset that brawlers are actually good MTs now, and that they actually have 5 classes to compete with for that spot instead of the 3 they've been used to for 6 years. Get used to leather out tanking you in certain situations, because that's how the game should work. Sorry if I have trouble feeling any sympathy for the folks who had written-off my favorite class years ago.

versatility doesn't just come from raiding, i can do much more on my brawler than just raid with it. even though for the most part these arguments are simply about raid positions. if you are exceptional at levelling, grouping and raiding then you have a more than rounded class now than most have dealt with over the years which is why guards had been the #1 goto tank for many years because they were a pita to solo or duo with, which isn't the case anymore.

but you still missed my point, 6 tanks is never going to work for balancing in this game and it never has.

my purpose isn't to nerf brawlers but to increase survivability of plate to be equal to leather now. but with 4 plate tanks all fighting to be the best, see the previous statement.

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Old 08-28-2011, 05:03 PM   #67
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BChizzle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.

Are you starting to get the hint yet?  Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is.  The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.

Cry more, brawlers just got nerfed by devs getting rid of strikethrough buffs off of the x2 debuff yet you are still crying.  Take away coop strike and a crusader can tank everything including adds.

Have quite a ways to go.  Guess what, we killed 3 new mobs in Sullons HM...and same old mechanic that you are a Brawler or Guard or you die.

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Old 08-28-2011, 05:09 PM   #68
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[email protected] wrote:

I find it funny that when SK where on top of the world Bruener screamed and yelled tanks balanced better then ever before. Now they they are not the king of all he is complaining about tank balance. But to the point, Tanks will never be balanced in this game. There is simply to many of them with every one of them wanting the spotlight. The EQ2 team don't have the balls to do what needs to be done so just get use to king of tanks being rotated through each subclass.

Actually, not suprising is your memory is extremely bad.  Yes in SF which a lot of the tanks and individuals will tell you was the best Fighter balance out there....I defended my class against morons that did not understand how well things were.  It is the fault of people like you that caused the mess of DoV, and you will really feel it when it ping pongs back to a flip flop on tanks because SOE will over due it and not get it right again for probably a couple xpacs.

Tanks were so balanced and all were very useful in SF once Guards got their changes.  BTW I find it extremely ironic that you are trying to call me out when I was actually the individual that made extensive posts and pushed for some nice tweaks to the Guard class.  Thank goodness SOE didn't listen to the few of you complainers that just wanted more DPS.  You guys would be back at the bottom if they would have.

SOE is making mechanics that can one shot tanks because they want tanks and healers to be forced to use thier saves for those times.  3 Fighters have a lot more tools to deal with that and so balance is garbage right now.  Do not expect that type of mechanic to change simply because it is what SOE wants to see being proactive as a Fighter/Healer.  You know, the whole reason they added the cast bar in.

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Old 08-28-2011, 05:11 PM   #69
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Bremer wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You're hitting on something pretty key here: it's not the classes, it's the content.

Hardhitting raid mobs has been the raid content since T5, not since Velious. If this expansion was SF and all tanks had the same abilities people would still pick a Guard or Monk or Bruiser, because they have tons of stuff for damage immunites. Even if it was TSO they'd pick the same classes to handle Deathtouches, etc.

The balance in SF was ok, maybe Guards were lacking and Berserkers having only one defensive ability was pretty stupid design. But then they nerfed the crap out of Adrenaline and made Berserkers worthless to deal with hard hitting mobs. They changed Crusader's LC so that you couldn't modify the recast, they removed the SK cheat for 3 Bloodletter triggers and gave Crusaders bad AAs. So 3 classes stagnate or fall, Guardians get better and Brawlers, that were already very good MT choices got boosts with more physical mitigation, more stoneskins, more DI, more DPS support.

When you are on almost even playing field and 3 classes get boosts and 3 not it's not the content that favors 3 classes.

Echo, echo...echo.

No seriously this is exactly it and as I said in my above post it is much more than a mechanic issue.  It is all about 3 tanks have lots more tools than the 3 other tanks....and not giving up anything to have it.

Sad that despite a lot of feedback from Crusaders I know about how junky the AAs we were getting were and how they destroyed LC as an ability to spec....they didn't listen.

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Old 08-28-2011, 06:48 PM   #70
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Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.

Are you starting to get the hint yet?  Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is.  The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.

Cry more, brawlers just got nerfed by devs getting rid of strikethrough buffs off of the x2 debuff yet you are still crying.  Take away coop strike and a crusader can tank everything including adds.

Have quite a ways to go.  Guess what, we killed 3 new mobs in Sullons HM...and same old mechanic that you are a Brawler or Guard or you die.

Except that your brawler was also dying all over the place.

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Old 08-28-2011, 07:11 PM   #71
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Bruener wrote:

I can tell you what it should be.

MT - Paladin/Guard

OT - SK/Zerk

CC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk

(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.

The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.

But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".

Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.

Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.

But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))

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Old 08-28-2011, 07:43 PM   #72
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BChizzle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.

Are you starting to get the hint yet?  Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is.  The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.

Cry more, brawlers just got nerfed by devs getting rid of strikethrough buffs off of the x2 debuff yet you are still crying.  Take away coop strike and a crusader can tank everything including adds.

Have quite a ways to go.  Guess what, we killed 3 new mobs in Sullons HM...and same old mechanic that you are a Brawler or Guard or you die.

Except that your brawler was also dying all over the place.

Amazing, I know, right?  Who would expect a Brawler to actually die to any type of big hit, right?

So imagine how any other tank is going to tank it if a Brawler had a hard time actually handling the AE spikes.

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Old 08-28-2011, 07:43 PM   #73
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

I can tell you what it should be.

MT - Paladin/Guard

OT - SK/Zerk

CC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk

(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.

The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.

But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".

Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.

Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.

But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))

Than its simple really.  All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.

Than it can be balanced for progression.

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Old 08-28-2011, 08:52 PM   #74
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

I can tell you what it should be.

MT - Paladin/Guard

OT - SK/Zerk

CC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk

(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.

The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.

But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".

Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.

Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.

But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))

Than its simple really.  All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.

Than it can be balanced for progression.

"Emergency" tanking is a nonexistent, pretend role, and it always has been.  Offtanks take over in an emergency, there's no specialized position for brawlers and there never was.

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Old 08-28-2011, 09:40 PM   #75
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

I can tell you what it should be.

MT - Paladin/Guard

OT - SK/Zerk

CC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk

(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.

The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.

But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".

Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.

Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.

But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))

Than its simple really.  All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.

Than it can be balanced for progression.

"Emergency" tanking is a nonexistent, pretend role, and it always has been.  Offtanks take over in an emergency, there's no specialized position for brawlers and there never was.

TBH SK's should be the emergency tanks since they fit that role oh so well.

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Old 08-28-2011, 09:49 PM   #76
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SKs are emergency tanks!

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Old 08-28-2011, 10:35 PM   #77
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

I can tell you what it should be.

MT - Paladin/Guard

OT - SK/Zerk

CC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk

(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.

The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.

But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".

Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.

Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.

But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))

Than its simple really.  All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.

Than it can be balanced for progression.

"Emergency" tanking is a nonexistent, pretend role, and it always has been.  Offtanks take over in an emergency, there's no specialized position for brawlers and there never was.

TBH SK's should be the emergency tanks since they fit that role oh so well.

Sweet.  Well than to start I need to have all my temp abilities reuse cut completely in half.  Than I need a lot more hate positional abilities to pick things up faster than anybody else.

Oh wait.  Than that puts SKs right in the position of Brawlers which breaks content.

Whats sad is one of you knows exactly what I am talking about but just claims ignorance to be OP'd.  The other one of you really doesn't have a clue.

It really is only a matter of time because now it is not just me that sees how ridiculous the balance is.  It is basically anybody that is in real progression.

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Old 08-28-2011, 10:38 PM   #78
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

SKs are emergency tanks!

LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though.  WOOT!!!!

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:01 PM   #79
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

SKs are emergency tanks!

LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though.  WOOT!!!!

E-tank still isn't a real position.  And which am I, ignorant or dastardly?

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:53 PM   #80
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

I can tell you what it should be.

MT - Paladin/Guard

OT - SK/Zerk

CC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk

(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.

The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.

But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".

Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.

Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.

But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))

Than its simple really.  All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.

Than it can be balanced for progression.

(( What is this role of "CC and Emergency tanking"? I am a main tank or an offtank, same as every other tank, of any of the six fighter classes. Stop making stuff up.

Basically, you just want your class to be the "god class" again. We can all see right through that, Bruener. You want us back in the days where people said "Brawler? What use are they? We want a real tank, thanks" whenever you offered to tank for a group. That is not going to happen.

So yes, it's simple alright. Things are pretty balanced now for heroic groups and easier raids. Most players of all the classes are actually pretty happy right now. We all have a role and we don't get continually rejected, any of us. You are not giving genuine feedback.

You are just deliberately lieing, and calling for nerfs to other classes based on those lies. ))

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Old 08-29-2011, 03:56 AM   #81
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

SKs are emergency tanks!

LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though.  WOOT!!!!

Furor and Bloodletter did it's job on Saturday! That is more tools than I had to work with in TSO!

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Old 08-29-2011, 05:32 AM   #82
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Corydonn wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

SKs are emergency tanks!

LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though.  WOOT!!!!

Furor and Bloodletter did it's job on Saturday! That is more tools than I had to work with in TSO!

This grats Duele on being the emergency tank of choice, since you were pushing so hard for that role to exist enjoy filling it!

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Old 08-29-2011, 10:45 AM   #83
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

SKs are emergency tanks!

LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though.  WOOT!!!!

E-tank still isn't a real position.  And which am I, ignorant or dastardly?

I think you already know which one you are, or maybe you don't realize that too.

Notice how the label is Emergency/CC tank.  That is a very real position and one that Brawlers have always been phenomenal at.  In SF having a Bruiser that could CC encounters was a huge advantage in knocking down progression mobs.

There is a reason that Brawlers get more snap type abilities, have abilities to drop mobs, have abilities to make sure they take no damage while they do it, have the best utility to put on another tank while they tank, have hate transfer, superior intercedes, etc etc etc.

CC has always been important and Brawlers are the masters of it.  Now they simply have the abilities to own that niche plus their survivibility was bumped to own every other niche.  No other tank has the tools to be pushed into that position...they were not built that way.  If SOE deems they want to give other tanks as many tools than it would probably balance tanks because everybody would have those fast reuse abilities that are owning the game right now.  Its not very healthy for game mechanics though.

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Old 08-29-2011, 11:44 AM   #84
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Main Tank - Bruiser / Monk

Off Tank - Bruiser / Monk / Guardian

Emergency Tank - Shadowknight

Masochist Tank - Berserker

Special Tank - Paladin

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Old 08-29-2011, 12:31 PM   #85
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BChizzle wrote:

Corydonn wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

SKs are emergency tanks!

LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though.  WOOT!!!!

Furor and Bloodletter did it's job on Saturday! That is more tools than I had to work with in TSO!

This grats Duele on being the emergency tank of choice, since you were pushing so hard for that role to exist enjoy filling it!

Hey, why don't you go ahead and let us know what you think SOEs vision on Tanks is?  Because surely it is not Brawlers best at everything.

So give us your great opinion on it and than let us know what they should do to get it to balanced.

There is an obvious issue with Crusaders and Beserkers right now (although not real sure about Beserkers after the recent changes).

So, share.  Because unless you think it is ok that Brawlers own every position in raids than you should be able to draw some conclusions on what needs to change.

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Old 08-29-2011, 01:05 PM   #86
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Considering I didn't want this thread to derail to this degree... I wasn’t going to post. Considering it has already been derailed to the point where a dev will not actually post here I might as well throw my 2 cents in.

Guardians – Still a viable choice as main tank. Designed as a defensive tank and given the tools to do just that. They have enough positional agro to get a mob back when it is needed until fights last too long (though I don’t actually think that is bad). The DPS of the class is a bit lower than the other tanks but as a general rule they take a bit less damage as well. As a whole, Guardians are a good balancing point. I would actually like to see a bit DPS for desirability reasons but over all still a good tank.

Berserkers – The only role I have seen for Berserkers in this expansion is off tank. From what I have seen the class only needs a few changes to bring it back on par. Given that in the past Berserkers have always been a more damage focused class I am going to say that they need to be given a boost in this area. 100% aoe auto attack just isn’t all it used to be. Considering 3 (and some times 4) of the tank classes can out dps a berserker in a single target and still be about the same or higher in an aoe fight, they need a boost to dps or more defensive tools. From what I have read (though I do not ever talk for another class community) the preferred approach would be to increase dps. There is more ways to do this then I care to explain. Although another way to mitigate a huge hit would also increase the desirability in a raid.

Shadowknights – Great for groups but the desirability for a raid position has fallen some, still a good choice for an off tank role. Shadowknights at one point were an amazing dps machine and could still keep up with the incoming damage in a raid. This naturally made them very desirable for just about any tank role in a raid. The damage of the class was brought down but the defense of the class remained about unchanged. In current content they can’t withstand damage of the hardest raid content. Again I do not speak for any other class community but from what I can tell the preferred changes would be to increase dps again. Even if this is the case and the damage is increased it would still be great to see one more tool to live through a nasty frontal aoe or death touch.

Paladins – Great for groups and easy mode raids but no place for the hardest content. Though in their current state they are the most broken of the classes, very little needs to change in order to fix them. The dps of Paladins is right where it needs to be. However for a defensive tank they can’t survive the damage of the hardest content. Arguably the best at sustaining agro (and undisputed in non ideal situations) they lack in the ability to regain the hate if it is lost. Though a huge pain I would only say they need maybe one more snap in order to fix this. As I am a paladin I would say this is not a huge concern in every fight. Again the biggest flaw of the class is the ability to live threw a series of attacks that land every 45 seconds. Fixing Devine Aura so that it works for the all of the damage and not just the damage less than 50% would actually go a long way to help both the Shadowknight and the Paladin to survive the massive damage in the current content. Another change would still be needed in order to rotate threw the timers of the aoe or death touch (though would not need to be nearly as strong as fixing Devine Aura, maybe just a 2 hit magic only on stonewall as an aa choice or something along those lines). All in all the class only needs a couple of changes to bring them back to a defensive tank in the end game.

Bruisers – Great choice for a main tank or an off tank role. All in all I feel Bruisers are very close to where they should be. Slightly less capable than their counterpart of surviving the massive damage of a main tank spot able none the less. Given that fact I do feel a bruiser could use a boost in the dps that can provide to a raid. The class sacrifices a huge portion of their survivability in order to do the extra damage when they would like to. The increase however is not enough of a gain. Simply increase the dps that a Bruiser can provide in the offensive would be a good move.

Monks – A great choice for main tank and for off tank. Yes I do understand that it is the current content that has placed the monk in the position that they are in. However I feel that they should remain unchanged. I agree that all the tanks should have chance at landing a role in a raid force. Even though a monk is the best choice for main tank at this point they are still not the best choice for grouping as some of the other classes can tank in a less ideal set up. Don’t change monks…

In summary:

Guardian – small boost to dps

Berserker – large increase to dps and a small increase in spike damage survivability

Shadowknight – large increase to dps and a small increase to spike damage survivability

Paladin – large increase to spike damage survivability and a small increase to snap agro

Bruiser – small to large increase to offensive dps

Monk – leave them alone, there fine

All of the above changes are only true if the content remains the same. Changing the content would help in most cases. However I would rather the classes changed to the above as I actually feel the difficulty of raids will scale better if you did.

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Old 08-29-2011, 01:22 PM   #87
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Nice analyses Buzzing. Also there have bin several very good points in here by The_Cheeseman and Vinka. But this is the way that I see thing and I understand I may be wrong in several points here, just my 2cp. This is the way I see the major tanking rolls in the game atm. First it seams the Dives are trying to get 3-4 tank in each raid, so I am going to assume that we are planning for 4 tank, one per group. G1, MT Roll to deal with 1 mob at a time that hits hard. G2, OT1 First stay defensive, to pick up adds as they come and then assist on the MT’s named. OR to tank a 2nd Named as needed. G3/4, OT2/3 First to stay offensive, assist the OT1 picking up adds and dpsing as much as needed. If something happens to MT, this roll moves up to OT1 till MT gets back up. OR tank the 3rd Named as needed. Using this as a basic outline the classes that “should” best fir into these rolls “should” be MT Guard, Monk, Pally. OT Zerker, SK, Bruiser. Pally’s probably need to help fir there roll but the rest seem to be doing well. This is also given that any of the tanks can do the others roll given a bit of support from the raid but it should be a bit tougher. Outside of broken mobs in the HM Drunder zones it looks like this is working ok.
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:30 PM   #88
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Bruener wrote:

Hey, why don't you go ahead and let us know what you think SOEs vision on Tanks is?  Because surely it is not Brawlers best at everything.

So give us your great opinion on it and than let us know what they should do to get it to balanced.

There is an obvious issue with Crusaders and Beserkers right now (although not real sure about Beserkers after the recent changes).

So, share.  Because unless you think it is ok that Brawlers own every position in raids than you should be able to draw some conclusions on what needs to change.

(( Still lieing I see, Bruener.

Brawlers are NOT best at everything. Indeed, they are still very much the worst at some things.

As group tank, which is what I am almost every day, compared to plate tanks of equivalent gear, I still cannot generate the same AE aggro generation as any plate tank. Sure, I can go to contested Kael or Throne of Storms or Fortress Spires and tank the zone ... if I have a dirge, a coercer and a large hate transfer scout with me, piece of cake, I have all the defensive tools I need to stay alive and then I have the hate.

But what about when I want to tank those places and I cannot get those hate classes huh? I'm useless, stuck LFG. Any group will take that pally with amends, or that SK or Berserker with their massive AE-aggro generation, over me, anytime. This is the *reality* amongst the normal playerbase. Heh, I was in a x2 recently with an equivalently geared SK, and we tried to split tank two mobs. We couldn't, because he was generating so much aggro, since I didn't have a dirge in my OT group, I couldn't keep mine off him! But some idiots keep saying MY class is the one overpowered. Not from where I am standing it isn't!

Why do I not complain about this more vocally? Because it's part of the balance that my AE hate is poor but my snaps are good, that my mitigation is lower but my avoidance is higher, and other issues. That's the idea of having different classes, with choices to be made. And .. I can form my own groups, and just have to wait to get the classes I need. Whereas as an SK, Duele can do any of those zones without those hate classes - and hold aggro EASILY.

But you want SK to be a god-class, best at everything, and monks and bruisers back on the scrapheap. It is not going to happen.

And you seem to be talking about high-end hardmode raids only, and requesting class changes based on those, and forgetting they involve only 1% of the playerbase. That's right, mess the whole game up for all players who are not hardmode raiders, so you can have a godmode raidclass.

Stop lieing. ))

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Old 08-29-2011, 01:35 PM   #89
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

But what about when I want to tank those places and I cannot get those hate classes huh? I'm useless, stuck LFG. Any group will take that pally with amends, or that SK or Berserker with their massive AE-aggro generation, over me, anytime. This is the *reality* amongst the normal playerbase. Heh, I was in a x2 recently with an equivalently geared SK, and we tried to split tank two mobs. We couldn't, because he was generating so much aggro, since I didn't have a dirge in my OT group, I couldn't keep mine off him! But some idiots keep saying MY class is the one overpowered. Not from where I am standing it isn't!

I mentioned this in my post above, if most agree with it I will change the first post.

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Old 08-29-2011, 01:56 PM   #90
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I think the fact they every class, indeed every person who is arguing in this thread is saying pallys need more help in MTing (surviving) says a lot more than the argument themselves.

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