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Old 08-27-2011, 12:57 AM   #31
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Paladins have 3 snaps:

Rescue: 3 hate positions to a single target on a base 5 minute timer.

Sneering Assault: 3 hate positions to a single target on a 3 minute timer.

Holy Ground: 1 hate position to targets in area of affect and a 90 second timer.

This is fine if the mobs don't mem wipe. And the current incantation of holy ground is great. I like it and it has some very good uses. However, the OLD version of holy ground (in other words, the current version of holy ground does not fix that) was our way of dealing with mem wiping monsters (it was also a very good OT tool). This expansion's raids seems to be FULL of mem wiping mobs.

We just don't have an easy way to deal with large amount of mem wiping monsters. I've used rescue and sneering assault after being mem wiped and it pretty much accomplished nothing. Why even give them to me? (Yes, I did DPS before hand to raise up a few positions. Rising up 4 or 5 and then going up another 6 from my two snaps does not equal to the top of the hate list when there are over 24 positions being kept track of).

I had to buy a 90 platinum earring off of the broker that procs 1 hate position to help mitigate mem wiping monsters. If I see the ire proc adornment from zek for sale in the auction channel, I'll probably put 200 plat down for it (send Lawrs a tell on Permafrost if you are selling it). Seems a bit drastic to me.

Also, Paladins do NOT have a LONG ranged hate position ability. The OLD holy ground used to be used long range, as well. Cast holy ground and then faithful cry, for example.

Just for a comparison:

The monk gets rescue AND sneering assault, and some other hate positional abilities. One of them is called Hidden Opening (90 second timer.), which raises the hate position by 5. If you add up the TOTAL amount of positionals Paladins have...it comes out to 7. A Monk's single ability is 5, and it accounts for 71% of the TOTAL amount of positionals Paladin's have. I'm not trying to pick on Monk's. I think they are great and am glad they have finally found a use/cause. I don't want them to get nerfed (or any class)... But, the Paladins really need a boost and I hope that is apparent.

I've never had class envy until this expansion and I've been playing a Paladin for a long time.

But, as usual SoE ign......., well, this thread is supposed to be less flamey, so I'll end it here.

I wish the devs would play a Paladin on raids and talk to raiding Paladins. Things would become much clearer then.

 

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Old 08-27-2011, 09:20 AM   #32
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Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.

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Old 08-27-2011, 09:42 AM   #33
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Seriously I don't understand why you as a pally are complaining about snaps and reuse. Your class has the best aggro tool ingame period, slap amends on your raid Brigg and you could almost go afk while tanking. I belive it's why your class doesnt have as many snaps as the other classes. But that's my opinion...

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Old 08-27-2011, 10:10 AM   #34
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Amends is... and always has been simply a Hate over time spell.

HOWEVER every tank with the right group setup can reach the 50% transfer cap - amends on top of that only skews how much % hate you'll recieve from each player  or sometimes the ability to amend the dirge in a 3 healer group is handy at times.

BUT THEN - the hate you receive through amends is not a constant stream.. it is entirely based on if your target is alive/able to DPS and DPSig the correct mob and you as a tank has no real control over it; the same goes true for *any* transfer whcih *any* tank can reach the cap with a well structured group.

AT BEST it allows some flexibilty as a paladin is not restricted in who is being the MT transfer (I personally prefer rangers) but just because we have this flexibility doesn't mean we should be restricted in other means of hate generation which we are currently.

ALL raids will be built with transfers in mind. 99% of the time the fact we actually *have* amends means little.. and in some cases nothing.

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Old 08-27-2011, 10:37 AM   #35
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If your so worried about your amends target taking a dirt nap,  choose a brig not a dirge. A well played Brig can stay in and have their aoe blocker a ton of time, where a dirdge dont or can't.

Besides all tanks have an issue with hate dumps and blurs, some more than others. But you do have an OT to pick it up when your out of snaps, or burn them all trying to reach the top of the hate list in half of a second. 

So I still don't see your point asking what our rolls as a tank are. 

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Old 08-27-2011, 11:24 AM   #36
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You missed the entire point.. and nice to have someone register for these forums just to say you have amends its the "most powerful spell in game" don't give these pallys anythgin else.

If you don't know how it works or how utterly depdant on other classes pallys are both for suvival (warden death prevents) or hate (brig, ranger, swash, assaisn, whatever) compared to every other tank then please stop trying to derail this. Amends has not been the only tool needed for agro for a very VERY long time. Memblurs make it as useful as urinating into the wind.

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Old 08-27-2011, 11:27 AM   #37
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Amends is not a 100% guarantee. If your amends target does something stupid, or just plain stinks (because that is all you have during that particular raid), or isn't paying attention, attacks the wrong monster, or gets killed due to an AE at some part in the script, or gets knockbacked...oh, see?

 

Amends does very little for mem wiping monsters as Boli said (hate over time). If I go from position 1 to 24-30 on the hate list. It is going to take forever for me to climb it without any snaps, even with amends. What if the mob mem wipes me and then turns and 1 shots my amends target? What if the next DPS in my group stinks for amends? What then? See – it isn't as rosy when you take into consideration when things that can happen, actually does happen. The only thing I can do is watch as the mob eats many people.

 

There are three main parts to holding aggro:

1. Generating aggro over time through DPS, taunts, other abilities.2. When a DPS rips the mob from you and how you react using your tools (rescue, for example).3. When a mob mem wipes the tank.

 

Right now, Paladins are just fine at number 1 and 2. It is 3 where they are lacking. I was trying to make that point out with my above post in reference to the old holy ground and how it was the tool for us to deal with mem wiping monsters.

 

I don't want other classes to get nerfed. I'm from the camp that you should raise up other classes rather than knock them down.

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Old 08-27-2011, 11:55 AM   #38
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You know whats sad? Swashies get more hate/threat than zerkers do if they choose to spec for it. Where's the zerker hate, threat and snaps? Cmon devs.

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Old 08-27-2011, 12:16 PM   #39
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You have all of those abilities, we all do to some extent. What i'm getting out of this is what the guards were complaining about in SF, that they should be the end all be all tank. And what did it get the zerkers, nailed with the nerf bat along with the sk's. 

Oh and BTW I have been reading these forums for quite a while, I just never felt the need to reply to someone going on like they are the red headed step child when they aren't untill now. 

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Old 08-27-2011, 01:48 PM   #40
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BChizzle wrote:

Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.

Are you starting to get the hint yet?  Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is.  The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.

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Old 08-27-2011, 02:56 PM   #41
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Edi.. where are you seeing anybody saying pallies should be the end all be all tank? What we are asking for is help with snaps which affects all tanks but all tanks have more snaps than pallies and like everybody else has said amends does nothing for help getting mobs back. We also have no reliable stoneskins or way to help avoid massive amounts of incoming damage which all other tanks have. We arent asking to be unkillable or for something that is up every single round of aoes but we definately need some controlled way to mitigate large amounts of incoming damage especially with the increase of unavoidable deathtouches.

You coming in here trying to derail the thread with your ignorant views on how you perceive another class being OP'd isnt going to help anybody out. If you have concerns with your class and reasonable ideas on solutions, post them but dont register and post here just to derail a thread.

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Old 08-27-2011, 06:26 PM   #42
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You coming in here trying to derail the thread with your ignorant views on how you perceive another class being OP'd isnt going to help anybody out. If you have concerns with your class and reasonable ideas on solutions, post them but dont register and post here just to derail a thread.

This is laughable at best,

Amends is not a 100% guarantee. If your amends target does something stupid, or just plain stinks (because that is all you have during that particular raid), or isn't paying attention, attacks the wrong monster, or gets killed due to an AE at some part in the script, or gets knockbacked...oh, see?

Thats is purely conjecture, if your amends target don't know they have amends on them then its not your fault. Isn't partly your responsibility as with person you put amends on to be attacking the same thing?  Shouldn't they be assisiting thru you?

Look if pallys need something other than amends why on you ask to have that deleted from your class and ask for more snaps? wouldnt that be more fair than the other classes who dont have such "class defining abilitys"?

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Old 08-27-2011, 06:26 PM   #43
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while the most tanks seem to be doing better balance wise this expansion than most others, there seem to be the same amount of opinionated people, however they have even stronger opinions now.

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Old 08-27-2011, 06:30 PM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:

while the most tanks seem to be doing better balance wise this expansion than most others, there seem to be the same amount of opinionated people, however they have even stronger opinions now.

I do agree with that.

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Old 08-27-2011, 07:02 PM   #45
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Edi, are you really not getting it? The issue that you seem to be caught up on is amends as your perceive it is overpowered. When it comes to memwipes amends does very little to help us get the mob back. Again, every tank can be hate xfer capped if they are in a good tank group but you seem to be ignoring that fact for some reason. You come across as bitter and just wanting to derail a thread because you feel slighted for not having gods gift to tanks when everybody else that has posted seems to agree that pallies, zerkers and SK's need some help. 

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Old 08-27-2011, 09:10 PM   #46
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every tank is having issues with snaps, not just pallies. being one snap short doesn't break the class, having too many memwipes, deathtouches with unavoidable deathsaves, and tanks who cannot actually hit mobs consistently is a groupwide issue.

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Old 08-27-2011, 10:32 PM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:

every tank is having issues with snaps, not just pallies. being one snap short doesn't break the class, having too many memwipes, deathtouches with unavoidable deathsaves, and tanks who cannot actually hit mobs consistently is a groupwide issue.

I can admit and I don't mind pally snap agro *is* an issue

HOWEVER when we tank mobs with greater agro control (brawlers) it becomes an issue.

At the end of the day pally SHOULD survive better... but we do not...

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Old 08-27-2011, 11:04 PM   #48
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

every tank is having issues with snaps, not just pallies. being one snap short doesn't break the class, having too many memwipes, deathtouches with unavoidable deathsaves, and tanks who cannot actually hit mobs consistently is a groupwide issue.

I can admit and I don't mind pally snap agro *is* an issue

HOWEVER when we tank mobs with greater agro control (brawlers) it becomes an issue.

At the end of the day pally SHOULD survive better... but we do not...

again, you're not the only ones in that boat. perhaps voice your discontent to the developers for constantly flip flopping the power struggle between tanks.

zerks finally got a little bit but i'm still not happy with the result, after moaning for about a month straight and listening to the others complain for much longer about how uber brawlers are in DoV, while we have nothing that is really class specific any longer except for adrenaline, which isn't as great as it used to be.

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Old 08-27-2011, 11:11 PM   #49
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really all of the argueing in this thread just means we still need a dev responce that will let us know in general what the roles are supposed to be.

everything I would say in any form would depend on what it is that each tank role is intended to fill.

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Old 08-28-2011, 12:36 AM   #50
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SOE is never going to just come out and tell us what player-invented "role" each tank class is "meant" to fill, because they very likely have no intention of confining the classes into such limited niches. Every fighter class is meant to be a tank, not a "main tank" or an "off tank" or an "emergency tank", just a tank. Personally, as a brawler, I always hated the label "emergency tank" because all it said to me was, "You are the tank who isn't good enough to tank full-time, but we'll keep you around for when the real tank is screws up and let you have some fun until we get him back up and running." Screw that, I want to be the real tank, not some schmuck who just fills the gap while the "better" tank is out of commission.

The problem is that we have six tanks classes, and each tank class has different abilities. As long as each tank class plays differently, there will be certain situations where a given tank will function better than others. DoV tends to include a lot of content that caters to brawler strengths. Brawlers are primarily avoidance based, which leads to streaky incoming damage and one-shots, so we have a very powerful deathsave and several temporary melee immunity buffs. These were meant to offset our lower overall damage mitigation abilities due to weaker armor. Unfortunately, mitigation on most tanks these days is so high into the curve that the tiny differences between brawlers and plate tanks isn't really very relevant anymore. Combined with the fact that DoV MOBs seem to hit like trucks and can often one-shot even plate tanks, and suddenly none of a brawler's weaknesses are really significant anymore. Even a monk's weaker AoE aggro isn't a problem, because DoV encounters are mostly single target.

In other words, tank balance will never be perfect, because there will always be bias based on the state of the current relevant content. If there were more encounters that required consistent AoE aggro generation, Monks would have issues in those situations. If MOBs weren't all hitting so hard that higher mitigation values were mostly irrelevant, plate tanks would have an advantage in survivability again. It's the reason why tank balance seems to flip-flop every year as new expansions are released, because as the relevant content changes, the perceived "best" tank classes change to match it.

It would help if somebody in charge of itemization and encounter design knew what the heck they were doing, too. Maybe we wouldn't wind up with such a massive fustercluck of over- and under-powered MOBs, gear, and class abilities.

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Old 08-28-2011, 01:20 AM   #51
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Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.

Are you starting to get the hint yet?  Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is.  The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.

Cry more, brawlers just got nerfed by devs getting rid of strikethrough buffs off of the x2 debuff yet you are still crying.  Take away coop strike and a crusader can tank everything including adds.

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Old 08-28-2011, 01:37 AM   #52
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better yet, combine down into 3 tank classes.

result would be less complaints about balance, but only slightly more about "i loved my monk, i didn't want to just be a 'brawler'".

overall i do think it is the lesser of 2 evils at this point in time in the game's lifespan. i have always been a devoted berserker but if i could have the strengths of both zerk and guardian it would certainly leave less to complain about. same for crusaders and brawlers which regardless are still VERY similar negatives due to blending of the lines over time.

everyone's opinion on their class is subjective so the best you can ask for is a basic class description which is already listed upon character creation.

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Old 08-28-2011, 02:40 AM   #53
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[email protected] wrote:

every tank is having issues with snaps, not just pallies. being one snap short doesn't break the class, having too many memwipes, deathtouches with unavoidable deathsaves, and tanks who cannot actually hit mobs consistently is a groupwide issue.

You're hitting on something pretty key here: it's not the classes, it's the content.

Most of the things that people are complaining about brawlers having (mitigation, deathsave, strikethrough immunity, superior riposte & Inner Focus, etc.) we've had since SF or TSO.  Not much has actually changed with Velious.  All we actually received this expansion is:

  • Combat Mastery, which while a fun dps buff doesn't make us any better at tanking.
  • An extremely short term damage reduction buff which under absolutely ideal conditions can only be up 30% of the time, and which cannot be controlled by the player at all.
  • Inner focus is up slightly more
  • An increase to Tenacity's duration and a third trigger.
And...that's it.  That's really all we got this expansion.  I still have less mitigation than I did in SF.  Now, nobody ever said we were overpowered in Sentinel's Fate.  So what makes us so strong now?  It's not mitigation or strikethrough immunity or inner focus--we had all that stuff well before anyone thought we were overpowered.  Tenacity plays a part, sure, but more than anything it's the content.
It was adds with cooperative strike killing plate tanks before the OTs could snap them off.
It was nameds whose fail conditions included a big bag of strikethrough that didn't affect brawlers.
It was predominantly single-target encounters, where having aggro on more than one mob means death.
That's what made brawlers overpowered.  The content, not the mechanics.  And the solution is to fix the content, not the mechanics...and that's exactly what the devs have ben doing.  You now have 6 seconds to grab an add before cooperative strike kicks in.  They just removed strikethrough from the fail-condition buffs.  And I don't know if you've noticed, but the new drunder and plane of war content has its fair share of multi-target tanking.  The hardmode aviak encounter in Elements of War kicked my sorry monk behind all over the place while a zerker, shadowknight, or paladin with an AE class to amends would have done brilliantly.  None of these changes have touched the abilities on my hotbar, but each and every one of them has shrunk the gap between plate tanks and brawlers.  

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Old 08-28-2011, 03:26 AM   #54
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i do agree with you vinka, but they either need to fix the content or give each of the classes enough to combat it. The overabundance of memwipes is rough, 1 more snap or changing holy ground would actually go a long way. Pallies also still need a way to help combat the massive spike damage in this expansion. I am not asking to be the FOTM class, but the so called 'survivability' that we have comes mostly from the fact we have heals which in 99% of the time do nothing for us and we are balanced around having amends which doesnt help us against mem wipes or getting threat back after a death touch.

Im not saying the pally class is broken but it needs some much needed attention to address some of the big issues tanks are facing this xpac.

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Old 08-28-2011, 05:28 AM   #55
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I find it funny that when SK where on top of the world Bruener screamed and yelled tanks balanced better then ever before. Now they they are not the king of all he is complaining about tank balance. But to the point, Tanks will never be balanced in this game. There is simply to many of them with every one of them wanting the spotlight. The EQ2 team don't have the balls to do what needs to be done so just get use to king of tanks being rotated through each subclass.

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Old 08-28-2011, 09:15 AM   #56
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You're hitting on something pretty key here: it's not the classes, it's the content.

Hardhitting raid mobs has been the raid content since T5, not since Velious. If this expansion was SF and all tanks had the same abilities people would still pick a Guard or Monk or Bruiser, because they have tons of stuff for damage immunites. Even if it was TSO they'd pick the same classes to handle Deathtouches, etc.

The balance in SF was ok, maybe Guards were lacking and Berserkers having only one defensive ability was pretty stupid design. But then they nerfed the crap out of Adrenaline and made Berserkers worthless to deal with hard hitting mobs. They changed Crusader's LC so that you couldn't modify the recast, they removed the SK cheat for 3 Bloodletter triggers and gave Crusaders bad AAs. So 3 classes stagnate or fall, Guardians get better and Brawlers, that were already very good MT choices got boosts with more physical mitigation, more stoneskins, more DI, more DPS support.

When you are on almost even playing field and 3 classes get boosts and 3 not it's not the content that favors 3 classes.

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:01 AM   #57
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[email protected] wrote:

i do agree with you vinka, but they either need to fix the content or give each of the classes enough to combat it. The overabundance of memwipes is rough, 1 more snap or changing holy ground would actually go a long way. Pallies also still need a way to help combat the massive spike damage in this expansion. I am not asking to be the FOTM class, but the so called 'survivability' that we have comes mostly from the fact we have heals which in 99% of the time do nothing for us and we are balanced around having amends which doesnt help us against mem wipes or getting threat back after a death touch.

Im not saying the pally class is broken but it needs some much needed attention to address some of the big issues tanks are facing this xpac.

They are obviously working to fix the content though, and like I said there have been several de facto brawler nerfs that have been brought in via content changes lately.  As for memwipes, where are you having issues?  The trash mobs in Throne of Storms memwipe constantly and are an obnoxious pita, but most other mobs seem to be fairly reasonable about it.  

Paladins do need some fixes.  I really hope they give you another snap with the next expansion, and that they change the hate transfer cap to be on the dps classes instead of the tank (so you can't take more than 50% of the hate of any individual dps, but CAN have more tan 50% hate coming in to the paladin if it comes from multiple sources).

And yeah, they need to put strikethrough immunity on all tsunami-type buffs.  

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:09 AM   #58
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Ability to surive and tank mobs >>>>> any sort of hate fixes.

One is merely frustrating the other removes the reason for a pally to even BE in any sort of serious raid force.

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:14 AM   #59
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well, i am a paladin, i do mt without any real problem all the way down from easy to hard (as far as i can get).

sure it would help if there is some snap agro spell.... but i can life without, at least today (if i got a good amends target).

the dps.... well could be better, can be worse (well im full raidgeared with agro proc rune, yes the rune does a good job).

so far... i play the paly since start eq2 and never intend to switch.

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:25 AM   #60
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the only time im running into a major issue with rescues getting people in the raid killed is on fights where the OT's are fights like kraytoc HM after ports or where if i die and i have to get threat back asap and there are only so many things we can do. Right now i stack ire procs from this xpac and last on fights where i know it is going to be an issue but being procs i have no control over them and when they are going to work.

Talking about rescues was never really the main point i was trying to get across but it became the focal point of the thread when edi derailed it. Having limited rescues really isnt game breaking but with the added deathtouches and mem wipes this xpac another rescue or reworking one of our current rescues would be huge. I could live without any rescue changes if they gave us even a magical stoneskin on our stonewall ability which right now really doesnt do anything for us.

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