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Old 08-25-2011, 06:29 PM   #1
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There is one Question that has become painfuly clear needs to be addressed.

What are the tank roles?

After seeing the changes to AA I am actually lost for the first time. I have no idea what exactly is my role as a Paladin. I really think we need to know what SOE's idea is for our role. If the classes are working properly I would just like to know what it is we are supposed to be doing. Any proposed changes are only under the players' idea of what our roles are intended to be.

Please take this seriously as I am actually looking for an answer and am not asking with any kind of malice or Sarcasm.

I will post my generalized list of changes here. I will also update the changes based on peoples posts in the thread.

Guardians – Still a viable choice as main tank. Designed as a defensive tank and given the tools to do just that. They have enough positional agro to get a mob back when it is needed until fights last too long (though I don’t actually think that is bad). The DPS of the class is a bit lower than the other tanks but as a general rule they take a bit less damage as well. As a whole, Guardians are a good balancing point. I would actually like to see a bit DPS for desirability reasons but over all still a good tank.

Berserkers – The only role I have seen for Berserkers in this expansion is off tank. From what I have seen the class only needs a few changes to bring it back on par. Given that in the past Berserkers have always been a more damage focused class I am going to say that they need to be given a boost in this area. 100% aoe auto attack just isn’t all it used to be. Considering 3 (and some times 4) of the tank classes can out dps a berserker in a single target and still be about the same or higher in an aoe fight, they need a boost to dps or more defensive tools. From what I have read (though I do not ever talk for another class community) the preferred approach would be to increase dps. There is more ways to do this then I care to explain. Although another way to mitigate a huge hit would also increase the desirability in a raid.

Shadowknights – Great for groups but the desirability for a raid position has fallen some, still a good choice for an off tank role. Shadowknights at one point were an amazing dps machine and could still keep up with the incoming damage in a raid. This naturally made them very desirable for just about any tank role in a raid. The damage of the class was brought down but the defense of the class remained about unchanged. In current content they can’t withstand damage of the hardest raid content. Again I do not speak for any other class community but from what I can tell the preferred changes would be to increase dps again. Even if this is the case and the damage is increased it would still be great to see one more tool to live through a nasty frontal aoe or death touch.

Paladins – Great for groups and easy mode raids but no place for the hardest content. Though in their current state they are the most broken of the classes, very little needs to change in order to fix them. The dps of Paladins is right where it needs to be. However for a defensive tank they can’t survive the damage of the hardest content. Arguably the best at sustaining agro (and undisputed in non ideal situations) they lack in the ability to regain the hate if it is lost. Though a huge pain I would only say they need maybe one more snap in order to fix this. As I am a paladin I would say this is not a huge concern in every fight. Again the biggest flaw of the class is the ability to live threw a series of attacks that land every 45 seconds. Fixing Devine Aura so that it works for the all of the damage and not just the damage less than 50% would actually go a long way to help both the Shadowknight and the Paladin to survive the massive damage in the current content. Another change would still be needed in order to rotate threw the timers of the aoe or death touch (though would not need to be nearly as strong as fixing Devine Aura, maybe just a 2 hit magic only on stonewall as an aa choice or something along those lines). All in all the class only needs a couple of changes to bring them back to a defensive tank in the end game.

Bruisers – Great choice for a main tank or an off tank role. All in all I feel Bruisers are very close to where they should be. Slightly less capable than their counterpart of surviving the massive damage of a main tank spot able none the less. Given that fact I do feel a bruiser could use a boost in the dps that can provide to a raid. The class sacrifices a huge portion of their survivability in order to do the extra damage when they would like to. The increase however is not enough of a gain. Simply increase the dps that a Bruiser can provide in the offensive would be a good move.

Monks – A great choice for main tank and for off tank. Yes I do understand that it is the current content that has placed the monk in the position that they are in. However I feel that they should remain unchanged. I agree that all the tanks should have chance at landing a role in a raid force. Even though a monk is the best choice for main tank at this point they are still not the best choice for grouping as some of the other classes can tank in a less ideal set up. Don’t change mons, if anything they could use a little more aoe agro to help in heroic content.

In summary: (Note that this is scaled based on any changes made to all fighters, so if all fighters get a boost to dps there should still be a reason to pick a dps tank over a defencive tank)

Guardian – small boost to dps

Berserker – large increase to dps and a small increase in spike damage survivability

Shadowknight – large increase to dps and a small increase to spike damage survivability

Paladin – large increase to spike damage survivability and a small increase to snap agro

Bruiser – small to large increase to offensive dps

Monk – leave them alone or give a little aoe agro control

It has also been pointed out that most tanks could have a look at there Offensive and Defensive stances so that there is a noticeable diference when switching between them. Another general fighter upgrade would be to make any 100% avoid buffs Strikethrough immune, as it stands there is no garenty that it will actually avoid any attacks in raids. As a whole all fighters need to have there dps increased to be more on par with a T2 dps. This is needed so that there is a real reason to consider the advantages of taking a 4th tank and utilizing the defence that they can add to the raid as apposed to the addition DPS that the T1 DPS classes will offer.

All of the above changes are only true if the content remains the same. Changing the content would help in most cases. However I would rather the classes changed to the above as I actually feel the difficulty of raids will scale better if you did.

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Old 08-25-2011, 06:35 PM   #2
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Yes, I would like a dev response on this as well. It would be very helpful. I recently came back to the game after a 1.5 year break and I am preplexed.

Thanks.

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Old 08-25-2011, 06:48 PM   #3
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You wont like the answer, it will be something like "to keep things pointed at you while everyone kills it".

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Old 08-25-2011, 06:53 PM   #4
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[email protected] wrote:

You wont like the answer, it will be something like "to keep things pointed at you while everyone kills it".

if that was the case, then I know that striving for equality in the ability to do just that is something worth doing.

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Old 08-25-2011, 07:32 PM   #5
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We're the RP role... I mean for realz!

Seriously tho we are the WORST OT, and have WORST survibility in raids vs the hard mobs and some easy mobs.... if you wanna run maths by me feel free but I am right.

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Old 08-25-2011, 07:35 PM   #6
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I can tell you what it should be.

MT - Paladin/Guard

OT - SK/Zerk

CC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk

I can tell you what it is right now with the current messed up mechanics...

MT - Monk/Bruiser/Guard

OT - Monk/Bruiser/Guard

CC/Emergency Tank - Monk/Brusier

So, what needs to be done is to address why things are they way the are currently and what needs to be done to get things back on track.

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Old 08-25-2011, 07:37 PM   #7
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Bruener wrote:

I can tell you what it should be.

MT - Paladin/Guard

OT - SK/Zerk

CC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk

I can tell you what it is right now with the current messed up mechanics...

MT - Monk/Bruiser/Guard

OT - Monk/Bruiser/Guard

CC/Emergency Tank - Monk/Brusier

So, what needs to be done is to address why things are they way the are currently and what needs to be done to get things back on track.

The reason I made this post is that I am now not so sure the MT OT and CC roles are what you say. Or if that is what is actually intended.

That would be why I would like a reply from someone with a red name.

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Old 08-26-2011, 07:06 AM   #8
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Monks and bruisers have always had snaps and temporary damage immunities Tsunami was the first complete damage immune ability if you remember that far back.  What they didn't have until recently was the ability to survive the agro they could hold on the mob for extended periods of time - bascially it was common to see brawlers being one shotted.

BUT: They were used, indeed I loved using them in this way - as drag and drop tanks using their snaps and short term damage immunity to pick up stray mobs dump them in the right place - they could even FD for a complete memwipe if they wished. Of course well geared out brawlers could tank in their own right but they were still *slighty* more succeptable to being one-shotted.

Fast forward to DoV and the brawlers got the suvibility tools they requested; they could raise their mit pretty high *almost* but not quite as high as a plate tank. they had short term damage reduction which tempered the "double attack death" from mobs so the second attack never hit as hard as the first. Immunity to strikethrough so all their parry/riposte abilities functioned perfectly and also reducing incoming damage; and multiple death saves.

They also kept their numerous snaps, and short term damage immunities.

In short they were fixed; they had the ability to get agro with their numerous death saves and SURVIVE it... not just for the short term but for the long term.

Paladins on the other hand have never really been fixed; at most we have gotten a smattering of sometimes useful abilities sometimes not; there has never been any sort of plan or goal for paladins. What we want... what any class wants is our needs discussed, and addressed not by a group of number crunchers at SoE but by a developer willing to listen and talk us through our concerns.

- Our group heal the numbers are too low; no point outside of soloing (funny... a group heal being used to solo...)

- the new intercept change can you give us a reason we would EVER find a use for the heal? Who will need a 10% heal 1m40s after an ability is cast on you which by its very design will trigger early if they took any damage? If the heal is meant to be cast on the paladin after they intercept then ok nice idea... but if you intercept damage you use up all your wards and may in fact die and e already have a 10% heal on takign damage.... better to have a bruiser or guardian use intercept... or any class with a stoneskin ability to negate the damage.

- our new ward enhancement - our ward is blown through very fast (due to potency omnly being counted for 30%) meaning the TINY debuff is only on average one or two mobs for a very short duartion.... what is the point?

- Really... power reductions on heals? - yes we are a power intensive class but this is not going to help us in the long run and every pally will have manalink running 24/7.

- What is the point of arch heal... no seriously.. as an endline what possible use does it have and how does it even COMPARE to the other three endlines - its worse than the AAs you took to get it.

- Why in an expansion of death touches every 45s is a paladin the *only* class without a reliable stoneskin?

- In an expansion of multiple memblurs why are pallys completely shafted when it comes to rescues it is intentional to make us swear so much in raids/groups?

- why does divine aura have the 50?% health requirement in raids it is next to useless - it is NOT overpowered other classes have complete immunities for longer times on better recasts

- Have you seen the legionaries line on the crusader tree.... the actual increases you get for such a large AA investment to get LC are minimal at best we *used* to have our spell/heal crits on this line and now I never notice a different in my damage or healing capabilities if I spec them or not.

What is your role for paladins... where is your vision?

Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)

GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladin

Agro control (including memblurs)

Monk BruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladin

Group/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardian

Single/Group/raid buffs (defence)

Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)

If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....

Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6

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Old 08-26-2011, 10:01 AM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:

Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)

GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladin

Agro control (including memblurs)

MonkBruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladin

Group/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardian

Single/Group/raid buffs (defence)

Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)

If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....

Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6

I think this is a good synapsis although I would probably flop SK and Paladin on raid wide DPS buff since HD provides a pretty big boost to raid DPS.

But how your numbers rated in ranking is just about where I see the tanks falling in line.  Notice that there is a pretty big gap between the top and the bottom.  Numbers wise all the tanks should probably be falling at about 15 where Guards are.  Hence adjustments needed at the top since mechanics completely favor those 2 classes, and some boosting to the bottom 2 since Zerks probably rose a couple numbers after 61.

It would be neat to take those same categories Boli and make the adjustments on where the tanks should be in them to get an even number.

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Old 08-26-2011, 10:54 AM   #10
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)

GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladin

Agro control (including memblurs)

MonkBruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladin

Group/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardian

Single/Group/raid buffs (defence)

Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)

If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....

Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6

I think this is a good synapsis although I would probably flop SK and Paladin on raid wide DPS buff since HD provides a pretty big boost to raid DPS.

But how your numbers rated in ranking is just about where I see the tanks falling in line.  Notice that there is a pretty big gap between the top and the bottom.  Numbers wise all the tanks should probably be falling at about 15 where Guards are.  Hence adjustments needed at the top since mechanics completely favor those 2 classes, and some boosting to the bottom 2 since Zerks probably rose a couple numbers after 61.

It would be neat to take those same categories Boli and make the adjustments on where the tanks should be in them to get an even number.

Perhaps, but constant 5% spell potency, 10% reuse (group) deathmarch and a better group damage proc count in the SK's favour; plus more debuffs (physcial as well as a magical debuff) all that vs 10s every 3min (~ 2min with recast).

The following is *my* view on how *I* would balance tanks:

Paladins *should* be joint top or just second in survibility after guardians; and have decent although not flawless agro control; their DPS they deal and grant to the group suffers in this however

Guardians *should* survive the best; and be able to protect their group; agro should be good but not perfect slightly worse than a pallys agro but do more DPS and protect their group better to compensate.

Monks *should* have a high defence but are unmatched in their ability to defend others, their agro control should be average but good snaps.

Bruisers *should* have decent tanking ability but excel in snapping up the mobs and bring a solid DPS both in terms of buffs and personal DPS.

Beserkers *should* be a war machine in terms of DPS they personally do as well as in buffing their group an average survibility and whilst an average selection of taunts and snaps it is more through dps they hold hate.

Shadowknight *should* do the most damage hands down, buff their group up well but bring little in terms of raw suvibility for both their group and themselves - whilst they can protect themselves and tank when required it is not their primary concern.

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Old 08-26-2011, 11:35 AM   #11
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[email protected] wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)

GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladin

Agro control (including memblurs)

MonkBruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladin

Group/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardian

Single/Group/raid buffs (defence)

Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)

If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....

Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6

I think this is a good synapsis although I would probably flop SK and Paladin on raid wide DPS buff since HD provides a pretty big boost to raid DPS.

But how your numbers rated in ranking is just about where I see the tanks falling in line.  Notice that there is a pretty big gap between the top and the bottom.  Numbers wise all the tanks should probably be falling at about 15 where Guards are.  Hence adjustments needed at the top since mechanics completely favor those 2 classes, and some boosting to the bottom 2 since Zerks probably rose a couple numbers after 61.

It would be neat to take those same categories Boli and make the adjustments on where the tanks should be in them to get an even number.

Perhaps, but constant 5% spell potency, 10% reuse (group) deathmarch and a better group damage proc count in the SK's favour; plus more debuffs (physcial as well as a magical debuff) all that vs 10s every 3min (~ 2min with recast).

The following is *my* view on how *I* would balance tanks:

Paladins *should* be joint top or just second in survibility after guardians; and have decent although not flawless agro control; their DPS they deal and grant to the group suffers in this however

Guardians *should* survive the best; and be able to protect their group; agro should be good but not perfect slightly worse than a pallys agro but do more DPS and protect their group better to compensate.

Monks *should* have a high defence but are unmatched in their ability to defend others, their agro control should be average but good snaps.

Bruisers *should* have decent tanking ability but excel in snapping up the mobs and bring a solid DPS both in terms of buffs and personal DPS.

Beserkers *should* be a war machine in terms of DPS they personally do as well as in buffing their group an average survibility and whilst an average selection of taunts and snaps it is more through dps they hold hate.

Shadowknight *should* do the most damage hands down, buff their group up well but bring little in terms of raw suvibility for both their group and themselves - whilst they can protect themselves and tank when required it is not their primary concern.

So, here is where I see a huge problem come in....DPS v Survivability.

As an example since I am a SK you descripe SKs have having the most damage hands down and buffing their group up well for that as well.  Well what is good damage?  I mean 10% higher than the other Fighters is still less than 1/2 of T1 DPS.  The DPS doesn't matter unless they bring it back to the levels of Fighter DPS that SF had.  Where as a SK that played extremely well I could out DPS mediocre T1 DPS classes and be on par with great T2 DPS classes like rogues.

If they can't push the DPS to those levels than there is absolutely no point at all being the one with more DPS since raids will only bring Fighters that can tank the best balanced with their agro.

There are so many ways you could actually balance Fighters though, and its all just opinions.

You could take a spectrum of Agro-----Survivability.  On the Agro end would be SKs/Bruisers and on the Survivability end Paladins/Guards.  The ones with the most agro which is in the form of DPS since that is what raids really want would be harder to keep up sort of like where SKs are now in survivability.  Those at the Survivability end would be easiest to keep up but much harder to maintain agro.  The problem is all DPS classes don't want to have to worry about agro and SOE has given hate buffs and transfers to other classes to completely negate the problem.  So with the ideal tank set up no Fighter worries about holding hate.

Instead you could look at just balancing all Fighters across all types of game play (almost the way I think SOE is doing it and were probably closest to this at the end of SF).  This means equal agro and equal survivability over the course of an encounter.  The tools would just differ.  Like at the end of SF Guards had a lot of Passive/Reactive agro that could rival the agro of a SK that was mostly DPS agro.  Survivability tools would differ but balance as well.  So Guards get a lot of stoneskins while maybe others get unique saves like Blood Siphon for SKs and Bloodletter.

Than there comes the issue of balancing utiliy and the type of utility.  I honestly think overall utility balance is pretty close in what Fighters bring.  Guards for example bringing defensive utility to their group.  SKs bringing some offensive utility.  Brawlers bring some of both and hands down the best tank survivability buff for another tank.

Further more though than you have to look at the whole ST v AE.  Some tools work better on ST, some better on AE.  If SOE went back to making content like they did in TSO and SF with lots of swarm adds and some big AE encounters the tools would probably balance out to where they should.  The same old same old with one massive ST, or 2 massive ST encounters is old and way way overdone.  Even in SF when there was a lot more AE it still was probably 50/50.

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Old 08-26-2011, 11:52 AM   #12
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you won't get a reply here so don't waste your time thinking you will.

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Old 08-26-2011, 12:02 PM   #13
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SKs buffing their group for DPS and being able to do great DPS as well... I think every SK wants that BUT you cannot have the same survibility and agro control of a Guardian for example otherwise why bring a guard? - afterall you get everything they can do and more DPS as well. They should be differences and when I say "less survibility" I mean; less... not pathetic.

Say all the content needs a certain number of Stoneskins and death prevents to deal with the incoming damage of:

- 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 50s

Guardians with their superior tankign skills can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 20sPaladins can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 25sMonks can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 30sBeserkers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 35sBruisers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 40sShadowknight can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 45s

And due to memblurs you need one rescue every 50s also

Brusiers can manage 1 rescue every 20sMonks can manage 1 rescue every 25sShadowknight  can manage 1 rescue every 30sPaladins can manage 1 rescue every 35s Guardians  can manage 1 rescue every 40sBeserkers  can manage 1 rescue every 45s

So each class *can* do the job but bruisers will find its easier to keep the mob snapped onto them guardians will always have that "little extra" to survive more damage and SKs will have all the tools they need - although the survibility one cuts it fine but they also push out the most DPS out of all the tanks.

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Old 08-26-2011, 12:13 PM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

Group/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardian

Don't want to nitpick, but Berserkers buff some agi, 0.x Flurry, 0.0x autoattack damge and 30 MA, that very soon will be butchered when not only top raiders, but everyone hits dimishing returns on MA. And you rate that over let's say Combat Mastery?

And on topic:

I think SOE shouldn't design tanks only for one specific role, they should make all tanks capable of doing anything somewhat comparable and then people can chose whatever tank they want for what ever they want.

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Old 08-26-2011, 12:24 PM   #15
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It was more your new group beserk buff which will stack with your standard group beserk proc if you get +100 DPS mod from that that's ALL autoattack hitting for 10% harder

30 MA ofc not vital but its raid wide

I *think* you still proc s/c/p on your beserk proc this will now increase min auto-attack damage

and ofc the AGI added in as well.

It was more the combination of everything rather than one single ability.... either way a zerker/brawler group is going to be the next p!mp thing.

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Old 08-26-2011, 12:32 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

SKs buffing their group for DPS and being able to do great DPS as well... I think every SK wants that BUT you cannot have the same survibility and agro control of a Guardian for example otherwise why bring a guard? - afterall you get everything they can do and more DPS as well. They should be differences and when I say "less survibility" I mean; less... not pathetic.

Say all the content needs a certain number of Stoneskins and death prevents to deal with the incoming damage of:

- 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 50s

Guardians with their superior tankign skills can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 20sPaladins can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 25sMonks can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 30sBeserkers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 35sBruisers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 40sShadowknight can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 45s

And due to memblurs you need one rescue every 50s also

Brusiers can manage 1 rescue every 20sMonks can manage 1 rescue every 25sShadowknight  can manage 1 rescue every 30sPaladins can manage 1 rescue every 35sGuardians  can manage 1 rescue every 40sBeserkers  can manage 1 rescue every 45s

So each class *can* do the job but bruisers will find its easier to keep the mob snapped onto them guardians will always have that "little extra" to survive more damage and SKs will have all the tools they need - although the survibility one cuts it fine but they also push out the most DPS out of all the tanks.

Again I want to point out the DPS issue of Fighters.  It stinks right now.  If being the top Fighter DPS means the current level of DPS than it is garbage and no raid would bring a SK when the actual DPS is junk and they die way more often because stoneskinning every other AE is way more spikes than stoneskining every AE....it would be all about the Fighters that survive the best like it is right now.  It is actual the exact situation we have right now.

In order for your idea to work for the DPS/Survivability spectrum than Fighter DPS needs to restored to SF levels where it was actually decent and not a detriment for raid DPS when you actually wanted to bring 4 Fighters.

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Old 08-26-2011, 12:34 PM   #17
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Bremer wrote:

And on topic:

I think SOE shouldn't design tanks only for one specific role, they should make all tanks capable of doing anything somewhat comparable and then people can chose whatever tank they want for what ever they want.

and the replies to this post are a direct reflection of the need for a responce on this. It is not clear what direction SOE is trying to go with tanks. Is it equality or is it a role that needs to be filled in varied ways?

All I am asking for is to know what direction the Dev team is trying to go with all tanks

I know that class balance is on going and you are working on a solution to all sorts of things in game. However there is absolutely no way that the player base can effectively help in testing or the ongoing balance changes to the Tanks without knwing this fundamental piece of information.

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Old 08-26-2011, 12:56 PM   #18
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[email protected] wrote:

It was more your new group beserk buff which will stack with your standard group beserk proc if you get +100 DPS mod from that that's ALL autoattack hitting for 10% harder

30 MA ofc not vital but its raid wide

I *think* you still proc s/c/p on your beserk proc this will now increase min auto-attack damage

and ofc the AGI added in as well.

It was more the combination of everything rather than one single ability.... either way a zerker/brawler group is going to be the next p!mp thing.

The "new" buff is a 10 second 30 haste/DPS buff, exactly like the normal proc. So the best you can get is temporary 70 DPS/haste. Raidbuffed that's less than 1 % flurry chance and autoattack damage. And the s/c/p on the Berserk proc is 17 pts, less than a treasured adorment. Even combined I would call that pretty useless and anything but the best DPS support from any tank class.

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Old 08-26-2011, 01:11 PM   #19
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Bremer wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

It was more your new group beserk buff which will stack with your standard group beserk proc if you get +100 DPS mod from that that's ALL autoattack hitting for 10% harder

30 MA ofc not vital but its raid wide

I *think* you still proc s/c/p on your beserk proc this will now increase min auto-attack damage

and ofc the AGI added in as well.

It was more the combination of everything rather than one single ability.... either way a zerker/brawler group is going to be the next p!mp thing.

The "new" buff is a 10 second 30 haste/DPS buff, exactly like the normal proc. So the best you can get is temporary 70 DPS/haste. Raidbuffed that's less than 1 % flurry chance and autoattack damage. And the s/c/p on the Berserk proc is 17 pts, less than a treasured adorment. Even combined I would call that pretty useless and anything but the best DPS support from any tank class.

then group/raid buff go to brueser... at this point it wouldn't change much of anything it terms of this thread and why it was created.

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Old 08-26-2011, 01:41 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

All I am asking for is to know what direction the Dev team is trying to go with all tanks

About the time they figure it out, they'll change their mind.

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Old 08-26-2011, 01:47 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

About the time they figure it out, they'll change their mind.

at least we would know what we should be trying to focus on right now.

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Old 08-26-2011, 01:48 PM   #22
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[email protected] wrote:

SKs buffing their group for DPS and being able to do great DPS as well... I think every SK wants that BUT you cannot have the same survibility and agro control of a Guardian for example otherwise why bring a guard? - afterall you get everything they can do and more DPS as well. They should be differences and when I say "less survibility" I mean; less... not pathetic.

Say all the content needs a certain number of Stoneskins and death prevents to deal with the incoming damage of:

- 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 50s

Guardians with their superior tankign skills can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 20sPaladins can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 25sMonks can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 30sBeserkers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 35sBruisers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 40sShadowknight can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 45s

And due to memblurs you need one rescue every 50s also

Brusiers can manage 1 rescue every 20sMonks can manage 1 rescue every 25sShadowknight  can manage 1 rescue every 30sPaladins can manage 1 rescue every 35sGuardians  can manage 1 rescue every 40sBeserkers  can manage 1 rescue every 45s

So each class *can* do the job but bruisers will find its easier to keep the mob snapped onto them guardians will always have that "little extra" to survive more damage and SKs will have all the tools they need - although the survibility one cuts it fine but they also push out the most DPS out of all the tanks.

This is the age old dillema of eq2.If you cant survive as a fighter then why are you a tank.If you cant hold agro as a fighter then why are you a tank.

This as always been the issue with tank balance. There comes a point were multiple snaps are unneeded. If a mob mem wipes every 50 secs who cares if a bruiser can snap it back every 20 secs.

The flip side was true during ROK. In TSO a guardian was still the best defensive tank but there comes a point where the dps of zerkers and shadowknights made being a guardian with all thier death prevents useless and pure dps was needed.

Bottom line is EVERYONE needs to be able to survive tanking in raids, with only slight difference in how they do it. Everyone needs to be able to hold agro with only slight difference in how they do it. Everyone needs to be able to add utility to group/raids in order to have some desireability.

Some changes are needed just like the recent zerker love in gu61. I dont think a total rework as you mentioned will solve any of that because there will always be a BEST tank class using your guidelines.  

I think the idea of 3 aoe tanks bezerker, shadowknight, bruiser with them being slightly better aoe aoe agro and snapsis the way to go. (currently monks and guardians do not have alot of aoe agro abilites, paladins a bit more but not as much as the other 3, and yet monks palains and guards can still tank heroic aoe encounters)Lets call those 3 aoe tanks the offtanks.

I think guards, monks and paladins should be considered the single target main tanks and have slightly more defensive temps. (guards and monks are fine in this regard paladins need some dev love)The other issue is the mechanics ALL death saves need to be unmodifiable unless by direct means. This issue is forcing devs to make raids harder by creating content designed to outright kill tanks in order to create dificulty. if a dev wants to balance deaths saves between fighters they can do that through red class adorns and AA abilities directly enhancing these abilities. iiregardless there will always be at least 2-3 fighters who will feel broken because this game was only designed for at most 3-4 fighters in raids. At any given point in time some fighter will be perceived to give to much utility, or to much defense, or to much agro and will be chosen above the classes that are perceived not to have enough.

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Old 08-26-2011, 01:49 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)

GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladin

Agro control (including memblurs)

Monk BruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladin

Group/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardian

Single/Group/raid buffs (defence)

Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)

If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....

Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6

Okay, I'm not going to deny that brawlers are strong right now, but you're really exaggeratin things here a bit.  Lets start with aggro control--brawlers are fantastic at dealing with memblurs, but we are not at all the best at holding aggro against lots of adds (the traditional offtank role).  Zerkers, Paladins, Shadowknights and bruisers are all better at AE aggro control than monks, for example.  Monks are awesome at holding a single-target through memwipes, but not so good at fights that involve holding lots of adds for a long time.  This means we're not quite as high on the Offtank list as you'd say, either (though our snaps do come in handy there).  Now lets look at the single/group/raid buffs.  Brawlers don't even have a groupwide buff, our raidwide buffs are less good than most other tanks, and you are basing our utility on a single spell which every single other fighter also has.  While yes, ours is stronger than most other fighters, this is only true when we are tanking and in defensive stance.  If we're dpsing in a third-tank role, then we'll be in offensive stance and our avoidance becomes the lowest of all the fighters.  Really, the best avoidance buffs come from crusaders, because they'll be in sword/board no matter whether they're dpsing or tanking so their avoidance buff will always be reliable.  

Brawlers have awesome survivability with lots of snaps, yes, and we're definitely very powerful, but don't pretend we're the best at everything.

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Old 08-26-2011, 01:58 PM   #24
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[email protected] wrote:

This is the age old dillema of eq2.

If you cant survive as a fighter then why are you a tank.If you cant hold agro as a fighter then why are you a tank.

This as always been the issue with tank balance. There comes a point were multiple snaps are unneeded. If a mob mem wipes every 50 secs who cares if a bruiser can snap it back every 20 secs.

The flip side was true during ROK. In TSO a guardian was still the best defensive tank but there comes a point where the dps of zerkers and shadowknights made being a guardian with all thier death prevents useless and pure dps was needed.

Bottom line is EVERYONE needs to be able to survive tanking in raids, with only slight difference in how they do it. Everyone needs to be able to hold agro with only slight difference in how they do it. Everyone needs to be able to add utility to group/raids in order to have some desireability.

Some changes are needed just like the recent zerker love in gu61. I dont think a total rework as you mentioned will solve any of that because there will always be a BEST tank class using your guidelines.  

I think the idea of 3 aoe tanks bezerker, shadowknight, bruiser with them being slightly better aoe aoe agro and snapsis the way to go. (currently monks and guardians do not have alot of aoe agro abilites, paladins a bit more but not as much as the other 3, and yet monks palains and guards can still tank heroic aoe encounters)Lets call those 3 aoe tanks the offtanks.

I think guards, monks and paladins should be considered the single target main tanks and have slightly more defensive temps. (guards and monks are fine in this regard paladins need some dev love)The other issue is the mechanics ALL death saves need to be unmodifiable unless by direct means. This issue is forcing devs to make raids harder by creating content designed to outright kill tanks in order to create dificulty. if a dev wants to balance deaths saves between fighters they can do that through red class adorns and AA abilities directly enhancing these abilities. iiregardless there will always be at least 2-3 fighters who will feel broken because this game was only designed for at most 3-4 fighters in raids. At any given point in time some fighter will be perceived to give to much utility, or to much defense, or to much agro and will be chosen above the classes that are perceived not to have enough.

all of this is still under the assumption that SOE has intended for all tanks to have an equal role in raids and group content.

The current state of tank balance however dictates otherwise.

I would be happy if we said Guardians, Paladins and Monks are single target defensive tanks and designed to be MT in raids. That Berserkers, Shadowknights and Bruisers are multi-target offensive tanks and by design are intended for the OT role in raids. This would also mean that all tanks should be able to tank instances successfully.

Really it is all speculation without some kind of direction from the Dev team to guide us in our assumptions. 

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Old 08-26-2011, 02:20 PM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

all of this is still under the assumption that SOE has intended for all tanks to have an equal role in raids and group content.

The current state of tank balance however dictates otherwise.

I would be happy if we said Guardians, Paladins and Monks are single target defensive tanks and designed to be MT in raids. That Berserkers, Shadowknights and Bruisers are multi-target offensive tanks and by design are intended for the OT role in raids. This would also mean that all tanks should be able to tank instances successfully.

Really it is all speculation without some kind of direction from the Dev team to guide us in our assumptions. 

You have to be careful with that kind of thing--its basically what they did in TSO, and TSO was by far the worst balance this game has ever seen.  What made it so unbalanced was every bit as much how content was designed with a very heavy AE focus as it was the actual mechanics.

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Old 08-26-2011, 02:39 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

all of this is still under the assumption that SOE has intended for all tanks to have an equal role in raids and group content.

The current state of tank balance however dictates otherwise.

I would be happy if we said Guardians, Paladins and Monks are single target defensive tanks and designed to be MT in raids. That Berserkers, Shadowknights and Bruisers are multi-target offensive tanks and by design are intended for the OT role in raids. This would also mean that all tanks should be able to tank instances successfully.

Really it is all speculation without some kind of direction from the Dev team to guide us in our assumptions. 

I dont think you will get direction unless it is a simple answer such as all tanks should be able to tank any heroic zone and raid. Which will not be the answer you need because some tanks will be better in certain situation then others.

I also think tanks are fairly balanced, but some small mechanic changes are needed. Strikethrough is a badly designed idea. What we needed was a buff on raid npcs that lowered uncontested avoidance by a set amount that did not effect total avoidance buff. Not an ability that garauntees a set % of auto atks to hit. This would naturally keep tanks seeking more and more uncontested avoidance instead of basically breaking every avoid temp buff in game and garaunteeing fighters will always be hit a certain amount. If the devs wanted certain attacks to be garaunteed hits they already had that option with raid npcs able to cast 100% hit rate combat arts.

Secondly is the death save issue which started with shadowknights in TSO able to have a permenantly up 3 trigger death save which at the time was sufficient enough since raids did not have the current trend of death prevent or die mechanics. What ended up happening was the raid developers started to script abilities that were so powerful theyintended to kill your tank enough to strip these death prevention buffs in order to establish challenge. While the brawlers death prevent is not permanat with enough AA's and a focus on reuse it is up a very long time with multiple triggers. This needs to be stopped for the health of the game. ALL death prevents need to be unmodifiable unless by direct means. Long duration death prevents are fine if the tank with those abilites natrually take more damage since they are the most likely to die anyway, but even those should never be maintainable for extended periods of time.

The above two issues are the brawlers biggest benefits in game currently and are the two issues I see ruining tank balance right now.

Of course there is still a need for individual class changes and balance suc as paladins needing a reliable stone skin ability so they can not only compete with gaurds/monks but able to tank the current content.

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Old 08-26-2011, 02:42 PM   #27
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

all of this is still under the assumption that SOE has intended for all tanks to have an equal role in raids and group content.

The current state of tank balance however dictates otherwise.

I would be happy if we said Guardians, Paladins and Monks are single target defensive tanks and designed to be MT in raids. That Berserkers, Shadowknights and Bruisers are multi-target offensive tanks and by design are intended for the OT role in raids. This would also mean that all tanks should be able to tank instances successfully.

Really it is all speculation without some kind of direction from the Dev team to guide us in our assumptions. 

You have to be careful with that kind of thing--its basically what they did in TSO, and TSO was by far the worst balance this game has ever seen.  What made it so unbalanced was every bit as much how content was designed with a very heavy AE focus as it was the actual mechanics.

To be fair the content was is much to blame and ideally the raid developers should allow a mix of aoe and single target content in any given expansion, but SOE tends to grab an idea and stick with it every expansion be it control effects, to a cure fest, to curses, to coop strike/class based debuffs.

Also the reason the more AOE oriented classes are not as needed this expansion has alot to do with the fact there is VERY few aoe encounters in this expansion. So naturally shadowknights, zerkers,and to a smaller extent bruisers/paladins are less needed.

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:34 PM   #28
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You have to be careful with that kind of thing--its basically what they did in TSO, and TSO was by far the worst balance this game has ever seen.  What made it so unbalanced was every bit as much how content was designed with a very heavy AE focus as it was the actual mechanics.

DoV is by far way worse than TSO was when it comes to how OP'd a Fighter class is in relation to others.  There is a ton of content that is killed by Brawlers tanking that can't be killed by any other Fighter until it goes through nerfs.  It has never been like that.

Brawlers in DoV are worse than SKs in TSO and even worse than Mythical Guards in RoK.

Really it seems that SOE rolls out the content "unkillable" and plan on making adjustments to make it killable for progression.  But than guilds just Brawler-push through it.

Tanking in Sullons EM last night I can tell you that the strike thru adjustment on mobs was not nearly enough.  As a SK I was getting destroyed in the upper end on the trash boar mobs.  I died multiple times from strike thru while using Furor during that mess as well.

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Old 08-26-2011, 05:01 PM   #29
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[email protected] wrote:

I dont think you will get direction unless it is a simple answer such as all tanks should be able to tank any heroic zone and raid. Which will not be the answer you need because some tanks will be better in certain situation then others.

Actually even this answer would give everyone an idea of where we need to be. If the responce is that all tanks should be able to tank instances and raids, there is a huge gap that needs to change in the class design or in the mechanics of raids.

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Old 08-26-2011, 11:10 PM   #30
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I like the discussion and what boli was illustrating with his point system was a simplistic overview. Im sure everybody is aware that brawlers are not the instant win button when it comes to tanking but they are definately in the best spot this expansion. I think that if the devs want to keep the deathtouches or the massive incoming aoe damage the same to make a fight challenging, that is fine, but all tanks need to have enough tools to counter that. Paladins are really lacking in this area and increasing the amount I heal for isnt going to prevent a 1 shot or the lack of a stoneskin on demand. Paladins arent the only ones with this issue. Berserkers and Shadowknights need a lot of love in terms of defensive temps.

The memwipes are a little ridiculous in this expansion. Rescues either need to be reworked or certain classes need better or more reliable ones. Paladins only have 3 rescues and that was because holy ground used to be a full 24position increase, now that it is only a 1 position increase we are left in a pretty rough spot with how many memwipes and instadeaths their are now.

DPS for tanks is pretty much garbage right now. It can spike real high but our ca's just dont hit that hard and so the t1 and t2 dps are scaling MUCH better. Im ok if they dont want tanks to be topping parses but either fix how we generate threat or uncap hate xfers and add a lot more hate gain items into the game. As far as dps between the tanks i think its important that some do more than others but at the cost of some survivability because it would make it pointless to bring a defensive tank that does a lot less dps and offers only the same survivability. Right now its pretty much a crapshoot and everybody is bad, some are just worse dps.

Anyway, i dont expect a dev response here or in any of the numerous threads outlining with great detail and offering great suggestions on each of the class boards. After the quagmire that was gu61 being released in the state it was despite a lot of people in testing letting them know how borked the GU was they released it anyway. This staff really does not have a direction nor does it care to listen or even acknowledge the playerbase that is offering good feedback and suggestions that they can use.

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