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Old 10-28-2011, 10:54 AM   #151
Netty

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Where has it been stated that pallys should be up there with guardians and monks? All i have heard about that is back in the days when they tryed to change pallys into a defensiv tank and that would mean droping alot of the aoe and stuff. But that got voted down by the paladins themself.

Making paladins as defensiv as the rest of the two would only mean one thing. The other two not being used. Since when you have a tank that can hold aggro so good both on ST and on aoe. There is no need to use any other tank class. They still needed fixes from what they are now atm tho. If you look at Aoe vs ST both hate and dps atm its kinda much where it should be with the 2 brawlers up where the guardian are.

aoe hate: pally-sk-zerk-bruiser-monk-guard.

Aoe dps: Sk/zerk-pally-bruiser-monk-guard.

Pallys should how ever be the more Defensiv crusader and need more tools than the SK have to stay alive. And with the changes i posted befor i think that would happen and things would be kinda much balanced with the tanks.

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Old 10-28-2011, 11:07 AM   #152
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Netty wrote:

Where has it been stated that pallys should be up there with guardians and monks? All i have heard about that is back in the days when they tryed to change pallys into a defensiv tank and that would mean droping alot of the aoe and stuff. But that got voted down by the paladins themself.

Making paladins as defensiv as the rest of the two would only mean one thing. The other two not being used. Since when you have a tank that can hold aggro so good both on ST and on aoe. There is no need to use any other tank class. They still needed fixes from what they are now atm tho. If you look at Aoe vs ST both hate and dps atm its kinda much where it should be with the 2 brawlers up where the guardian are.

aoe hate: pally-sk-zerk-bruiser-monk-guard.

Aoe dps: Sk/zerk-pally-bruiser-monk-guard.

Pallys should how ever be the more Defensiv crusader and need more tools than the SK have to stay alive. And with the changes i posted befor i think that would happen and things would be kinda much balanced with the tanks.

Paladins have always been the defensive Crusader in the same way Monks and Guardians have always been the defensive Brawler and Warrior. 

It was in a post by Xelgad, not sure but it could have been a beta post, I'll have a quick hunt around.

All Paladins need is a decent stoneskin and another snap, they'll cope very well then as a MT. I'm don't know the Pally as well as I do my monk and Guardian though, TBH, Boli or Meargoth are the 2 people who will know best, they've both tanked at very high levels and know where the class is left wanting.

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Old 10-28-2011, 11:19 AM   #153
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Nope, can't find it, but I can only find 7 of the 43 posts started by Xelgad, I remember Paladins complaining about it at the time because it put Guardians above them in their survivability utility. If I remember right it was a discussion about how he saw the fighters and his aims for them. It was also part of his reasoning for the Zerker Adrenalin nerf I seem to recall.

I'm relatively sure it was Xelgad and that it wasn't during the scrapped fighter revamp although I could be wrong, with any luck someone else who remembers this thread can chime in. Either way, those 3 tank classes have always been the defensive tanks of their sub classes, while they don't all have to be 100% equal, they should all be able to MT HM content. 

As I've said, I don't think strikethrough as a mechanic is a bad thing, it's just how much of it there is now on so many mobs. Every mob with large amounts of strikethrough automatically means a Brawler is a superior tank to any of the Plate tanks, if there existed mobs with Zero strikethrough but hit f**king hard to balance this out it wouldn't matter so much because those mobs you may well want a Plate tank for their extra 10% Mit or so. These mobs just don't exist though, everything has strikethrough and it's being raised to stupid levels now.

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Old 10-28-2011, 11:38 AM   #154
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Your chart really is skewed, especially when you take into account transfers, and more importantly snaps.

Reality is that every Fighter can generate more than enough agro on AE to hold hate off a raid easily with the group set ups that are basically required anyway for transfers.  Also, a Bruiser spec'd right on AE can really out DPS any other Fighter class and generate the highest AE agro imo (and maintain the much superior survivability).

The fail is in snaps specifically.  According to you both Crusaders, Zerks and Bruisers should be AE oriented tanks, and hence be much better at over-all handling AE content...but with multiple mob encounters mem-wiping a ton that just isn't the case.  It is way faster to use snaps to climb back to the top of the hate list on AE encounters than it is to simply generate more agro, so abilities like Reinforcement and Mantis Leap become superior for this.  Also abilities like D&C and the Guard AE target lock are much more usefull as well.

In the end if they are going to give superior tools to the supposedly non-AE tanks for handling AE content what exactly is the point?

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Old 10-28-2011, 11:59 AM   #155
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Bruener wrote:

Your chart really is skewed, especially when you take into account transfers, and more importantly snaps.

Reality is that every Fighter can generate more than enough agro on AE to hold hate off a raid easily with the group set ups that are basically required anyway for transfers.  Also, a Bruiser spec'd right on AE can really out DPS any other Fighter class and generate the highest AE agro imo (and maintain the much superior survivability).

The fail is in snaps specifically.  According to you both Crusaders, Zerks and Bruisers should be AE oriented tanks, and hence be much better at over-all handling AE content...but with multiple mob encounters mem-wiping a ton that just isn't the case.  It is way faster to use snaps to climb back to the top of the hate list on AE encounters than it is to simply generate more agro, so abilities like Reinforcement and Mantis Leap become superior for this.  Also abilities like D&C and the Guard AE target lock are much more usefull as well.

In the end if they are going to give superior tools to the supposedly non-AE tanks for handling AE content what exactly is the point?

You fail to see that Reinforcemnt could be as good as you say for aoe fights. But guards have 2 aoes. one frontal and one pure aoe. both low damage. And the one from the heroic tree that no guard MT with some brains would be specing. Trash pulling with my guard and i rarly keep aggro on aoe from our monk and pally. Guardian aoe target lock? Are you claiming that a 2 sec target lock with like 2k hate on it will make guards a good aoe tank? Not to forget that many Adds are immune to target lock. I can handle aoe 1000% better on my zerk than my guard. And if you cant do that well im not sure its a class thing really. I dont know much about bruiser but i would be you that they dont do more aoe dps or hate than zerks or crusaders. Im not gona talk about mantis leap since that one is on the bruiser aswell that have more aoe controll than the guard. But i still be you that zerks and crusaders can make it easier.

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Old 10-28-2011, 12:00 PM   #156
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Bruener wrote:

Your chart really is skewed, especially when you take into account transfers, and more importantly snaps.

Reality is that every Fighter can generate more than enough agro on AE to hold hate off a raid easily with the group set ups that are basically required anyway for transfers.  Also, a Bruiser spec'd right on AE can really out DPS any other Fighter class and generate the highest AE agro imo (and maintain the much superior survivability).

The fail is in snaps specifically.  According to you both Crusaders, Zerks and Bruisers should be AE oriented tanks, and hence be much better at over-all handling AE content...but with multiple mob encounters mem-wiping a ton that just isn't the case.  It is way faster to use snaps to climb back to the top of the hate list on AE encounters than it is to simply generate more agro, so abilities like Reinforcement and Mantis Leap become superior for this.  Also abilities like D&C and the Guard AE target lock are much more usefull as well.

In the end if they are going to give superior tools to the supposedly non-AE tanks for handling AE content what exactly is the point?

The only "Chart" I've posted at all was how Uncontested avoidance degrades with strikethrough on a plate tank, and how it would if Brawlers had 20% Immunity to it, so I'm not sure what you're on about.

As for the rest of it, this is why in a lot of posts I've made previously I've said that SK's need another snap or a decent recast reduction in graves, drop it to 1min 30 from 3min and with recast reductions it will be down near 45 seconds, this is then the same as Holy Ground and you can use it to pick up adds every add set. If not maxxed on recast, then just manage buffs so it is for these AOE fights, get the troub to Jcap every add set and you're golden.Zerks not so much because they have quite a lot anyway (4-5 spans I seem to recall) but Zerks need quite a bit of help in other areas SMILEY

And FYI, I've not found a single HM add that "Plant" (the Guardian AOE lock) works on, due to them being immune to it. Eireen, Valdemar, Kraytok, Kolskeggr, Modrfrost none of them, I'm not sure about Drunder but I'm sure this pattern follows.

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