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Old 02-20-2008, 04:00 PM   #31
Tames

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Well while I am pretty keen ro see the +5/+7 block on our epics I do see the point to a DPS increase, and an increase like a +% isnt subject to caps and therefore of some use to us.

DPS isnt just agro but in raids where max DPS counts for a lot (as mobs have 100000000000hp) everyone must max their DPS.

In my Guild We run with Guard MT and Zerk OT, this is pretty much rusted on, when I have got a run as MT etc I have done well but it hasnt been in top tier zones and often I am not placed on a raid at all. Therefore I dont have the same damage output etc as the Guard MT and Zerk OT because I dont have the gear that they have. You end up in a feedback loop, because you dont have the gear you dont get on the raids, that get you the gear, that gets you raid spots etc. I am my Guilds only Pally mainly because of the stigma against Pals btw, I was invited initially to use my Swashy and only after a looong time using my Pal in Guild groups was I offered the chance to return to my Pally (former main in a previous guild).

So having a damage increase component to the Epic is still very useful and it should be at least on par with Guards and Zerk epics if not better.

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Old 02-21-2008, 02:38 PM   #32
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Using this reasoning, it does not seem to be working as intended for dramatically improving our DPS in place of tankability. I've yet to be convinced the weapon's design is not to be questioned and strongly believe +100 combat art damage on top of already capped combat art damage is one reason for this.

Does this single item mean that an entire class and community of players is now worthless and we should bail from a sinking ship? Certainly not. A great Paladin is still a great Paladin and it doesn't matter what sword is in their hand. We keep fighting the good fight with our heads held high and hold fast on the thought that this was just an accidental lack of testing and not blatant neglect.

We are tankers and SoE is designing and itemizing the Paladin class in this direction. This MYTHICAL design flaw could not have been intentional.

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Old 02-21-2008, 09:52 PM   #33
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Since you can check my earlier posts on the +100CA disaster you will know that I agree with you SMILEY I do think that DPS increases for spells/CA's shouldnt be subject to caps on the Epics for a start and for +Block to be on both.

Its not just the +100CA but also the +spell proc (based on wisdom) which is also subject to caps (therefore of little use when capped out in raids). So we are stuffed both ways.

Since there is wide agreement that  these procs and effects are design flaws producing a net nil improvement for the raiding these weapons are designed for I am left still waiting for an SOE response. I would have thought a simple "We are working on addressing these unintended design issues and a fix should be in 2 patches from now" would have at least let us know progress was being made. They have said in the past that they are itemising Paladins for their tank role, if thats the case then the Epics are a logical place to have done it properly and put some effort into getting it right. We have apparently fallen into a chasm... between what is said and what is done  SMILEY

However at the end of the day we must judge them by results, since what is said cant be counted on (although nothing is being said so far, so we dont even have that) and so far we are still waiting for anything to be done.

Cheer up though, they found time to fix the Thuuga Bangle for casters SMILEY

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Old 02-22-2008, 07:46 AM   #34
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First off im not a true raider so this may be way off but I think the Mythical version of Truth of Marr would look better like this:Add a plus block to it and scrap holy avenger for an on equip effect that makes heals + wards instant cast. Instant cast heals + wards might be overpowered in solo/group but since this weapon is only really going to see raid content I dont see the issue.Edit: Removed dodgy image after vit pointed out it was wrong! SMILEY
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:26 PM   #35
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Felindar, have you considered using the existing focus skill and "beneficial spell haste" effect to obtain the outcome you want?Also, I was wondering how +spell/+heal compare to direct intelligence for the purposes of spell damage with our low damage procs and spells.  What if that particular proc made our int and wisdom both effectively equal to their sum?  Just brainstorming.  I haven't parsed raw int vs. +spell damage.
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Old 02-22-2008, 06:01 PM   #36
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Paladin on Antonia Bayle from Day 1, and now on Venekor (PVP), I always having to fight the "Not a Raid Tank" Stigma. I completely agree with the change of CA boost to +5 and +7 block chance on the fabled and Mythical weapons respectively.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:43 PM   #37
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[email protected] wrote:
Felindar, have you considered using the existing focus skill and "beneficial spell haste" effect to obtain the outcome you want?Also, I was wondering how +spell/+heal compare to direct intelligence for the purposes of spell damage with our low damage procs and spells.  What if that particular proc made our int and wisdom both effectively equal to their sum?  Just brainstorming.  I haven't parsed raw int vs. +spell damage.
I have looked at reducing my casting times with those methods although i haven never impacted on my casting timers much as I wear mostly EoF/RoK legendary equipment.Can you feisably reduce your casting times all the way down to instant on wards etc?
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Old 02-24-2008, 02:21 PM   #38
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+5(Epic) +7(Mythical) shield blockand fix marr's favor so it actually does somethingnice idea, poor execution
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:23 AM   #39
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sheild effectivness is not block.........its how well the shield is used adding over all 1.5 block....
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:07 AM   #40
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[email protected] wrote:
sheild effectivness is not block.........its how well the shield is used adding over all 1.5 block....
Ah ok. my bad, tnx for letting me know lol SMILEY
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:25 AM   #41
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GU43 on test?

If you read it you will see no changes to Paladin items or abilities. SMILEY

Judging them by what they do.... SMILEY

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Old 02-27-2008, 04:21 PM   #42
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[email protected] wrote:
Can you feisably reduce your casting times all the way down to instant on wards etc?
No, you can't ever cast a spell faster than half of its base casting time, regardless of how much casting haste you can stack up.
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Old 02-27-2008, 04:39 PM   #43
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Truly, If the weapon is not changed the Paladin community should all quit the game. Why settle for  2nd place? That weapon is a 2nd place item. Its not a mythical weapon when looking at the guard mythical. If the Guardians got the Mythical we got do you think they would settle? Cmon lets not accept that as our Class defining weapon. I know most have given up already. "you have and use the weapon daily"  For real...what would the Guardians have done if they got our Mythical and we got thiers?  What ever, the yo yo's at the dev team are happy with there creation but im not.
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Old 02-27-2008, 11:28 PM   #44
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i agree with moto, as a stand alone weapon, it isnt bad, but there is nothing "Epic" about it.  It does not play on our strengths or mitigate our weaknesses, it's "special" abilities are intentionally or not, subpar with other tanking epics.  I would just like one dev to step in here and say whether they are working on it or not, so i know if its time to retire my favorite toon for one that gets more love from the powers that be.
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Old 03-01-2008, 04:56 AM   #45
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I am kind of curious what role the Dev's think we are supposed to be playing, they give us holy ground, which puts us 24 places up... but then give us divine aura with an ungodly long casting time and reuse timer...and force you to either take up a struggling healer role or a main tank role with a few shortfalls. How often is reinforcement recast on a guardian by the way?

But back to the Mythical, what do you think the exact role that weapon was created for? Obviously not main raid tank, but what is the role?

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Old 03-01-2008, 06:49 PM   #46
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The weapon is more for a secondary tank and thats what SOE sees us as. At the end of the day SOE holds all the cards to the game and were stuck with the joker card. I do feel the weapon is not well suited to our class due to the fact the community most of the time uses a  secondary tank to fill the main tanks void.I see this everyday when I log on rarely im invited to a group just to be a secondary tank. About 98% of my time in groups is main tanking period. As how my pally stands for now this weapon does not fall into my effectiveness with my Pally's server community. They expect me to tank and I have to deliver and I need the weaponds,armor,adornments,and buffs to work for me. Soo in closing since this weapon dosent serve me in any way shape or form I have just move on and not let this affect my other goals and quests I have set for my pally.

 Its interesting If SOE creates a weapon and no one uses it..Then they have wasted their time and resourses.

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Old 03-03-2008, 10:06 AM   #47
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NANEEJE wrote:

I am kind of curious what role the Dev's think we are supposed to be playing, they give us holy ground, which puts us 24 places up... but then give us divine aura with an ungodly long casting time and reuse timer...and force you to either take up a struggling healer role or a main tank role with a few shortfalls. How often is reinforcement recast on a guardian by the way?

But back to the Mythical, what do you think the exact role that weapon was created for? Obviously not main raid tank, but what is the role?

I'm thinking the epic was designed by well intentioned people that looked at what paladin abilties do and said to themselves "lets give them more!"

Honestly, we don't need another heal. While we're kings of holding agro on a group of mobs...the entire paradim of mob placement has gone away from multiple mobs in a single linked encounter and thus away from our tanking strength. Giving us huge bonuses to spells and healing because that is was is unique to us as tanks...we just don't have enough spells to make this worth while. Also as a tank, its difficult to use spells due to interupts and movement.

So really, I don't think they intended any role here. I think they just wanted to give us more of the same. Too bad they didn't ask "what do paladins lack?" instead.

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Old 03-06-2008, 09:25 PM   #48
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Ive posted this in flames as well but wanted to put the idea out there here on the official forums.

 Would be nice if the mythical did somthing with our aa's what if it increased every aa by x1.2 or x1.4 or somthing, imagine it, shield block would be 24x1.2 = +28.8%, divine aura would be 50%x1.2 =60%, just check out the rest even x1.2 is nice everything is 20% better, haste, melle aoe. And it would fit us cos its our aa's (hp increase of sentrys bulwark another good example = 4.8% insead of 4% with 8 points in it)Of casue I preffere the x1.4 idea (40%) but x1.2 would be very nice.Just think the above would be an awsome thing to have, would be individual to us and would improve our dps and tanking but allow you to tailor just as u we do now.

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Old 03-17-2008, 02:10 AM   #49
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When is some official indication (apart from an ad hoc response to a webcast question) of change is to be made on SOE forums?

So far we have an unofficial "trust us we are working on Epics and VP gear" which is hard to accept since this would have been the same response before the flawed itemisation occured in the first place.

I suppose its hard to give any indication when GU44 changes can be bumped by other priorities that can occur on an ad hoc basis ("Barbies new hat&quotSMILEY that can occur with any large organisation.

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Old 03-17-2008, 07:37 AM   #50
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Tamesan wrote:

When is some official indication (apart from an ad hoc response to a webcast question) of change is to be made on SOE forums?

So far we have an unofficial "trust us we are working on Epics and VP gear" which is hard to accept since this would have been the same response before the flawed itemisation occured in the first place.

I suppose its hard to give any indication when GU44 changes can be bumped by other priorities that can occur on an ad hoc basis ("Barbies new hat"SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> that can occur with any large organisation.

It would be very difficult to think that development could come up with a higher priority issue than epics for the people involved. It isn't like they have to monkey around with art assets. (maybe they should, but that's another matter entirely.) Your talking about revamping base effects on at most 24 items. After they come up with a good idea of what they want the changes to be it shouldn't take too long to impliment unless they come with something totally new and they need code people to help out.

Of course, if they actually are listning to this feedback we're giving they are going to have to choose one and figure out how to make it fit with their own idea of game balance.

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Old 03-17-2008, 09:50 PM   #51
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Hmm but it must be very hard for them to do because it isnt happening.... SMILEY

I always though good CS was keeping customers in the loop, when this doesnt happen I expect the worst.

How much effort does it take for an update paragraph on this issue?

I am beginning to think GU44 will be an exciting new pet or new town clothes from the faction vendor!

However theres always always GU45 in 6 months time isnt there? SMILEY

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Old 03-19-2008, 01:23 PM   #52
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Just giving my support to the cause.

All SKs also want the change in epic so i have made a post in gameplay discussion with what i think would help all crusaders. If anyone got a dev response let us know.

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Old 03-19-2008, 09:39 PM   #53
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I think a very interesting effect would be a more novel effect. While it doesn't focus on "Block" it would focus more on hate gain and supporting the healers in the group. Like 65% Chance to Cast "Wave of Marr" on group/raid on succesful melee hit. An often proccing large group heal that maybe  increases our threat spot may add to the healing and taunting utility. I mean, if they are trying to increase our utility afterall, a damage dealing/threat dealing + Group Heal combo supported by an Epic weapon might not be a horrible way to go. I'm sure it's not the popular opinion, but just throwing some constructive suggestion out there.
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:53 PM   #54
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I realize that I'm a long way from getting this Mythical weapon, and that when I do it will most likely be grossly outdated (I finally got my Fiery Avenger in EQLive and it was just a pretty thing I would wear around PoK on my pally (non-unicorn thank you) mount for looks.

I would suggest that for this incarnation that Sony put a lot more thought into what Pallies CAN be rather than what they ARE (a sentiment that I feel is common on this thread). We currently seem to be offtanks primarily, and occasionally main tank some of the lower content. The best comment I saw on another thread was that there shouldn't be "1 tank to tank them all." After I left EQ1, I went over to WoW and found that this phenomena there relegated virtually all tanking duties to 1 class. The problem with that is that it marginalizes the possible variety. EQ2 has tons of choices for race and class. Why make it so that I have to play Guardian to be a real tank? I understand balance is hard to achieve, but +100 to combat arts? LOL even a very high DPS rating 2hander with mitigation on it and inherent 2H bash (Pally epic from EQLive) would be better in a lot of ways.

That said, I put several years into my paladin on EQLive, and will likely do the same here. I just hope that I'm not the gimptarded 2nd rate OffTank that SOE seems to be turning us into by the time I can really enjoy endgame.

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Old 04-09-2008, 10:44 PM   #55
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Well GU 44 has come and no changes to Fabled or Myth Epic, no official word from Devs on when/if it will be fixed or if they are looking at it.

/crickets

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Old 04-10-2008, 01:54 PM   #56
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Its odd a "tank" class does not have 1 single  0 nada zip abilty to prevent incoming damage. I think we all know that Paladins will never get a TOS - stone sphere -mit buff - self AE immunity- AA line block or taunt while stunned.  There was alot of hope in that Paladin Mythical. Only to be let down hardSMILEY.  I have been told by some, to just accept that we will not get any abilty to keep us on par with Guards. When i read the test notes Paladins were getting Holyground,   to me that was a sign that SOE had good plans for the class. I dont find it fun putting all my time into a class thinking its going to be a viable main tank. To only see guards lock down that roll better than ever.
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Old 04-11-2008, 11:24 AM   #57
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I know a lot of classes complain about their Epic and I believe if they revamp / update them, it will be all at once. Mainly to try to keep stuff as balance as possible.

A nice way to increase our dps would be also to change the Proc Effect to boost the BASE Damage of Spell and Arts. If the base damage is increase, then our "cap" will also get increase and will make high end pally have a better use of their gear.

A bonus to shield of some sort would be nice to make Paladin, once again, the class that benefice the most of a shield.

3rd but none the less make the Damage rating much higher then a regular 1hander (180+). You might think its very high but since Paladin (like SK) cant DW, I dont think it would be over power (they did something similar with sk/pally only weapon with a much higher damage in eq1 to help their dps).

On side note to me, a paladin that complain that cant tank as well as a guard is very similar to a illu that complain that he cant dps as high as a wizard. Answer is simple, ITS NOT MEANT to be like that and will never be. But then again, to some people since I dont have my access to VP I am a total ignorant that doesn't know crap about this game even if I've been around since day 1.

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Old 04-11-2008, 04:18 PM   #58
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Brizlor wrote:

I know a lot of classes complain about their Epic and I believe if they revamp / update them, it will be all at once. Mainly to try to keep stuff as balance as possible.

A nice way to increase our dps would be also to change the Proc Effect to boost the BASE Damage of Spell and Arts. If the base damage is increase, then our "cap" will also get increase and will make high end pally have a better use of their gear.

A bonus to shield of some sort would be nice to make Paladin, once again, the class that benefice the most of a shield.

3rd but none the less make the Damage rating much higher then a regular 1hander (180+). You might think its very high but since Paladin (like SK) cant DW, I dont think it would be over power (they did something similar with sk/pally only weapon with a much higher damage in eq1 to help their dps).

On side note to me, a paladin that complain that cant tank as well as a guard is very similar to a illu that complain that he cant dps as high as a wizard. Answer is simple, ITS NOT MEANT to be like that and will never be. But then again, to some people since I dont have my access to VP I am a total ignorant that doesn't know crap about this game even if I've been around since day 1.

Yes, ignorant does best describe you. If you play a tank class and your main concern is dps? Then you have gone and fooled your self my friend. Tanks number 1 priority is reducing the amount of "incoming" damage. "Not there out going damage".  You have been playing since day 1 huh?   Have a nice day.......
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Old 04-11-2008, 04:50 PM   #59
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motogpgp wrote:
Brizlor wrote:

I know a lot of classes complain about their Epic and I believe if they revamp / update them, it will be all at once. Mainly to try to keep stuff as balance as possible.

A nice way to increase our dps would be also to change the Proc Effect to boost the BASE Damage of Spell and Arts. If the base damage is increase, then our "cap" will also get increase and will make high end pally have a better use of their gear.

A bonus to shield of some sort would be nice to make Paladin, once again, the class that benefice the most of a shield.

3rd but none the less make the Damage rating much higher then a regular 1hander (180+). You might think its very high but since Paladin (like SK) cant DW, I dont think it would be over power (they did something similar with sk/pally only weapon with a much higher damage in eq1 to help their dps).

On side note to me, a paladin that complain that cant tank as well as a guard is very similar to a illu that complain that he cant dps as high as a wizard. Answer is simple, ITS NOT MEANT to be like that and will never be. But then again, to some people since I dont have my access to VP I am a total ignorant that doesn't know crap about this game even if I've been around since day 1.

Yes, ignorant does best describe you. If you play a tank class and your main concern is dps? Then you have gone and fooled your self my friend. Tanks number 1 priority is reducing the amount of "incoming" damage. "Not there out going damage".  You have been playing since day 1 huh?   Have a nice day.......
come out from anon, let us see who you are, if you cant dps you cant hold aggro, aggro is our number one priority, staying alive is 2nd. so in a way dps is key....so once again who are you again? seems to me just another bitter person who got shafted in because they werent very good, and instead of figuring out how to improve you would rather rag on everyone else, come over to flames see how ya do there SMILEY
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Old 04-11-2008, 05:52 PM   #60
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Nice try Bud. Since when does identity coincide with fact?  Im going to let you in on a secret, Zerkers and Guards need dps as there main agrro control. You are a Paladin, Agrro is effortless . The main concern as a Paladin should be the lowering of incoming damage.   Go to eq2flames?  You need back up or somethig?   SOE no longer recognizes that site. Neither do i ...
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