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Old 11-02-2014, 08:18 PM   #31
Mermut

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The difference between leveling adventuring and tradeskilling.. there are lots of things to do to level adventuring. Given the amount of xp needed to level 96-100 TS.. there is only one way to level... mindlessly grind rush orders..
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:22 PM   #32
Cisteros

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Also, maybe I have been doing it wrong all these years. I always considered crafting quests a diversion to alleviate the grind of leveling via writs, not as the tool for leveling.

Besides, think of all that guild status we'll earn as we level from 95-100 that won't be wasted on max level guilds anymore
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:59 PM   #33
Mermut

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So you'd be happy if the only way to level adventuring was adventure writs? Think of all the status you'd get!
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Old 11-02-2014, 11:26 PM   #34
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Im pretty sure i can pull all of skyshrine at once at get level 100 in less time than a tradeskiller can~
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:20 AM   #35
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We need to get to 100 to make spells and gear for our level 100 characters. Crafters don't level for the hell of it. They level to equip their alts or to meet the needs of the adventuring economy.
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:58 AM   #36
Deveryn

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Unfortunately, this is the limitation of crafting. There isn't much entertainment to be had. There never was, aside from some of the one-off quests. It's always been about crafting as the means to level, just as you have to kill things to level adventuring. It was never designed to be something fun (though engaging), but something that gave you a fair shot at making items, back when most other games had you press a button to decide whether you would succeed or fail.

That economy has been in ruins for quite some time. If anything, this will hopefully thin out the numbers and help make it a profitable venture again, at least for a little while. People have leveled crafters for the hell of it. It's why some have 9 or more. I had actually done it to support a guild, but when that was done, I kept everyone else up just because. In these days, where you have 3 sources to pull materials out of thin air, I find it something of a welcome change and I intend to focus on one character to make some money when this new stuff comes out.
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Old 11-03-2014, 08:33 AM   #37
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*chuckle* You haven't tried making money crafting recently have you?
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:56 PM   #38
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be glad WORT's are gone Smile
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Old 11-03-2014, 03:45 PM   #39
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LOL and the xp per item done in a rush order is at most 150x6=900 (since our vet bonuses will be disappearing) + the xp for completing the writ is about 7,000 at 95 so 7900 xp every three minutes which figures to be roughly 30 iterations for a total of 90 minutes to level 95-96, on the other hand i can take any adventure class at 95 to Skyshrine (if all I want is to get the levels) and kill three opponents every minute (not being greedy and overestimating the time for a worst case scenario, my tank classes can actually do 10-15 mobs in about 30-45 seconds) with each kill without vet bonuses worth 7k or 21,000 cumulative. equating to 57 minutes. Of course the amount of time it takes any individual is immaterial, SoE allots 8:30 for each rush order. So in good faith I could assume that is the number that is expected, and anything less is exceptional which makes for a much uglier 254 minutes 30 seconds ( have to finish before the clock runs out after all so gotta leave 1 second on it) or 4 hours 14 minutes 30 seconds.

An adventure class may take more experience to level than a crafting class, but an adventure class can kill multiple sources of xp at the same time, or participate in a group thus making it quicker to kill those multiple sources, additionally each source of xp is worth more than each item crafted and often more than the completion of a writ. If you truly think it takes less time for a crafter to earn those 237,600 points than it does for an adventurer to earn 1,212,000 points then I can only respectfully disagree. I can tell you my first task on expansion day will be the beginning of leveling my army or crafters. I am not slow when it comes to rush orders my times ranging from 2:40-3:30, but I would bet you a 1,000 plat that in the same amount of time it takes me to hit 96 there will be many adventurers dinging 97 or 98 and a few who will hit 99 or 100 in that same time. That is provided the experience requirements per level 96-100 do not increase drastically for adventurers. Which given the almost nonexistent increase 95-96* I can only assume will be the case.

As for what parity I am championing? It has been a while since I leveled a toon 94-95 but looking here:

http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Development

It takes 1,264,323 experience to go from 94-95 (OK, that better be wrong or I have an entirely different rant), meaning that my adventuring classes' xp requirements dropped by 4.1%, while my crafters' increased by 375.2%**. Justify it any way you choose, you are rewarding adventurers for adventuring and punishing crafters for crafting. That is regardless of the accuracy of the numbers listed on the wiki, because at most if they are wrong adventurers would have only had a 4-5% increase which is still, in essence, a reward, relatively speaking. As I said before how that parity is applied I do not care. A moderate increase for adventurers say 50% and decreasing the TS xp to 175,000 would work for me, or a straight up doubling of adventure xp requirements and leaving the TS xp the way it is, or finally just lowering the TS xp to about 150,000. I do not want easy, so the one thing method I absolutely do not want (If the wiki numbers are correct) is a 4% reduction in TS xp to 48,000.

We have had a form of this discussion in the past, and I will not belabor the point too much. While I agree that tradeskilling is more relaxing in a mental sense, it goes to the extreme so much so that it becomes mind numbingly boring. And while adventuring is more work, it is also more engaging. As for your personal experiences with finger and wrist troubles, well not to be rude, but that doesn't really matter. I suffer from osteoarthritis and early onset Parkinson's and could just as easily point out that those 30 rush orders ( for one level) are going to leave me needing to rest for at least 90 minutes between levels as my pain, and shakes will be so much worse after a nice little marathon of crafting like that, but that too doesn't really matter. People are different and that part of it just should not figure into it at all.




*If the wiki numbers are correct edit this from almost nonexistent to nonexistent

**Depending on an outside source's numbers for this math. Feel free to post a correction if the source numbers are incorrect as disinformation is not my intent.
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:25 PM   #40
Deveryn

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I bring up my hands and wrists because it illustrates the point that adventuring has a tendency to be more demanding. We have indeed had this conversation a number of times. The fact remains it has been way too easy for people to level a crafter. This correction is long overdue and shouldn't be any surprise to anyone. Perhaps there might be more interaction now that people can't easily one-stop-shop themselves and make other people irrelevant. A few will probably still do it and get an early push done.

And please stop referring to this as a punishment. No one did anything wrong and turning this into some kind of guilt trip won't solve anything.
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Old 11-04-2014, 04:41 AM   #41
Lateana

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It is really, really stupid to punish crafters this way. No matter how you calculate the numbers crafters are being sent the message that they are not wanted in the this expansion. I love the new quests but they are not enough to make up for this hatred of crafters.
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Old 11-04-2014, 05:25 AM   #42
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It is odd that the tradeskill timeline only gives 1/2 level... with full vet bonus and beta server bonus.. neither of which will pertain when the expac goes live. Especially since the rewards from the quest line are all lvl 97+...
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Old 11-04-2014, 04:03 PM   #43
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Please elaborate on how are they hated or not wanted. They make most of the best spells now and we'll surely see more best-in-slot gear. XP grind aside, they're still living in the lap of luxury, with everything else practically handed to them.

Thanks to this wonderfully easy quest line, I have 9 carpets to claim on my characters and I'll probably get another before beta ends. (I have nothing in the way of adventuring rewards.) Woe is me. It's a hard knock life. Roll Eyes
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Old 11-05-2014, 03:48 AM   #44
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I've really only started spending a proper amount of time in Beta in the last couple of days, and all of that has been on the tradeskilling side. Having so far gotten through about 2/3 of the questline, I've gained a level and a bit more. That seems fine to me. I certainly would not expect it to be significantly more.

I've been in EQII since 2004, and each time a level cap raise has occurred, the time it took to reach the new tradeskill level cap was less than the last. I think I recall making the 92->95 jump within 90 minutes of the servers coming back up, or something like that, it was so little XP needed to gain levels. We were just about at the point where it was putting a button on the interface saying "Click this to hit the new tradeskill level cap".

And yet despite it being stupidly trivial and fast, still there were a few folks saying how "hard" and/or "boring" the grind was. I am unsure why anyone who felt that way would actually choose to craft at all, but it is a weird world. But now I see a couple of folks making that complaint again about this new expansion, I just look at those people as wanting the "Click this to hit the new tradeskill level cap" button.

I do not want such a button. I do not want us getting closer to one either.

So I am please to see Caith say "you won't be able to sneeze and gain a level".

Personally, I'd prefer the amount of XP needed was the same for tradeskilling as it is for adventuring.
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Old 11-05-2014, 03:38 PM   #45
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How much of a vet bonus and beta experience bonus you have going during that which will go away once AoM goes live?
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:35 PM   #46
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LOL as the OP I can say the increase in TS xp does not bother me, no matter who else may have said such a thing in this particular thread. I am disturbed that they multiplied TS xp requirements by a factor of five (almost 4.8 if you are a nitpicker) and DECREASED adventure xp requirements. Apparently they want to put that easy button in for adventurers. I do not want easy, I want parity. Despite Caith's claims, and Deveryn's personal preference as to which he finds easier* 5 times the current xp is in no way equal. Leveling through the 90's with a 50k xp requirement only took about 15 minutes each (and I'll agree that was too easy, easier than the adventure side), but realistically no level as an adventurer (91-95) took me more than 35 minutes so making that number lower and the TS requirements 5 times higher (added to the fact we will be losing our vet bonuses) means we will now need roughly three times as long as an adventurer will to gain a level, and to me that is not fair either. Doubling adventure xp or reducing TS to about 175k would both be equitable choices in my opinion. TS and adventure should have a parity I agree, but making those numbers the same would not be the way to do it imho. You can realistically gain adventure xp 10 times faster than TS xp, so that parity should be in time investment required.

Also unless they changed the xp rewards (Possible) the TS timeline only grants about 40% of a level. Which was kind of chintzy since the WL questline gave you about 60% and only had 4 parts. It will be a most welcome gift if it is indeed worth more.

Of course all my complaints aside, looking at all the items available for us to make, I am going to gladly level all of those levels.Smile


*Not trying to call you out Deveryn, Sorry if it seems that way,heh. I find crafting easier from a mental point of view, but my physical limitations make solo leveling as an adventurer easier, as the repetitiveness of the actions while crafting does hurt my wrists and fingers.Which is why I said one way or the other it doesn't matter how easy any individual player finds it physically or mentally, rather any change should reflect an attempt to make an average player's time investment roughly the same. Current levels are too easy, and biased towards crafters over adventurers. Turning that so that an extreme bias in time now exists for the adventurer is not the way to go though, because yes the TS line is easy, but so are the adventure quests, and they will get you 8 times farther through your levels even though there is only 4 times more of them. If they make them both take roughly 90 minutes per level for me, I will have no complaints. It is the radical increase in one, and decrease in the other that makes me call it unfair. Roughly like the class balancing they try to do (especially when PVP rules change things in PVE) wherein they completely gut a class defining ability because it is OP in PVP. Balancing anything should be more delicate not the ham fisted, break it the other way approach they seem to take. I suppose I should accept that my time investment will be less in the end, because once I have my recipes I am done, but for an adventurer the levels are just the beginning of a long grind for gear.
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:22 PM   #47
Lateana

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If I remember correctly, 100% Beta Bonus and 200% for having max level crafters.

If people are now getting a level and a half at 2/3rds of the way through, then the XP has changed. It was 1/2 a level for doing all the quests.
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:27 PM   #48
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So once the bonuses go away on live its looking like 4 levels worth of writs or so then?
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:58 AM   #49
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So I did a couple of level 95 writs, then did the tradeskill questline up through earning the mount and the first two from the bottle series which took me to 97 so I could test the new writs. I get a rush order and wanted to wait till I knew which four recipes would be the pool to pull from before using a potion of progress and an exp potion. I'm going along and before I can blink my item is complete at pristine level. I make another one and this time pay attention to the numbers. It is only taking 500 progress to complete an item. Without using any crafting gear it is taking me three rounds to finish, which is what it takes on Live to finish an item with a progress potion active. If this is intended then it may take the 20+ writs someone claimed earlier but the time invested will be a lot less than currently to do the same number of writs.
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