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Old 06-14-2005, 04:35 PM   #1
Jakemm

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Let me start off by saying that if these questions have been answered in the past, I am sorry for asking them again (I did a search and could not find the answer.)  I am a new paladin, and have recently started grouping with a group of friends. 
 
For the last two nights, we were in the Vermin's Snye, and while fighting groups of mobs, we were also surrounded by grey, non-aggro mobs.  It seemed that whenever I would use one of my AoE taunts or spells, it would hit (thus aggro) the non-engaged mobs as well.  First, I just wanted to make sure that I was not imagining this.
 
More importantly, when in a situation like this, what is the best way to maintain aggro on all of the mobs in the encounter without engaging the non-aggro mobs, but also not getting the healer(s) beat on.  I tried a couple of fights where I would concentrate on only the mob I was fighting, and the healers would end up getting beat on before the first mob was down.  I also tried selecting each of the mobs in the encounter and taunting them separately.
 
What I would love to hear is what you higher level paladins do for aggro in cases like this.  Any advice for an aspiring holy warrior would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you in advance.
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Old 06-14-2005, 04:45 PM   #2
Caslav

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When I was in VS and CoB alot, this happened all the time.  If you use your AoE attack, it will hit gray or green non-aggressive mobs if they are "in the area".  If you use your AoE taunt, it should not.  At least I have never seen that happen.  I have found that if I nuke to start, AoE taunt as the mobs approach me, followed by doing the first HO, you should not loose aggro there. 

That dungeon is hard because of all the wandering mobs.  Youo really cant AoE attack without bringing in more mobs than what you started with. 

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Old 06-14-2005, 05:19 PM   #3
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The key to AOE use is hotkey background color.  If you examine the icon on your hotkey bar closely, you'll notice your AOE taunt has a green background.  If you study the AOE attacks, you'll notice the background color on the icon is blue.
 
Hotkeys that have green backgrounds do NOT affect groups outside of your current encounter.  This means it is safe to use the green backgrounds without picking up adds.
 
Hotkeys that have a blue blackground typically affect mobs IN THE AREA.  You need to be careful when you use such attacks to ensure you don't pick up unwanted mobs.  However, by using the AOE, you most likely made first strike on the mobs (gray ones) so they should have attacked you instead of another party member.  If the whole group is targeting you as the main tank, they shouldn't be dishing out damage to the other mobs thus they shouldn't be drawing aggro.  However, should they take your aggro in this situation use your taunts and wards to get it back.  Likewise, make sure the rest of the group isn't using AOE attacks if you're certain you are not the culprit SMILEY
 
I tend to use AOE attacks when
a. I'm alone and want to clear a bunch of gray mobs and burn a lot of mana SMILEY
b. The group unintentionally picks up aggro from an add and there's too many to manage (we don't have a main assist).  Doing damage to all the mobs with an AOE is a good way to focus all the attention on yourself.
 
When I was your level I grouped with at least two player classes that could MEZ.  They were extremely upset when I would use my AOE taunt (not attacks) claiming it would break the MEZ.  This is NOT true.  Hitting an attack on a MEZ'd mob will break the MEZ, taunting it single or AOE will NOT break the MEZ.
 
Thanks,
Kalen
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Old 06-14-2005, 06:36 PM   #4
Jakemm

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Thank you both for the quick and informative answers.  I never realized that the different AoE type spells had different background colors, thus different effects.  This will make my job on multiple mob encounters much easier.  Can I assume that healers healing me will generate aggro with all mobs in the encounter, though?  I know in EQ, healers could generate a lot of mob hate by healing too early / too much.  My point being that even if everyone is assisting on me (as they should be), the healers could draw aggro from other mobs in the attacking group (not from non-aggro mobs).  Thank you again for bearing with me; I really want to be the best paladin I can be, and your insight and previous posts have made me better already.

Message Edited by Jakemm on 06-14-2005 07:40 AM

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Old 06-14-2005, 06:57 PM   #5
TheGreatStoney

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Healers will generate aggro from healing you. Some more than others. These affect all mobs within the encounter.

The templars I group with like to get a reactive heal off before we start a fight.

Make a macro to inform them you are preparing to pull, and tell them to buff up.

Letting the healers set up a few wards/reactives before a fight help, and lessen the aggro gain they will get at the start of a fight.

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Old 06-14-2005, 06:59 PM   #6
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If you are  pushing the envelope on mobs (yellow and orange heroic ^^), the healer is going to be busy spamming heals and yes the healer will probably take your aggro if you're not working it very hard.

In this particular type of situation, I would assign a MA (main assist).  This person will be the individual the party targets to "fight through."  All the dps classes focus on the main assist to kill the mob--Why?  This frees me up to cycle through each mob without messing up the group targeting me.  As I cycle through all the mobs, I can individually taunt and build hate across the board.  If the healer is having a hard time keeping up on heals, I will use our blessed aid line and heal myself if  mana isn't an issue to 1. keep me in the green and 2. offset some of the healing hate the healer is generating.

I rarely, these days use a MA for regular 6 person grouping (do in raids).  I focus on HOs in three man and four man flavors and I use Call to Glory and Prayer of Conviction (at my levels) to generate group buffs that keep mobs angry.  I can't recall the last time a healer stole my aggro in tier 5 (although I remember it a lot in lower level tiers SMILEY  It's always the big dps guns that get it today doing several thousand points of damage per attack.  You are going to loose aggro--don't sweat it!  Work your skills, taunt single, taunt aoe, shield bash (our 3 taunts total), call to glory (group buff), prayer of devotion/conviction (group buff) and ward (Demonstration of Faith depending on your level). 

If you have to (rescue sometimes work) and certainly redemption helps on the heavy hitters if you have no other choice to hold aggro.

Good luck!
Kalen

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Old 06-14-2005, 07:16 PM   #7
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Great advice Stoney!

Always make sure the healers cast their reactive heals prior to your pull.  You will learn over time the spell effect look of the reactives from the various healing classes.  It will get to a point, where when you say "pulling", the healer will cast the reactive automatically, you will see the spell effect and then you'll actually pull with little or no other communication as you'll realize visually you're warded. (the fine tuned group engine I call it SMILEY

Healers know at higher levels debuffing a mob during your pull or casting a heal as your trying to gain initial aggro = healer aggro = which equals the healer chain healing himself/herself = which equals HARD time getting back aggro and maybe a dead healer especially those with low mitigation in lighter armor.

Aggro management is a group effort that everyone has to learn.  Most people in the 40-50 range have figured it out, although not everyone.  It's not out of the question to request the group do something different or follow your directions/advice to help with aggro.  Trust me, most people don't want aggro -- they want you with the aggro if you are the tank, but they still struggle in their own profession understanding all their skills and when to use them at the exact right time.  Not everyone played EQ1 (myself included) and many new players (not just ALTs) are just starting in the game--met 3 last night, so be patient and provide instructions.

When I hit tier 3 in Thundering Steppes after rollout, I thought I was good tank--I learned quickly, I sucked! SMILEY  An old 70 Paladin from EQ1 pulled me to the side and taught me the ropes on aggro management and what a tank is supposed to be doing in a full group, how to turn mobs, how to study healer and group mana so I didn't have to always ask when the group was ready for my next pull.  I went from thinking I was doing well in tier 2, which I did, to learning a whole new game playing with tons of new professions and even classes I'd never seen before.

I was worried in lower tiers that I would come across as barking out orders or as a dictator asking the group to do things I wanted to help with aggro or keep everyone alive.  What I've learned is that people are happy to comply (some miss reading instructions in group chat sometimes SMILEY, but most like you taking control of the situation, placing party members in safe spots, leading the group first in the zone, which in my opinion makes for a fun gaming experience if you are a leader and like to take charge, which I do.  If I ask someone in the group to do something, they know i'm not being a butt about the situation but that I'm watching out for their best interest.  If I screw up, I admit it, and we move on and try again.  If someone has a suggestion, I listen and almost always try what they suggest as I like to experiment and explore new tactics.

You'll know it's going well when you log onto the system and tells are waiting from a variety of players both guild and non-guild based wanting you to tank for them.  I couldn't find a group in my high teens and low 20's and would sit around for up to an hour with LFG on and no luck, but after playing a lot with a lot of different players that got XP, loot, no debt, etc, I can't find time to craft today.

Thanks,
Kalen

 

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Old 06-14-2005, 08:59 PM   #8
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All your spells have colour coded backgrounds as follow: Yellow: Self only Purple: Whole Group Green: Encounter AOE Blue: Distance Based AOE Red: Current Target (Some are friendly targets only, others are enemy targets only. If the current target isn't a legitimate target for the spell or art then it will carry through to their target (if that target is legitimate))
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Old 06-14-2005, 09:09 PM   #9
Karlen

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>>>More importantly, when in a situation like this, what is the best way to maintain aggro on all of the mobs in the encounter without engaging the non-aggro mobs, but also not getting the healer(s) beat on. <<< As others have mentioned, most Pally "area" spells are the blue ones that attack anyone in range (although they have different ranges, some farther than others).  The best ways to get group aggro are your group taunts (blinding light) and your wards, heals and buffs.   Casting a ward on yourself will usually get aggro from every mob.  As well, using your group buffs may have the same effect.   I have found the most important thing to remember when tanking is that it is NOT your job to damage the mobs.  That's what your group members are for.   Your job is to save your power for taunts and other aggro-management efforts. Someone mentioned a good idea:  having a "main assist" other than the tank whose job it is to direct the damage-dealing for the group so that they tank can cycle through the mobs to single-taunt. Also note which of your combat skills (like the shield bash one) have hate increasers as a side-effect. One thing to note about wards:  apparently they create aggro for the caster when they are cast, then create aggro for the recipient when they take hits.   This means that if someone else gets the aggro, throwing a ward on them can help to get the aggro back on you (and protect them at the same time). Also, use Redemption.  This transfers something like 25-30% of one persons aggro onto you.  Cast it either on the healer or a high DPS person like a mage and everything they generate hate, you will get some.
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Old 06-14-2005, 09:10 PM   #10
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There are exceptions to the rule.

We have no purple background spells, yet our Prayers line has a yellow background that effects the group.  Likewise our Call to Glory line is on a blue background and also effects the group.

Thanks,
Kalen

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Old 06-14-2005, 10:35 PM   #11
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SanJun wrote:

There are exceptions to the rule.

We have no purple background spells, yet our Prayers line has a yellow background that effects the group.  Likewise our Call to Glory line is on a blue background and also effects the group.


I don't know about the prayers line, don't have any yet at 27, but the divine inspiration etc. line actually havea  purple background, but the picture on it has a blue background, I only figured this out after seeing the icon for the monks equivalent.
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Old 06-14-2005, 11:56 PM   #12
Caslav

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In my measley 31 levels, I have found that the hands down hardest class to duo with is a fury.  It either works really really well or very very bad!  I don't seem to have this problem with templars or wardens.   I can't figure out why this is.

On a side note, I hate...H-A-T-E when I am turned into lion form.  GRRRRRRRRRRR. :smileytongue:

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