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Old 08-02-2011, 07:30 PM   #61
Rockefeller

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Xelgad wrote:

We decided to scrap the pet Spell Multi-Attack (Doublecast) for several reasons.  First, we wanted to move away from pet-specific AAs. As some of you know, scout pets did technically get some benefit from SDA because their attacks are classified as spells, but fighter pets did not really benefit at all. Additionally, in terms of AA versus AA balance (within the Summoner tree), Focused Minion was obviously much too powerful. At least to some degree, that was the result of the improvements to SDA in GU60. Back in Sentinel's Fate Beta, we balanced the amount of SDA for this AA taking into account that pets used some DoTs that would not get full benefit. Lastly, we don't think Summoners are in need of any boosts in power on Live currently, but we have been looking forward to revamping the Summoner AA tree for years. Our goal is to revamp the tree without giving a signficiant net gain (or loss) in power to the class.
 
Literally every AA in the tree is subject to change based on your feedback, and I'm hopeful we'll be able to get it set up so that you guys are reasonably happy with it even without the old Focused Minion.

Thank you Xelgad for the feedback. We understand you ar every busy and you can't address every question, but it is nice to know our concerns are not falling on deaf ears. We do appreciate it when you Devs chime in every now and then.

Focused Minion was indeed a very powerful AA option, however it also played a factor in keeping summoners competitive as well as viable option in grouping and raids. Most of us will be sad to see it go, but if it can be replaced with an option that provides significant utility or personal dps possiblities, i think you will see a drastic change in sentiment amongst the summoners on these boards.

Our concern is that while some of the changes proposed on test do show promise, in their current versions, they will not make up for the loss of Focused Minion. In your own words you are content with summoner's power on live. However we will need to receive some sort additional modification to make up for its loss.

The easiest approach would be to just create some sort of benefit (dps or utlitity) to make up for Focused Minion.

Another approach which requires a little more work on your part would be to address some very longstanding and evident flaws within the class before progessing onto AA modications. 1) Our dumbfire pets are entirely useless. If they were changed to a direct damage spell that was worthy of casting, or possibly a eaiser implementation would be if they were some sort of useful utility, not only would you be fixing a key class flaw, it would open up new AA enhancement possiblities. Effectively this kills two birds with one stone. The same can be said for summoner pet stances. While the defensive pet stance does show some promise (merely for soloing summoners) the offensive stance has no purpose whatsoever. If these could be altered so they would be useful whether soloing, grouping, raiding, this would be a great acheivement. Everytime i look at these spells on my hotbar i shake my head at the fact that the we have these class defining abilities that serve no purpose. First make these useful, then build upon enhancing them with our AAs.

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Old 08-02-2011, 07:34 PM   #62
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Nrgy wrote:

  • Pet Threat Modifiers:
    • Magic leash … remains too weak to make any different in Hate
    • Minion’s Attention … Proc which now will take the place of all other Hate mods unless it has a poor proc rate
    • Symbiosis … Used in cases of extreme summoner hate mismanagement due tolower  DPS and no longer required due to the lact of SDA
    • Enhanced Symbiosis … Too costly in AA for the return @ 1% per rank
    • Preceptor’s Command … (Removed)

Perceptor's Command was merged into magic leash as one AA, for both mage (and scout, heh) dehate, and fighter +hate.  It's still useful for some playstyles for the guaranteed +1 position hate w/ full points.

And with the choice of using symbiosis for hate transfer from mage pet to the summoner, the -24 position does need to be for us not for pet.

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Old 08-02-2011, 07:42 PM   #63
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Rockefeller wrote:

 1) Our dumbfire pets are entirely useless. If they were changed to a direct damage spell that was worthy of casting, or possibly a eaiser implementation would be if they were some sort of useful utility, not only would you be fixing a key class flaw, it would open up new AA enhancement possiblities. Effectively this kills two birds with one stone. The same can be said for summoner pet stances. While the defensive pet stance does show some promise (merely for soloing summoners) the offensive stance has no purpose whatsoever. If these could be altered so they would be useful whether soloing, grouping, raiding, this would be a great acheivement. Everytime i look at these spells on my hotbar i shake my head at the fact that the we have these class defining abilities that serve no purpose. First make these useful, then build upon enhancing them with our AAs.

Dumbfires combined with Arcane Bewilderment is single-handedly the most powerful tool for agro management a soloing summoner curently has.  Calling dumbfires entirely useless is only true for certain playstyles, which summoners shouldn't be pidgeon holed into.  I would like to see the return of shared states with temporary pets, which was temporarily on the DOV beta.

Additionally, while the stances were useless on conjurors, they always had nice proc benifits for necromancers.

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Old 08-02-2011, 08:05 PM   #64
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[email protected] wrote:

Dumbfires combined with Arcane Bewilderment is single-handedly the most powerful tool for agro management a soloing summoner curently has.  Calling dumbfires entirely useless is only true for certain playstyles, which summoners shouldn't be pidgeon holed into.  I would like to see the return of shared states with temporary pets, which was temporarily on the DOV beta.

That's all great, i dont want to discriminate against any one's particular play style but this is a MMOrpg. Personally I would rather see this changed to benefit the other 2/3rds+ people who understand this and group and raid in addition to soloing. However, you do bring up some good points.

Additionally, while the stances were useless on conjurors, they always had nice proc benifits for necromancers.

I don't understand your argument. You admit Conj's benefit none at all and you'd rather have some minuscule proc then have the stances changed to offer real benefit to your pet?

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Old 08-02-2011, 09:01 PM   #65
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So now scouts and fighters have there auto attacks able to hit upwards to 8 times every 3-6 seconds. wizards, warlocks, illys all get sda. Were so [Removed for Content] i probly will lose my raid spot to lack of utility/dps. Thanks SOE you just trashed the one class i do like!!!! there has been plenty of ideas thown out there to help the class that you guys dont even listen too!!!!!

Make our dumb fire pets WORK that has been an issue for a very very very long time going on 5 years now i think. as soon as i cast them there dead to a repost ae auto attack or the mob just LOOKS AT THEM!!!

y do we need reanamate we have DS that gives us one pet!! pet power would be better bc with out it mage pet is drained in mins tops theres no spell for us to give them power unless the enchanter desides to target our pet and feed it to them

We have enchanters for power y does the summoners have to have a grp power buff?? Stupid

we no longer need the dehates unless the tanks are to stupid to cast a taunt LULZ!!! our dps is gone to crap now..

the spells that we cast for out pets interupt our pets casting making them cancle our pets 50 k nuke for 2k another stupid idea

let etox have SDA on it like focus casting or time warp theres an idea

insted of the agi endline of basic pot for the pets how about giving Mage sda Scout flury and Tank Strikethough or taunt proc on auto attack like the sk there suppose to be!!!

we have giving you all good ideas that will not leave us op and still give us a fighting chance to get a raid spot

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Old 08-02-2011, 11:09 PM   #66
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Yanno, I just started a little Conjy, and after reading all of this I'm heavily considering not furthering it.  In fact, I'm close to deletion.

I'd not raid with her, it was just to play one because I'd never have in my years of playing EQ2.

I'd not have Focused Minion until L81 anyhow, but from what I'm reading it's a huge hit to dps.  Luckily, the folks I'd run her with don't care about dps as much as is the mob dead.

The largest thing that has me twitching, I'll admit, is the trees.  Right now I have points in the Conjy tree, I haven't touched the Summoner tree yet and probably won't until I get the Conjy tree filled as I'd like.  But knowing this is coming down the pipe, I'm becoming loathe to continue on her.  I have a choice: do I get her to L50 fast so when the changes come through she won't lose much or do I just continue in the level locking and taking my time thru content?

I'd rather take my time, but I really do not like the idea of being hindered.  I tend to solo a lot.

Anyhow, I just wanted to say something from the pov of someone new to the Summoner class who really isn't sure whether or not to continue to play the class given the changes.

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Old 08-03-2011, 03:27 AM   #67
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Xelgad...

...

...

I don't know what to say.

Nerfed cause of DoTs scaling with SDA?

That's the same update you gave Warlocks 10 Seconds of 100% SDA for all their DoTs and Nukes.  The same update you made the Wizard Mythical even better on their spells with DoT components.

You guys need to get off ur toosh and fix the offensive stances.  It's simply inexcusable that you come here trying to save face by giving a weak excuse like that for something so blatantly inexcusable.

Nothing was stopping you guys form giving 16% Flurry for Scout, 12.8% SDA for Mage Pet, and whatever you felt for the tank pet in the same AA.  Just like you did with the pet group buffs in the revamp.

The only reason why the SDA on the mage pet seemed SO great compared to what other pets get is cause Unflinching Servant is useless except on MOBs that drain mana and you guys are lazy and failed year after year to fix the scout pet...  Or Offensive Stances...  And you're still not doing anything about those two GLARING issues.

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Old 08-03-2011, 04:58 AM   #68
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

That's the same update you gave Warlocks 10 Seconds of 100% SDA for all their DoTs and Nukes.  The same update you made the Wizard Mythical even better on their spells with DoT components.

You guys need to get off ur toosh and fix the offensive stances.  It's simply inexcusable that you come here trying to save face by giving a weak excuse like that for something so blatantly inexcusable.

Nothing was stopping you guys form giving 16% Flurry for Scout, 12.8% SDA for Mage Pet, and whatever you felt for the tank pet in the same AA.  Just like you did with the pet group buffs in the revamp.

Yeah well... Wizards had to do their mythical quests which other classes just get with AA. Great. Can i have other classes Mythical features as AAs (exclusively) as well ?

Or like, say, a Trakanons Gaze Effect, which we farmed a year till it dropped ONCE, as AA ? (24 Hate Positions which the Conjis get "for free" now).

The Pet is the thing which does most of the Damage on a Conji (at least its what i get told). If you get SDA on the Mage Pet "for free" (and i consider some AA as "free"), can i have 5% SDA also "for free" -> to specc with AA ?

I also would do a quest to update the Mythical for that.

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Old 08-03-2011, 07:18 AM   #69
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theriatis wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

That's the same update you gave Warlocks 10 Seconds of 100% SDA for all their DoTs and Nukes.  The same update you made the Wizard Mythical even better on their spells with DoT components.

You guys need to get off ur toosh and fix the offensive stances.  It's simply inexcusable that you come here trying to save face by giving a weak excuse like that for something so blatantly inexcusable.

Nothing was stopping you guys form giving 16% Flurry for Scout, 12.8% SDA for Mage Pet, and whatever you felt for the tank pet in the same AA.  Just like you did with the pet group buffs in the revamp.

Yeah well... Wizards had to do their mythical quests which other classes just get with AA. Great. Can i have other classes Mythical features as AAs (exclusively) as well ?

Or like, say, a Trakanons Gaze Effect, which we farmed a year till it dropped ONCE, as AA ? (24 Hate Positions which the Conjis get "for free" now).

The Pet is the thing which does most of the Damage on a Conji (at least its what i get told). If you get SDA on the Mage Pet "for free" (and i consider some AA as "free"), can i have 5% SDA also "for free" -> to specc with AA ?

I also would do a quest to update the Mythical for that.

theriatis.

I'm not sure why I'm even going to entertain this nonsensical post.

8 AAs it not free.  Illies get 5% SDA on their TC that you get truly "for free" when you're in group with them.  You can get SDA from jewelry set bonuses and Adornments "for free."

The Wizard Mythical SDA is more "free" than the mage pet SDA seeing as how you get it in buff form and it doesn't even have a concentration cost.  It's 2011.  Epics and getting Mythical buffs aren't hard to get anymore.  Move on.  GU60 came out recently, and the dev in this thread is using DoT SDA mechanics as a reason for removing the mage pet SDA when there are classes that benefit just as much as the mage pet did from it.  Nevermind they put in more than one 100% SDA skills in the game but didn't turn around and nerf things like Wizard Mythical or DoT damage to compensate.

It's a cop-out.  And I was pointing it out.  You don't have to get butt-hurt cause I mentioned that mythical.  It's too obvious an example to pass up.

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Old 08-03-2011, 07:42 AM   #70
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Consider this...

Fixed the Ooze pet and Hydro pets for the summoners. I suggest removing the ooze crawler completely and allow any pet to cast its debuff ability giving necros a reason to be in raid right there. The hydro pet should be removed completely and allow any pet to cast its AE blocker and give a group ward/spell stoneskin. Note that the group ward/spell stoneskin will be a group buff while the AE blocker will be a cast spell with a duration of 1min and recast of  30 secs (aborsbing 2x AE hit) while the necro pet will cast the debuff once every 1min as the recast will be 1min and the duration the spell will be 1min 30 secs. Another fix would be just letting these pets be cast side by side with our main pets allowing us to have two pets..one for utility and another for dps or tankage ( i think beastlords are gonna have 2x warders at the same time anyway).

 Fix Undead Horde by allowing undead horde to be completely immune to AEs or letting bloodpact prevent our pets from being hit by AEs. Also make the pets scale with our stats. Or give us a Plane Shift and call it Dark Transformation!

Fix dumbfire pets!! allow them to scale with our stats and let them be immune to AEs.

and last but not least...fix the [Removed for Content] scout pet and tank pets stupidness! they do not cast their abilities often! this is why our tank pets cant keep aggro! we dont need aggro management AAs! our scout pet is not used because their ability to cast thier spells is just not there! Fix this and the scout pet will be used for single target fights! (remove the group buffs from scout pets and make teamwork provide 10% MA/flurry and 10% potency or 5% SDA while using either the scout or mage pets).

Another good fix is to allow our mage auto attack stats scale with our scout and tank pets and make our mage pet spell auto attack to off set the lost of 12.8% SDA ( tank pets need to also scale with our stam).

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Old 08-03-2011, 10:20 AM   #71
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Make Dumbfire pets AE immune, let them inherit stats from the summoner and THEN you might have a place to start talking about removing our pet SDA.

Doing one or the other won't cut it.  If the pets aren't AE immune, they are useless.  If the pets don't inherit our stats, they are useless.  It needs to be both, and it might begin to offset the loss from Focused Minion.

Oh, and it will further make our class "different" than some other classes.

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Old 08-03-2011, 10:48 AM   #72
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So Xelgad could you let us know if its possible? please let our temp pets be aoe immune (or let our bloodpact cover them when thier up either or) and let them share our stats. With the loss of the SDA I dont think this is op in anyway, please let us know your thoughts.

And for 21 total aa for the Ooze and the Hydro please let us summon them alongside our primary pet, that is a ton off aa for a pet that only does one thing (ooze debuffs) and a few things if its the hydro none of which are anywhere near good enough to justify giving up our primary pets. Let us know if your even consdiering htis, I mean come on mate its 21 aa, have you looked at what they do? you cant tell us with the cost of 21 aa and what they do it justifys losing our primary pet.

These two changes for us would go a long way imo, the debuff is nice on the ooze and for me id spend the aa for him if he was alongside my priamry pet, it would also give us more desireable utility. Same for the hydro. Temp pets being aoe immune in some way when up and sharing our stats would help offeset the dps loss of sda and would give us a more unqie feeling, we are summoners after all, why cant we have pets that do something other then die when summoned?

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Old 08-03-2011, 10:50 AM   #73
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I spent several hours on Test. I messed with the new AA's, I parsed on dummies (group, heroic, and epic), overland content trash and named, and a few ^^^ heroics. Overall I have seen my DPS very consistent to where it was on Live. Most of my parses have actually increased 2-3%.  The Thueurgist's Detonation AA is a nice bump in DPS, especially when you're fighting grouped mobs. You can also macro Shadow Step into any other spell since it’s a free instant cast. Normally aggro isn't that big an issue during raids for a necro, but for instance runs it's been tough since shared stats were introduced. In my experience just about any instance I run I'm resummoning my pet multiple times per run due to it grabbing aggro and dying. So the detaunts will definitely help with this, as well as Reanimate (as long as it reanimates a "master" pet) for when he does die. Also take a look at how much they've done to add aggro transfer and hate to our tank pet, how many times have we heard "the tank pet sucks because he can't hold aggro, fix it!"? Yeah I know we are only supposed to use our mage pet, but for the more difficult soloing the tank pet is a must.I've heard necros complain for years about "we have no raid desirability" because we don't bring anything to a group or raid. Well now they've given us an AA line that brings something more than just our DPS and rezzes to the raid. So far on this thread I’ve seen more people pick out ONE thing we lost and do nothing but hone in on it, while mostly ignoring what they've actually done to help fix the class. Enough already about losing the SDA for pets, get on to Test run some parses like I did and you'll see it's not doomsday after all...

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Old 08-03-2011, 11:07 AM   #74
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I have been on test on my necro and have been parsing against several dummies from normal to heroic to the epics and went out and fought names all over Velious. My dps went down, not by tons, and I never have said tons, but via what I see from Xelgad the intent wasn’t to nerf us or increase our dps but to fix our utility. If that’s the case then yes we need a small boost imo to get back to where we are on live.Mind you from my findings the longer the fight goes on the more stable I get, however against epic dummies (I raid on my necro I care about long fights mostly) I did see my dps lower.Letting Teamwork grant 5 sda isn’t asking to be op and it’s a group buff, so it prevents us from getting a dps increase over other mages since they will receive the same benefit of sda. I really want to know what Xelgad feels about that one suggestion. As far as what we now bring that’s the point, I am sorry but at endgame 2.4 more pot for the raid isn’t squat, and neither is 10% power reduction group wide. I’d rather see the power thing be a power proc based off us dpsing to proc it feeding our grp some power. That would allow it to somewhat give power after mana drains.Let’s not forget to get the above mentioned you have to spend 18 aa total, that’s a huge amount of aa for a small benefit. Make those two choices worth it and then we can talk about where our dps is at. Fixing our Temps pets does more than just give us some dps back, it also fixes a problem we have had for years, two birds with one stone kind of deal. I don’t know about you but I WANT to cast my temp pets, I really do, I love being a summoner, but for me to cast them they have to do something other than lower my parse.And lastly mate it seems you are focusing on the rest of the community complaining about the loss of sda, but I see tons of us asking about other things including our ooze/hydro pet. I can accept our sda is gone, if our utility granted makes up for it and right now, no it does not. I can also accept it if they make our temp pets useful, make our ooze/hydro castable alongside our primary pet (I mean come on its 21 aa for the thing) and do something about our O stance. When in O stance, make this a aa option if you must why can’t it grant small amount of flurry for scout, sda for mage, or multi for tank?Above all else Xelgad please give us AA ways to make our temp pets useful, O stance useful, and just modify the ooze/hydro to be until canceled alongside our primary pet. I don’t care if costs aa, I don’t care if it costs a substantial amount of aa, just give us choices and options.

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Old 08-03-2011, 11:10 AM   #75
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[email protected] wrote:

So Xelgad could you let us know if its possible? please let our temp pets be aoe immune (or let our bloodpact cover them when thier up either or) and let them share our stats. With the loss of the SDA I dont think this is op in anyway, please let us know your thoughts.

Conjurers don't get bloodpact so they would get no benefit from bloodpact covering dumbfire pets. They need to just make all temporary pets (warden [tree], mystic [attendant], summoner [dumbfires], warlock [netherlord], etc) AoE immune and share stats. Or make dumbfire damage pets dots and make all others AoE immune and share stats. It should be consistent across the board for all temporary abilities. Imagine if all other classes temp abilities could be randomly "dispelled"; which in essence is what happens to all classes that use dumbfire pets.  The screaming would be unreal.

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Old 08-03-2011, 11:20 AM   #76
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Every necro I have ever spoken with have all agreed your Bubble should be equal to our bloodpact, if your willing to take a 10% health loss for it like we do then I would hope Xelgad would change this for you guys

You have to spend the same amount of aa to get yours, I dont have any problem with that however if it isnt going to be changed then yes I agree the temp pets themsleves should be aoe immune. Sorry about that, I dont want anything for necros that our conjy kin cant get, we are summoners we should both work together to get much needed changes to our classes imo. And yes extend the sahred stats to any one with a temp pet, make the aoe immune as well, I dont see a problem with that personally.

To be clear I mention bloodpact and a fixed bubble because we are spending 21 aa total to chose them, for 21 aa it should protect the temp pets, I wont get into other classes, I am just trying to get some things changed for the summoners as is everyone else in this thread for the most part. I am not sure why they arent aoe immune to begin with I know in Velious Beta with our shared stats it was felt our damage was to much however with the loss of sda I dont think this is the case anymore, and they could always lower the damage output of the abilties of the temp pets if they still feel they would cuase to much damage.

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Old 08-03-2011, 12:11 PM   #77
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Conjurors can't take a health cost like that because we have no means to replace health as Necros do.

We already spend significantly more time "caring" for our pet than Necros do.  I say that not as a complaint but as a simple statement of fact.  We are more dependant on our pet, since many of the damage spells we cast are actually channeled through our pet.

And that's fine, so long as we have some tools to deal with the limitations that imposes.  Right now, we do lack some tools in certain situations, and this update further removes one of them (Animist Bond).

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Old 08-03-2011, 12:34 PM   #78
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I am not in any way agiasnt the temp pets being aoe immune as is. Making all temp pets immune to aoes across the board is the way to go it seems. And I agree with you, they have to share our stats or its pointless.

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Old 08-03-2011, 12:35 PM   #79
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Banditman wrote:

Conjurors can't take a health cost like that because we have no means to replace health as Necros do.

We already spend significantly more time "caring" for our pet than Necros do.  I say that not as a complaint but as a simple statement of fact.  We are more dependant on our pet, since many of the damage spells we cast are actually channeled through our pet.

And that's fine, so long as we have some tools to deal with the limitations that imposes.  Right now, we do lack some tools in certain situations, and this update further removes one of them (Animist Bond).

Personally I think Bloodpact and Bubble are fine the way they are. It's a big deal for your "Main" pet to have AoE immunity and as such, the amount of AA needed to acquire bloodpact and bubble are warranted. The fact that Conjurers have to have their pet near them and stop attacking (I think... I play a necro) to gain this AoE immunity is balanced by the fact that it doesn't have a recurrent health cost. However, it simply would not be feasible for Bubble to effect dumbfire pets since they are not going to be near the conjurer most of the time and they obviously attack. If it stays as is, bubble couldn't cover dumbfires and if you change bubble to mimic necromancers bloodpact, it becomes a huge issue since, as stated before, the health loss would effect conjurers too much since they don't have lifetaps.

I just think that ALL classes temp pets and dumbfire pets should be automatically AoE immune and share stats so they can actually get the full end game benefit from casting the spell(s). I don't care how they work the mechanics to cause that to happen... it just needs to happen.

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Old 08-03-2011, 12:43 PM   #80
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MackGee wrote:

I spent several hours on Test. I messed with the new AA's, I parsed on dummies (group, heroic, and epic), overland content trash and named, and a few ^^^ heroics. Overall I have seen my DPS very consistent to where it was on Live. Most of my parses have actually increased 2-3%.  The Thueurgist's Detonation AA is a nice bump in DPS, especially when you're fighting grouped mobs. You can also macro Shadow Step into any other spell since it’s a free instant cast. 

Rather than making blind statements, can you post parses to prove this? I have found this to be quite the contrary.Normally aggro isn't that big an issue during raids for a necro, but for instance runs it's been tough since shared stats were introduced. In my experience just about any instance I run I'm resummoning my pet multiple times per run due to it grabbing aggro and dying. So the detaunts will definitely help with this, as well as Reanimate (as long as it reanimates a "master" pet) for when he does die. 

The reality is we dont need a whole AA line to manage aggro. For one, a  good summoner can manage their own aggro. The tank pet sucks at holding aggro because it is flawed. The best way to correct this is thru fixing the pet stances. In addition, they could throw in a couple unique aggro management AAs but we certainly dont need a whole line devoted to aggro.

Also take a look at how much they've done to add aggro transfer and hate to our tank pet, how many times have we heard "the tank pet sucks because he can't hold aggro, fix it!"? Yeah I know we are only supposed to use our mage pet, but for the more difficult soloing the tank pet is a must.

See above ...I've heard necros complain for years about "we have no raid desirability" because we don't bring anything to a group or raid. Well now they've given us an AA line that brings something more than just our DPS and rezzes to the raid.

No one is saying we wouldnt desire more ulility, the problem is the utlitity they are giving us is crap compared to what we are giving up. What are we getting to provide our group/raid? Mana reduction and additional potency. Have you read anything people have posted? Mana reduction is a joke, and a ity bity more potency when everyone is running around with 100 plus already?

So far on this thread I’ve seen more people pick out ONE thing we lost and do nothing but hone in on it, while mostly ignoring what they've actually done to help fix the class. Enough already about losing the SDA for pets, get on to Test run some parses like I did and you'll see it's not doomsday after all...

Of course people are upset. This is a net loss and you just cant see it. Again. Dont just make statements. Post parses. i want to see them.

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Old 08-03-2011, 01:51 PM   #81
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So what you are saying basically is that you will take our opinions into account other than the only two that every person is screaming about? Good call.....

This game is nothing more than DPS at the moment with unbalanced mechanics and what-not. The only thing that is consistent is the fact that conj,wiz,nec,lock,assy,rng are top DPS classes when gear is consistent. Why take away a primary "DPS" aa and replace it with a "bull" utility increase? Which by the way... you cant spec down the STR line for the new decent AOE and still get 10%hp, 5 pot, and the increase in the mage pet casting and reuse.... So... I will probably say screw your new 5% POS AA. More nerf...thanks!

If you have this forum....use it. We play the class on live...do you? We pay you $15 a month......and whatever else you rip from us in marketplace. Work for us....

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Old 08-03-2011, 02:04 PM   #82
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Why not kill two birds with one stone, and move at least part of the lost DA to our currently useless offensive stance?  As far as I recall, stances are already pet-specific, so it wouldn't affect this new plan of making AAs pet-agnostic.  Make it as low as 2% if you want.  And if it's still not properly balanced, a new AA that improves our pet stances could compensate.

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Old 08-03-2011, 02:33 PM   #83
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urgthock wrote:

Personally I think Bloodpact and Bubble are fine the way they are. It's a big deal for your "Main" pet to have AoE immunity and as such, the amount of AA needed to acquire bloodpact and bubble are warranted. The fact that Conjurers have to have their pet near them and stop attacking (I think... I play a necro) to gain this AoE immunity is balanced by the fact that it doesn't have a recurrent health cost. However, it simply would not be feasible for Bubble to effect dumbfire pets since they are not going to be near the conjurer most of the time and they obviously attack. If it stays as is, bubble couldn't cover dumbfires and if you change bubble to mimic necromancers bloodpact, it becomes a huge issue since, as stated before, the health loss would effect conjurers too much since they don't have lifetaps.

I just think that ALL classes temp pets and dumbfire pets should be automatically AoE immune and share stats so they can actually get the full end game benefit from casting the spell(s). I don't care how they work the mechanics to cause that to happen... it just needs to happen.

If it were only that simple.

Bubble is basically a buff that radiates from the Conjuror, and pulses every 2.5 seconds.  If the pet has made no attacks since the last pulse of Bubble, the immunity buff gets applied to the pet.  If he has made attacks, then no buff.  So, if my pet finishes an attack, for instance, .1 seconds after the last pulse, he would then have to wait 4.9 seconds for the buff to apply.

You have no way to tell when the pulses are happening, unless your pet is there, not attacking.  Then you can see it.  You can't tell easily when it's on, when it's off and you can't do anything about it.  It's just not a good mechanic for AE immunity.

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Old 08-03-2011, 05:40 PM   #84
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Rockefeller wrote:

MackGee wrote:

I spent several hours on Test. I messed with the new AA's, I parsed on dummies (group, heroic, and epic), overland content trash and named, and a few ^^^ heroics. Overall I have seen my DPS very consistent to where it was on Live. Most of my parses have actually increased 2-3%.  The Thueurgist's Detonation AA is a nice bump in DPS, especially when you're fighting grouped mobs. You can also macro Shadow Step into any other spell since it’s a free instant cast. 

Rather than making blind statements, can you post parses to prove this? I have found this to be quite the contrary.

  • It's not a blind statement if I say I'm seeing a 2-3% increase then it's because I am.  A quick example is 50-52K on Epic dummy on Live, and 53-55K on Test.

Normally aggro isn't that big an issue during raids for a necro, but for instance runs it's been tough since shared stats were introduced. In my experience just about any instance I run I'm resummoning my pet multiple times per run due to it grabbing aggro and dying. So the detaunts will definitely help with this, as well as Reanimate (as long as it reanimates a "master" pet) for when he does die. 

The reality is we dont need a whole AA line to manage aggro. For one, a  good summoner can manage their own aggro. The tank pet [Removed for Content] at holding aggro because it is flawed. The best way to correct this is thru fixing the pet stances. In addition, they could throw in a couple unique aggro management AAs but we certainly dont need a whole line devoted to aggro.

  • We had VERY little aggro management before these changes, the way we would "manage" aggro is either back off our pet or slow down on our casting.  By doing this our DPS would suffer.  So now we have some tools to help us manage our pets and our aggro without slowing down our DPS.  As far as the tank pet is concerned these changes also provide us ways to give him more aggro, so he can hold mobs where that's always been a challenge in the past.

Also take a look at how much they've done to add aggro transfer and hate to our tank pet, how many times have we heard "the tank pet [Removed for Content] because he can't hold aggro, fix it!"? Yeah I know we are only supposed to use our mage pet, but for the more difficult soloing the tank pet is a must.

See above ...

  • See above ...
I've heard necros complain for years about "we have no raid desirability" because we don't bring anything to a group or raid. Well now they've given us an AA line that brings something more than just our DPS and rezzes to the raid.

No one is saying we wouldnt desire more ulility, the problem is the utlitity they are giving us is [Removed for Content] compared to what we are giving up. What are we getting to provide our group/raid? Mana reduction and additional potency. Have you read anything people have posted? Mana reduction is a joke, and a ity bity more potency when everyone is running around with 100 plus already?

  • Again I don't see a fault in what we're giving up because my parses show no loss in DPS.  I doubt I'll spec into this line either, I agree with you the pot and power reduction aren't enough to justify spending the AA to get it, I can see the points better spent in the other four lines.

So far on this thread I’ve seen more people pick out ONE thing we lost and do nothing but hone in on it, while mostly ignoring what they've actually done to help fix the class. Enough already about losing the SDA for pets, get on to Test run some parses like I did and you'll see it's not doomsday after all...

Of course people are upset. This is a net loss and you just cant see it. Again. Dont just make statements. Post parses. i want to see them.

  • I really don't think it's necessary for me to put a screen cap of a parse up here, in fact it's more work than I wish to do, I made the tests myself for myown benefit, and if I had seen a drop in DPS then I would be shouting "nerf" to the devs just as much as you.  I've played my necro since launch, and I welcome the attention we are finally getting to our AA's.

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Old 08-03-2011, 06:50 PM   #85
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MackGee wrote:

Rockefeller wrote:

MackGee wrote:

I spent several hours on Test. I messed with the new AA's, I parsed on dummies (group, heroic, and epic), overland content trash and named, and a few ^^^ heroics. Overall I have seen my DPS very consistent to where it was on Live. Most of my parses have actually increased 2-3%.  The Thueurgist's Detonation AA is a nice bump in DPS, especially when you're fighting grouped mobs. You can also macro Shadow Step into any other spell since it’s a free instant cast. 

Rather than making blind statements, can you post parses to prove this? I have found this to be quite the contrary.

  • It's not a blind statement if I say I'm seeing a 2-3% increase then it's because I am.  A quick example is 50-52K on Epic dummy on Live, and 53-55K on Test.

Normally aggro isn't that big an issue during raids for a necro, but for instance runs it's been tough since shared stats were introduced. In my experience just about any instance I run I'm resummoning my pet multiple times per run due to it grabbing aggro and dying. So the detaunts will definitely help with this, as well as Reanimate (as long as it reanimates a "master" pet) for when he does die. 

The reality is we dont need a whole AA line to manage aggro. For one, a  good summoner can manage their own aggro. The tank pet [Removed for Content] at holding aggro because it is flawed. The best way to correct this is thru fixing the pet stances. In addition, they could throw in a couple unique aggro management AAs but we certainly dont need a whole line devoted to aggro.

  • We had VERY little aggro management before these changes, the way we would "manage" aggro is either back off our pet or slow down on our casting.  By doing this our DPS would suffer.  So now we have some tools to help us manage our pets and our aggro without slowing down our DPS.  As far as the tank pet is concerned these changes also provide us ways to give him more aggro, so he can hold mobs where that's always been a challenge in the past.

Also take a look at how much they've done to add aggro transfer and hate to our tank pet, how many times have we heard "the tank pet [Removed for Content] because he can't hold aggro, fix it!"? Yeah I know we are only supposed to use our mage pet, but for the more difficult soloing the tank pet is a must.

See above ...

  • See above ...
I've heard necros complain for years about "we have no raid desirability" because we don't bring anything to a group or raid. Well now they've given us an AA line that brings something more than just our DPS and rezzes to the raid.

No one is saying we wouldnt desire more ulility, the problem is the utlitity they are giving us is [Removed for Content] compared to what we are giving up. What are we getting to provide our group/raid? Mana reduction and additional potency. Have you read anything people have posted? Mana reduction is a joke, and a ity bity more potency when everyone is running around with 100 plus already?

  • Again I don't see a fault in what we're giving up because my parses show no loss in DPS.  I doubt I'll spec into this line either, I agree with you the pot and power reduction aren't enough to justify spending the AA to get it, I can see the points better spent in the other four lines.

So far on this thread I’ve seen more people pick out ONE thing we lost and do nothing but hone in on it, while mostly ignoring what they've actually done to help fix the class. Enough already about losing the SDA for pets, get on to Test run some parses like I did and you'll see it's not doomsday after all...

Of course people are upset. This is a net loss and you just cant see it. Again. Dont just make statements. Post parses. i want to see them.

  • I really don't think it's necessary for me to put a screen cap of a parse up here, in fact it's more work than I wish to do, I made the tests myself for myown benefit, and if I had seen a drop in DPS then I would be shouting "nerf" to the devs just as much as you.  I've played my necro since launch, and I welcome the attention we are finally getting to our AA's.

No parse no proof.

Oh I’m sorry your DPS is suffering because of a lack or deaggro options. HOW IS THIS different for any other DPS class? Even if those classes have deaggro abilities, they either 1) have to stop casting until the tank gets hate back or 2) cast their deaggro abilities. NEWFLASH: either option means they are not DPSing and their parse is suffering. Managing threat is one of the nuances that DPS classes have always had to deal with. It’s always come easier to summoners because or total hate is split with our pet but that doesn’t mean we are immune to it. Get use to it!

To boot you’re a Necro, either you are far over geared with the players you are playing with, or your tanks are HORRID! You certainly dont require any major form of deaggro and as summoners we certainly don’t require an entire AA line devoted to this.

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Old 08-03-2011, 10:42 PM   #86
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I doubt anyone is reading this but:

1.  If you need to nerf SDA, okay, but don't take it away entirely, without it pet's DPS will tank horribly.  Reduce it to 8 or 10%, okay, fine...throw it on the offensive stance, too...this makes sense as it'd slightly nerf soulburn DPS, too...would be fair....it'd give a reason to use it.

2.  If reanimate summons an apprentice level pet it's pointless.  If coding a fix is too hard just make it make the next pet spell instant cast, so it requires two clicks instead of one.  Whatever, that'd be fine.

3.  Pet HP NEEDS TO SCALE.  Not a ton, no one is asking for a 70k hp pet.  But it needs to scale, and so does its resists.  I don't care if you make it so the resists don't scale as much in pvp, or the health doesn't scale as much in pvp, or whatever, but the way content currently works, pet HP NEEDS TO SCALE.  I'm sure this will eventually happen when beastlords come out though, so there is hope!

Oh, and you know, IS THERE ANY FIX FOR THE TANK AND SCOUT PET NOT USING THEIR ABILITIES...LIKE, AT ALL???

Hafta laugh at the SDA effects the scout pet thing...uhmm...well....it would, if the scout pet used it's abilities.  It doens't, or almost never does.  Same with tank pet.

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Old 08-04-2011, 01:04 AM   #87
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Agree.  Unless the Agro stuff is accompanied by mechanics changes the Necro Tank pet will still be terrible, cause it barely ever casts its taunts.  14 minute dummy fight and it cast them 5 and 7 times respectively.  14 minutes is enough time for it to cast them 84 and 118 times if they are cast the minute they come up.

It's laughable that a mechanic that basically defines more than 2 classes in the game is completely broken.

And they took years to fix Summoner tree.

Maybe pet AI/mechanics fixes coming in 2015?

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Old 08-04-2011, 04:30 AM   #88
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Please Please dont take the spell DA from focused minion  away .

thats my only gripe. 

the rest looks ok  though i like the pet AOE 

but you gotta leave the spell DA as it is please. 

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Old 08-04-2011, 06:43 AM   #89
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Ok, here is an innovative fix for loss of pet SDA.

Just give the pet +30 % potency ... same thing Sony did for Warlocks with the mythical.  Wizards got SDA, Warlocks got +30% potency.  Ok sure you lost a theoretical double damage spell 1 in 8 casts.  You gain ( your pet gains ) +30% damage to all attacks.  Granted Sony is going to say thats way too much, but its what they did for wizards and warlocks.

Recnam 90/300

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Old 08-04-2011, 08:17 AM   #90
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Please Please dont take the spell DA from focused minion  away .

thats my only gripe. 

We will really miss the SDA of of pet. Please do not remove it

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