any dirges tired of it?

Hartw · 11-10-2006, 01:28 PM

just starting out here, Any dirges tired of being dirges, burnt out, fed up, and if you could change classes what would you be?

Jal · 11-10-2006, 01:39 PM

Honestly i enjoy my dirge, i have an alt i can switch to for solo/high dps on raids so playing my dirge in raids as a helper and debuffer is a really nice change. If you love helping your group our or making a difference in raids without needing to be top of the parse then you should enjoy your dirge.

Whysprr_Wyrd · 11-10-2006, 04:43 PM

Just as a methodological comment, dirges who're burned out on the class will be less likely to hang out here than those who enjoy it.

Whysp

SorrySonOfA · 11-10-2006, 05:35 PM

When they post up parses in Raids, I generally flinch and don't look. I also hate that when I think I'm really working in some high damage specials in a raid and I rarely see any orange numbers flying over the mobs head (and the ones that do are so small compared to other's hits).

But otherwise no. I like the things I can do as a dirge. I know I'm making a huge differance just by doing the things I do, and I can't think of another class I'd rather play. I've got many alts, and enjoy most all of them, but if I'm serious about doing something, the dirge is who comes out.

spa · 11-10-2006, 07:13 PM

Dirge and Guard/Zerker are the only classes i like playing. A reason i love playing the Dirge is because of its multi-taskability that a skilled-experianced Dirge can utilise - particuarly at raids. Its not a hard class to play, the hardest thing about it is striving to be faster with using the tools-abilities of the class.

I love the Dirge that much, that i couldnt think of any other class i want to be for my Fae alt when EoF comes out, so im going to make a Fae Dirge! mainly to experiance the newbie content, plus the Fae traits just pwn all over my Halfling Dirge -- which i love alot also lol. I considered being a Fae Troubador, but theres nothing challenging about that class, they do worse DPS than the Dirge and got nothing else to do other than sit there with auto-attack on and fire up their Mage group buff ability.

Im not totally burnt out, despite i was 5th Inquisiter on server to lvl50 (while also played a Ranger to lvl32ish), changed my main to Dirge then became server 10th Dirge to 50, 1st to 60, 3rd to 70. In all that time i was also leveling my Guardian alt.

All 3 toons have been lvl70 aa50 for quite a while now.

All done Prissy1 aswell as Guardian completed Claymore, Dirge has done all 3.

My Dirge is Fabled out and all but two spells missing for full master spell line. Inq and Guard are halfway there in comparison.

My Inq had done all of the pre-DoF access and heritage quests within the first 4 months of EQ2 release (when there was next to none, very little web info, such as Ogaming).

Message Edited by spark on 11-10-2006 06:29 AM

josh.kaz · 11-10-2006, 08:54 PM

Burnt out.. not a question.. Love her to death.. lol frustrated.. at times, yes. On PvP I do fairly well in Solo PvP but nothing like some other classes. I know I am not gonna top the parse or even come close to that.. LoL but I help others do so, and they adore me for it. Thats where I get satisfaction. Overall I LOVE LOVE LOVE my Dirge and wouldn't want to play another in Rading situations.

DarkVillian · 11-10-2006, 09:01 PM

Yeah I love my Dirge, main was a zerker on PVP server for a while, then came to a care bear server to raid. Ummm, fully mastered I never really get resisted, love the utility, and enjoy feeling like your rezzes, debuffs, or emergency heal can save a raid from a wipe. We can parse high in the right setup, but overall are a utility that can greatly impact a raid...I do have to admit that its nice to see yourself in the parse, but even better when you see a raid as a success and you were a part of it :smileyvery-happy:

Rijacki · 11-10-2006, 10:56 PM

I like the class, I really do, enough to consider having a fae dirge just for -fun-. I hate parsers and those who make the comments of "it always helps to post that to shake people up and get them performing". Those are least likely to look at -why- there are higher numbers for the whole group but focus on the performance of each person. Thus, the parses really don't show anything of what a dirge can do. I like debuffing and it helps everyone. I like buffing the group and making them do better, but I want to use my self-buff, too, and have some measure of good performance on my own, too. But.... it's frustrating, too. Too often dirges (and troubies) are seen as nothing but an AFK buff-bot, that we'd do just as good having our buffs running and just go on auto-follow because our individual contribution is so low. Even in groups (and raids) that like and/or respect dirges to some extent, the priests will be applauded for making it possible to succeed on an encounter when it was the dirge(s) doing all the rezzing, debuffing, spot healing, etc. It's more frustrating in groups where they don't want to realise it was the dirge that rezzed everyone who dropped so the healer could keep healing the tank while doing all the normal things.. even more frustrating when one of those is a parser and complains that the dirge did less damage than the DPS people who died at various times in the encounter. *rolls eyes*.So... I love the class, but I hate the idiot groups who don't really want to learn what a dirge does or give the dirge any credit for what they do. Sadly, even at 70, I run into more idiot groups than smart ones...

Despak · 11-10-2006, 11:36 PM

When they post parses, I look at them and think "wow look how much I helped the number crunchers". The one time someone said I should rank in the top ten I politely pointed out (well ok I told him F Off and learn what a Dirge is supposed to do) that I am there to help him look good and make sure the raid performs to the max and refused to res his over nuking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cos I was DPSing!!! Funnily enough he did shut up after sitting through half a fight staring at the revive screen :smileyvery-happy:

kahonen · 11-11-2006, 01:11 AM

I'm not convinced a parse does "shake people up and get them performing".We banned them on raids in my guild 'cos people tend to try too hard to get to the top and would steal agro.A raid isn't about how well 1 or 2 people do, it's about how a large group of people work together to achieve an aim!

Danter · 11-11-2006, 01:25 AM

The only thing that really matters on a parse is raid dps.

To get a high raid DPS, however, you definitely need to be doing your share of DPS (as well as your other jobs) and if you aren't then you're just cheating your raid as well as anyone else who is slacking.

-Kalll, 70 Dirge of Impulse on Mistmoore

Lindar Phamoncry · 11-11-2006, 02:51 AM

As a raid leader I always use a parser with the intent of trying to find my name on it... because if it does it means someone was slacking! =P

Harongats · 11-12-2006, 12:36 PM

No.

Reason.

A lot of bards are lazy, and I love playing circles around them.

Also it feels good to drop a 1k + parse down shocking other who didnt think we could parse...

I get a tingle when that happens :smileywink:

Lordviperscorpian · 11-12-2006, 11:56 PM

At this point if they allowed me to change into one of the other scout classes i probably would. Our utility gets more and more outdated with every expansion. Other classes get utility that blow ours out of the water in EoF and we get shafted yet agian. SoE has no idea what a bard class should be or that it even exists in EQ2. With that said im pretty much fed up with bards in EQ2. They will be slowly phased out until noone plays them anymore.

Aalliya · 11-13-2006, 06:44 AM

I love playing a dirge and the ability to debuff mobs/buff the group... we're great at increasing the DPS of a raid//group etc.... I can't tell you how often people want me in a raid group to help increase the DPS of the tanks/scouts. It's nice to be able to contribute to the group :smileyvery-happy:

I never get bored .... but I love bards.. played one til level 65 on EQ1 too

Cheers! ~

naMessiah · 11-13-2006, 07:03 PM

Aalliya wrote:
I love playing a dirge and the ability to debuff mobs/buff the group... we're great at increasing the DPS of a raid//group etc.... I can't tell you how often people want me in a raid group to help increase the DPS of the tanks/scouts. It's nice to be able to contribute to the group :smileyvery-happy:
I never get bored .... but I love bards.. played one til level 65 on EQ1 too
Cheers! ~

And by great at increasing DPS (s)he means from 1000 to 1020. With our 2nd offensive buff (Tomb's) maybe all the way to 1022. If it procs at all. Quality. Awesome.Edit: And I'm not tired of the class - I'm fed up with SOE.

Message Edited by naMessiah on 11-13-2006 06:05 AM

Whysprr_Wyrd · 11-13-2006, 07:35 PM

naMessiah wrote:

And by great at increasing DPS (s)he means from 1000 to 1020. With our 2nd offensive buff (Tomb's) maybe all the way to 1022. If it procs at all. Quality. Awesome.

Nah, you're not thinking like a dirge, my dear, you're thinking like the parsers who post the numbers and then whomp on the dirge for not posting high enough.

First, we increase dps by substantially more than that, you're just looking at direct buffage, iignoring debuffs. We debuff disease a lot for the SKs and warlocks and such. We debuff mitigation for every single melee attack. We debuff wisdom for every single spell. We debuff defense (Tarven's). We debuff avoidance though by some trivial amount. And, there's CoB.

Also, we reduce incoming dps, which at the least allows the healers to nuke more and may just allow the group to handle tougher content. Again, this is a substantial amount counting Daro's, Discante, and the Side Blade line, plus Lanet's and the interrupts.

A very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution in a fairly average group to be right up there with other scouts, and that didn't even look at our defensive contribution. AAs aside, and I agree the new lot is uninteresting, it's difficult to make a case that we're underpowered.

Problem is, you have to really think about it to get that, and who's going to think? Not the troubs, knee-deep in groupies. The predators are too busy skulking around in overtight shiny leather pants. The brigands and swashbucklers are too caught up in mustache-maintenance. Fighters, too many blows to the head. Clerics are busy arguing fine points of theology, often with maces. That leaves the magical types, and wizards don't believe anyone else should dps, warlocks are too depressed, summoners are too involved with their pets in ways I just don't want to get into, and the enchanters hate us. Actually, they hate me, personally, but it gets extended to all of us -- sorry about that.

Whysprr

Tomanak · 11-13-2006, 08:27 PM

Whysprr wrote:

and the enchanters hate us. Actually, they hate me, personally, but it gets extended to all of us -- sorry about that.

Whysprr

Now that explains everything...I guess I need to apologize to that chanter now SMILEY

On a raid, I dont worry if Im not on the parse. If I forget to put my hate buff back on the MT after a wipe, he notices. If I forgot to put my parry buff up, its noticed. If you are lying there dead and the healers are too busy keeping the MT up to rez you and I forget, you'd notice. If I dont debuff and slow the mob, people notice. During a raid, Im busy. I debuff, DPS, rez and occasionally throw oration out for a quick heal. I have had enough invites to raids and to jump guilds to worry about my value to a raid. Parses are for the raid leader to ensure that the raid is putting out the requisite amount of overall DPS. Anything else is just nuker posturing. I know, and my guildies know that Im more than a buff bot.

Am I burnt out on my dirge? No. Im burnt out on my Warlock and my Guard, but I still love my dirge.

naMessiah · 11-13-2006, 08:40 PM

Whysprr wrote:
naMessiah wrote:
And by great at increasing DPS (s)he means from 1000 to 1020. With our 2nd offensive buff (Tomb's) maybe all the way to 1022. If it procs at all. Quality. Awesome.
Nah, you're not thinking like a dirge, my dear, you're thinking like the parsers who post the numbers and then whomp on the dirge for not posting high enough.
First, we increase dps by substantially more than that, you're just looking at direct buffage, iignoring debuffs. We debuff disease a lot for the SKs and warlocks and such. We debuff mitigation for every single melee attack. We debuff wisdom for every single spell. We debuff defense (Tarven's). We debuff avoidance though by some trivial amount. And, there's CoB.
Also, we reduce incoming dps, which at the least allows the healers to nuke more and may just allow the group to handle tougher content. Again, this is a substantial amount counting Daro's, Discante, and the Side Blade line, plus Lanet's and the interrupts.
A very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution in a fairly average group to be right up there with other scouts, and that didn't even look at our defensive contribution. AAs aside, and I agree the new lot is uninteresting, it's difficult to make a case that we're underpowered.
Problem is, you have to really think about it to get that, and who's going to think? Not the troubs, knee-deep in groupies. The predators are too busy skulking around in overtight shiny leather pants. The brigands and swashbucklers are too caught up in mustache-maintenance. Fighters, too many blows to the head. Clerics are busy arguing fine points of theology, often with maces. That leaves the magical types, and wizards don't believe anyone else should dps, warlocks are too depressed, summoners are too involved with their pets in ways I just don't want to get into, and the enchanters hate us. Actually, they hate me, personally, but it gets extended to all of us -- sorry about that.
Whysprr

When he said he was invited to raid groups to increase scouts/tanks DPS I thought he ment to groups (using buffs) as debuffs kinda work for all 24 players in the raid. And by scouts/tanks I thought he ment scouts/tanks and not healers. I know about debuffs and that it will make the DPS of the group go up by a little, but it's not enough to call us a good offensive class/buffer.A very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution.How was it done? Got a link?

Whysprr_Wyrd · 11-13-2006, 10:36 PM

naMessiah wrote:

When he said he was invited to raid groups to increase scouts/tanks DPS I thought he ment to groups (using buffs) as debuffs kinda work for all 24 players in the raid. And by scouts/tanks I thought he ment scouts/tanks and not healers. I know about debuffs and that it will make the DPS of the group go up by a little, but it's not enough to call us a good offensive class/buffer.

How you figure, my dear? Isn't it overall contribution that counts, not how it's achieved? Would you evaluate only melee (but not ranged) dps and decide rangers aren't a good offensive class?

Our contribution is some complex combination of personal dps and improving others' output by buffing them and by debuffing the mob. Ignore part of it and you don't have the whole picture.

A very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution.
How was it done? Got a link?

Sure have -- this thread ought to be required reading for debating dirge effectiveness:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=11891&query.id=182973#M11891

Whysp

Priestbane · 11-13-2006, 10:48 PM

Also, there was another post that gave relative difference numbers. It's dated now (it's from before the proc/mainhand changes, for example), and it's based on a level 49 dirge at the time, but it reflects the design goals for the buffs in any event.

With that borne in mind:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=6000&query.id=183126

naMessiah · 11-14-2006, 02:30 AM

Whysprr wrote:

naMessiah wrote:

When he said he was invited to raid groups to increase scouts/tanks DPS I thought he ment to groups (using buffs) as debuffs kinda work for all 24 players in the raid. And by scouts/tanks I thought he ment scouts/tanks and not healers. I know about debuffs and that it will make the DPS of the group go up by a little, but it's not enough to call us a good offensive class/buffer.

How you figure, my dear? Isn't it overall contribution that counts, not how it's achieved? Would you evaluate only melee (but not ranged) dps and decide rangers aren't a good offensive class?

Our contribution is some complex combination of personal dps and improving others' output by buffing them and by debuffing the mob. Ignore part of it and you don't have the whole picture.
> First of all - what I'm sayin is that we're not the offensive buffers ppl seems to think we are (including some dirges). We have our DPS buff and thats it. We're not alone with debuffs (and buffs) but I don't think I have ever heard players 'claim' DPS from others except when it comes to bards...
'My defilers DPS is like 600. He only parse 200 but he can debuff, buff and heal. Make it 700.'
'Should add a couple of hundred DPS to my zerker coz my group went berserk a few times. And my 110 STR group buff should be worth some extra dmg. Right?'
'Please add another 2000 DPS to my brigand. Debuffs you know.'
Very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution.How was it done? Got a link?

Sure have -- this thread ought to be required reading for debating dirge effectiveness:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=11891&query.id=182973#M11891

Whysp
Well, those stats are useless. There are critical hits (ok, we help a bit with this), interrupts, resists, button-mashing-order, min-max dmg and debuffs from other classes. There's no way to tell where the DPS came from. Maybe the zerker's berserk-proc went off non-stop with haste/dps for the group? Luck with criticals? Luck with max dmg hits? Random.

Aalliya · 11-14-2006, 03:02 AM

<------- is a she :smileywink:

DUNN · 11-14-2006, 03:24 AM

I has been a fun ride but time to go back to my roots even if I don't get into raids. Not retiring him just going back to his original role of alt.

Whysprr_Wyrd · 11-14-2006, 04:29 AM

naMessiah wrote:

Well, those stats are useless. There are critical hits (ok, we help a bit with this), interrupts, resists, button-mashing-order, min-max dmg and debuffs from other classes. There's no way to tell where the DPS came from. Maybe the zerker's berserk-proc went off non-stop with haste/dps for the group? Luck with criticals? Luck with max dmg hits? Random.

I'm about done with this discussion, you're clearly believing what you want to believe, but attributing a 20% difference in a series of 60+ encounters to chance is ludicrous. Sure, it's not a blinded study, there are some uncontrolled variables, but 64 or 67 encounters is several thousand individual attacks. I don't have the original data to do statistics from, but I know a real effect when I see one. The numbers are internally consistent with any reasonable model of how we effect dps, they're quantitatively plausible, they meet every test of data validity one can expect in a casual gaming environment.

Outside of the physical, chemical, or biological sciences or very-well-funded biomedical studies, you won't get better data. If you don't believe this work you should just give up on anything data-driven and believe whatever you want.

Everyone else does, after all.

Whysprr Wyrdwynd

Priestbane · 11-14-2006, 04:39 AM

naMessiah wrote:

Whysprr wrote:

naMessiah wrote:

When he said he was invited to raid groups to increase scouts/tanks DPS I thought he ment to groups (using buffs) as debuffs kinda work for all 24 players in the raid. And by scouts/tanks I thought he ment scouts/tanks and not healers. I know about debuffs and that it will make the DPS of the group go up by a little, but it's not enough to call us a good offensive class/buffer.

How you figure, my dear? Isn't it overall contribution that counts, not how it's achieved? Would you evaluate only melee (but not ranged) dps and decide rangers aren't a good offensive class?

Our contribution is some complex combination of personal dps and improving others' output by buffing them and by debuffing the mob. Ignore part of it and you don't have the whole picture.

> First of all - what I'm sayin is that we're not the offensive buffers ppl seems to think we are (including some dirges). We have our DPS buff and thats it. We're not alone with debuffs (and buffs) but I don't think I have ever heard players 'claim' DPS from others except when it comes to bards...

'My defilers DPS is like 600. He only parse 200 but he can debuff, buff and heal. Make it 700.'

'Should add a couple of hundred DPS to my zerker coz my group went berserk a few times. And my 110 STR group buff should be worth some extra dmg. Right?'

'Please add another 2000 DPS to my brigand. Debuffs you know.'

Just because no one does doesn't mean they couldn't. We NEED to, because our are less obvious. But debilitate (for the couple seconds its active) very much contributes to a Brigand's worth... and everyone knows it. And very few people do it for the whole group (Zerks do, but theirs is on a proc basis.)

But you're right... I think we need MORE offensive buffs, and ones that are usfeul. Buffs that haste/increase DPS on CAs, (you know, the buffs that most DPS classes got for themselves). Fixing Tomb's to be a significant contribution. Adding a debuff (encounter) that does a reverse chimes reverberation thing (you know, chimes but every time the mob swings it hurts itself.) More stuff in that vein.

Very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution.
How was it done? Got a link?

Sure have -- this thread ought to be required reading for debating dirge effectiveness:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=11891&query.id=182973#M11891

Whysp

Well, those stats are useless. There are critical hits (ok, we help a bit with this), interrupts, resists, button-mashing-order, min-max dmg and debuffs from other classes. There's no way to tell where the DPS came from. Maybe the zerker's berserk-proc went off non-stop with haste/dps for the group? Luck with criticals? Luck with max dmg hits? Random.

Ridiculous. You make an assumption that those things are different from test to test across the whole testing scenario for each, which is what it would take to invalidate those numbers. (Different button mashing order for the first 64 tests than the latter 67 tests... silly) While you can question testing methodology, you should do so only after SEEING the methodology. And random things like crits and procs do not significantly change from test set to test set, because they average out over time. Except where, of course those things are change (like, say, from a buff).

naMessiah · 11-14-2006, 06:31 AM

Whysprr wrote:
naMessiah wrote:
Well, those stats are useless. There are critical hits (ok, we help a bit with this), interrupts, resists, button-mashing-order, min-max dmg and debuffs from other classes. There's no way to tell where the DPS came from. Maybe the zerker's berserk-proc went off non-stop with haste/dps for the group? Luck with criticals? Luck with max dmg hits? Random.
I'm about done with this discussion, you're clearly believing what you want to believe, but attributing a 20% difference in a series of 60+ encounters to chance is ludicrous. Sure, it's not a blinded study, there are some uncontrolled variables, but 64 or 67 encounters is several thousand individual attacks. I don't have the original data to do statistics from, but I know a real effect when I see one. The numbers are internally consistent with any reasonable model of how we effect dps, they're quantitatively plausible, they meet every test of data validity one can expect in a casual gaming environment.
Outside of the physical, chemical, or biological sciences or very-well-funded biomedical studies, you won't get better data. If you don't believe this work you should just give up on anything data-driven and believe whatever you want.
Everyone else does, after all.
Whysprr Wyrdwynd

If I understand you correctly you're sayin that just because it's that many encounters it can't be wrong and small things like crits, debuffs, resists and so on doesn't matter? Let's take an example and say we're fighting those firedrake trash-mobs in the Labs:I'm able to do 16.000 dmg.Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 640Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 533Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 457Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 400Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 355In the last second I hit the mob with Luda's and add another 2k to a total of 18.000 dmg.Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 720Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 600Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 514Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 450Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 400Perfect fight - debuffs land, criticals, no resists, max dmg hits - 20.000 dmg.Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 800Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 666Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 571Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 500Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 444They fought 131 encounters in that example and I bet the dmg + time wasn't the same in every fight (unless they're very good). What class did they have instead of the dirge in the first place? An assassin, a guardian or none? Did the dirges 'own' DPS speed up the killing by a few seconds? Were everyone else except the dirge the same during all 131 encounters or did they bring more DPS classes and had 10 secs removed from every encounter? Could be anything and that's why that example is useless. There's no way to tell exactly what's goin on, but I do know we don't have enough offensive buffs to make a difference in the end. The numbers jump up and down of all kinds of reasons - with or without a dirge in the group.

Whysprr_Wyrd · 11-14-2006, 08:24 AM

naMessiah wrote:

If I understand you correctly you're sayin that just because it's that many encounters it can't be wrong and small things like crits, debuffs, resists and so on doesn't matter?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I have to apologize, I'm a biomedical scientist in another life and I've spent years analyzing experiments where you take a horribly complex system, change one item, run it a bunch of times and tease out the effect of the one item statistically. This stuff's so automatic for me, I forget that people aren't born knowing it. It's a problem.

Briefly, think about it this way. Throw two regular 6-sided dice. On average, 6-8 come up a lot more than the rest, but on one throw you can get anything from 2 to 12. So if I throw one pair of dice and get a two, and you throw another pair and get a twelve, we can't draw any conclusions at all.

But, if I throw ten times and my average throw is a three -- and you throw ten times and your average is a ten -- those dice are loaded, dear, there's simply no doubt. Furthermore, if I throw a thousand times and my average is 7.5 and you throw a thousand times and yours is 7.0, there's even less doubt that my dice are loaded (they're just less loaded than in the previous example). All those random factors cancel out over time if you do enough repetitions.

Essentially all of scientific research employs this principle -- there may be a large amount of variation between individual trials but you do enough and the random factors cancel out, what's left is the real difference between the groups.

Let's take an example and say we're fighting those firedrake trash-mobs in the Labs:

I'm able to do 16.000 dmg.
Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 640
Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 533
Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 457
Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 400
Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 355

In the last second I hit the mob with Luda's and add another 2k to a total of 18.000 dmg.
Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 720
Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 600
Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 514
Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 450
Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 400

Perfect fight - debuffs land, criticals, no resists, max dmg hits - 20.000 dmg.
Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 800
Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 666
Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 571
Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 500
Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 444

This simply isn't how the combat system works. In a battle, you don't do a certain amount of damage and then stop, you keep whacking 'till someone goes down. Your dps fluctuates as you spam different CAs and spells, but overall dps for a fight doesn't drop as the fight gets longer because people keep dpsing as the fight goes along (it probably drops slightly because people front-load their most powerful attacks -- but only slightly). So a drop of dps from 700 to 400 as the fight goes from 25-45 seconds is unrealistic.

They fought 131 encounters in that example and I bet the dmg + time wasn't the same in every fight (unless they're very good). What class did they have instead of the dirge in the first place? An assassin, a guardian or none?

None -- the author was specific about that (it's the only valid way to do the experiment, also).

The numbers jump up and down of all kinds of reasons - with or without a dirge in the group.

They do -- but if the only difference between the two groups is plus-and-minus dirge, then over 60+ mobs 'all kinds of reasons' will vary the same plus-or-minus. Sometimes you'll get more crits, sometimes fewer -- but on average, you'll get the same amount if you do enough mobs. And 60 and a bit is enough to be quite confident that the dirge-attributable dps was within the estimate Ekho gave, plus or minus 10-20%.

And I do apologize for assuming more statistical knowledge than most people have.

Whysprr

Message Edited by Whysprr on 11-13-2006 07:27 PM

Jal · 11-14-2006, 02:23 PM

*Hates anything involving numbers*I just look at the difference between groups not numbers but the 'feel' of a group with a dirge in. If im there and do nothing not alot extra happens people have a bit more power and do a bit more damage and may avoid the occasional attack, if i hit the debuffs the tank/healers have it easier, the mages/scouts do more damage and things drop quickly.I can top the parse on my necro easily in raids but i actually prefer playing my Dirge because i help the raid more.Stick me in a melee heavy instance group and you have carnage on a scale ive not seen matched by any other class ive played.

naMessiah · 11-14-2006, 06:05 PM

I give up. On all my parses I've never been able to tell the DPS difference between a group with or without a dirge, and as I said above, the DPS jumps up and down of all kinds of reasons. Parse a raid with 24 (or 12-1 SMILEY

players (maybe 6-18 different ones between the runs?) and then say the increase was because a dirge joined the group is... well, everything but accurate. Wouldn't use probabilities for statistics in this case. Maybe in a normal full group with the same people, in the same gear and with the same spell qualities in every fight.I'm only sure about Riana's buff and on my last lab raid it would've increased my DPS by 19 zone-wide.

11-10-2006, 04:43 PM	#3
Whysprr_Wyrd Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 908	Just as a methodological comment, dirges who're burned out on the class will be less likely to hang out here than those who enjoy it. Whysp __________________

11-10-2006, 05:35 PM	#4
SorrySonOfA Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 114	When they post up parses in Raids, I generally flinch and don't look. I also hate that when I think I'm really working in some high damage specials in a raid and I rarely see any orange numbers flying over the mobs head (and the ones that do are so small compared to other's hits). But otherwise no. I like the things I can do as a dirge. I know I'm making a huge differance just by doing the things I do, and I can't think of another class I'd rather play. I've got many alts, and enjoy most all of them, but if I'm serious about doing something, the dirge is who comes out. __________________

11-10-2006, 08:54 PM	#6
josh.kaz Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12	Burnt out.. not a question.. Love her to death.. lol frustrated.. at times, yes. On PvP I do fairly well in Solo PvP but nothing like some other classes. I know I am not gonna top the parse or even come close to that.. LoL but I help others do so, and they adore me for it. Thats where I get satisfaction. Overall I LOVE LOVE LOVE my Dirge and wouldn't want to play another in Rading situations. __________________

11-10-2006, 10:56 PM	#8
Rijacki Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,842	I like the class, I really do, enough to consider having a fae dirge just for -fun-. I hate parsers and those who make the comments of "it always helps to post that to shake people up and get them performing". Those are least likely to look at -why- there are higher numbers for the whole group but focus on the performance of each person. Thus, the parses really don't show anything of what a dirge can do. I like debuffing and it helps everyone. I like buffing the group and making them do better, but I want to use my self-buff, too, and have some measure of good performance on my own, too. But.... it's frustrating, too. Too often dirges (and troubies) are seen as nothing but an AFK buff-bot, that we'd do just as good having our buffs running and just go on auto-follow because our individual contribution is so low. Even in groups (and raids) that like and/or respect dirges to some extent, the priests will be applauded for making it possible to succeed on an encounter when it was the dirge(s) doing all the rezzing, debuffing, spot healing, etc. It's more frustrating in groups where they don't want to realise it was the dirge that rezzed everyone who dropped so the healer could keep healing the tank while doing all the normal things.. even more frustrating when one of those is a parser and complains that the dirge did less damage than the DPS people who died at various times in the encounter. rolls eyes.So... I love the class, but I hate the idiot groups who don't really want to learn what a dirge does or give the dirge any credit for what they do. Sadly, even at 70, I run into more idiot groups than smart ones... __________________

11-11-2006, 02:51 AM	#12
Lindar Phamoncry Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 323	As a raid leader I always use a parser with the intent of trying to find my name on it... because if it does it means someone was slacking! =P __________________ Lindar Phamoncry, Ayr'Dal Dirty Dirge of 80 Songs Phamon Ne'Mesis, Troll Berserker of the Fourth Tier Faemon Treewasher, Fae Swashy of far to little playtime

11-10-2006, 01:28 PM	#1
Hartw Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	just starting out here, Any dirges tired of being dirges, burnt out, fed up, and if you could change classes what would you be?

11-10-2006, 01:39 PM	#2
Jal General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,345	Honestly i enjoy my dirge, i have an alt i can switch to for solo/high dps on raids so playing my dirge in raids as a helper and debuffer is a really nice change. If you love helping your group our or making a difference in raids without needing to be top of the parse then you should enjoy your dirge.

11-10-2006, 07:13 PM	#5
spa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 175	Dirge and Guard/Zerker are the only classes i like playing. A reason i love playing the Dirge is because of its multi-taskability that a skilled-experianced Dirge can utilise - particuarly at raids. Its not a hard class to play, the hardest thing about it is striving to be faster with using the tools-abilities of the class. I love the Dirge that much, that i couldnt think of any other class i want to be for my Fae alt when EoF comes out, so im going to make a Fae Dirge! mainly to experiance the newbie content, plus the Fae traits just pwn all over my Halfling Dirge -- which i love alot also lol. I considered being a Fae Troubador, but theres nothing challenging about that class, they do worse DPS than the Dirge and got nothing else to do other than sit there with auto-attack on and fire up their Mage group buff ability. Im not totally burnt out, despite i was 5th Inquisiter on server to lvl50 (while also played a Ranger to lvl32ish), changed my main to Dirge then became server 10th Dirge to 50, 1st to 60, 3rd to 70. In all that time i was also leveling my Guardian alt. All 3 toons have been lvl70 aa50 for quite a while now. All done Prissy1 aswell as Guardian completed Claymore, Dirge has done all 3. My Dirge is Fabled out and all but two spells missing for full master spell line. Inq and Guard are halfway there in comparison. My Inq had done all of the pre-DoF access and heritage quests within the first 4 months of EQ2 release (when there was next to none, very little web info, such as Ogaming). Message Edited by spark on 11-10-2006 06:29 AM

11-10-2006, 09:01 PM	#7
DarkVillian Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 282	Yeah I love my Dirge, main was a zerker on PVP server for a while, then came to a care bear server to raid. Ummm, fully mastered I never really get resisted, love the utility, and enjoy feeling like your rezzes, debuffs, or emergency heal can save a raid from a wipe. We can parse high in the right setup, but overall are a utility that can greatly impact a raid...I do have to admit that its nice to see yourself in the parse, but even better when you see a raid as a success and you were a part of it :smileyvery-happy:

11-10-2006, 11:36 PM	#9
Despak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 424	When they post parses, I look at them and think "wow look how much I helped the number crunchers". The one time someone said I should rank in the top ten I politely pointed out (well ok I told him F Off and learn what a Dirge is supposed to do) that I am there to help him look good and make sure the raid performs to the max and refused to res his over nuking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cos I was DPSing!!! Funnily enough he did shut up after sitting through half a fight staring at the revive screen :smileyvery-happy:

11-11-2006, 01:11 AM	#10
kahonen Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 320	I'm not convinced a parse does "shake people up and get them performing".We banned them on raids in my guild 'cos people tend to try too hard to get to the top and would steal agro.A raid isn't about how well 1 or 2 people do, it's about how a large group of people work together to achieve an aim!

11-11-2006, 01:25 AM	#11
Danter General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 321	The only thing that really matters on a parse is raid dps. To get a high raid DPS, however, you definitely need to be doing your share of DPS (as well as your other jobs) and if you aren't then you're just cheating your raid as well as anyone else who is slacking. -Kalll, 70 Dirge of Impulse on Mistmoore

11-12-2006, 12:36 PM	#13
Harongats Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 36	No. Reason. A lot of bards are lazy, and I love playing circles around them. Also it feels good to drop a 1k + parse down shocking other who didnt think we could parse... I get a tingle when that happens :smileywink:

11-12-2006, 11:56 PM	#14
Lordviperscorpian Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 405	At this point if they allowed me to change into one of the other scout classes i probably would. Our utility gets more and more outdated with every expansion. Other classes get utility that blow ours out of the water in EoF and we get shafted yet agian. SoE has no idea what a bard class should be or that it even exists in EQ2. With that said im pretty much fed up with bards in EQ2. They will be slowly phased out until noone plays them anymore.

11-13-2006, 06:44 AM	#15
Aalliya Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 14	I love playing a dirge and the ability to debuff mobs/buff the group... we're great at increasing the DPS of a raid//group etc.... I can't tell you how often people want me in a raid group to help increase the DPS of the tanks/scouts. It's nice to be able to contribute to the group :smileyvery-happy: I never get bored .... but I love bards.. played one til level 65 on EQ1 too Cheers! ~

11-13-2006, 07:03 PM	#16
naMessiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 148	Aalliya wrote: I love playing a dirge and the ability to debuff mobs/buff the group... we're great at increasing the DPS of a raid//group etc.... I can't tell you how often people want me in a raid group to help increase the DPS of the tanks/scouts. It's nice to be able to contribute to the group :smileyvery-happy: I never get bored .... but I love bards.. played one til level 65 on EQ1 too Cheers! ~ And by great at increasing DPS (s)he means from 1000 to 1020. With our 2nd offensive buff (Tomb's) maybe all the way to 1022. If it procs at all. Quality. Awesome.Edit: And I'm not tired of the class - I'm fed up with SOE. Message Edited by naMessiah on 11-13-2006 06:05 AM

11-13-2006, 07:35 PM	#17
Whysprr_Wyrd Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 908	naMessiah wrote: And by great at increasing DPS (s)he means from 1000 to 1020. With our 2nd offensive buff (Tomb's) maybe all the way to 1022. If it procs at all. Quality. Awesome. Nah, you're not thinking like a dirge, my dear, you're thinking like the parsers who post the numbers and then whomp on the dirge for not posting high enough. First, we increase dps by substantially more than that, you're just looking at direct buffage, iignoring debuffs. We debuff disease a lot for the SKs and warlocks and such. We debuff mitigation for every single melee attack. We debuff wisdom for every single spell. We debuff defense (Tarven's). We debuff avoidance though by some trivial amount. And, there's CoB. Also, we reduce incoming dps, which at the least allows the healers to nuke more and may just allow the group to handle tougher content. Again, this is a substantial amount counting Daro's, Discante, and the Side Blade line, plus Lanet's and the interrupts. A very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution in a fairly average group to be right up there with other scouts, and that didn't even look at our defensive contribution. AAs aside, and I agree the new lot is uninteresting, it's difficult to make a case that we're underpowered. Problem is, you have to really think about it to get that, and who's going to think? Not the troubs, knee-deep in groupies. The predators are too busy skulking around in overtight shiny leather pants. The brigands and swashbucklers are too caught up in mustache-maintenance. Fighters, too many blows to the head. Clerics are busy arguing fine points of theology, often with maces. That leaves the magical types, and wizards don't believe anyone else should dps, warlocks are too depressed, summoners are too involved with their pets in ways I just don't want to get into, and the enchanters hate us. Actually, they hate me, personally, but it gets extended to all of us -- sorry about that. Whysprr __________________

11-13-2006, 08:27 PM	#18
Tomanak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 595	Whysprr wrote: and the enchanters hate us. Actually, they hate me, personally, but it gets extended to all of us -- sorry about that. Whysprr Now that explains everything...I guess I need to apologize to that chanter now On a raid, I dont worry if Im not on the parse. If I forget to put my hate buff back on the MT after a wipe, he notices. If I forgot to put my parry buff up, its noticed. If you are lying there dead and the healers are too busy keeping the MT up to rez you and I forget, you'd notice. If I dont debuff and slow the mob, people notice. During a raid, Im busy. I debuff, DPS, rez and occasionally throw oration out for a quick heal. I have had enough invites to raids and to jump guilds to worry about my value to a raid. Parses are for the raid leader to ensure that the raid is putting out the requisite amount of overall DPS. Anything else is just nuker posturing. I know, and my guildies know that Im more than a buff bot. Am I burnt out on my dirge? No. Im burnt out on my Warlock and my Guard, but I still love my dirge. __________________

11-13-2006, 08:40 PM	#19
naMessiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 148	Whysprr wrote: naMessiah wrote: And by great at increasing DPS (s)he means from 1000 to 1020. With our 2nd offensive buff (Tomb's) maybe all the way to 1022. If it procs at all. Quality. Awesome. Nah, you're not thinking like a dirge, my dear, you're thinking like the parsers who post the numbers and then whomp on the dirge for not posting high enough. First, we increase dps by substantially more than that, you're just looking at direct buffage, iignoring debuffs. We debuff disease a lot for the SKs and warlocks and such. We debuff mitigation for every single melee attack. We debuff wisdom for every single spell. We debuff defense (Tarven's). We debuff avoidance though by some trivial amount. And, there's CoB. Also, we reduce incoming dps, which at the least allows the healers to nuke more and may just allow the group to handle tougher content. Again, this is a substantial amount counting Daro's, Discante, and the Side Blade line, plus Lanet's and the interrupts. A very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution in a fairly average group to be right up there with other scouts, and that didn't even look at our defensive contribution. AAs aside, and I agree the new lot is uninteresting, it's difficult to make a case that we're underpowered. Problem is, you have to really think about it to get that, and who's going to think? Not the troubs, knee-deep in groupies. The predators are too busy skulking around in overtight shiny leather pants. The brigands and swashbucklers are too caught up in mustache-maintenance. Fighters, too many blows to the head. Clerics are busy arguing fine points of theology, often with maces. That leaves the magical types, and wizards don't believe anyone else should dps, warlocks are too depressed, summoners are too involved with their pets in ways I just don't want to get into, and the enchanters hate us. Actually, they hate me, personally, but it gets extended to all of us -- sorry about that. Whysprr When he said he was invited to raid groups to increase scouts/tanks DPS I thought he ment to groups (using buffs) as debuffs kinda work for all 24 players in the raid. And by scouts/tanks I thought he ment scouts/tanks and not healers. I know about debuffs and that it will make the DPS of the group go up by a little, but it's not enough to call us a good offensive class/buffer.A very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution.How was it done? Got a link?

11-13-2006, 10:36 PM	#20
Whysprr_Wyrd Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 908	naMessiah wrote: When he said he was invited to raid groups to increase scouts/tanks DPS I thought he ment to groups (using buffs) as debuffs kinda work for all 24 players in the raid. And by scouts/tanks I thought he ment scouts/tanks and not healers. I know about debuffs and that it will make the DPS of the group go up by a little, but it's not enough to call us a good offensive class/buffer. How you figure, my dear? Isn't it overall contribution that counts, not how it's achieved? Would you evaluate only melee (but not ranged) dps and decide rangers aren't a good offensive class? Our contribution is some complex combination of personal dps and improving others' output by buffing them and by debuffing the mob. Ignore part of it and you don't have the whole picture. *A very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution.* How was it done? Got a link? Sure have -- this thread ought to be required reading for debating dirge effectiveness: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=11891&query.id=182973#M11891 Whysp __________________

11-13-2006, 10:48 PM	#21
Priestbane Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,527	Also, there was another post that gave relative difference numbers. It's dated now (it's from before the proc/mainhand changes, for example), and it's based on a level 49 dirge at the time, but it reflects the design goals for the buffs in any event. With that borne in mind: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=6000&query.id=183126 __________________

11-14-2006, 02:30 AM	#22
naMessiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 148	Whysprr wrote: naMessiah wrote: When he said he was invited to raid groups to increase scouts/tanks DPS I thought he ment to groups (using buffs) as debuffs kinda work for all 24 players in the raid. And by scouts/tanks I thought he ment scouts/tanks and not healers. I know about debuffs and that it will make the DPS of the group go up by a little, but it's not enough to call us a good offensive class/buffer. How you figure, my dear? Isn't it overall contribution that counts, not how it's achieved? Would you evaluate only melee (but not ranged) dps and decide rangers aren't a good offensive class? Our contribution is some complex combination of personal dps and improving others' output by buffing them and by debuffing the mob. Ignore part of it and you don't have the whole picture. > First of all - what I'm sayin is that we're not the offensive buffers ppl seems to think we are (including some dirges). We have our DPS buff and thats it. We're not alone with debuffs (and buffs) but I don't think I have ever heard players 'claim' DPS from others except when it comes to bards... 'My defilers DPS is like 600. He only parse 200 but he can debuff, buff and heal. Make it 700.' 'Should add a couple of hundred DPS to my zerker coz my group went berserk a few times. And my 110 STR group buff should be worth some extra dmg. Right?' 'Please add another 2000 DPS to my brigand. Debuffs you know.' *Very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution.*How was it done? Got a link? Sure have -- this thread ought to be required reading for debating dirge effectiveness: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=11891&query.id=182973#M11891 Whysp Well, those stats are useless. There are critical hits (ok, we help a bit with this), interrupts, resists, button-mashing-order, min-max dmg and debuffs from other classes. There's no way to tell where the DPS came from. Maybe the zerker's berserk-proc went off non-stop with haste/dps for the group? Luck with criticals? Luck with max dmg hits? Random.

11-14-2006, 03:02 AM	#23
Aalliya Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 14	<------- is a she :smileywink:

11-14-2006, 03:24 AM	#24
DUNN Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 253	I has been a fun ride but time to go back to my roots even if I don't get into raids. Not retiring him just going back to his original role of alt. __________________ Dunnott 70 SK Tumaedre 70th Song I wonder how much time i have with this name

11-14-2006, 04:29 AM	#25
Whysprr_Wyrd Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 908	naMessiah wrote: Well, those stats are useless. There are critical hits (ok, we help a bit with this), interrupts, resists, button-mashing-order, min-max dmg and debuffs from other classes. There's no way to tell where the DPS came from. Maybe the zerker's berserk-proc went off non-stop with haste/dps for the group? Luck with criticals? Luck with max dmg hits? Random. I'm about done with this discussion, you're clearly believing what you want to believe, but attributing a 20% difference in a series of 60+ encounters to chance is ludicrous. Sure, it's not a blinded study, there are some uncontrolled variables, but 64 or 67 encounters is several thousand individual attacks. I don't have the original data to do statistics from, but I know a real effect when I see one. The numbers are internally consistent with any reasonable model of how we effect dps, they're quantitatively plausible, they meet every test of data validity one can expect in a casual gaming environment. Outside of the physical, chemical, or biological sciences or very-well-funded biomedical studies, you won't get better data. If you don't believe this work you should just give up on anything data-driven and believe whatever you want. Everyone else does, after all. Whysprr Wyrdwynd __________________

11-14-2006, 04:39 AM	#26
Priestbane Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,527	naMessiah wrote: Whysprr wrote: naMessiah wrote: When he said he was invited to raid groups to increase scouts/tanks DPS I thought he ment to groups (using buffs) as debuffs kinda work for all 24 players in the raid. And by scouts/tanks I thought he ment scouts/tanks and not healers. I know about debuffs and that it will make the DPS of the group go up by a little, but it's not enough to call us a good offensive class/buffer. How you figure, my dear? Isn't it overall contribution that counts, not how it's achieved? Would you evaluate only melee (but not ranged) dps and decide rangers aren't a good offensive class? Our contribution is some complex combination of personal dps and improving others' output by buffing them and by debuffing the mob. Ignore part of it and you don't have the whole picture. > First of all - what I'm sayin is that we're not the offensive buffers ppl seems to think we are (including some dirges). We have our DPS buff and thats it. We're not alone with debuffs (and buffs) but I don't think I have ever heard players 'claim' DPS from others except when it comes to bards... 'My defilers DPS is like 600. He only parse 200 but he can debuff, buff and heal. Make it 700.' 'Should add a couple of hundred DPS to my zerker coz my group went berserk a few times. And my 110 STR group buff should be worth some extra dmg. Right?' 'Please add another 2000 DPS to my brigand. Debuffs you know.' Just because no one does doesn't mean they couldn't. We NEED to, because our are less obvious. But debilitate (for the couple seconds its active) very much contributes to a Brigand's worth... and everyone knows it. And very few people do it for the whole group (Zerks do, but theirs is on a proc basis.) But you're right... I think we need MORE offensive buffs, and ones that are usfeul. Buffs that haste/increase DPS on CAs, (you know, the buffs that most DPS classes got for themselves). Fixing Tomb's to be a significant contribution. Adding a debuff (encounter) that does a reverse chimes reverberation thing (you know, chimes but every time the mob swings it hurts itself.) More stuff in that vein. *Very-well-done-and-analyzed parse a couple months ago showed our offensive contribution.* How was it done? Got a link? Sure have -- this thread ought to be required reading for debating dirge effectiveness: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=11891&query.id=182973#M11891 Whysp Well, those stats are useless. There are critical hits (ok, we help a bit with this), interrupts, resists, button-mashing-order, min-max dmg and debuffs from other classes. There's no way to tell where the DPS came from. Maybe the zerker's berserk-proc went off non-stop with haste/dps for the group? Luck with criticals? Luck with max dmg hits? Random. Ridiculous. You make an assumption that those things are different from test to test across the whole testing scenario for each, which is what it would take to invalidate those numbers. (Different button mashing order for the first 64 tests than the latter 67 tests... silly) While you can question testing methodology, you should do so only after SEEING the methodology. And random things like crits and procs do not significantly change from test set to test set, because they average out over time. Except where, of course those things are change (like, say, from a buff). __________________

11-14-2006, 06:31 AM	#27
naMessiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 148	Whysprr wrote: naMessiah wrote: Well, those stats are useless. There are critical hits (ok, we help a bit with this), interrupts, resists, button-mashing-order, min-max dmg and debuffs from other classes. There's no way to tell where the DPS came from. Maybe the zerker's berserk-proc went off non-stop with haste/dps for the group? Luck with criticals? Luck with max dmg hits? Random. I'm about done with this discussion, you're clearly believing what you want to believe, but attributing a 20% difference in a series of 60+ encounters to chance is ludicrous. Sure, it's not a blinded study, there are some uncontrolled variables, but 64 or 67 encounters is several thousand individual attacks. I don't have the original data to do statistics from, but I know a real effect when I see one. The numbers are internally consistent with any reasonable model of how we effect dps, they're quantitatively plausible, they meet every test of data validity one can expect in a casual gaming environment. Outside of the physical, chemical, or biological sciences or very-well-funded biomedical studies, you won't get better data. If you don't believe this work you should just give up on anything data-driven and believe whatever you want. Everyone else does, after all. Whysprr Wyrdwynd If I understand you correctly you're sayin that just because it's that many encounters it can't be wrong and small things like crits, debuffs, resists and so on doesn't matter? Let's take an example and say we're fighting those firedrake trash-mobs in the Labs:I'm able to do 16.000 dmg.Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 640Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 533Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 457Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 400Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 355In the last second I hit the mob with Luda's and add another 2k to a total of 18.000 dmg.Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 720Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 600Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 514Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 450Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 400Perfect fight - debuffs land, criticals, no resists, max dmg hits - 20.000 dmg.Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 800Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 666Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 571Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 500Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 444They fought 131 encounters in that example and I bet the dmg + time wasn't the same in every fight (unless they're very good). What class did they have instead of the dirge in the first place? An assassin, a guardian or none? Did the dirges 'own' DPS speed up the killing by a few seconds? Were everyone else except the dirge the same during all 131 encounters or did they bring more DPS classes and had 10 secs removed from every encounter? Could be anything and that's why that example is useless. There's no way to tell exactly what's goin on, but I do know we don't have enough offensive buffs to make a difference in the end. The numbers jump up and down of all kinds of reasons - with or without a dirge in the group.

11-14-2006, 08:24 AM	#28
Whysprr_Wyrd Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 908	naMessiah wrote: If I understand you correctly you're sayin that just because it's that many encounters it can't be wrong and small things like crits, debuffs, resists and so on doesn't matter? Yes, that's *exactly* what I'm saying. I have to apologize, I'm a biomedical scientist in another life and I've spent years analyzing experiments where you take a horribly complex system, change one item, run it a bunch of times and tease out the effect of the one item statistically. This stuff's so automatic for me, I forget that people aren't born knowing it. It's a problem. Briefly, think about it this way. Throw two regular 6-sided dice. On average, 6-8 come up a lot more than the rest, but on one throw you can get anything from 2 to 12. So if I throw one pair of dice and get a two, and you throw another pair and get a twelve, we can't draw any conclusions at all. But, if I throw ten times and my average throw is a three -- and you throw ten times and your average is a ten -- those dice are loaded, dear, there's simply no doubt. Furthermore, if I throw a thousand times and my average is 7.5 and you throw a thousand times and yours is 7.0, there's even less doubt that my dice are loaded (they're just less loaded than in the previous example). All those random factors cancel out over time if you do enough repetitions. Essentially all of scientific research employs this principle -- there may be a large amount of variation between individual trials but you do enough and the random factors cancel out, what's left is the real difference between the groups. Let's take an example and say we're fighting those firedrake trash-mobs in the Labs: I'm able to do 16.000 dmg. Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 640 Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 533 Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 457 Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 400 Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 355 In the last second I hit the mob with Luda's and add another 2k to a total of 18.000 dmg. Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 720 Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 600 Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 514 Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 450 Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 400 Perfect fight - debuffs land, criticals, no resists, max dmg hits - 20.000 dmg. Fight takes 25 secs, my DPS is 800 Fight takes 30 secs, my DPS is 666 Fight takes 35 secs, my DPS is 571 Fight takes 40 secs, my DPS is 500 Fight takes 45 secs, my DPS is 444 This simply isn't how the combat system works. In a battle, you don't do a certain amount of damage and then stop, you keep whacking 'till someone goes down. Your dps fluctuates as you spam different CAs and spells, but overall dps for a fight doesn't drop as the fight gets longer because people keep dpsing as the fight goes along (it probably drops slightly because people front-load their most powerful attacks -- but only slightly). So a drop of dps from 700 to 400 as the fight goes from 25-45 seconds is unrealistic. They fought 131 encounters in that example and I bet the dmg + time wasn't the same in every fight (unless they're very good). What class did they have instead of the dirge in the first place? An assassin, a guardian or none? None -- the author was specific about that (it's the only valid way to do the experiment, also). The numbers jump up and down of all kinds of reasons - with or without a dirge in the group. They do -- but if the only difference between the two groups is plus-and-minus dirge, then over 60+ mobs 'all kinds of reasons' will vary the same plus-or-minus. Sometimes you'll get more crits, sometimes fewer -- but on average, you'll get the same amount if you do enough mobs. And 60 and a bit is enough to be quite confident that the dirge-attributable dps was within the estimate Ekho gave, plus or minus 10-20%. And I do apologize for assuming more statistical knowledge than most people have. Whysprr Message Edited by Whysprr on 11-13-2006 07:27 PM __________________

11-14-2006, 02:23 PM	#29
Jal General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,345	Hates anything involving numbersI just look at the difference between groups not numbers but the 'feel' of a group with a dirge in. If im there and do nothing not alot extra happens people have a bit more power and do a bit more damage and may avoid the occasional attack, if i hit the debuffs the tank/healers have it easier, the mages/scouts do more damage and things drop quickly.I can top the parse on my necro easily in raids but i actually prefer playing my Dirge because i help the raid more.Stick me in a melee heavy instance group and you have carnage on a scale ive not seen matched by any other class ive played.

11-14-2006, 06:05 PM	#30
naMessiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 148	I give up. On all my parses I've never been able to tell the DPS difference between a group with or without a dirge, and as I said above, the DPS jumps up and down of all kinds of reasons. Parse a raid with 24 (or 12-1 players (maybe 6-18 different ones between the runs?) and then say the increase was because a dirge joined the group is... well, everything but accurate. Wouldn't use probabilities for statistics in this case. Maybe in a normal full group with the same people, in the same gear and with the same spell qualities in every fight.I'm only sure about Riana's buff and on my last lab raid it would've increased my DPS by 19 zone-wide.