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Old 02-13-2005, 06:39 PM   #1
SkullSplit

 
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After readin many of the posts and talking to alot of ppl about the changes that are bout to come in play i want to bring u my opinion and would like to hear yours to so here is mine:
 
The bigest change and probably the most important on is the fact that each class will be able to refine all of the materials they need and creat all of there components for there finished iteams.
 
For those who dont know much about crafting i will explain how does it works-for example:
I am a weapon smith and i want to make me a carbonite great sword for that i need to have
1)carbonite edge(as a weapon smith i can make those)
2)carbonite crossguard(as a weapon smith i can make those)
3)carbonite pommels-hese i cant make so i need to ask a jewelerer to make them for me
Even more each combain you make needs a WORT (wash/oil/resin/temper)
these can be made by an Alchamist.
Now as u can see to make even one weapon requires me to ask 2 other players to make me components so i can make me sword and sell it.
now with the changes i will be able to make me own WORT and all things like
pommels/staves/studs/shods/straps/cords now it that good or bad??
 
As i said il give u my opinion which is "it is very bad' I will explain why:
For once the income to all of the classes will at least halfed, classes like Alchmists will become almost uslees when all classes will make all there own WORT
the weapon smith class will not be able to sell spikes any more crafters will not sell there staves and etc those components that are traded between one crafter to another is about half of our currant income.
another reason is how the market and trading will look after this patch, at the curant state the market is very active more in components even then finished iteams il explain u why, as u must know most ppl even 85% of the players put most of there efort in adventuring and not crafting now the market of a crafter selling to a non-crafter is prety dead what happens is that the puts his finished iteam for sale and someone else buys it thats it, it is same in weapons armor food bags and etc. The place where the market is the most alive is the components where there is a constent trade between players for example  i always need to buy  components to make my weapons and i sell spikes to another trader to make his iteams and so on and on. (that is a non stop trading between us crafters)
The place that i think this workes the best is in the crafting chanel in FP (mabey its the same in quenos) if any one will listen to it, u will see constent orders from 1 trader to another, the trade there is so active that each person there knows most if not all the other ppl that are using it. That necacety for other ppl components made an almost clan like socity of friends between traders and that may be the thing i less want to lose.
I have to say that i undrstand ppl that have a hard time geting the stuff u need i had a hard time too in the begining but if you try u will soon discover that others need youre help too so if u help others they will help u and that will make a conaction between you and thats may be the real meaning of online rpg, cause if anyone can make all things he needs and dont need any otheres why wont play in single game and save 15$ a month.
The patch will also prevent from any more socitys like are now from being created and even though it will make crafting a bit easer it will destroy all the fun in it, that is the orders and the copartion between players that in the end comes in the form of the armor u buy at youre broker.
After a bit of criticism I wanted to manition that this patch has alot of good points so not all of it is bad only the crafting part (lol)
 
To finish i want to give an idea of my own and id be happy to hear youre respons:
as some know and some dont u can get writs for craftin from NPC's those are orders for a number of iteam as it is now they always ask u to make shaped items(rather low lvl) that means that the exp gained by it is very low and those writs are not worth doing if those writs or atleast some of them would ask for pristin iteams it will make the crafting more fun and it will have more meaning instead of just grinding and selling to a vendor.
 
thnx for reading hope to hear youre opinions:smileyhappy:
 
 
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Old 02-13-2005, 08:45 PM   #2
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SkullSpliter wrote:
:
The bigest change and probably the most important on is the fact that each class will be able to refine all of the materials they need and creat all of there components for there finished iteams.
For those who dont know much about crafting i will explain how does it works-for example:
As i said il give u my opinion which is "it is very bad' I will explain why:
For once the income to all of the classes will at least halfed, classes like Alchmists will become almost uslees when all classes will make all there own WORT
the weapon smith class will not be able to sell spikes any more crafters will not sell there staves and etc those components that are traded between one crafter to another is about half of our currant income.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Your logic is faulty on a number of points.1) You assume that once everyone can make subcomponents across the board that everyone WILL do exactly that.2) That most crafters have huge amounts of time to spend on non-skill subcomponents that will cost more (both in fuel and time-down from crafting finished products or other avenues of gameplay)3) The removal of interdependencies will destroy any inter-tradeskill relationships.If you want to be a VERY successful crafter, you actually should never be crafting anything BUT finished products. Not subcomponents. If you're spending all your time making subcomponents...all that time away from finished products...then you'll never expand very much at all. Hence inter-tradeskills will continue to expand (infact, i expect that they will flourish). Simply put, at the moment the economy is a soci-fascist model where crafters only craft in very narrow ranges (except alchemist) dictated by the game developers. Once the crafters are freed of these narrow ranges, they'll have the CHOICE to make subcomponents if (as we can see now in the LIVE economy) extortionist prices are being charged for subcomponents (this has been observed on servers - multi-ALT monopolies ( styfling competition and capping advancing crafters far below their own crafters (by control the subcomponent prices) and subjugating the mass player base to inane prices for tier 3, 4 or 5 finished products.Removing the tradeskill interdependencies is the only way for the economy to work. At the moment, the economy is dieing...and SOE is bravely taking the necessary measures to add more player-control and choice into a very restrictive crafting world.
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Old 02-13-2005, 09:22 PM   #3
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I for one am quite glad the dependencies are going. Oh sure I'll have less people wanting to buy interims and when they do, they'll want to pay less. But the truth is, I'm sick and tired of having to hunt all over hell and creation for an interim I need. I shouldn't have to beg and plead strangers, or inconvenience friends who would rather be doing something else to make me interims. Frankly, it's not that hard or time consuming to make some of these interims but people just don't want to and so it's a complete pain to do finish items for exp or sale. I know some of you have secured a nice supply line for all your interims, or some of you don't need interims because you just make interims (this most applies to alchemists) to sell. And for the people in this group I'm sure this change is devastating. I'm sorry that everyone couldn't be accomodated. But I do believe those in this group are overall the minority and despite your losses, yours truly is absolutely thrilled at the notion of finally being able to create all the "finish" type items on his list without rolling up a bunch of alts.
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Old 02-13-2005, 09:44 PM   #4
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great post skull, couldnt agree with you more... This patch will really kill the current economy and alot of the tradeskill interaction.. Yes there will still be a little money to be made and some interaction but it will be alot more fun to spend your time adventuring then spending all day at a crafting station to make much less profit then an adventurer will be able to make resourcing in a few hours in feerrott ect.
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Old 02-13-2005, 09:46 PM   #5
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This isn't a problem. Many crafters used a alchem alt or mule before the patch and will continue to do so. The patch helps those between 10 - 20 who are just starting out.
 
Here are the problems.
 
1. Consumables. Their price needs to be kept low, but with the current 1 to 1 production thats hard to do except for those who craft all the time. Also since many foods are taken from one node, making a lot becomes a problem. If there were fayberry nodes you could get 3 from one vs. 1 berry out of 4 nodes. Potions are in the same boat assuming they ever become viable.
 
2. Taking a loss selling to npcs. Even if they include all the fuels used in make a final product that doesn't include things like water and raws. Selling to an npc has to be at a slight profit to cover things like water and make it possible to buy raws off a broker.
 
3. Selling outside your room. If the devs really want crafters to sell to players they must make it possible for crafters to sell to them. Leaving your pc on all the time or having a second account or staring at the wall of your inn room are not viable options and discourages the very thing they want to promote. Making players go down the path you have laid out for them, but then putting blocks in the way to keep them from being able to do the very thing you have told them they must do, is not a good idea.
 
4. The enjoyment of crafting. Player effort must count for more than it does. Right now crafting could be replaced with a single button and roll and it would be better than the current system.
 
5. The currect system needs to actually work. Many crafters ignore events because they have no real impact on the outcome of the recipe. Many crafter don't bother using buffs at all since the overall impact isn't that great.
 
6. Balance. Some tables have it easier than others in making a recipe. One table kills, yet none of the others do.
 
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Old 02-13-2005, 10:09 PM   #6
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I think loosing interdependency will be a big loss.  I'm an alchemist and make worts regularly.  I also make inks for most traders in my guild and sell them on the market from time to time.   It's work and not very good xp but the money is pretty good and that makes it worth while.  I should say the money was pretty good.  Now it seems to have become marginal....
 
I like the interdependency as much as I don't like it.  In most cases people have learned what intermediate products to produce that other classes need.  This wasn't the case when the game was brand new but it is now.  If I need vials or bottles I can go to the broker and almost always find them.  If I need something special the crafting chat channel is very active and I can get someone to make it for me.  Crafters have become social and work together.  I like that interdependency has built this dynamic back and forth trade market. 
 
However all is not good because as time passes and traders level up and the game matures something will disrupt this dynamic.  Lack of crafters at an teir will cause crafting to become a major problem.  When most crafters on a server are tier 5 new crafters will hit tier 3 and find that nobody is making the materials they need or if they are because the supply is so small the prices will the sky high.  Only crafting alts will have the money to buy these supplies and crafting will grind to a halt.
 
So the solution being proposed in this new patch looks like a good thing.  It won't kill the interdependence market because the fuels are expensive and may be easier for the main crafters to make.  This will make it worthwhile to sell supplies on the market and should lock in a certain profit level.  However, if a crafter can't find what he needs he has a fall back position where he can make his own supplies.
 
One assumption here is that tasks should pay out what a solo crafter needs to spend to make the item.  This is necessary so that in the later game a new player can still work on crafting and at least be cost neutral or even make a little bit of coin for his work.  This will also encourage people to buy player made supplies as that will increase the profit.
 
One last thing about this change that while people complain about is well overdue.  Thats fuel costs.  I know going from 6c to 20sp for fuel seems like a nightmare.  However, the system was frankly just broken as it was.  If we forget the who supply and demand thing and assume that all resources are free.  Then the cost to make fulginate breastplate really isn't any different than the cost to make a carbonate breastplate?  All thats different is what a crafter can charge based on supply and demand and what adventurers at that level can pay.  However a year from now there will be lots of lvl 50 crafters and lots of people dumping crafted equipment on the market.  Supply will be huge and cost to product is almost nothing.  So the only thing that will set the price to a particular number is what the vendor will pay.   So if the vendor pays a reasonable amount based on the level of the armor, then the crafter stands to make a ton of profit on each item producted.  If the vendor pays what it costs to make then the item will eventually be virtually worthless and everyone will be able to buy it for next to nothing. 
 
So by creating fuel costs Soe is putting a bottom line on what crafted armor can sell for and probably that will match what vendors will pay.  So it may cost 2gp to make a fulginate breastplate now.  This will be the 0 profit cost to sell this item.  This won't really hurt crafters that much because they can still make the item and sell it for a task at a profit or they can make it and sell it to players.  Players will need to buy armor and the game should enable adventurers to make enough money to buy supplies.  It might be tight and they might need to save a bit and maybe they can't buy a full suit the moment the level up but thats really the way it should be....
 
So after having thought quite a bit about these changes, beyond my initial OMG you changed it and are gonna ruin the game.  I've concluded that the devs have thought this through very well and in fact both of these changes play off each other in a positive way.  I think this will be a huge benefit to the economy and will make crafting viable for new players entering the game even a year from now.
 
Thank you SOE for making hard choices to ensure that this game is the best that it can be!!!
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Old 02-13-2005, 10:55 PM   #7
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I think the bottom line is that *generally* if you are not in a big guild or in a heavily cratfing guild, and you're a woodworker, carpenter, armorer, weaponsmith, or tailor, you probably are for this change. Because when you need studs, hilts, staves, and so on and can never find someone willing to make them, you get really frustrated by that.There are lots of people who benefit from the existing system and they will not like this change. There are lots of people who suffer from the existing system and will be glad for this change. I'm speaking specifically of dependency. The fuel change won't benefit anyone of course, it's just a "balance" change that no one "wants".My point is, debating on whether or not the dependency change is good or bad is pointless. It depends on where you stand before the change and certainly people have totally justifyable reasons for wanting or not wanting this update. I really want this update. But that doesn't preclude me from realizing this update will really screw some people over, too. There is no good or bad, there is no right or wrong. I can only hope that this change serves to please the majority since that's the best possible outcome, and none of us know who the majority is, so debating on that point would also be moot.To those who aren't arguing for or against the change but just want to vent: Go for it. Hey, everyone knows some people are going to get totally screwed on this deal. Alchemists being #1 on the chopping block, but far from the only ones. Just remember after all is said and done, many others will also be thrilled with this change, and their stance is as valid as your own.
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Old 02-14-2005, 12:07 AM   #8
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In my opinion the new system is workable, but SONY should make the new crafting skills much, much less effective than the existing class skills.
 
In other words crafters can have the ability to make their all their components, but they should be very, very bad at making components outside their normal class.
 
 
I think SONY is attempting something along this line, but I'm not sure they're making it difficult enough.  If they don't, then interdepency will definitely be ruined, and people who created alchemists for their ability to provide services to other classes (or to support their own characters) will have wasted their time completely.
 
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Old 02-14-2005, 12:44 AM   #9
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The biggest problem will be that crafting will be a losing item for the majority of crafters. Since, players are conditioned to only buy pristine items, anything less will cost money. Example, ink -- currentlly ink needs to be pristine otherwise it does not sell. Sages need it to be able to have a chance at APP IV spells. Inks which are not will be sold to the NPC to recover ONE fuel cost. This mean that at least 2 of the fuel costs will not be reimbursed. At most being able to sell an ink for a little less then 1 fuel cost means selling 2 pristine inks to recover the cost of ONE bad ink.
 
Now last night it took me 10 dye attempts to make 5 pristine inks. The unsellable inks were sold off to the NPC, which helped defray cost of purchasing the raws since, I do not have access to the needed harvesting areas as yet. Therefore in trying to level my character to the point where I can reduce the number of fails I will incur, means NOT being able to do my current Alchemist level of skills. In addition, I will more then likely NOT be able to help the Sages that I have been helping as I cannot be price competitive with those who botted their characters to level 50. I do expect to see massive increases in spell costs as the price of fuel will be the driving factor now.

Message Edited by Nerjin on 02-14-2005 09:07 AM

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Old 02-14-2005, 01:13 AM   #10
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From what I'm hearing not only are the costs of fuel being increased but the sellback price is actually being decreased. They don't want you to make a small profit from selling to vendor, instead they want to make it a small loss, only recouping part of the production cost. They have stated that they want the primary way to make money from player2player interactions, the problem with this is that the market is so saturated and the drops of certain things are so much better than crafted items that this is not realistic at the current time.
 
Coming from experience not only from my levels as you can see, but also having a 2nd account for 24/7 selling purposes, I can tell you for a fact that there is no economy on finished equipment at T5. Right now, I am the only person who sells T5 jewelery on the FP broker, my prices are extremely low and I sell every type of jewelery and every version of it (crude, shaped, reg, pristine). With my vendor being the only one that sells and with it being up 24/7 almost, I can tell you that on average I only sell about 10 pieces of jewelery a day, and this is with almost no competition. On top of this, there are certain pieces that I never sell, including pristine belts, necks, and earrings. The only pristine version of jewelery I can sell are rings and bracelets, I do sell alot more crude and shaped quality stuff though although its not a substantial amount. From an adventuring standpoint since I do have a high lvl adventurer that is in a large raid guild, drops are a large reason why T5 crafted items do not sell. The reason why pristine belts, earrings, and necks dont sell is because of the easy accessibility of drops that are far far superior to crafted stuff. FBSS obviously for the belt slot which really is not that hard of a heritage, there are quest rewards for ear and neck that you can actually finish before lvl 40 that provide much higher benefits as well.
 
You have recently stated that you will be adding improvements to crafted items, but until this happens it is certain that crafting will come to a grinding halt. People will undercut more than they already have because you can no longer vendor for profit, and people will stop crafting because there is no incentive to lvl to 50 because there is no profit. Now I know you guys (SOE team) do play the game as you have stated, but I really wonder how many of you craft, and thus not only craft but craft at a high lvl. It is apparent to almost anyone the sad state of the crafting economy and that the market is already saturated without these changes. If you do go through with these crafting changes, until you improve crafted items and find a way to balance introduction and removal of crafted items in the economy (make crafted items attunable) many crafters will stop crafting, and some I'm sure will quit.
 
I'm sure the devs are smart, its obvious programming is not an easy thing and takes much schooling, so I implore you to use your common sense and think about this. It doesn't take a genious to realize that even a few crafters at T5 can saturate the economy, esp. with the influx of dropped items and reselling that takes place. It is not uncommon to make 20, 40, even 60 pieces of equipment on a normal day, now multiply this by 10 which is way below the number of T5 crafters for each class, than multiply this by 7 days in a week. Taking an average of 40x10x7 and you come out to at least 2800 peices of equipment entering the market weekly. This equipment has no where to go anymore since you will be vendoring at a lost, and this equipment has no way to leave the market since adventurers can resell it when they are done. Lvling my jeweler I have probably sold 300+ peices of jewelery to the vendor, imagine if all that was in the economy right now, and that's just for the stuff I made. As I said earlier, I sell roughly 10 pieces a day with no competition, with this in mind the problem becomes obvious.
 
Hopefully since this is on test feedback someone from sony will read this. Will they do anything? probably not. Will some crafters quit? probably. Will the market collapse? [FaarNerfed!] right. Just my 2cents, hopefully someone at sony listens.
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:19 AM   #11
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I guess my biggest complaint is the HUGE change in fuel costs.  Ok I can understand the need to balance the system and making it viable for when we have huge amounts of level 50 crafters.  But the system as it is right now punishes those that are crafters only.  How in the world do they expect a level 30 crafter (artisan only no hunting skills) to come up with 3s, 84c per unit of fuel.  Now a change in the fuel system I can see yes, but why not set the system for something that all can accomplish and reach.  A good suggestion might be to change the units of fuel needed to make one recipe.
 
IE:
wild apple fizzlepop: to make right now uses 4 units of fuel.  One for apple juice, one for refined honey, one for honey fizzlepop and one for the finished wild apple fizzlepop.
 
 
Change this something to this effect:
 
Wild apple fizzlepop:  to make with new system uses 11 units of fuel.  Two for apple juice, one for refined honey, three for honey fizzlepop and 5 for finished wild apple fizzlepop.
 
This of course if just a general quick example no basis for cost ect.  But by doing that you keep the cost of fuel down to where the true artisan's can afford to by their traits but at the same time making the higher tier items a little more costly to make and there by balancing the system out.  Just a quick suggestion instead of making it almost impossible for there to be a character that is true artisan and that's it.

Message Edited by jai' on 02-13-2005 12:21 PM

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Old 02-14-2005, 01:53 AM   #12
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MaximumCarnage wrote:
 
4. The enjoyment of crafting. Player effort must count for more than it does. Right now crafting could be replaced with a single button and roll and it would be better than the current system.
 
5. The currect system needs to actually work. Many crafters ignore events because they have no real impact on the outcome of the recipe. Many crafter don't bother using buffs at all since the overall impact isn't that great.
 


I'd say you need to study the bufs in a bit more detail.  The proper use of bufs can ensure that you virtually always make pristine versions and that you do so fairly quickly.
 
I agree 100% crafter events need to have far more impact on crafting.  I totally ignore them as I'm doing my crafting because as things are now missing a buf has far more impact than missing the event.  I'd suggest that events should have significant negative effects.  50% health, 50% power, stuns, item looses 25% durability, item looses 25% progress.  These are a few outcomes that would encourage crafters to pay attention to events SMILEY
 
 
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