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Old 11-14-2006, 07:30 PM   #31
Rijacki

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If you are determined to see dirges as 100% gimped, that's all you will see.  If won't matter to you if anyone offers you proof otherwise, you would simply make excuses for why that proof was invalid.If you hate dirge, don't play one.  There's no reason to go on a campaign to convince other dirges and other groups/raids that they should totally give up on dirges, especially if those dirges/groups/raids offer you proof of effectiveness that you simply dismiss.
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Old 11-14-2006, 07:37 PM   #32
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The dirge's Agro magnification spell does 42% right? I think it's fair that the dirges should be able to claim 42% of the raid's total DPS as their own, because without that song the wizzzies/warlocks would have pulled agro and your raid would quite likely have wiped.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:05 PM   #33
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Strangely enough, for a class you think sucks so badly, I never have problems finding a group. /invite bard spam is nearly constant, even when Im grouped. When my guild runs a raid instance, Ive always got a front row seat.

I have so many raid friendly tools, I dont even bother watching parses. IMO my job is to get the debuffs in, and keep em in and to keep the buffs and rezzs up and flowing. Sure I dump my DPS when the buttons are up, but my prime focus isnt DPS.

Im there to look good, and make sure everyone else looks good too. Buff bot? hardly. DPSer? Damnnnn straight!

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Old 11-14-2006, 09:09 PM   #34
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Azmodiaz wrote:

 but my prime focus isnt DPS.



This is what I think a lot of people tend to lose sight of. As a Dirge (Bard) my job isnt DPS, its providing utility to the group that they wouldnt get if I wasnt there. If I wanted to be a DPser Id play on my warlock, but 100% of the time when asked which they want me to bring to the raid, theres no question...bring the dirge.

If I was unable to solo Id say yes give us a DPS bump, but I can solo those mobs I should be able to. Would I like more DPS? Hell yeah..Im not going to turn down more bang, but do I think my character is gimped because I cant beat a Wizard or Necro on the parse? No, Im a little cracked (some of us being more cracked than others ; ) but certainly not broken.

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Old 11-14-2006, 09:56 PM   #35
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O god yeah im burnt out on it i guess being a MT dirge will do that to u cuz u are just a buff bot : (
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:05 PM   #36
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I11FindYa wrote:O god yeah im burnt out on it i guess being a MT dirge will do that to u cuz u are just a buff bot : (
Find a new raid group if thats how youre treated.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:35 PM   #37
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Naw.  I love my dirge.  *huggles kurai*  *Kurai glares and stabs Salmastryon*The only thing I get tired of at times is people who seem to hate the Dirge and want to change it into something else instead of improving on what we have.  But,  then I look at other boards and feel much better. SMILEY
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:05 AM   #38
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I like my dirge.  It is a very fun and busy class to play.

I still stick by my dirge's motto, "If I've done everything right, no one will know I've done anything at all."  All work and no credit makes groups wonder what's going wrong after I'm gone.

The only thing that gets me down about the dirge is when you don't have the time to raid it can be very difficult to get a lot of quality dirge gear... and that can get boring.

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Old 11-15-2006, 01:50 AM   #39
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I11FindYa wrote:
O god yeah im burnt out on it i guess being a MT dirge will do that to u cuz u are just a buff bot : (
Actually, that's the one thing burning me out and boring me to tears.  There are 5 specific buffs that are "required" (you might be able to swap one of them on -some- fights) and so you set them and forget them.  They do very little to help you, they do very little to improve DPS in any way.  It's quite likely there's only you and the MT as the actual meleers.  CoB exists at that point to increase the MTs hate, not to give any more DPS.  It's paint by numbers to me (and I am sure it gets to be paint by numbers for the rest of the MT group constants).The ST group, though, even if the make-up is identical to the MT group, can be a bit more dynamic.  Switch out buffs even mid-fight if the ST needs that hate buff right away.  There is room, though, most of the time, for the DPS related buffs and a bit more dynamic action.The melee DPS group is also fun, switching buffs in and out depending on particular fights and actually reaching some decent DPS numbers with your own fighting (and watching the turbo charged numbers from the rest of the group).Some raiders (and/or raid leaders) seem to think it should be regarded as a reward or a privilege to be in the MT group, but, honestly, that's the best place for your lesser bard.  If one level 70 bard has all her debuffs master or adept III -and- nearly all her groups buffs as well (and not just the MT related ones) but your other level 70 bard has maybe only one or two masters and/or adept IIIs, would you really waste your stronger bard in the static MT group? especially if you were trying to maximise DPS with some DPS gaps (like Qeynos only classes)?In my opinion, a strong bard has a lot more to offer the raid as a whole in the ST or melee DPS group than in the MT group.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:36 AM   #40
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Rijacki wrote:

Actually, that's the one thing burning me out and boring me to tears.  There are 5 specific buffs that are "required" (you might be able to swap one of them on -some- fights) and so you set them and forget them.  They do very little to help you, they do very little to improve DPS in any way.  It's quite likely there's only you and the MT as the actual meleers.  CoB exists at that point to increase the MTs hate, not to give any more DPS.  It's paint by numbers to me (and I am sure it gets to be paint by numbers for the rest of the MT group constants).

The ST group, though, even if the make-up is identical to the MT group, can be a bit more dynamic.  Switch out buffs even mid-fight if the ST needs that hate buff right away.  There is room, though, most of the time, for the DPS related buffs and a bit more dynamic action.

The melee DPS group is also fun, switching buffs in and out depending on particular fights and actually reaching some decent DPS numbers with your own fighting (and watching the turbo charged numbers from the rest of the group).

Some raiders (and/or raid leaders) seem to think it should be regarded as a reward or a privilege to be in the MT group, but, honestly, that's the best place for your lesser bard.  If one level 70 bard has all her debuffs master or adept III -and- nearly all her groups buffs as well (and not just the MT related ones) but your other level 70 bard has maybe only one or two masters and/or adept IIIs, would you really waste your stronger bard in the static MT group? especially if you were trying to maximise DPS with some DPS gaps (like Qeynos only classes)?

In my opinion, a strong bard has a lot more to offer the raid as a whole in the ST or melee DPS group than in the MT group.



I disagree on most of your points, although I see where you're coming from.

The sole deciding factor on which dirge should be the MT dirge in my opinion is Percussion of Stone.  If you have this M1 and the other dirge doesn't, you should be stuck in the MT group.  It's just that important.

As for the less skilled dirge being in the MT group, I disagree with that also.  If the ST dirge does something stupid like trying to melee Chel'drak and eats a Cloud of Torpor and dies, it's not a big deal because your MT does not get affected.  If the MT dirge did this, your MT is at risk of being killed or losing aggro.

Another point is that in the majority of MT groups, it's 3 healers, a coercer, a dirge, and the tank.  Having only 2 melees in the group pretty much guarantees you the Coercer's DPS mod, which should put you at over 100% DPS mod because you should pretty much never not have Riana's running.  Since you have dual power regen, you can spam your CAs without worrying about running out of power, too. 

So if the above case is true, you should be doing equal or more DPS than the ST dirge as well as having more survivability than the ST dirge because you have 3 healers.

For switching buffs around, both dirges run the same buffs 99% of the time and switching buffs around mid fight lowers your DPS and provides minimal benefit at most.

-Kalll, 70 Dirge of Impulse on Mistmoore

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Old 11-15-2006, 03:27 AM   #41
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Danterus wrote:


Rijacki wrote:

Actually, that's the one thing burning me out and boring me to tears.  There are 5 specific buffs that are "required" (you might be able to swap one of them on -some- fights) and so you set them and forget them.  They do very little to help you, they do very little to improve DPS in any way.  It's quite likely there's only you and the MT as the actual meleers.  CoB exists at that point to increase the MTs hate, not to give any more DPS.  It's paint by numbers to me (and I am sure it gets to be paint by numbers for the rest of the MT group constants).The ST group, though, even if the make-up is identical to the MT group, can be a bit more dynamic.  Switch out buffs even mid-fight if the ST needs that hate buff right away.  There is room, though, most of the time, for the DPS related buffs and a bit more dynamic action.The melee DPS group is also fun, switching buffs in and out depending on particular fights and actually reaching some decent DPS numbers with your own fighting (and watching the turbo charged numbers from the rest of the group).Some raiders (and/or raid leaders) seem to think it should be regarded as a reward or a privilege to be in the MT group, but, honestly, that's the best place for your lesser bard.  If one level 70 bard has all her debuffs master or adept III -and- nearly all her groups buffs as well (and not just the MT related ones) but your other level 70 bard has maybe only one or two masters and/or adept IIIs, would you really waste your stronger bard in the static MT group? especially if you were trying to maximise DPS with some DPS gaps (like Qeynos only classes)?In my opinion, a strong bard has a lot more to offer the raid as a whole in the ST or melee DPS group than in the MT group.


I disagree on most of your points, although I see where you're coming from.

The sole deciding factor on which dirge should be the MT dirge in my opinion is Percussion of Stone.  If you have this M1 and the other dirge doesn't, you should be stuck in the MT group.  It's just that important.

As for the less skilled dirge being in the MT group, I disagree with that also.  If the ST dirge does something stupid like trying to melee Chel'drak and eats a Cloud of Torpor and dies, it's not a big deal because your MT does not get affected.  If the MT dirge did this, your MT is at risk of being killed or losing aggro.

Another point is that in the majority of MT groups, it's 3 healers, a coercer, a dirge, and the tank.  Having only 2 melees in the group pretty much guarantees you the Coercer's DPS mod, which should put you at over 100% DPS mod because you should pretty much never not have Riana's running.  Since you have dual power regen, you can spam your CAs without worrying about running out of power, too. 

So if the above case is true, you should be doing equal or more DPS than the ST dirge as well as having more survivability than the ST dirge because you have 3 healers.

For switching buffs around, both dirges run the same buffs 99% of the time and switching buffs around mid fight lowers your DPS and provides minimal benefit at most.

-Kalll, 70 Dirge of Impulse on Mistmoore


I neglected to mention specific buffs for the "lesser" dirge.  Yes, I would agree that PoS should be a deciding factor.  If both though, have PoS at adept III (I think I'd faint if I ever saw a Master of PoS) and Hyran's at MII (it's the rare dirge who doesn't), the other buffs are more beneficial to the raid not in the MT group.  I will repeat that I have nearly -all- my buffs and debuffs at adept III or Master I.  Of my buffs, only the poison/disease resist and my self buff are not upgraded yet (since we haven't hit the poison dragons yet and sadly, I get to cast my self buff a lot less than I want). Of the debuffs, the bow shot/root and the daze one (drawing a blank on names) aren't upgraded either since their usefullness in raids is severely lacking, but the rest are at least adept III with a few Masters (I suck on lotto rolls so I never have money).The coercer thing is a point for most, BUT, in a raid or guild that uses only Qeynos classes, you won't have a co-ercer.  If we did, it might be more interesting (and easier for most encounters).  Without a co-ercer, the dirge does not get the co-ercer buff and the drige is the mana battery.  If there is an illusionist in the group and the illusionist is running mana, it might be possible to run another song most of the time, but.. that's not a constant in our raids either.I agree if the "lesser" dirge is not smart enough to know when to be in the thick and when to back away, she shouldn't be in the MT group.  But, if you have relatively equal players with one having more experience and better gear/buffs more from playing longer than anything else (and you don't have a co-ercer because your raid only has Qeynos classes), the increased maneuverability and dynacism should be with the stronger player.  Plus.. there is a lot to be said for "mixing it up" to prevent people from getting bored or complacent.  Boredom is a big killer in raids.  If you have someone being little more than a buff-bot (and yes, at times I have felt that way on everything except the big nameds where I am the sole rezzer *laugh*), it gets b-o-r-i-n-g.  I don't want to be bored.  I want to be involved (but it's apparently not acceptable to think that).BTW, I love the class, I have, though, grown very tired of the attitudes toward it by some.

Message Edited by Rijacki on 11-14-2006 02:30 PM

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Old 11-15-2006, 03:39 PM   #42
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 I think people are failing to mention here we have some pretty bada$$ debuffs as well. I know many times as Im floating around my raid spamming rez and heal, my raid leader or MT will call for specific debuffs as he keeps an eye on the big mob.
 Honestly My main concern once I have the tanks buffed up is to drop those debuffs on incoming, and never let me off again. DPS is what I do while Im waiting on my debuff timers, or between rezs when its not going well.
 If I wanted to DPS, Id be an Assassin, and sporting that dope ninja mask. IMO instead of trying to compete with classes who are something Im not, I focus on what I can offer than noone else can.
 Besides, Im willing to bet my 2nd account that if you sat down on a raid and figured out what a Dirge contributes as a whole, ( after Debuffs, buffs and DPS ), on a raid why basis, youd discover were one of the highest DPS classes in the game. A Dirge who heavily debuffs and buffs, and keeps his CoB spammed does A WHOLE LOT of damage over 6 and 24 players. Add to that the fact that you can stop ALOT of incoming damage, freeing up your healers to conserve mana, and all sudden your a vital part of the system.
 Parses just dont reflect that, but good players, players who KNOW, recognize this. Thats why you always see any available Dirge with a front row seat on raids.
 We are that important, Period.
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Old 11-15-2006, 05:35 PM   #43
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Azmodiaz wrote:
 if you sat down on a raid and figured out what a Dirge contributes as a whole, ( after Debuffs, buffs and DPS ), on a raid why basis, youd discover were one of the highest DPS classes in the game. A Dirge who heavily debuffs and buffs, and keeps his CoB spammed does A WHOLE LOT of damage over 6 and 24 players.

I like to call it indirect DPS
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:21 PM   #44
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Tire of playing EQ, not necessarily the dirge. Nevertheless, I have switched to PvP for the last month or 2 and chose a troubador there, just for a change. Full group PvP is about the only thing I have done in EQII lately that has a high enough fun factor to keep me around.
 
That said, not many are happy with the attention bards have gotten in the last year or so. Everyone has a different perception, mine is that there are many critisisms that don't stand the light of day, and quite a few others that are very valid.
 
/shrug, this is coming from someone who got very bored with his PvE 70 bard and plays probably the weakest SOLO PvP class, but one that seems very valuable in a full PvP group.
 
Things like nerfing Bria's (tried on test) and then allowing you to spend AA's to get the lost regen points back (an not nerfing power regen of chanters) kinda gives you the mindset SOE has towards bards. 
 
Taking away are speed advantage? (ok, giving more advantage to other classes) That really doesn't make me feel the love, either.
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:17 PM   #45
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I really enjoy my dirge but it is starting to get frustrating that SOE doesn't even seem to have a Dev working on bards at all.  They reward our skills to everybody with each expansion and we just keep getting ninja nerfed as they balance the other classes that share our abilities.  We still own melee classes in solo pvp but its a rough time against skilled players from all other classes pretty much.  Luckily there aren't a whole lot of skilled players.
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