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Old 10-10-2011, 02:39 PM   #61
SageGaspar

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Good point, the shiny green numbers are better than straight damage reduction. Adrenaline was changed to a 50% heal instead of damage reduction and that's clearly OP because ACT says so, so let's change guardian stoneskins to heal 100% of the damage after they've taken it. Guardians will have the best burst healing in the game. It'll be really OP, trust me!

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Old 10-10-2011, 03:59 PM   #62
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SageGaspar wrote:

Good point, the shiny green numbers are better than straight damage reduction. Adrenaline was changed to a 50% heal instead of damage reduction and that's clearly OP because ACT says so, so let's change guardian stoneskins to heal 100% of the damage after they've taken it. Guardians will have the best burst healing in the game. It'll be really OP, trust me!

And instead of avoiding attacks, you take the hit then take healing after.

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Old 10-10-2011, 05:09 PM   #63
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Wasuna wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Im not really in the business of backing up Tal. But if you read above he was just venting at the Guards who were putting their nose in where it wasnt wanted. Showing them what the alternative is if they dont fix Crusader and Zerker heals - nerf bats to brawlers and guards. 

Its currently balanced well in the favour of avoidance / stoneskin tanks like brawlers and guards. Crusader and zerker survivability is terrible this expansion. Something needs to be done. Although I dont agree that it should be in the form of self healing, because that has always been terrible on any content that mattered. It was just a solo farming tool really.

Obviously the strikethrough issue needs to be sorted. And all tanks need access to the same quality / number of death saves and damage blocks.

Berserkers have stoneskins. They just want to use them so they can DW in Offensive. The people I raid with use a Berserker to stoneskin the rituals when a Guardian is not available.

People just need to userstand that they aren't babies playing with themselves. They are in a MMO and the game must be fair for all classes. Just becasue they WANT to have massive DPS, and WANT to heal themselves and WANT to be the best raid tank doesn't mean they get it all.

Children think that way.

THen how about making threat less reliant on dps? Because if that zerk isn't doing high dps, they aren't keeping aggro. Taunts are a joke.

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Old 10-10-2011, 07:04 PM   #64
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For paladins critting heals would help mostly for grpheal to help heal the grp and for the ward to reduce aoe-damage.

They wouldnt prevent oneshots, tho.

If people are convinced critting heals would be OP for heroic content, just add another debuff they wont crit if you are engaged in a heroic zone. /prob fixed

As I see the many complains forthcoming that mob X has critdebuff while just being a part in a raidfight, maybe a suboptimal solution - but way better as it is right now. <-- and this part means Devs would actually have to keep an eye on the stuff they design, for once. If heroic-mob within raidfight do NOT apply debuff - thxabunch

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Old 10-11-2011, 12:58 PM   #65
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[email protected] wrote:

THen how about making threat less reliant on dps? Because if that zerk isn't doing high dps, they aren't keeping aggro. Taunts are a joke.

I'm a Guardian. My DPS is trash even when I push my MA, STR and other things I can so I can get more DPS to help keep agro.

Spec your AA's properly, adorn properly, get the proper group mates and get the best gear you can. It's what I do and I guarantee my DPS is less than any equally geared berserker. Like I said, that is EXACTLY what I do so I'm not throwing stones.

To be honest I can't believe this comment was made. It just shows a lack of attention.

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Old 10-11-2011, 01:54 PM   #66
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Wasuna wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

THen how about making threat less reliant on dps? Because if that zerk isn't doing high dps, they aren't keeping aggro. Taunts are a joke.

I'm a Guardian. My DPS is trash even when I push my MA, STR and other things I can so I can get more DPS to help keep agro.

Spec your AA's properly, adorn properly, get the proper group mates and get the best gear you can. It's what I do and I guarantee my DPS is less than any equally geared berserker. Like I said, that is EXACTLY what I do so I'm not throwing stones.

To be honest I can't believe this comment was made. It just shows a lack of attention.

You also are one of the few tanks that have their own siphon and can lower the hate of their group a ton.  You are the most defensive tank (besides broken Brawlers that are being adjusted soon) and you produce more hate from taunts than any other Fighter as well.

Some Fighters are designed from their core to produce their hate from DPS, unlike you.  SKs and Zerks do not have siphons.  They do not have as much +hate gain they can self buff.  They do not have taunts on everything like some classes or self buffs that create reactive taunts.  They are 2 classes designed to DPS for their agro.  With current Fighter mechanics making DPS a joke for Fighters it makes the Fighters that are less reliant on DPS for agro much better at holding hate.  Furthermore, the very same DPS tanks were designed to be OT's that could be less reliant on others to still produce lots of hate....something that does not work in this game now.

Fighter DPS needs to be restored to SF levels for a much healthier game.  It definitely was not broken in SF and can simply proven by the low numbers of Fighters still used on raids and in heroic zones.  Restoring Fighter DPS to the right level will fix the big hate problems, especially for those Fighters that are supposed to be self sufficient on their own DPS for hate.

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Old 10-12-2011, 11:33 AM   #67
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Healing was also a good way to get Hate too. :/

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Old 10-12-2011, 11:58 AM   #68
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More crit bonus makes every other archtype better in every way, and Velious gear gives out crit bonus like candy.  The candy is not as sweet for my paladin, who is constantly reminded his heals are sugar-free.  That reason alone makes me unhappy with the status quo, even before I think about class parity issues. 

Simply put, my rewards are the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far. 

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Old 10-12-2011, 12:35 PM   #69
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Bruener wrote:

Wasuna wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

THen how about making threat less reliant on dps? Because if that zerk isn't doing high dps, they aren't keeping aggro. Taunts are a joke.

I'm a Guardian. My DPS is trash even when I push my MA, STR and other things I can so I can get more DPS to help keep agro.

Spec your AA's properly, adorn properly, get the proper group mates and get the best gear you can. It's what I do and I guarantee my DPS is less than any equally geared berserker. Like I said, that is EXACTLY what I do so I'm not throwing stones.

To be honest I can't believe this comment was made. It just shows a lack of attention.

You also are one of the few tanks that have their own siphon and can lower the hate of their group a ton.  You are the most defensive tank (besides broken Brawlers that are being adjusted soon) and you produce more hate from taunts than any other Fighter as well.

Some Fighters are designed from their core to produce their hate from DPS, unlike you.  SKs and Zerks do not have siphons.  They do not have as much +hate gain they can self buff.  They do not have taunts on everything like some classes or self buffs that create reactive taunts.  They are 2 classes designed to DPS for their agro.  With current Fighter mechanics making DPS a joke for Fighters it makes the Fighters that are less reliant on DPS for agro much better at holding hate.  Furthermore, the very same DPS tanks were designed to be OT's that could be less reliant on others to still produce lots of hate....something that does not work in this game now.

Fighter DPS needs to be restored to SF levels for a much healthier game.  It definitely was not broken in SF and can simply proven by the low numbers of Fighters still used on raids and in heroic zones.  Restoring Fighter DPS to the right level will fix the big hate problems, especially for those Fighters that are supposed to be self sufficient on their own DPS for hate.

Which is why you as a class do more DPS than Guardians. Like I said, spec yourself properly, get the right adornments and get the right support classes.

We all have limitations and if you think 15% from a Ranger is going to make up all the hate we need for grouping then your sorely mistaken. I have to do the same thing I'm saying you have to do so don't even try to say I'm adding anything special to your class for it to perform.

Just becasue you want more DPS doesn't need you need it or that it in any way shape or form will add anything but further inbalance to the fighters.

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Old 10-12-2011, 12:47 PM   #70
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[email protected] wrote:

More crit bonus makes every other archtype better in every way, and Velious gear gives out crit bonus like candy.  The candy is not as sweet for my paladin, who is constantly reminded his heals are sugar-free.  That reason alone makes me unhappy with the status quo, even before I think about class parity issues. 

Simply put, my rewards are the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far. 

Please tell me how crit bonus makes my Stoneskins as a Guardian any better? Guardians do crap for DPS and only have stoneskins past that.

Simply put, the Guardian rewards are just the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far.

Thisisn't a Guardian against everybody thread. It's the fact that I can make an example about my class just like you can and both are exactly the same so quit crying.

The fact is that we can all raid tank. If you want something else then let SoE know what your gonna give up for that extra you want and maybe they will consider it.

Of course I'm excluding the strikethrough thing right now. That's out of whack and we all know that has to be adjusted someway.

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Old 10-12-2011, 01:35 PM   #71
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Wasuna wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

More crit bonus makes every other archtype better in every way, and Velious gear gives out crit bonus like candy.  The candy is not as sweet for my paladin, who is constantly reminded his heals are sugar-free.  That reason alone makes me unhappy with the status quo, even before I think about class parity issues. 

Simply put, my rewards are the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far. 

Please tell me how crit bonus makes my Stoneskins as a Guardian any better? Guardians do crap for DPS and only have stoneskins past that.

Simply put, the Guardian rewards are just the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far.

Seems like apples and oranges to me.  Does crit bonus apply to other classes' stoneskin abilities?  I wouldn't know.  It sure does for heals if you're not a fighter, so that's why I feel like I'm getting less out of my CB than others.

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Old 10-12-2011, 01:45 PM   #72
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[email protected] wrote:

Wasuna wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

More crit bonus makes every other archtype better in every way, and Velious gear gives out crit bonus like candy.  The candy is not as sweet for my paladin, who is constantly reminded his heals are sugar-free.  That reason alone makes me unhappy with the status quo, even before I think about class parity issues. 

Simply put, my rewards are the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far. 

Please tell me how crit bonus makes my Stoneskins as a Guardian any better? Guardians do crap for DPS and only have stoneskins past that.

Simply put, the Guardian rewards are just the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far.

Seems like apples and oranges to me.  Does crit bonus apply to other classes' stoneskin abilities?  I wouldn't know.  It sure does for heals if you're not a fighter, so that's why I feel like I'm getting less out of my CB than others.

Yeah, apples/oranges.  I mean nevermind that Stoneskins by nature scale forever.  Just like % heals scale.

Heals not able to crit do not scale at all and never will even if they adjusted them to the amounts they should be at currently.  The more crit bonus available the less they will scale.  Healers pushing out 25-30k hps while a Fighter that is supposed to rely on heals to help mitigate is doing like 1200 hps.  Heck, in a raid the a Necro can double my heal parse.

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Old 10-13-2011, 11:16 AM   #73
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SK's don't rely on heals to mitigate spike damage. Paladins do with their ward and that has been adjusted several times to try and compensate them in line with other classes. SK heals criting would just allow them to power through zones likein SF doing multiple K of healing and having the healer DPS.

And don't give me that crap about the ward proc items. I had like 8 of them and even when I pulled like 5 groups of mobs there was NO way I could even begin to touch the HPS, by even a 3rd, that SK's did when I grouped with them on alts.

I kind of do agree that it's stupid for them to turn off a game mechanism forone sub-class but I looked like the best option. If not that then they would have had to nerf the heals to oblivion and then new fighetrs would have been seriously hurt as they leveled.

Just remmember, fighters don't heal, they tank. The classes that have a healing portion of their design were given healing based options to deal with spike damage while still not making them healers. Paladins aren't suppose to be good healer but they can use heal based wards as spike damage mitigation.

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Old 10-13-2011, 12:25 PM   #74
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[email protected] wrote:

Simply put, the Guardian rewards are just the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far.

Seems like apples and oranges to me.  Does crit bonus apply to other classes' stoneskin abilities?  I wouldn't know.  It sure does for heals if you're not a fighter, so that's why I feel like I'm getting less out of my CB than others.

You are getting plenty out of CB, you just aren't getting as much impact to your heals as say a healer does.  Nothing particularly wrong with that given the base values of your heals and the amount of potency available.  You still gain damage and hate from CB, and those being your primary role they make sense.

The previous poster was stating that other tank's defensive bonuses are not increased by CB.  He is suggesting that having fighter heals crit again would cause those few fighters that benefit from self heals defensive abilities to scale faster than those that get no benefit defensively from CB.

I personally am fine if fighter heals crit, but only if those heals are self only.  The reuse timers on them can be adjusted to scale the effectiveness to where class devs feel they should be.  It only becomes a class issue when the fighter is able to heal others nearly as well as a healer, or atleast as adequately as some content requires.  There are of course more overlapping PVP concerns, ones that aren't that healthy to discuss imio, as that game is so broken it doesn't matter.

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Old 10-13-2011, 12:38 PM   #75
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Simply put, the Guardian rewards are just the same as everyone else's but they do not go as far.

Seems like apples and oranges to me.  Does crit bonus apply to other classes' stoneskin abilities?  I wouldn't know.  It sure does for heals if you're not a fighter, so that's why I feel like I'm getting less out of my CB than others.

You are getting plenty out of CB, you just aren't getting as much impact to your heals as say a healer does.  Nothing particularly wrong with that given the base values of your heals and the amount of potency available.  You still gain damage and hate from CB, and those being your primary role they make sense.

The previous poster was stating that other tank's defensive bonuses are not increased by CB.  He is suggesting that having fighter heals crit again would cause those few fighters that benefit from self heals defensive abilities to scale faster than those that get no benefit defensively from CB.

I personally am fine if fighter heals crit, but only if those heals are self only.  The reuse timers on them can be adjusted to scale the effectiveness to where class devs feel they should be.  It only becomes a class issue when the fighter is able to heal others nearly as well as a healer, or atleast as adequately as some content requires.  There are of course more overlapping PVP concerns, ones that aren't that healthy to discuss imio, as that game is so broken it doesn't matter.

Only reason we parsed what we did in SF was mostly stonewill gear and the fact it had hundreds of mobs attacking us at once.

Stonewill 1/2/3= 10% Chance when damaged to ward caster for 2000+1400+750?

When 23 mobs were attacking you and only hitting for 460 damage per hit, the stonewill outhealed them pretty much.

Also, Shadowknights and Berserker heals are greatly magnified by how many mobs are attacking them, Shadowknights heals are better for each mob attacking him, reaver can proc multiple times if an AOE hits 8 targets, ect ect.  Berserkers get healed when they are hit, so when 23 weak mobs attack him, he will just outheal them.

___

But the biggest one was Stonewill and the Healing Proc Gear like Blood Ritual and Fatal Lifetap, which became very apparent when "GUARDIANS" which have NO healing abilitys, had a higher heal parse then healers on some fights.

___

in DoV, ONE mob hits you for 57000+, and multiple mobs have co-op strike. (Devs even explained how they SLOWED the attack speed of the mobs and made them hit harder.)

___

Of course, brawlers didn't get effected by the critical heal nerf because they're abilitys are all percent based and did not critical anyways, it only really effected 3 classes (Berserker/Paladin/Shadowknight), and currently these classes are the weakest in the Tanking Area.

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Old 10-13-2011, 12:55 PM   #76
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Wasuna wrote:

SK's don't rely on heals to mitigate spike damage. Paladins do with their ward and that has been adjusted several times to try and compensate them in line with other classes. SK heals criting would just allow them to power through zones likein SF doing multiple K of healing and having the healer DPS.

SKs have Lifetaps for the same reason Paladins have heals.  They were designed to compensate for lacking in other areas.  Having less mitigation and avoidance.  Now its still about having to try and compensate for taking more damage, having less damage reduction and definitely a lot less stoneskins.  Really the problem with Lifetaps is balancing them in one type of gameplay means they aren't balanced in another.  For that reason either a whole new mechanic needs to be implemented or prehaps allow Lifetaps to work differently depending on the type of encounter you are locked to.  I don't know if it is mechanically possibly but being locked into a raid encounter allows Fighter heals to crit again while being locked into heroic content doesn't.  Or, I liked Atans idea he once posted about allowing the Crusader to have a ward that is a % of their hp pool that could be filled up based on Lifetaps/Heals.  Basically a regen'ing ward based on actively Lifetapping that could only cap at like 20% of their HP.  The fact is though that Fighter heals without being able to crit will NEVER scale properly.

And don't give me that crap about the ward proc items. I had like 8 of them and even when I pulled like 5 groups of mobs there was NO way I could even begin to touch the HPS, by even a 3rd, that SK's did when I grouped with them on alts.

BS.  If you supposedly had 8 of them than you would know your HPS were extremely high and basically you would be proc'ing a ward constantly that would require very little other type of healing in heroic content.  I will state it again, just as I did when they nerfed Heal crits for Fighters.  I posted my numbers from parses while raid tanking 4RT.  I used a 2h to actually take more damage while I was tanking the encounter.  My actual Lifetap numbers were a joke and I think it worked out to something like less than 200 hps from Lifetaps while crit'ing that dropped at least in half once the nerf happened.  I had more HPS from 1 the group regen'ing ward, and than of course wards from gear.  Even than with heals crit'ing I still did a total less than 1/4 of what any healer was pushing out for HPS.

I kind of do agree that it's stupid for them to turn off a game mechanism forone sub-class but I looked like the best option. If not that then they would have had to nerf the heals to oblivion and then new fighetrs would have been seriously hurt as they leveled.

It was a quick fix not targetted correctly and hence a poor fix.  Everybody could tell you that the ward itemization was an issue along with the crazy Zerk % healing pulling mass mobs to heal up.  Right now in a raid getting wailed on, taking more damage than any other Fighter I can pull out about 1/10 of what a single healer in the group can with my Lifetaps.  Was running that EoW zone HM with a Mystic and Inq and tanking the second encounter with massive mobs and the Shaman was hitting like 16k+ HPS while the Inq was hitting like 8-10k HPS and my awesome SK lifetaps that are great in Heroic especially on mass AE mobs did a whopping 1.5k HPS.

Just remmember, fighters don't heal, they tank. The classes that have a healing portion of their design were given healing based options to deal with spike damage while still not making them healers. Paladins aren't suppose to be good healer but they can use heal based wards as spike damage mitigation.

What kind of statement is this?  What exactly do you call those green numbers that come up based on abilities that say HEAL for X amount?  Its this thinking that something should be completely exclusive to one type of class while other things cross lines like crazy that messes things up.  Healers do a lot more than Heal.  They cure, they use various abilities to keep their group alive, they buff groups, they debuff mobs, they DPS.  You could take away half of a healers healing ability and every raid would still need like 6 healers to bring all the utility they did, not to mention the mass amount of cures they provide.

What you keep failing to realize is how much all classes cross all lines in this game.

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:16 PM   #77
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Bruener wrote:

Yeah, apples/oranges.  I mean nevermind that Stoneskins by nature scale forever.  Just like % heals scale.

Heals not able to crit do not scale at all and never will even if they adjusted them to the amounts they should be at currently.  The more crit bonus available the less they will scale.  Healers pushing out 25-30k hps while a Fighter that is supposed to rely on heals to help mitigate is doing like 1200 hps.  Heck, in a raid the a Necro can double my heal parse.

Lifetap is pretty good, but Transfer Life is amazing, better than people realize...SMILEY

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:24 PM   #78
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1. SK's heal, Paladins ward against spike damage and also can heal. As many irriatating people say... L2P. It seems appropriate in this situation.

2. I parse eveerything. I know exactly what I'm talking about. Of course that was a year ago so those logs are gone. To bad your little baby argument about ward procs was wrong becasue SoE has ALL of the info and they nerfed your healing for a reason. I do agree that those darn ward procs were way to much. A Guardian is not suppose to be doing 1000 HPS and SK's aren't suppose to be doing 3000 HPS. Going into a zone, having the tank intentinally pull 4-5 groups, parse the highest in the group by 2-3 and out heal the healer by 3-4 times becasue the healer just flat didn't need to heal is frustrating to the maximum degree pleaying a dps or healer. Then the tank would just stand there waiting for all their abilities to come back up and do it again. Totally stupid and you just keep asking for that back. The only word I have for that thinking is stupid.

3. It was a fix that fit the problem. I can't fault the need for the fix but I do agree that it would have been better if they didn't bypass the game mechanics for a fix.

4. Your answer just shows that you only care for your class and say screw all the rest. I understand all class cross lines but what your failing to realize is that fighters cross the lines more than anybody else and you just keep asking for more. Play a freaking healer if you want to heal. It's why there are 24 classes. If fighters were supposet to heal then they would be called healers and not fighters. Pretty simple.

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:49 PM   #79
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Wasuna wrote:

1. SK's heal, Paladins ward against spike damage and also can heal. As many irriatating people say... L2P. It seems appropriate in this situation.

2. I parse eveerything. I know exactly what I'm talking about. Of course that was a year ago so those logs are gone. To bad your little baby argument about ward procs was wrong becasue SoE has ALL of the info and they nerfed your healing for a reason. I do agree that those darn ward procs were way to much. A Guardian is not suppose to be doing 1000 HPS and SK's aren't suppose to be doing 3000 HPS. Going into a zone, having the tank intentinally pull 4-5 groups, parse the highest in the group by 2-3 and out heal the healer by 3-4 times becasue the healer just flat didn't need to heal is frustrating to the maximum degree pleaying a dps or healer. Then the tank would just stand there waiting for all their abilities to come back up and do it again. Totally stupid and you just keep asking for that back. The only word I have for that thinking is stupid.

3. It was a fix that fit the problem. I can't fault the need for the fix but I do agree that it would have been better if they didn't bypass the game mechanics for a fix.

4. Your answer just shows that you only care for your class and say screw all the rest. I understand all class cross lines but what your failing to realize is that fighters cross the lines more than anybody else and you just keep asking for more. Play a freaking healer if you want to heal. It's why there are 24 classes. If fighters were supposet to heal then they would be called healers and not fighters. Pretty simple.

Well since you parse everything out so much why don't you go ahead and provide the HPS that your stoneskins as a Guardian heal during a raid.....

Unlike you btw I do have my parses from last year, I have my parses from 2008 as well.  I can provide any of my raid night parses showing the HPS that was actually happening.

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Old 10-13-2011, 04:01 PM   #80
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Bruener wrote:

Wasuna wrote:

1. SK's heal, Paladins ward against spike damage and also can heal. As many irriatating people say... L2P. It seems appropriate in this situation.

2. I parse eveerything. I know exactly what I'm talking about. Of course that was a year ago so those logs are gone. To bad your little baby argument about ward procs was wrong becasue SoE has ALL of the info and they nerfed your healing for a reason. I do agree that those darn ward procs were way to much. A Guardian is not suppose to be doing 1000 HPS and SK's aren't suppose to be doing 3000 HPS. Going into a zone, having the tank intentinally pull 4-5 groups, parse the highest in the group by 2-3 and out heal the healer by 3-4 times becasue the healer just flat didn't need to heal is frustrating to the maximum degree pleaying a dps or healer. Then the tank would just stand there waiting for all their abilities to come back up and do it again. Totally stupid and you just keep asking for that back. The only word I have for that thinking is stupid.

3. It was a fix that fit the problem. I can't fault the need for the fix but I do agree that it would have been better if they didn't bypass the game mechanics for a fix.

4. Your answer just shows that you only care for your class and say screw all the rest. I understand all class cross lines but what your failing to realize is that fighters cross the lines more than anybody else and you just keep asking for more. Play a freaking healer if you want to heal. It's why there are 24 classes. If fighters were supposet to heal then they would be called healers and not fighters. Pretty simple.

Well since you parse everything out so much why don't you go ahead and provide the HPS that your stoneskins as a Guardian heal during a raid.....

Unlike you btw I do have my parses from last year, I have my parses from 2008 as well.  I can provide any of my raid night parses showing the HPS that was actually happening.

Stone skins show unmitigated damage prevented.  HPS show mitigated damage healed.  Wholly 2 seperate things.

If I block an inc AOE with a stone skin you know the number is going to range 150-250k usually.  The same amount blocked by your stone skin.  Yes guardians have more stone skins than a crusader. 

The continued issue here remains how the game has changed.  Fighter heals were made an integral part of the game before raid mobs started scripting non stop certain AOE death.  All the crit heals in the world WILL NOT allow you to stay in and prevent that AOE from killing you.  The ability to critically heal will not prevent you from dying to the AOE.  Death prevents and stone skins will.   Maybe an additional proc on your SK stone skin would be more beneficial for tanking - it resets as fast as TOS if not faster.

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Old 10-13-2011, 04:49 PM   #81
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[email protected] wrote:

 Maybe an additional proc on your SK stone skin would be more beneficial for tanking - it resets as fast as TOS if not faster.

Which stoneskin is that?

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Old 10-13-2011, 08:59 PM   #82
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

 Maybe an additional proc on your SK stone skin would be more beneficial for tanking - it resets as fast as TOS if not faster.

Which stoneskin is that?

Hatedul Respite of course.  You also have mana wall which is less effective than a regular stonesin but effective nonetheless.  Both of these abilities will allow you to "sit in" 2 otherwise deadly AOEs just like a guardian can.   Depending on how fast mobs die you could joust the 3rd and be reset by 4th AOE.

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Old 10-14-2011, 08:09 AM   #83
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Seeing guards argumenting about critheals makes me laugh everytime - SKs/Paladins are a healing based class, if you still dont get this after all this years - stick to your stoneskin and leave the rest alone, tyvm.

Ideal situation would be that crusaders have an ability that reduces aoe-spike-damage so much they can have their heals kicking in afterwards to help heal up - but thats not the case atm.

And yes, if you are trolled by warriors over years + ignored by devs you start to think "screw the rest" - because theres no other way your issues get logic attention.

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Old 10-17-2011, 02:19 PM   #84
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[email protected] wrote:

Seeing guards argumenting about critheals makes me laugh everytime - SKs/Paladins are a healing based class, if you still dont get this after all this years - stick to your stoneskin and leave the rest alone, tyvm.

Ideal situation would be that crusaders have an ability that reduces aoe-spike-damage so much they can have their heals kicking in afterwards to help heal up - but thats not the case atm.

And yes, if you are trolled by warriors over years + ignored by devs you start to think "screw the rest" - because theres no other way your issues get logic attention.

If SK's and Paladins are healing based classes then why would you ever have the ability to tank a raid mob? Oh right! Your a fighter with the ability to heal SOME.

You have more DPS, needed or not. You have more healing ability which really opens up your ability to deal with heroic stuff. You have better raid utility with your raid and group buffs. Just becasue some of these things don't fit what you want now doesn't mean you didn't/don't take advantage of them.

As for getting more stone skins.. sure.. as soon as I get my DPS or my buffs increased in power. That's called balance. If you want more then I want more. Not that hard of a concept.

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Old 10-17-2011, 02:35 PM   #85
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Wasuna wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Seeing guards argumenting about critheals makes me laugh everytime - SKs/Paladins are a healing based class, if you still dont get this after all this years - stick to your stoneskin and leave the rest alone, tyvm.

Ideal situation would be that crusaders have an ability that reduces aoe-spike-damage so much they can have their heals kicking in afterwards to help heal up - but thats not the case atm.

And yes, if you are trolled by warriors over years + ignored by devs you start to think "screw the rest" - because theres no other way your issues get logic attention.

If SK's and Paladins are healing based classes then why would you ever have the ability to tank a raid mob? Oh right! Your a fighter with the ability to heal SOME.

You have more DPS, needed or not. You have more healing ability which really opens up your ability to deal with heroic stuff. You have better raid utility with your raid and group buffs. Just becasue some of these things don't fit what you want now doesn't mean you didn't/don't take advantage of them.

As for getting more stone skins.. sure.. as soon as I get my DPS or my buffs increased in power. That's called balance. If you want more then I want more. Not that hard of a concept.

As long as your guardians threat abilitys are lowered to 75% of there effectiveness.  That's called balance. If you want more then I want more. Not that hard of a concept.

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Old 10-17-2011, 07:49 PM   #86
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Wasuna wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Seeing guards argumenting about critheals makes me laugh everytime - SKs/Paladins are a healing based class, if you still dont get this after all this years - stick to your stoneskin and leave the rest alone, tyvm.

Ideal situation would be that crusaders have an ability that reduces aoe-spike-damage so much they can have their heals kicking in afterwards to help heal up - but thats not the case atm.

And yes, if you are trolled by warriors over years + ignored by devs you start to think "screw the rest" - because theres no other way your issues get logic attention.

If SK's and Paladins are healing based classes then why would you ever have the ability to tank a raid mob? Oh right! Your a fighter with the ability to heal SOME.

You have more DPS, needed or not. You have more healing ability which really opens up your ability to deal with heroic stuff. You have better raid utility with your raid and group buffs. Just becasue some of these things don't fit what you want now doesn't mean you didn't/don't take advantage of them.

As for getting more stone skins.. sure.. as soon as I get my DPS or my buffs increased in power. That's called balance. If you want more then I want more. Not that hard of a concept.

Fighter DPS right now is junk.  Its like being the king of the midgets, except your not king since Brawlers are so OP'd in the game.

Guards have more utility for their group/raid than any other Fighter class.

Heals are meant to offset not having a million stoneskins like some classes.  Only heals don't work.

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Old 10-17-2011, 10:25 PM   #87
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Bruener wrote:

Fighter DPS right now is junk.  Its like being the king of the midgets, except your not king since Brawlers are so OP'd in the game.

Guards have more utility for their group/raid than any other Fighter class.

Heals are meant to offset not having a million stoneskins like some classes.  Only heals don't work.

I disagree.  Looking at the buffs on my SK, Pally, Bruiser, and Guardian the guardian does not have more utility for their grp than anyother class.

In example, If we assign 1 point to each grp and temp buff and 2 points for Raid buffs then SKs and guardians TIE for grp/raid utility.  If we count DPS desirable Buffs (potency, damage procs, casting speeds, etc) SKs win hands down over guardians using the same scoring system.

Furthermore an SK can fit the role of MT, OT, and Mage grp support as a third tank.  Guardians Fit MT/OT only bringing nothing to a mage or melee DPS group worth taking up the space another tank would do better in.

Paladins run much higher scores in both basic buffs brought to the table and desirable grp/raid buffs due to same basic buff structure as SKs and having rez/heal/ward abilities (not raid capable heals but abilities nonetheless). 

All this aside critical healing will not improve any tanks ability to fill a raid slot nor does it directly bear on a tanks ability to hold aggro when tanking or being able to pump acceptable DPS when not tanking (which I agree with you perfectly well on - a tank not tanking is wasting a spot).  Critical healing though as it once existed does not fill a raid tanks basic prerequisites for tanking abilities - hate generation and survivability from the ever increasing # of one shot abilities mobs are getting. 

                      Raid or grp buffs                        Pot/DPS enhancers

Shadowknights =   11                                               5

Guardians          =  11                                                3

Shadow Knight

Unholy Hunger         + damage/heal proc                          GRP

Unholy Strength       + STA, + potency, + spell damage    RAID

Pledge of Armor        + Mitigation                                      Other

Death March             +Str, Int, AE CC immune,                  GRP

                                 + casting speed, + DPS

Battle Leadership     + Weapon Skills                                 GRP

Auro of Leadership    + Grp rege ward                               GRP

Fearless Morale         + Potency target fear immune          GRP/Self

Zealous Smite            Grp Cure + encounter nuke             GRP

Crusaders Faith         + 5% Grp Strike Through                 GRP

         wAA                   5% to hit

                                   -5% Spell resistability

Unholy Blessing         Single target grp damage ward       other/raid

 Guardian

Call to Arms             + Weapon Skills                                   GRP

          w/ AA             + 5% chance to hit

Call of Shielding       + Health                                                RAID

      w/AA                  + Defense

Battle Tactics           + Health                                                 GRP

Battle Cry                + Mitigation/temp                                  GRP

Guardian Sphere     +50% stone skin proc                           GRP

Sentry Watch          + Grp death Save                                  GRP

Shoulder the Burden        15% Hate Transfer                       Grp target

Improved Moderation      5% hate Gain                                GRP

                                        -25% grp hate reduction

Enhanced Moderat       +5% CB - hate                                 GRP

           w/AA

Got Your Back                   Fighter AOE Blocker                        RAID

Feel free to point out errors as anyone sees them - I have no desire to skew the discussion but only to advance it.

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Old 10-17-2011, 10:54 PM   #88
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Abilities that are junk should be removed from the list.  People only care about useful utility and the fact is Guards have the best utility out of Fighters.  Some just don't recognize it because it is defensive utility instead of offensive utility.

I mean you can go to the Guard boards and before the AA changes they would all tell you how Got Your Back wasn't great even though it is a fantastic ability to be able to AE avoid those other tanks so they can stay in AE rounds.

BTW, nobody is saying Guards have too much utility.  Its stating that Guards lack utility compared to other Fighters is what is getting old.  They don't, period.

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Old 10-17-2011, 11:45 PM   #89
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Berserkers get healed when they are hit, so when 23 weak mobs attack him, he will just outheal them.

This line made me chuckle because my zerker's heal buff is sooooo... weak. and laughable. And might as well not be there. :/

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Old 10-17-2011, 11:51 PM   #90
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Bruener wrote:

Wasuna wrote:

SK's don't rely on heals to mitigate spike damage. Paladins do with their ward and that has been adjusted several times to try and compensate them in line with other classes. SK heals criting would just allow them to power through zones likein SF doing multiple K of healing and having the healer DPS.

SKs have Lifetaps for the same reason Paladins have heals.  They were designed to compensate for lacking in other areas.  Having less mitigation and avoidance.  Now its still about having to try and compensate for taking more damage, having less damage reduction and definitely a lot less stoneskins.  Really the problem with Lifetaps is balancing them in one type of gameplay means they aren't balanced in another.  For that reason either a whole new mechanic needs to be implemented or prehaps allow Lifetaps to work differently depending on the type of encounter you are locked to.  I don't know if it is mechanically possibly but being locked into a raid encounter allows Fighter heals to crit again while being locked into heroic content doesn't.  Or, I liked Atans idea he once posted about allowing the Crusader to have a ward that is a % of their hp pool that could be filled up based on Lifetaps/Heals.  Basically a regen'ing ward based on actively Lifetapping that could only cap at like 20% of their HP.  The fact is though that Fighter heals without being able to crit will NEVER scale properly.

And don't give me that crap about the ward proc items. I had like 8 of them and even when I pulled like 5 groups of mobs there was NO way I could even begin to touch the HPS, by even a 3rd, that SK's did when I grouped with them on alts.

BS.  If you supposedly had 8 of them than you would know your HPS were extremely high and basically you would be proc'ing a ward constantly that would require very little other type of healing in heroic content.  I will state it again, just as I did when they nerfed Heal crits for Fighters.  I posted my numbers from parses while raid tanking 4RT.  I used a 2h to actually take more damage while I was tanking the encounter.  My actual Lifetap numbers were a joke and I think it worked out to something like less than 200 hps from Lifetaps while crit'ing that dropped at least in half once the nerf happened.  I had more HPS from 1 the group regen'ing ward, and than of course wards from gear.  Even than with heals crit'ing I still did a total less than 1/4 of what any healer was pushing out for HPS.

I kind of do agree that it's stupid for them to turn off a game mechanism forone sub-class but I looked like the best option. If not that then they would have had to nerf the heals to oblivion and then new fighetrs would have been seriously hurt as they leveled.

It was a quick fix not targetted correctly and hence a poor fix.  Everybody could tell you that the ward itemization was an issue along with the crazy Zerk % healing pulling mass mobs to heal up.  Right now in a raid getting wailed on, taking more damage than any other Fighter I can pull out about 1/10 of what a single healer in the group can with my Lifetaps.  Was running that EoW zone HM with a Mystic and Inq and tanking the second encounter with massive mobs and the Shaman was hitting like 16k+ HPS while the Inq was hitting like 8-10k HPS and my awesome SK lifetaps that are great in Heroic especially on mass AE mobs did a whopping 1.5k HPS.

Just remmember, fighters don't heal, they tank. The classes that have a healing portion of their design were given healing based options to deal with spike damage while still not making them healers. Paladins aren't suppose to be good healer but they can use heal based wards as spike damage mitigation.

What kind of statement is this?  What exactly do you call those green numbers that come up based on abilities that say HEAL for X amount?  Its this thinking that something should be completely exclusive to one type of class while other things cross lines like crazy that messes things up.  Healers do a lot more than Heal.  They cure, they use various abilities to keep their group alive, they buff groups, they debuff mobs, they DPS.  You could take away half of a healers healing ability and every raid would still need like 6 healers to bring all the utility they did, not to mention the mass amount of cures they provide.

What you keep failing to realize is how much all classes cross all lines in this game.

Scouts dont heal, they dps! But I have two lifetaps...

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