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Old 04-29-2011, 03:33 PM   #1
S3V3R3NC3

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As of gu 60, players who are mentored can now "defend" themselves if attacked by players.

I see a major potential problem with this and I was hoping the devs could fill in the blanks for me.  If say you have a 5 man group of 70's and a mentored lvl 90 warlock, will the group of 70s still be able to engage other groups of 70s? Or will they also now only be able to engage if attacked first?

It seems to me that if this group was still able to engage they would have such an unfair advantage that it would truly ruin any sort of locked pvp as mentored players are godlike when compared with unmentored players.

The most common situation I foresee is that a group would have a mentored person off in the distance awaiting his group to engage another group, at this point the said mentored person would rush in and destroy the opposition with ease.  Even if the mentored person could not engage until attacked this would not take long as the opposing group would hit this player after using any type of aoe.

Now if this was the case the other group would have to not use any aoes which would still give such an unfair advantage that locked pvp would soon be in the hands say a locked sk with 5 lvl 90s mentored or some other greasy combination.

The only solution I see (and I hope this is how it already works) is that if a group has a mentored player in it, the entire group can no longer attack anyone until attacked.

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Old 04-29-2011, 03:36 PM   #2
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Or instead of adding this exploit bait, leave mentoring alone so people dont even get the idea of thinking about what way it WILL be exploited....

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Old 04-29-2011, 03:51 PM   #3
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Agreed either get rid of this new mentoring idea or just remove level ranges altogether because it will have the same outcome regardless

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Old 04-29-2011, 03:59 PM   #4
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The biggest problem I see is mentored healers healing in lowbie PVP.But even this won't be as big a problem as I originally thought, since they'll be stuck with PVP Crit Bonus and PVP Potency, which will scale down even further when mentored from the 60-70% they'll have .

That's about it.

Most of the other problems could be fixed by simply tagging those characters (and ones grouped with mentored toons) as if they were grouped with a higher level. I'm not sure if that can be done without having issues with carnage flagging.

I'm not against this idea at all, but I'm also not necessarily fighting for it. I didn't think it was a necessary change, but I see why it happened. Too many people complain about being helpless at low levels.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:01 PM   #5
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Mentored being able to attack back seems like a bad idea. But I think it sucks that anyone chronomentored is at the mercy of non mentored people in zones - and hate that unmentored can attack mentored and there is basically nothing you can do if they are closest enough in level to you to kill you, etc. My thought was to make it impossible to hit a mentored player but then that means mentored players have advantages over farming names, etc. It all comes down to who you think should have control of the zone - unmentored or mentored.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:08 PM   #6
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In a way, giving mentored players the ability to attack back pretty much did give them immunity in PVP.Maybe not now as much as it would have before they nerfed raid gear and whatnot, but to a certain degree it still will.

Most players won't be able to take down someone mentored down. It's just not going to happen with their higher level gear (even scaled) and abilities someone else won't have yet. So why attack them at all? Just let them roam around and kill everyone they want to kill.

Even if they're wearing raid gear and are effectively worthless in PVP, they'll still dwarf anyone lowbie players HP by a lot, and take a long time to kill - meanwhile they could just walk away or even still probably kill the lowbie while wearing worthless raid gear.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:15 PM   #7
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The only possible solution I can see, as I stated before, is that if a mentored person is in group, that entire group can no longer attack until attacked (similiar to now if you have a 90 in a group of 70s).  Otherwise this WILL be exploited and I guarantee all locked pvp will be ruined due to mentored 90's destroying every other tier in the game.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:17 PM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:

The only possible solution I can see as I stated before is that if a mentored person is in group, that entire group can no longer attack until attacked (similiar to now if you have a 90 in a group of 70s).  Otherwise this WILL be exploited and I guarantee all locked pvp will be ruined due to mentored 90's destroying every other tier in the game.

If you killed a mentored player, or vice versa, would that count as a kill towards your fame? If not, then I don't think it would destroy it...

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:28 PM   #9
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Yes it still will because the locked players in the group would still get fame from your group.

This is what will happen:

4-5 actual locked players, 1-2 mentored 90s

-locked players engage, wait for other locked group to engage

-after the fight begins, the 1-2 mentored 90s will come in, destroy the other group

-fame for the 4-5 locked players, fame loss for the opposite group with 6 locked players.

Next fight:

-4-5 actual locked players, 1-2 mentored 90s team 1

-3-4 actual locked players, 2-3 mentored 90s team 2

Fight 3:

-1 locked player 5 mentored 90s

-1 locked player 5 mentored 90s

end of lvl locking.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:41 PM   #10
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Fight 4:

- 1 self mentored 90 meets 1 - 6 locked or normally leveling players

- players engage - all die horribly or the 90 follows em around disrupting their gameplay massively cause they have to avoid accidentally attacking the mentored amongst the 20 targets on them

This change is really lame. i've never had a problem that people could attack me when mentored and i couldnt fight back. the trade for that incapicity to fight back was the immense OP'ness you gained when mentored. the advantage of being able to make low lvl stuff con, give exp, aa and loot was enough incentive to take the "risk" of getting engaged.

Because that "risk" was laughable and a minor annoyance at best.

Now if a bunch of 3 friends leveling up enter a dungeon where a 90 crusader mentored to lvl 70 is wreckin havoc and annihilating the entire zone, what can they do ? nothing, suck it up and go somewhere else....yeah great change indeed and totally needed.

Good job on bending over to the crying crowd

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:42 PM   #11
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Rothgar or any of the devs, could you please fill us in on the specifics of this situation!

I dont have access to the required test players to determine it for myself!

All I want to know is if a group with mentored players in it can attack.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:46 PM   #12
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So what if they cant?

I mean just have a mentored 90 outside the zone and wait for the group to enage then zone in and wipe the floor with the mentored players. This isnt new we have seen it all before, worst pvp change in the history of eq2 right here folks.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:04 PM   #13
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The mentoring change is to the player being able to defend.

All other aspects of mentoring remain the same:  

  • A non agro, even con player is mentored so attacking them is up to you.  
  • A mentored player cannot engage another player, so they can just sit around hoping someone hits them.
  • A mentored player in a group cannot engage another player, so they still have to wait to be attacked.
  • A group with a mentored player cannot engage another, so unless your group gets attacked, they can't attack.
  • A mentored player can get attacked by someone of the mentored level up to the actual level, so 90s can kill them
  • In addition, the fame will not be granted if you are grey or red (actual level) to the target. 

The change just adds an incentive for players to help those lower level players in open/contested zones.   The change does nothing for those that already mentor people and go into instances where no one can see them. 

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:07 PM   #14
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Olihin wrote:

The mentoring change is to the player being able to defend.

All other aspects of mentoring remain the same:  

  • A non agro, even con player is mentored so attacking them is up to you.  
  • A mentored player cannot engage another player, so they can just sit around hoping someone hits them.
  • A mentored player in a group cannot engage another player, so they still have to wait to be attacked.
  • A group with a mentored player cannot engage another, so unless your group gets attacked, they can't attack.
  • A mentored player can get attacked by someone of the mentored level up to the actual level, so 90s can kill them
  • In addition, the fame will not be granted if you are grey or red (actual level) to the target. 

The change just adds an incentive for players to help those lower level players in open/contested zones.   The change does nothing for those that already mentor people and go into instances where no one can see them. 

Olihin

Definitely some new changes to mentoring in that list there.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:11 PM   #15
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Thank you Olihin as long as this is true there shouldn't be very many problems!

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:12 PM   #16
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That appears to cover most of the bases, except for the mentored player in group waiting out side the zone for his group to engage....

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:37 PM   #17
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[email protected] wrote:

That appears to cover most of the bases, except for the mentored player in group waiting out side the zone for his group to engage....

Right...good point, Ohlin what about this situation?

This seems a lot more difficult to avoid and to keep it fair the only thing I could see would be:

-If a mentored player zones into a zone after a fight has begun, then that player is immune to damage or cannot fight back

-or the group immediatly can no longer gain rewards for winning the fight (you could put a message over their screen saying, sorry you greasy pos no updates for you).

But even then, different groups fighting on the same team as the greasy group that just zoned in a mentored player could still gain rewards for the opposing team dying.

Any solutions for this?

I really see the only solution being that if a mentored person zones into a zone after a fight has begun that they can not fight back just like it used to be.

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Old 04-30-2011, 02:20 PM   #18
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Personally I LIKE these changes to mentoring. It gives us a chance to finally be able to help out lower level guildies and not be sitting defenceless ducks. Finally, if someone attacks us while I am mentored on a higher level toon helping a guildie in a dungeon I can fight back, or heal or just kill the little annoyance.

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Old 05-01-2011, 08:19 AM   #19
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The change seems reasonable and well thought out. I like it.

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Old 05-01-2011, 12:06 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

Personally I LIKE these changes to mentoring. It gives us a chance to finally be able to help out lower level guildies and not be sitting defenceless ducks. Finally, if someone attacks us while I am mentored on a higher level toon helping a guildie in a dungeon I can fight back, or heal or just kill the little annoyance.

It is beyond laughable to hear this, that is to say, to think that what you are saying will be the reality of the situation.

The amount of "pvp" you find while questing and hitting dungeons that are not max level is nearly extinct, in fact the only pvp you will find out of max level (99.99999% of the time) will be from level lockers.  These level lockers all filter into specific areas to fight each other. The majority of us have very little interest in killing random people leveling up in zek or fallen gate.

So what will happen? 1 time out of 10000 this change will be used for its intended purpose, which is to maybe defend yourself against a barrage lvl locked attacks, while the other 9999 times will be from lvl 90s mentored to a specific level with the purpose of giving an unfair advantage to a level locking fight.

So I am truely sorry that every 6 months you have to run away from someone attacking you in pvp while you are mentored, it must eat you up enough to unsubscribe, but for the rest of us who only play this game at certain levels (for an array of reasons that I will not discuss here) this will completely screw us.

I will restate this, summarized for people who wont read the aforementioned due to TL;DR

So:

- mentored players groups will also be unable to attack until attacked

- mentored players are completely immune to ALL aoes until attacked

- groups are not able to add mentored players to their group, regardless of which zone they are in, if they are engaged in pvp combat or even attacked in pvp combat

- if a group has a mentored player in it but in a different zone, that group still flags as having a mentored player in it

Can I please get a dev to respond to this and confirm/deny on the implementation of these 4 changes.

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Old 05-01-2011, 03:45 PM   #21
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Olihin wrote:

The mentoring change is to the player being able to defend.

All other aspects of mentoring remain the same:  

  • A non agro, even con player is mentored so attacking them is up to you.  
  • A mentored player cannot engage another player, so they can just sit around hoping someone hits them.
  • A mentored player in a group cannot engage another player, so they still have to wait to be attacked.
  • A group with a mentored player cannot engage another, so unless your group gets attacked, they can't attack.
  • A mentored player can get attacked by someone of the mentored level up to the actual level, so 90s can kill them
  • In addition, the fame will not be granted if you are grey or red (actual level) to the target. 

The change just adds an incentive for players to help those lower level players in open/contested zones.   The change does nothing for those that already mentor people and go into instances where no one can see them. 

Olihin

A problem still is with ae auto attacks... with ae auto attacks you can hit red players, mentored players, etc and pull them into combat.  It has happened a lot.  A level 70sk sits by the wf tower in antonica, and once people's ae autos hit him he starts killing them and their group.

The best solution imo would be to just make mentored players immune to pvp.  That way you don't have the possibility of exploiting it, and mentored players aren't at the mercy of unmentored players.

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Old 05-01-2011, 04:32 PM   #22
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[email protected] wrote:

Olihin wrote:

The mentoring change is to the player being able to defend.

All other aspects of mentoring remain the same:  

  • A non agro, even con player is mentored so attacking them is up to you.  
  • A mentored player cannot engage another player, so they can just sit around hoping someone hits them.
  • A mentored player in a group cannot engage another player, so they still have to wait to be attacked.
  • A group with a mentored player cannot engage another, so unless your group gets attacked, they can't attack.
  • A mentored player can get attacked by someone of the mentored level up to the actual level, so 90s can kill them
  • In addition, the fame will not be granted if you are grey or red (actual level) to the target. 

The change just adds an incentive for players to help those lower level players in open/contested zones.   The change does nothing for those that already mentor people and go into instances where no one can see them. 

Olihin

A problem still is with ae auto attacks... with ae auto attacks you can hit red players, mentored players, etc and pull them into combat.  It has happened a lot.  A level 70sk sits by the wf tower in antonica, and once people's ae autos hit him he starts killing them and their group.

The best solution imo would be to just make mentored players immune to pvp.  That way you don't have the possibility of exploiting it, and mentored players aren't at the mercy of unmentored players.

Or they could fix AE auto, since it breaks mezzes and such in PVE as well.

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Old 05-02-2011, 12:42 AM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

The biggest problem I see is mentored healers healing in lowbie PVP.

They can already do this.. group heals and group wards work all day long... nothing new there.

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Old 05-02-2011, 12:43 AM   #24
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[email protected] wrote:

Personally I LIKE these changes to mentoring. It gives us a chance to finally be able to help out lower level guildies and not be sitting defenceless ducks. Finally, if someone attacks us while I am mentored on a higher level toon helping a guildie in a dungeon I can fight back, or heal or just kill the little annoyance.

+1

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Old 05-17-2011, 10:33 AM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Personally I LIKE these changes to mentoring. It gives us a chance to finally be able to help out lower level guildies and not be sitting defenceless ducks. Finally, if someone attacks us while I am mentored on a higher level toon helping a guildie in a dungeon I can fight back, or heal or just kill the little annoyance.

+1

and also.. 300aa at lvl 30 anyone? sure its "balanced and scaled" /sarcasm off ..

with mentored players being able to attack it will be an endless series of attempted exploits, face it - if ppl can do it - they will do it 

mentored players should always be sitting ducks, they know the risk they take - end of story

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Old 05-19-2011, 07:55 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

Olihin wrote:

The mentoring change is to the player being able to defend.

All other aspects of mentoring remain the same:  

  • A non agro, even con player is mentored so attacking them is up to you.  
  • A mentored player cannot engage another player, so they can just sit around hoping someone hits them.
  • A mentored player in a group cannot engage another player, so they still have to wait to be attacked.
  • A group with a mentored player cannot engage another, so unless your group gets attacked, they can't attack.
  • A mentored player can get attacked by someone of the mentored level up to the actual level, so 90s can kill them
  • In addition, the fame will not be granted if you are grey or red (actual level) to the target. 

The change just adds an incentive for players to help those lower level players in open/contested zones.   The change does nothing for those that already mentor people and go into instances where no one can see them. 

Olihin

A problem still is with ae auto attacks... with ae auto attacks you can hit red players, mentored players, etc and pull them into combat.  It has happened a lot.  A level 70sk sits by the wf tower in antonica, and once people's ae autos hit him he starts killing them and their group.

The best solution imo would be to just make mentored players immune to pvp.  That way you don't have the possibility of exploiting it, and mentored players aren't at the mercy of unmentored players.

I just checked in a fix for the AE autoattacks. They will no longer hit mentored players, or players grouped with mentored players unless they are already able to hit you. It should be in the next test server update, please try it out on the test server!

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Old 05-19-2011, 08:04 PM   #27
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Olihin wrote:

The mentoring change is to the player being able to defend.

All other aspects of mentoring remain the same:  

  • A non agro, even con player is mentored so attacking them is up to you.  
  • A mentored player cannot engage another player, so they can just sit around hoping someone hits them.
  • A mentored player in a group cannot engage another player, so they still have to wait to be attacked.
  • A group with a mentored player cannot engage another, so unless your group gets attacked, they can't attack.
  • A mentored player can get attacked by someone of the mentored level up to the actual level, so 90s can kill them
  • In addition, the fame will not be granted if you are grey or red (actual level) to the target. 

The change just adds an incentive for players to help those lower level players in open/contested zones.   The change does nothing for those that already mentor people and go into instances where no one can see them. 

Olihin

A problem still is with ae auto attacks... with ae auto attacks you can hit red players, mentored players, etc and pull them into combat.  It has happened a lot.  A level 70sk sits by the wf tower in antonica, and once people's ae autos hit him he starts killing them and their group.

The best solution imo would be to just make mentored players immune to pvp.  That way you don't have the possibility of exploiting it, and mentored players aren't at the mercy of unmentored players.

Or they could fix AE auto, since it breaks mezzes and such in PVE as well.

I just tried this out on test and AE autoattacks were not breaking mezzes. Is there a specific case where this happens? Maybe a specific mez spell etc?

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Old 05-19-2011, 09:54 PM   #28
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Maevianiu wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Olihin wrote:

The mentoring change is to the player being able to defend.

All other aspects of mentoring remain the same:  

  • A non agro, even con player is mentored so attacking them is up to you.  
  • A mentored player cannot engage another player, so they can just sit around hoping someone hits them.
  • A mentored player in a group cannot engage another player, so they still have to wait to be attacked.
  • A group with a mentored player cannot engage another, so unless your group gets attacked, they can't attack.
  • A mentored player can get attacked by someone of the mentored level up to the actual level, so 90s can kill them
  • In addition, the fame will not be granted if you are grey or red (actual level) to the target. 

The change just adds an incentive for players to help those lower level players in open/contested zones.   The change does nothing for those that already mentor people and go into instances where no one can see them. 

Olihin

A problem still is with ae auto attacks... with ae auto attacks you can hit red players, mentored players, etc and pull them into combat.  It has happened a lot.  A level 70sk sits by the wf tower in antonica, and once people's ae autos hit him he starts killing them and their group.

The best solution imo would be to just make mentored players immune to pvp.  That way you don't have the possibility of exploiting it, and mentored players aren't at the mercy of unmentored players.

I just checked in a fix for the AE autoattacks. They will no longer hit mentored players, or players grouped with mentored players unless they are already able to hit you. It should be in the next test server update, please try it out on the test server!

As glad as I am that that bug is finally being fixed (it has been months), wouldn't it just be a lot simpler to make people that are mentoring immune to pvp?  That way people don't get attacked by lowbies and aren't "at the mercy of lowbies" and the higher leveled people mentoring down can't use the change to exploit and break low level pvp.  Some exploits are adressed with the changes here, but from past experience not everything is weeded out in test.  Like the saying goes, where there is a will, there is a way.

Just making people immune saves you guys from having to fix exploits with it in the future, and still achieves the same desired effect of allowingh higher leveled people to be able to go into thew contested zones and not vbe at the mercxy of lower level players, and lower level people won't have to go through the weeks of having the pvp they like exploited and just not fun.  Making people who are mentoring unattackable is just a lot simpler, and it is win win for everyone (except people who like to hunt down the mentored players SMILEY )

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Old 05-19-2011, 10:08 PM   #29
Kimber
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Problem with making mentored toons immune to PvP is then you will have people mentor down and sit out int the open world some place waiting for groups to enguage mobs or whatever and unmentor and jump em.  This same thing happend back in ROK kinda with greys wallking into the middle of raids going after contested and hitting the tank with a mez.  Causeing the raid to wipe while it would not be as bad possabley but with the new changes to PvP gear and PvE gear along with some of the other changes like the 50% requirment going away this would be exploited even more than what we are worried about with mentored toons being able to fight back.

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Old 05-20-2011, 11:25 AM   #30
Silzin
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Maevianiu wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Olihin wrote:

The mentoring change is to the player being able to defend.

All other aspects of mentoring remain the same:  

  • A non agro, even con player is mentored so attacking them is up to you.  
  • A mentored player cannot engage another player, so they can just sit around hoping someone hits them.
  • A mentored player in a group cannot engage another player, so they still have to wait to be attacked.
  • A group with a mentored player cannot engage another, so unless your group gets attacked, they can't attack.
  • A mentored player can get attacked by someone of the mentored level up to the actual level, so 90s can kill them
  • In addition, the fame will not be granted if you are grey or red (actual level) to the target. 

The change just adds an incentive for players to help those lower level players in open/contested zones.   The change does nothing for those that already mentor people and go into instances where no one can see them. 

Olihin

A problem still is with ae auto attacks... with ae auto attacks you can hit red players, mentored players, etc and pull them into combat.  It has happened a lot.  A level 70sk sits by the wf tower in antonica, and once people's ae autos hit him he starts killing them and their group.

The best solution imo would be to just make mentored players immune to pvp.  That way you don't have the possibility of exploiting it, and mentored players aren't at the mercy of unmentored players.

Or they could fix AE auto, since it breaks mezzes and such in PVE as well.

I just tried this out on test and AE autoattacks were not breaking mezzes. Is there a specific case where this happens? Maybe a specific mez spell etc?

I am not sure what would be differint atm with test-copy and live for AE auto, but on live my AE auto will brack any mobs infront of me when the chanter casts the group mez.  This is when i notice it the most.

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