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Old 10-31-2018, 02:39 PM   #211
Earar

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exactly
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:54 PM   #212
Garry827

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Mystic and Defiler - WARD. if incoming damage from mob ignore ward - shaman also ignored from players.
i am defiler and I am extremely disappointed by the destruction of the essence of the shamans
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:59 PM   #213
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is AoE that ignore wards intended ? at start of pop some of the mob's damage ignored wards and fighter temps but got changed.

so is it intended or bug ?

also how strong are the damage that ignore wards ? is it fail condition ?
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:00 PM   #214
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While it'd be a little tedious, you can get an idea of how increasing gear will effect this. Just need to grab a couple sets of mc gear and plat infuse one set and leave the other stock. Should at least give a hint at how much upgrades will help us...

I'd prefer just having the tooltip say what the value is but I don't think that's how what they did works? Since it's a debuff to the incoming heals I'm wondering where it actually applies in the calculations. And how do abilities that Increase incoming heals interact with it? While not reliable, I know the SK has/had one on the prestige tree that I usually ignore. Will those be required now?

Still a lot of questions. Though playing an Inq, I'll probably just be throwing everything I have and praying an auto-attack let's me feel like I'm doing some damage at least.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:21 PM   #215
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The weirdness is reducing it on incoming heals. How on earth that value relates to the change in wards is beyond me. The number must be modified by some form of stats.

I'd be curious to see if you tested a non-variable ward, on another player, and changed their stats around to see how much the ward goes up or down, or if it even changes at all.

Sadly this mechanic sounds horrid, a bit like potency mitigation.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:37 PM   #216
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At least potency mitigation is consistent. With this applying to incoming, does the value of a group heal/Ward change if the number of players in group changes? A little better understanding of the mechanic so we know how far we have to push stats to see the benefits would be good.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:44 PM   #217
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Should have done this earlier but work and responsibilities on live sidetracked me so going to quickly post few numbers on the hit my templar takes from library to in zone.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:59 PM   #218
Earar

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hidden mechanics are rarely "fun"
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:28 PM   #219
Daalilama

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Shield of Faith
  • Myrist 215,150, 125
  • T1 96, 551, 744
  • T2 61,512,726
Impart Faith
  • Myrist 243, 339, 751
  • T1 145, 502, 813
  • T2 69,572, 312
Repent
  • Myrist 363,308,905
  • T1 136, 502, 813
  • T2 125, 630,696
Divinity's Aid
  • Myrist 142, 219, 542
  • T1 63,824,197
  • T2 40,661, 844
Just sampled my wards on my templar from zoning in for a quick base sample....numbers are about average...with scaling gear on....just going to say overkill.
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:46 PM   #220
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I tested on another player (before the patch last night) and the 'percent' difference between myrist value and t1/t2 value was the same between my mystic and the SK. The SK values were higher, but the tank was specced (via prestige) for increased heals incoming, so that was to be expected.

I will do more testing with wards on somebody else with changing gear as you suggested. That may be interesting.
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:50 PM   #221
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The ability that was ignoring wards was discovered while we were testing with a dev around. The dev indicated that the abiltiy ignoring wards was intended.
It was not a fail condition. The damage was about 20m every few seconds. it was in the wind EH zone.. ability was Wind Spear
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:51 PM   #222
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Well that helps at least.

I'm surprised the debuff doesn't just say decreases outgoing heals by X amount then. I'm also still baffled where the number comes from, as it doesn't seem to correlate to anything else, unless it's a base amount before Pot/CB/Fervor etc. all apply.
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:54 PM   #223
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I thought about it as a base number, but that doesn't pan out in the math. The heal on torpor has the smallest base value of the abilities I tested and it was hitting for 'more' (percent-wise) than all the single target heals/wards. If it was a flat reduction off the base value, it would 'hurt' smaller heals/wards more (percent-wise).
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:59 PM   #224
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Maybe reduces base potency by that amount for heals [Similar to how mobs mitigate X amount of potency]? Honestly that's the best I can think of now, and even then the maths doesn't add up.
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:15 PM   #225
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Soo... as a further test, I took out all my AA and gear (to get the base values of the heals/wards I tested)
I only put the single prestige point in umbral barrier to get the art.
With zero buffs, the toon had 46.5 fervor, 302, cb and 84.5 pot. The tooltip values read as below
Umbral Barrier: 10,453
Acestral Ward X (grandmaster): 5,657
Oberon VI (expert): 8,069
Torpor V (grandmaster) (ward): 2,521

I then stepped into a T1 heroic zone and cast the wards. All of them warded for zero. So the number given doesn't appear to be a straight reduction on the base. (The number in the debuff still read 5295).

It's not a potency debuff, because the change between t1 and t2 is too high (from prior numbers) given the size of even our beta potency pools. 2.3k potency shouldn't reduce a heal from 52% of normal to 38% of normal with base pot of 53.7k
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:36 PM   #226
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That part that struck me was the debuff is on incoming heals.

Perhaps this implies they have created some kind of hidden value born by the target to regulate heals received?
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:44 PM   #227
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We've seen debuffs that reduce incoming heals before (can you say fabled Guk?) and I don't know that there is an existing mechanic to reduce heals out, so it actually makes sense to have an heal in debuff rather then heal out.
They aren't using the %based reduction debuffs like the ones in Guk employ however and, so far, they've declined to share enough information for us to figure out what is actually going on.
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:55 PM   #228
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One issue this doesn’t contemplate is the bleedthrough problem. No matter how much gear I get or how much potency/fervor I get, my group for the whole expansion still takes the same amount of damage. If 20% bleeds through, and I ward for 1b or 100b my group still takes 20% of the mobs damage. Where is the gear upgrade for shaman? Will there be gear with bleed through reduction?
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Old 10-31-2018, 06:06 PM   #229
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A larger ward can still be beneficial, especially if health pools grow to a size that allows the damage incoming to eat through the entire ward before expiration on a consistent basis. That said, I am pretty irritated to hear that in addition to bleedthrough, there are also aoe's that simply ignore wards.

i.e. Ward hits target for 100 million. The aoe hits for 50 million every 2 seconds and half the damage bleeds through. it would take 8 seconds for that ward to get eaten. But twice as long if your ward improves to 200 million. That is more time you can spend casting other things besides that ward. But all that assumes the health pools are large enough and we have the tools at hand to deal with the other 25 million damage that bleeds through before the groups health reaches zero.

I'm remaining hopeful that these changes end up bringing better balance between all healers without totally neutering the class I've loved since launch.
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Old 10-31-2018, 06:13 PM   #230
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Right. It's clearly not a % or level reduction of the gross heal amount, incoming or outgoing.

Obviously, the debuff is adjusting some value that is effecting incoming heals. Either it's visible, and the relationship hasn't been identified yet, or it's a hidden value that hasn't been inferred yet.

Kander implied implied healing will improve with gear, but that doesn't tell us anything. Pot and cb (and various modifiers) can improve the amount of heals received while keeping the debuff constant.

It seems reasonable to consider those debuff values are adusting some value related to the target
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Old 11-01-2018, 02:22 PM   #231
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Have you examined the wards/heals as a portion of the recipient's HP? That seems to be the logical place to look at this point.
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Old 11-01-2018, 04:21 PM   #232
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Yup. They're not %based. One of the people I tested with was an SK. Her hitpoint pool was significantly larger than my mystics and the ward size was only marginally larger (but the SK was specced for extra healing in). Also, the 'difference' between the ward in Myrist and in the t1/t2s was the same % difference on the Sk as on the mystic. If it was based on hitpoints, that would not have been the case.
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Old 11-03-2018, 06:36 PM   #233
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So, any news about increasing Inquisitor's dps, removing threshold from Interrogation and making class viable again?

Also, as far as I understand Combat Mitigation concept is almost forgotten. Can we have a replacement for out CM epic 2.0 debuff? Having a huge group ward as a templar versus 1000 combat mitigation debuf as an inquisitor was very unfair in the first place. Now it's absolutelly ridiculous. Make it at least flat damage vulnerability, something like Anguish.
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Old 11-03-2018, 07:27 PM   #234
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I don't know about the dps part but it seems like removing the threshold from Interrogation would be a no-brainer.
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:48 AM   #235
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So bleedtheough is here to stay, cool. Wards not being able to stack not cool. What’s the purpose of having a single ward with group wards on. If I put torpor on, cool, I get the HOT from it, but if I have a ward on prior to that the its Useless. So what are you going to replace all these useless spells with??it doesn’t matter how much you tweak. I get it, you want other healers to be relevant, but completely destroying two classes to get there isn’t the answer, although it seems we’ve went to 4 classes anyway. Ascensions. Me gets mana Regan, one gets ward, lol. Sigh implementation is poor, but we’lol have to see how your passions play out.
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:14 AM   #236
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As someone told me so kindly a few days ago: adapt or leave !

I've chosen and won't heal any more Smile
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:12 AM   #237
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especially short timed wards like oberon.

a ward like oberon now should have something else. Like not affected by BT. It's still the lvl 50 ward, the strong single target ward mystics have. It should do something else than just ward if anyhow any other wards can do the same job on lower cooldown

but where ST ward and group ward stand. It's logical .. group ward is to protect the group and single ward it so the MT doesn't eat the group ward. that doesn't change. What change is that solo heal mystics won't bother to cast ST wards on all party members now. Also some ST ward will be redundant. If normal ST ward can keep up some other wards will be come useless.

Torpor will only be used for the HoT, oberon IDK, prophetic ward that was situational in disease fights certainly will become even more situational, and what about runic armor ?

same In AAs, now it's wondering if points in spiritual leadership, aura of warding, spirit aegis .; even reprieve ... how usefull/less they will become.

because if no stacking, then ST ward and group ward would be all a mystic need (since usually can recast before it gets eaten)
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:25 AM   #238
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Like I said lol. Pretty much everything a shaman has is now uselssss. Let’s see, channeling , single big, single small heal and group heal. The HOT from torpor. Nothing else will stack or come into play lol. Wards are now like AE blockers Smile.
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Old 11-06-2018, 02:15 AM   #239
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As depressing as it seems, I highly doubt the devs will adjust the mechanics on their new shiny new gatekeeping (I mean adjustment) to Bleedthrough and the still mostly hidden incoming heal nerf. As such at this moment I only have a few suggestions if we launch with these as they are on Beta unchanged.....but only for clerics....i am working with my own raid healers to get their feedback but many are extremely not happy.

  • CLERICS: Divine Assistance (Cleric Prestige). Due to the changes to heal mechanics 2 fold (Bleedthrough and Incoming heal nerf) cleric reactives will be burnt through at an exceedingly faster click than usual and considering an almost but not entirely removal of reliance on wards to help keep groups stable and that healers will be even more focused on spam heals with little time in-between cooldowns for any sort of concerted effort to participate in any real measure dps for their group or raid I would suggest that Divine Assistance in the cleric prestige tree (which has a 36% chance to double up the base triggers on our Single target & group reactives as well as Seraph's Restoration with 3 points). I would add increasing this trigger chance for Divine Assistance from the 36% chance currently with 3 points into it to 40 to 45% chance with 3 points into it will slightly help clerics mitigate the incoming damage for their groups with the loss of wards as they are currently on live.
  • INQUISITORS; Prepared Defenses (Inquisitor Prestige) Currently with 3 points this places a ward for the inquisitors group when Interrogation is used once the target reaches threshold. With the combination of changes to healing this coming xpac this threshold needs to be removed period. Keeping the threshold intact as is once we go live not only is excessively repressive to this class but ties the class's hands keeping their group alive. Allowing Inquisitors and their group to receive this ward regardless of the targets threshold will add an element of utility/survivability to their capabilities that has been sadly lacking for a considerably long time...
That's all I got atm....though I'm sure other inquisitors should be able to better comment on some needed changes to their class in addition to the ward on Interrogation. Caith for the love of all the norathian gods, please look into this especially the Prepared Defenses changes inquisitors have been asking for that for years now and with the heal changes going in with relation to wards I can not fathom how this change could not go in. I know it's needed and I do not even play an inquisitor.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:28 AM   #240
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Hmm seeing crickets...why is it every beta healer feedback forums always have the most replies and the least active dev responses.
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