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Old 04-29-2011, 03:49 PM   #151
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So Rothgar, can we get a buff bot up on Test Copy so we can get some people to organize some fights with full PVP gear and figure more things out?

Obviously some tweaks will need to be made regarding damage, heals, etc etc. No one wants to go back to the omgnoonecandie era again.

And my toons still haven't been copied, so it would help me too!

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Old 04-29-2011, 03:57 PM   #152
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At a minimum damage mitigation in PVP needs to be addressed - I'd hate to go back to no one dies - no one wins. But I still think the best solution - would be one that allows mixing and matching.

PVP gear has 2x the mitigation for PVP fighting, but still retains .5 mitigation for PVE. And vice versa on PVE gear. So, PVP gear gives both PVP crit mit (alot) and PVE crit mit (a little), and the same w/ PVE gear. Ditto w/ the basic stats. I dunno, maybe it's too much, part of me just says whatever, it's gonna be what it is, but I do think integration which allows mixing of gear is better than 100% separation of stats.

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Old 04-29-2011, 03:58 PM   #153
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Rothgar wrote:

You're making the assumption that people won't PvE because the rewards won't help them in PvP, correct?

It's our hope, at least, that people still want to PvE because that content is fun to play.  Guilds still want to compete for who can clear raid zones first.  EQII is still a PvE game above all with PvP rules if you want them.  PvP is meant to provide extra risk and danger to the other things you do.  We want people to be able to play only PvP if thats what they want to do, but we aren't trying to encourage people to stop doing the PvE content.  The changes that were made to the gear were just done so that PvP combat can be tuned more accurately without be affected by the PvE progression.  We've had the ability to do separate spell effects for awhile, but we've never been able to do that with stats until this change.

You are way too idealistic in this. I trust you do believe what you wrote, but that is not how we (people who do PvE and PvP too) feel. You have a few people here who think that the changes are great, but none of them took the effort to actually test a single thing.

The PvP gear vs PvP gear combat is completely broken on test. I challenge you to make a toon with the existing gear and kill my character. Pick any class, put whatever gear that you think is good that is available to players on test on it, tell me a place and time and if you manage to kill my toon, I'll shut up here.

But from what I have seen, I still think this:

Put PvE stat reductions for PvP combat, put additional caps on them if you want, but don't make PvE geared toons naked in PvP and don't make PvP geared toons naked in PvE. We are not playing 2 diffrerent games, we are all playing 1 game. PvE and PvP should be both viable playstyles, but it is not so anymore. Trust me, you will not encourage PvP with this and you are most certainly discouraging PvE with this.

You guys did great changes to the fame and you have people resubbing because of it. Please don't lose a new batch of players with a change as big as the infamy change was back then.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:00 PM   #154
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GussJr wrote:

I like the changes...(probably a minority).

IMO it might actually make PvE easier on Nag because you would have less PvP toons camping quest areas because if they got attacked by NPC mobs while in their PvP gear, I am guessing they wouldn't stick around for very long to die time after time while waiting for a PvE geared toon to show up...

I will be the first one to camp every single PQ and every single quest turn in point for easy kills until my sub runs out. And so will everyone else who has enough PvP gear to be invincible. PvE mobs are easy to avoid, but you will find questing impossible when people are trying to farm gear and fame and  you have 0 crit bonus, 0 potency and 0 crit mit against them. SMILEY

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:03 PM   #155
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Why appropriate...

115 bcm* - 185 acm** for fighters [actually 147.5 - 217.5 considering Toughness]

182.9 bcm - 262.9 acm for priests (+ runed mobius strip) [actually 215.4 - 295.4 considering Toughness]

*bcm - base crit mit
**adorned crit mit
...& again different values for scouts/mages?
Why not just have 145 bcm for all?
Trying to overcompensate for any one class in this way will just wrongly exacerbate grave imbalance if the unjust PvE/PvP crit bonus/potency separation is rightfully undone.
Otherwise, there's really just about no point for 90 extra PvP crit mit beyond what anyone would able to be obtain with "PvP crit bonus" which urgently anticipates its righteous annihilation as an unreasonable game design concept.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:03 PM   #156
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[email protected] wrote:

At a minimum damage mitigation in PVP needs to be addressed - I'd hate to go back to no one dies - no one wins. But I still think the best solution - would be one that allows mixing and matching.

PVP gear has 2x the mitigation for PVP fighting, but still retains .5 mitigation for PVE. And vice versa on PVE gear. So, PVP gear gives both PVP crit mit (alot) and PVE crit mit (a little), and the same w/ PVE gear. Ditto w/ the basic stats. I dunno, maybe it's too much, part of me just says whatever, it's gonna be what it is, but I do think integration which allows mixing of gear is better than 100% separation of stats.

But see, there's an issue with that. As the power of gear increases, so will the power of raiders in PVP. Right now with 200% CB and Potency, at .5 you'd have 100%. But what happens when you hit 300%? 400%? It's bound to happen eventually. Meanwhile, PVPers will be stuck at a measly 70% or so. And MA is already at the 300-400% levels, so a simple .5 mod to that wouldn't work.

The best bet is one of two things. Either 1) it's capped out at whatever the maximum obtainable PVP values would be, or 2) it's decreased based on the amount of potency and crit bonus you have. Perhaps at 100% PVE CB/Potency, it's a 50% ratio. Maybe at 200% you lose 75% of your PVE values. Or even a smaller loss, so you end up with 75% Pot/CB. Just some thoughts.

Basically, the increasing stats on gear would need to be considered with every piece of gear they add if it's a simple 50% decrease.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:04 PM   #157
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[email protected] wrote:

Put PvE stat reductions for PvP combat, put additional caps on them if you want, but don't make PvE geared toons naked in PvP and don't make PvP geared toons naked in PvE. We are not playing 2 diffrerent games, we are all playing 1 game.

PvE and PvP should be both viable playstyles, but it is not so anymore. Trust me, you will not encourage PvP with this and you are most certainly discouraging PvE with this.

Many of us tried pointing this out during the TSO pvp explosion, when the Bluebies started campaigning that allowing a viable pvp solution on Nagafen was "intolerable".

Their unyielding demand was "raid in immunity for the best gear" to auto-win in pvp, and no offered pvp solution was acceptable to them... and here we are today!

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:04 PM   #158
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The problem is, the best pvp this game ever had revolved around people out doing pve content and encountering random pvp on the side while doing that pve stuff. Those people did that pve stuff because they had too, yes it was dangerous but you prepared for it, got a group and got it done. Now there isnt going to be any of that, the random pvp will forever be gone, because no one will have to do anything pve for pvp, thus the only people that will be out are the ones specifily looking for pvp. Well we all know what happens then, they zerg up, and clump together because its safer and more efficent.

Remember how much pvp there was when people were forced to go out and pve for epic weapon quest? That was random pvp encouraged by pve.

Now remember how much pvp there was when the WF zerg started. It turned into 150 verses 30 every 2 hours......

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:05 PM   #159
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And that is not even taking Multi attack into account, some players are literally flurrying every round of auto attacks right now and its only going to get worse once the new zones/gear is defeated/aquired

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:06 PM   #160
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[email protected] wrote:

I will be the first one to camp every single PQ and every single quest turn in point for easy kills until my sub runs out. And so will everyone else who has enough PvP gear to be invincible. PvE mobs are easy to avoid, but you will find questing impossible when people are trying to farm gear and fame and  you have 0 crit bonus, 0 potency and 0 crit mit against them.

Just means players wishing to pve will go hide in an instance to avoid pvp, exactly like a pve raider already does!

With all the nerfs to PQ gear, it really isn't worth attending them much at all anyways.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:06 PM   #161
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

At a minimum damage mitigation in PVP needs to be addressed - I'd hate to go back to no one dies - no one wins. But I still think the best solution - would be one that allows mixing and matching.

PVP gear has 2x the mitigation for PVP fighting, but still retains .5 mitigation for PVE. And vice versa on PVE gear. So, PVP gear gives both PVP crit mit (alot) and PVE crit mit (a little), and the same w/ PVE gear. Ditto w/ the basic stats. I dunno, maybe it's too much, part of me just says whatever, it's gonna be what it is, but I do think integration which allows mixing of gear is better than 100% separation of stats.

But see, there's an issue with that. As the power of gear increases, so will the power of raiders in PVP. Right now with 200% CB and Potency, at .5 you'd have 100%. But what happens when you hit 300%? 400%? It's bound to happen eventually. Meanwhile, PVPers will be stuck at a measly 70% or so. And MA is already at the 300-400% levels, so a simple .5 mod to that wouldn't work.

The best bet is one of two things. Either 1) it's capped out at whatever the maximum obtainable PVP values would be, or 2) it's decreased based on the amount of potency and crit bonus you have. Perhaps at 100% PVE CB/Potency, it's a 50% ratio. Maybe at 200% you lose 75% of your PVE values. Or even a smaller loss, so you end up with 75% Pot/CB. Just some thoughts.

Basically, the increasing stats on gear would need to be considered with every piece of gear they add if it's a simple 50% decrease.

What's the issue with just establishing "In PvP" rates appropriate for what casual/heroic players can obtain?

Hint...no issue (unless careful developer personalization isn't a fiscally pragmatic option [& it really must be made such, even if it requires hiring a janitor closet Gnome intern]).

Why try to beat around the bush with over-complicating ratios to be instated at arbitrary points?

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:07 PM   #162
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[email protected] wrote:

GussJr wrote:

I like the changes...(probably a minority).

IMO it might actually make PvE easier on Nag because you would have less PvP toons camping quest areas because if they got attacked by NPC mobs while in their PvP gear, I am guessing they wouldn't stick around for very long to die time after time while waiting for a PvE geared toon to show up...

I will be the first one to camp every single PQ and every single quest turn in point for easy kills until my sub runs out. And so will everyone else who has enough PvP gear to be invincible. PvE mobs are easy to avoid, but you will find questing impossible when people are trying to farm gear and fame and  you have 0 crit bonus, 0 potency and 0 crit mit against them.

I wasn't referring to turn-in points. I was reffering to areas where you obtain updates, especially in higher-tiered zones. I honestly could care less if someone tries to kill me while I'm turning in a quest. /shrug Yay for evac and a griffon.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:10 PM   #163
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

At a minimum damage mitigation in PVP needs to be addressed - I'd hate to go back to no one dies - no one wins. But I still think the best solution - would be one that allows mixing and matching.

PVP gear has 2x the mitigation for PVP fighting, but still retains .5 mitigation for PVE. And vice versa on PVE gear. So, PVP gear gives both PVP crit mit (alot) and PVE crit mit (a little), and the same w/ PVE gear. Ditto w/ the basic stats. I dunno, maybe it's too much, part of me just says whatever, it's gonna be what it is, but I do think integration which allows mixing of gear is better than 100% separation of stats.

But see, there's an issue with that. As the power of gear increases, so will the power of raiders in PVP. Right now with 200% CB and Potency, at .5 you'd have 100%. But what happens when you hit 300%? 400%? It's bound to happen eventually. Meanwhile, PVPers will be stuck at a measly 70% or so. And MA is already at the 300-400% levels, so a simple .5 mod to that wouldn't work.

The best bet is one of two things. Either 1) it's capped out at whatever the maximum obtainable PVP values would be, or 2) it's decreased based on the amount of potency and crit bonus you have. Perhaps at 100% PVE CB/Potency, it's a 50% ratio. Maybe at 200% you lose 75% of your PVE values. Or even a smaller loss, so you end up with 75% Pot/CB. Just some thoughts.

Basically, the increasing stats on gear would need to be considered with every piece of gear they add if it's a simple 50% decrease.

What's the issue with just establishing "In PvP" rates appropriate for what casual/heroic players can obtain?

Hint...no issue (unless careful developer personalization isn't a fiscally pragmatic option [& it really must be made such, even if it requires hiring a janitor closet Gnome intern]).

Why try to beat around the bush with over-complicating ratios to be instated at arbitrary points?

So what, if a heroic player can get like 150% crit bonus and potency, that's what we should give in PVP on the PVP gear? That still means raid gear will give way more potency/CB than anything PVP gets you.

Or are you saying adding a cap in, which is what has already been suggested?

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:13 PM   #164
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Neskonlith wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Put PvE stat reductions for PvP combat, put additional caps on them if you want, but don't make PvE geared toons naked in PvP and don't make PvP geared toons naked in PvE. We are not playing 2 diffrerent games, we are all playing 1 game.

PvE and PvP should be both viable playstyles, but it is not so anymore. Trust me, you will not encourage PvP with this and you are most certainly discouraging PvE with this.

Many of us tried pointing this out during the TSO pvp explosion, when the Bluebies started campaigning that allowing a viable pvp solution on Nagafen was "intolerable".

Their unyielding demand was "raid in immunity for the best gear" to auto-win in pvp, and no offered pvp solution was acceptable to them... and here we are today!

Yea but dont forget how easy that TSO gear was to get. Most active pvp'rs had full sets so fast it made your head spin, thus making pve progression dumb, because you could actually get pvp gear 100x faster than you could pve gear and they were both equal in effectiveness in pve. So bluebies from other servers raged because people on pvp had a pve advanatge in pve with pvp gear.

Had they made pvp gear as slow to get as pve gear it would have been fine but they didnt thats why it was changed....

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:17 PM   #165
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

At a minimum damage mitigation in PVP needs to be addressed - I'd hate to go back to no one dies - no one wins. But I still think the best solution - would be one that allows mixing and matching.

PVP gear has 2x the mitigation for PVP fighting, but still retains .5 mitigation for PVE. And vice versa on PVE gear. So, PVP gear gives both PVP crit mit (alot) and PVE crit mit (a little), and the same w/ PVE gear. Ditto w/ the basic stats. I dunno, maybe it's too much, part of me just says whatever, it's gonna be what it is, but I do think integration which allows mixing of gear is better than 100% separation of stats.

But see, there's an issue with that. As the power of gear increases, so will the power of raiders in PVP. Right now with 200% CB and Potency, at .5 you'd have 100%. But what happens when you hit 300%? 400%? It's bound to happen eventually. Meanwhile, PVPers will be stuck at a measly 70% or so. And MA is already at the 300-400% levels, so a simple .5 mod to that wouldn't work.

The best bet is one of two things. Either 1) it's capped out at whatever the maximum obtainable PVP values would be, or 2) it's decreased based on the amount of potency and crit bonus you have. Perhaps at 100% PVE CB/Potency, it's a 50% ratio. Maybe at 200% you lose 75% of your PVE values. Or even a smaller loss, so you end up with 75% Pot/CB. Just some thoughts.

Basically, the increasing stats on gear would need to be considered with every piece of gear they add if it's a simple 50% decrease.

What's the issue with just establishing "In PvP" rates appropriate for what casual/heroic players can obtain?

Hint...no issue (unless careful developer personalization isn't a fiscally pragmatic option [& it really must be made such, even if it requires hiring a janitor closet Gnome intern]).

Why try to beat around the bush with over-complicating ratios to be instated at arbitrary points?

So what, if a heroic player can get like 150% crit bonus and potency, that's what we should give in PVP on the PVP gear? That still means raid gear will give way more potency/CB than anything PVP gets you.

Or are you saying adding a cap in, which is what has already been suggested?

No, I think caps would be wrong, as class buffs modifying critical bonus, or using other heroically obtained gear that might put you above a 4.5 cb/pot average per accessory, help retain individuality & incentive for PvE content.

I'm fine with raided pieces keeping their set bonuses, ability mod, flurry, strikethrough, accuracy, reuse, casting, & MA, as I think these are augmentations that we could all possibly pursue with equipment UNIVERSAL in its critical mitigation performance.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:17 PM   #166
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It didn't matter that those guilds got 120% crit mit before anyone else, because they still couldn't clear past the snake mob in Tombs!

Also, a helpful dev said he passed a message along to the items people about getting a buff bot on test.. So, fingers crossed.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:22 PM   #167
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

At a minimum damage mitigation in PVP needs to be addressed - I'd hate to go back to no one dies - no one wins. But I still think the best solution - would be one that allows mixing and matching.

PVP gear has 2x the mitigation for PVP fighting, but still retains .5 mitigation for PVE. And vice versa on PVE gear. So, PVP gear gives both PVP crit mit (alot) and PVE crit mit (a little), and the same w/ PVE gear. Ditto w/ the basic stats. I dunno, maybe it's too much, part of me just says whatever, it's gonna be what it is, but I do think integration which allows mixing of gear is better than 100% separation of stats.

But see, there's an issue with that. As the power of gear increases, so will the power of raiders in PVP. Right now with 200% CB and Potency, at .5 you'd have 100%. But what happens when you hit 300%? 400%? It's bound to happen eventually. Meanwhile, PVPers will be stuck at a measly 70% or so. And MA is already at the 300-400% levels, so a simple .5 mod to that wouldn't work.

The best bet is one of two things. Either 1) it's capped out at whatever the maximum obtainable PVP values would be, or 2) it's decreased based on the amount of potency and crit bonus you have. Perhaps at 100% PVE CB/Potency, it's a 50% ratio. Maybe at 200% you lose 75% of your PVE values. Or even a smaller loss, so you end up with 75% Pot/CB. Just some thoughts.

Basically, the increasing stats on gear would need to be considered with every piece of gear they add if it's a simple 50% decrease.

What's the issue with just establishing "In PvP" rates appropriate for what casual/heroic players can obtain?

Hint...no issue (unless careful developer personalization isn't a fiscally pragmatic option [& it really must be made such, even if it requires hiring a janitor closet Gnome intern]).

Why try to beat around the bush with over-complicating ratios to be instated at arbitrary points?

So what, if a heroic player can get like 150% crit bonus and potency, that's what we should give in PVP on the PVP gear? That still means raid gear will give way more potency/CB than anything PVP gets you.

Or are you saying adding a cap in, which is what has already been suggested?

No, I think caps would be wrong, as class buffs modifying critical bonus, or using other heroically obtained gear that might put you above a 4.5 cb/pot average per accessory, help retain individuality & incentive for PvE content.

I'm fine with raided pieces keeping their set bonuses, ability mod, flurry, strikethrough, accuracy, reuse, casting, & MA, as I think these are augmentations that we could all possibly pursue with equipment UNIVERSAL in its critical mitigation performance.

I do not and neither do the devs it seems

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:30 PM   #168
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bleh messed it up...

edit: ok so here is the corrected equation that will work for any PvE or PvP stats now or in the future:

adjusted_pvp_stat = pvp_stat + pvp_stat_max * (1- ((1 - (0.5 / pvp_stat_max)) ^ pve_stat))

adjusted_pve_stat = pve_stat + pve_stat_max * (1 - ((1 - (0.5 / pve_stat_max)) ^ pvp_stat))

Then you can use the adjusted stats instead of raw stats and we are all happy.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:35 PM   #169
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Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Rothgar how hard would it be to add a pvp tab for us mate? is this something you will even consider for us? I know I and many others would appericate a response to this, we have a pve tab as it were, and a appearnce just give us a pvp tab so once engaged in pvp it defaults to our pvp stats and gear and once in pve it defaults to the pve gear we have equiped.

As a programmer myself I know that in itself is no quick task but, id say since we are on pvp make it where if we are in pve but get engaged with pvp it defaults to our pvp gear, no exceptions. This to me will allow people to defend themsleves and fight back, yes the pve target may be far harder to kill in pvp gear but at least you wont be "naked" to the pve.

That being said I can understand the load it may have on the server to continually default between sets of gear especailly if theres a ton of your in pvp, pve, no wait pvp! /overload lol.

Still I strongly beleive making pve useless in pvp is not the way to go, another question if you can answer is how hard would it to be to introduce a sliding scale as it where to scale down the pve gear we obtain once engaged in pvp combat. I kind of see this when i click my pvp tab on a item to see what its doing in a pvp battle, cant you just make the stats scale down accoridngly so there isnt 300 pot 300 multi or etc running around once engaged in pvp?

Looking forward to your response, and btw desipte disagreement from a lot of people I am really glad your at least trying to give us our pvp back a lot of things I see I am going to love, we just need to work out this pve vs pvp stuff.

edited because I fail at typing and probably still didnt catch all my typos ftl

An additional equipment tab would be a huge amount of work.  The appearance tab is simple because it doesnt provide any stats or effects, it only overrides the visual appearance of the gear.

To have two tabs of gear with separate stats would mean we'd have to duplicate all of the stat pools and effects on the server.  Think of having twice as many spell effects on you from procs and such, and every one would need to be checked constantly to see if it should be used or not based on your combat condition (which can change at any moment).  Separate stat pools and separate spell effects would just create a nightmare of a problem.

Other games that have done something similar with gear sets only let you activate one at a time for this reason.  Your suggestion of having them both be active all the time is the part that would be very difficult to do.

Rothgar, I have read this entire thread and Ill say again Im with the folks who are NOT in favor statistic seperation, mechanically and in a gameplay sense it may be the easiest solution but I do not think it will work out well for the health of the game if it is simply left as you have it.

The suggestion I had posted earlier in this thread would work just how you are suggesting as the way "other games" do it; give us alternate equipment tabs that will allow us to activate one of our equipment sets with the push of a button on the UI, with a cooldown to set swapping to prevent abuse. The new Character window UI has plenty of room for this.

This would be the most intuitive means to switching equipment on the fly for PvP or PvE if you guys are so sure that going the seperate gear route is THE only solution to the out of control statistics on PvE Equipment. Doing it this way gives more freedom for people to just play the game without having to worry about ever changing equipment macros and additonal inventory managment, and makes managing these different types of equipment people need to play the game feel alot more "natural" rather then something just tacked on to the game for mechanical reasons.

I also suggested an "Auto-Swap Equipment" feature that you could disable/enable in Character Options that would Activate your PvE/PvP set based on if your "in-combat" with a PvE Encounter or a PvP Encounter,  probably with PvP Equipment taking precedence if you find yourself in both battling both a player and a mob at the same time. This would be an ideal feature for those who would prefer not to have to deal with the manual activation.

Id imagine you could go a step further with this without adding too much work giving everyone an Artisan Equipment tab as well. So we would end up with tabs for PvP Equipment, PvE Equipment, Artisan Equipment, and Appearance Equipment. The appearance of your character would be based on the activated set with appearance slots always taking precedence as they do now. You could then manually switch to anyone of the three sets (PvE, PvP, Artisan) on the fly with a button press.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:38 PM   #170
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Crismorn wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

At a minimum damage mitigation in PVP needs to be addressed - I'd hate to go back to no one dies - no one wins. But I still think the best solution - would be one that allows mixing and matching.

PVP gear has 2x the mitigation for PVP fighting, but still retains .5 mitigation for PVE. And vice versa on PVE gear. So, PVP gear gives both PVP crit mit (alot) and PVE crit mit (a little), and the same w/ PVE gear. Ditto w/ the basic stats. I dunno, maybe it's too much, part of me just says whatever, it's gonna be what it is, but I do think integration which allows mixing of gear is better than 100% separation of stats.

But see, there's an issue with that. As the power of gear increases, so will the power of raiders in PVP. Right now with 200% CB and Potency, at .5 you'd have 100%. But what happens when you hit 300%? 400%? It's bound to happen eventually. Meanwhile, PVPers will be stuck at a measly 70% or so. And MA is already at the 300-400% levels, so a simple .5 mod to that wouldn't work.

The best bet is one of two things. Either 1) it's capped out at whatever the maximum obtainable PVP values would be, or 2) it's decreased based on the amount of potency and crit bonus you have. Perhaps at 100% PVE CB/Potency, it's a 50% ratio. Maybe at 200% you lose 75% of your PVE values. Or even a smaller loss, so you end up with 75% Pot/CB. Just some thoughts.

Basically, the increasing stats on gear would need to be considered with every piece of gear they add if it's a simple 50% decrease.

What's the issue with just establishing "In PvP" rates appropriate for what casual/heroic players can obtain?

Hint...no issue (unless careful developer personalization isn't a fiscally pragmatic option [& it really must be made such, even if it requires hiring a janitor closet Gnome intern]).

Why try to beat around the bush with over-complicating ratios to be instated at arbitrary points?

So what, if a heroic player can get like 150% crit bonus and potency, that's what we should give in PVP on the PVP gear? That still means raid gear will give way more potency/CB than anything PVP gets you.

Or are you saying adding a cap in, which is what has already been suggested?

No, I think caps would be wrong, as class buffs modifying critical bonus, or using other heroically obtained gear that might put you above a 4.5 cb/pot average per accessory, help retain individuality & incentive for PvE content.

I'm fine with raided pieces keeping their set bonuses, ability mod, flurry, strikethrough, accuracy, reuse, casting, & MA, as I think these are augmentations that we could all possibly pursue with equipment UNIVERSAL in its critical mitigation performance.

I do not and neither do the devs it seems

Lol. For someone who thinks it sound to erroneously cast ad hominem doubt, it's obvious you're also not rationally conceiving of the priority that is AVOIDING cookie-cutter, lifeless, linear gaming.

Really, cause my input is about "my agenda being to log whatever toon & kill others", as if that's ever going to somehow be undoable or difficult in any system?

Point is, there comes a time when you need to overcome self righteous, shallow bias & realize that it's best to address a system for its oversights.

And really? You're actually trying to claim "the #s are messed up & don't work, but they only work for raiders" when "In PvP" modification is a perfectly applicable solution?

You aren't even trying to be fair & balanced & you only undermine your own reputability in acting in such a way.

Crismorn wrote:

Combining pve/pvp crit mit at this time was probably considered and then immediately discarded because the #'s are simply too high "idk why I'm even replying to Seliri we all know his agenda is whatever toon he logs in being able to kill others" but yeah the #'s are messed up and simply dont work, actually scratch that they do work for raiders but everyone else falls short.

Why you ask?

A few of the reasons.

Multi attack went from capping at a 2nd attack to being uncapped and I'm 99% sure SoE did not see people going from a having 2 attacks going off per weapon per round to 5+ per round, nor did they realize that it pretty much makes many classes have 100% flurry once they have geared themselves thus far, this of course does not even take into account that we are a few months into DoV and more raidzones are being released with even better gear then is currently available "maybe we can get 800+ Multi attack by the end of DoV" so the issue is the dev team being short sighted when they uncapped MA and of course then we have players with 300+ crit bonus and 300+ potency.

Something had to be done and outside of making pvp gear with 300 crit mit, Multi attack avoidance, Potency avoidance, increasing crit bonus it had to be changed somehow that allowed fights to last longer then it takes to hit Tab + 1.

Another thing devs should look into is pve values being applied on initiative.

@Deneir_Allaston:

Gear swapping does nothing to remedy the fact that one is rendered inoperable for effectively competing in a PvE/PvP environment when their CB/Pot/MA are at 0.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:40 PM   #171
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I use my voice on these forums to acheive better game balance for everyone that logs into eq2 because it makes the game better for everyone, you on the other hand use your voice to drown out anything that does not help whatever toon your logging in with whatever gear he currently has stay above others.

One of us should be listened too and the other should be ignored, I'll let the devs and playerbase decide which is which.

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:47 PM   #172
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Glad I'm getting my questing done now - no way in hell I'll be out questing on alts after this goes into place. 

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Old 04-29-2011, 04:50 PM   #173
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[email protected] wrote:

Glad I'm getting my questing done now - no way in hell I'll be out questing on alts after this goes into place. 

I am probably done with all pve content on all of my toons when this update hits SMILEY

I probably wont open pvp any, untill all of my toons have full sets of bg gear.

This is gona be such a lol update.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:08 PM   #174
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[email protected] wrote:

So Rothgar, can we get a buff bot up on Test Copy so we can get some people to organize some fights with full PVP gear and figure more things out?

Obviously some tweaks will need to be made regarding damage, heals, etc etc. No one wants to go back to the omgnoonecandie era again.

And my toons still haven't been copied, so it would help me too!

I'll bring it up.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:11 PM   #175
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[email protected] wrote:

 @Deneir_Allaston:

Gear swapping does nothing to remedy the fact that one is rendered inoperable for effectively competing in a PvE/PvP environment when their CB/Pot/MA are at 0.

Im well aware of that Seliri, thats why Ive said on multiple occasions (including prefacing the last post I just made with that intention) that I am NOT a supporter of statistic seperation on gear. All I am saying though is that multiple equipment tabs as I have suggested is one of the best constructive ideas I have seen based on the premise that the Developers are not changing their stance on the subject of statistic seperation and the need for multiple equipment sets.

The additonal equipment tabs as a feature would remain useful even if they decided to soften/change their stance on statistics and decide to unify them all once again anyways. Which I would love to see happen as Im sure many others would in this thread - given the right changes I have no doubt it could work. Theres been plenty of reasonable feedback in this thread detailing why stat seperation is a bad idea as well as many reasonable solutions to how one might counterbalance the statistic inflation on the PvE Equipment versus PvP Equipment debate.

Again I would love to see the developers rethink thier stance on this issue but I just dont think its going to happen which is why Im trying to provide the best constructive feedback I can based on the premise that they are going to go ahead with their current plans.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:14 PM   #176
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Rothgar wrote:

An additional equipment tab would be a huge amount of work.  The appearance tab is simple because it doesnt provide any stats or effects, it only overrides the visual appearance of the gear.

To have two tabs of gear with separate stats would mean we'd have to duplicate all of the stat pools and effects on the server.  Think of having twice as many spell effects on you from procs and such, and every one would need to be checked constantly to see if it should be used or not based on your combat condition (which can change at any moment).  Separate stat pools and separate spell effects would just create a nightmare of a problem.

Other games that have done something similar with gear sets only let you activate one at a time for this reason.  Your suggestion of having them both be active all the time is the part that would be very difficult to do.

How about a compromise then.  Add a new tab next to the Macro tab called Equipment Sets (or whatever you come up with). 

Make it work exactly like the equip item macros do but give it a different interface.  Instead of adding a new equip item line for each item, display the character with the slots around it like the equipment window does now and allow us to drag items over to the empty slots (the actual item would stay in our bags like it does now with the macros). 

Put a checkbox or something at the top that says whether the items should go into the appearance slot or the regular slot and have it apply to everything in this set. 

Allow us to do all the rest of the things you can with a macro like change the icon, give it a name, drag the macro icon to your hotbar, etc.  The difference would be that instead of adding lines for equip item, command, etc. you would have a picture of the character with the item slots.  When they activate the macro, it would run as if it were a macro with an equip item line for each of the items.

It wouldn't help if you were already engaged in combat, but it would make managing more than one set of gear a lot cleaner than it is now.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:15 PM   #177
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Crismorn wrote:

They either need to do what they are doing OR add.

Potency crit mit

Multi attack crit mit

Flurry crit mit

Spell dbl attack crit mit

On top of regular crit mit that also needs to be increased.

If you ACTUALLY think you're pursuing "better game balance for everyone", you've enthusiastically deluded yourself.

The problem isn't potency, MA, flurry, or spell double attack.

It's the fact that abilities like Shadow Step + Assassinate, Elemental Blast + Soulburn, Ice Comet + Manaburn, & Plaguebringer are hitting for exorbitant amounts due to an UTTERLY INCONSEQUENTIAL reduction of their critical modifiers & a complete absence of "In PvP" scaling to CB/Pot on raid gear.

I REGULARLY live against competent players tossing flurries & multi-attacks my way & compete with them in reasonable form.

You can't attempt to jump the gun in assuming our attributes need wholesale nerfing by 80-90%, when a 30-50% adjustment is likely going to be that perfect middleground while simultaneously offering fair, universal crit mit.

I have a full Ry'Gorr set entirely adorned with critical mitigation. I would receive no PvE benefit from having a PvP set with 145 crit mit as I've been suggesting (see: blue adorns = PvP only).

Simplifying choice in itemization burns life from gameplay in reducing the array from which improvements are obtained.

Just pursuing what everyone else can already be is boring.

It's why PvP ranks died with fame decay, its why battlegrounds have died so excruciatingly the past months, its why PvP populations died when level locking removed, & it's why contested lowbie PvP died when mastercrafted was mistakenly upgraded without reestablishing competence to rare, farmable loot.

Irresponsibility resides in seriously handi-capping players in their effort to accomplish PvE content in the face of PvP.

A compromise exists that ERASES the problem of suicidally squandering PvE efforts with 0 CB/Pot/MA while retaining desirable PvE influence & maintaining PvP readiness.

Yet you disagree with it, even before sufficient, exhaustive experimentation.

And no, I don't think it's reasonable to say "go do something else & come back later", as the people that are going to be doing this content are likely casuals focusing on heroic content.

These players often have time constraints, & as such, shouldn't have to deal with artifical timesinks that could've been avoided in helping them be a little bit more competent relative to the radicals out there.

May they still end up having to give up & relocate? Yes. But they should be given a better chance than none, which is currently what their probability will most likely be when seeking to make contested PvE accomplishments.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:33 PM   #178
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Ok, so after all the tests in game and then after tests with imaginary values with Peak we came down to this as the solution: pvp_stat = pvp_stat + (pvp_stat_max - pvp_stat) * (1 - ((1 - (0.5 / (pvp_stat_max - pvp_stat))) ^ pve_stat)) Basically what we are proposing is, in the function that calculates the sum of all PvP stats for gear, you add a line that will also count all the PvE stats and sum those too in a different sum. Then have a pvp_stat_max as a constant set to the maximum value you want for the said stat in PvP and with the pvp_stat sum, pve_stat sum and that constant you can calculate the final pvp stats using the formula above. This does not require long develoment time. It is a simple fix. PvP gear would still remain superior due to blue adors and toughness, but PvE geared players would not be naked in PvP. The same equation can be used to convert PvP only stats to weaker PvE stats so that people in PvP gear can quest and do some basic PvE tasks.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:34 PM   #179
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[email protected] wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

An additional equipment tab would be a huge amount of work.  The appearance tab is simple because it doesnt provide any stats or effects, it only overrides the visual appearance of the gear.

To have two tabs of gear with separate stats would mean we'd have to duplicate all of the stat pools and effects on the server.  Think of having twice as many spell effects on you from procs and such, and every one would need to be checked constantly to see if it should be used or not based on your combat condition (which can change at any moment).  Separate stat pools and separate spell effects would just create a nightmare of a problem.

Other games that have done something similar with gear sets only let you activate one at a time for this reason.  Your suggestion of having them both be active all the time is the part that would be very difficult to do.

How about a compromise then.  Add a new tab next to the Macro tab called Equipment Sets (or whatever you come up with). 

Make it work exactly like the equip item macros do but give it a different interface.  Instead of adding a new equip item line for each item, display the character with the slots around it like the equipment window does now and allow us to drag items over to the empty slots (the actual item would stay in our bags like it does now with the macros). 

Put a checkbox or something at the top that says whether the items should go into the appearance slot or the regular slot and have it apply to everything in this set. 

Allow us to do all the rest of the things you can with a macro like change the icon, give it a name, drag the macro icon to your hotbar, etc.  The difference would be that instead of adding lines for equip item, command, etc. you would have a picture of the character with the item slots.  When they activate the macro, it would run as if it were a macro with an equip item line for each of the items.

It wouldn't help if you were already engaged in combat, but it would make managing more than one set of gear a lot cleaner than it is now.

We've talked about doing this for awhile because it would be a better interface, but functionally would be the same, so it hasn't been a top priority.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:38 PM   #180
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[email protected] wrote:

Ok, so after all the tests in game and then after tests with imaginary values with Peak we came down to this as the solution: pvp_stat = pvp_stat + (pvp_stat_max - pvp_stat) * (1 - ((1 - (0.5 / (pvp_stat_max - pvp_stat))) ^ pve_stat)) Basically what we are proposing is, in the function that calculates the sum of all PvP stats for gear, you add a line that will also count all the PvE stats and sum those too in a different sum. Then have a pvp_stat_max as a constant set to the maximum value you want for the said stat in PvP and with the pvp_stat sum, pve_stat sum and that constant you can calculate the final pvp stats using the formula above. This does not require long develoment time. It is a simple fix. PvP gear would still remain superior due to blue adors and toughness, but PvE geared players would not be naked in PvP. The same equation can be used to convert PvP only stats to weaker PvE stats so that people in PvP gear can quest and do some basic PvE tasks.

You should really consider the following...

[email protected] wrote:

No, I think caps would be wrong, as class buffs modifying critical bonus, or using other heroically obtained gear that might put you above a 4.5 cb/pot average per accessory, help retain individuality & incentive for PvE content.

I'm fine with raided pieces keeping their set bonuses, ability mod, flurry, strikethrough, accuracy, reuse, casting, & MA, as I think these are augmentations that we could all possibly pursue with equipment UNIVERSAL in its critical mitigation performance.

But feel free to put some theoretical figures in your supposed algorithm, cause that's lookin' pretty freegin' mystifying sir.

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