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Old 07-07-2012, 10:56 PM   #1
Te'ana

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This is why I came to EQ2 and what I miss so Verrrry much.

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Old 07-08-2012, 12:16 AM   #2
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I don't get it.

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Old 07-08-2012, 01:06 AM   #3
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

This is why I came to EQ2 and what I miss so Verrrry much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voD7rEKGnZU is better quality.  Alpha is here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HokbrASX-uo.

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Old 07-08-2012, 02:02 AM   #4
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Wow I remember this, what happened to our game. Instead of talking rich colonies you have a wasteland of ice and snow that doesnt really represent the game. The new areas are set a whole wilderness away from town instead of the other way around.

Scores of talking npc's are slowly getting removed from the game, do the boss mobs even talk to us any more?

I miss eq2 the first 3 years of it. Now its a dumbed down easy mode wow want to be.

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Old 07-08-2012, 07:25 AM   #5
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Just listening to Hartsmann's narration on the first video sweeping through Freeport shows how far things have moved away from the original vision.

The 2005 E3 demonstration even makes Maj'Dul look more interesting than current content.  It says it was done entirely in the EQ2 engine with 3-5 text files.  It's too bad we'll never see it released, no matter how obsolete they decide it's become.

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Old 07-08-2012, 11:28 AM   #6
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Kasar wrote:

The 2005 E3 demonstration even makes Maj'Dul look more interesting than current content.

That's because that video is very misleading. They manipulated camera angles, gave "players" god-like abilities, and created enemy scripts that totally disregard in-game AI. I was around when DoF launched (as I'm sure you were, judging from your forum age), and the actual game experience was nothing like that - which is fine, this was meant to get people excited about it.

I could guarantee that it would take more than 3-5 text files to make interactive scripts like what was shown in the video that wouldn't have a predictable ending. (Edit: I guess I should specify by stressing the interactive part. Scripts that simply involve NPCs interacting with each other are much easier to implement than scripts that must re-calibrate based on player action.)

That being said, I completely agree with the sentiment that the game's level of adventure has diminished over the past few years. Sentinel's Fate and Destiny of Velious (can throw in Age of Discovery, since no content was added) especially feel like interconnecting themeparks. The sense of discovery has completely vanished. You literally will not miss a quest as long as you hit the 4-5 main quest hubs.

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Old 07-08-2012, 01:52 PM   #7
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It gets too expensive to work on an old game. That's why they abandon them.

Software gets outdated and has to be completely rewritten. The better designed it's the longer it lasts, but it never lasts indefinitely. Times change and technologies change and so does software. It doesn't pay to stick too long with old sotware.

You do your best when it's young and then put it on life support after that - doing minimal work to keep the game maintained and to profit for as long as you can while investing in a newer game. It's not about greed, it's about conservation.

Something similar happens with models and supermodels and actors even. They get old. It's increasingly expensive to keep a person looking young as they age. At some point, it's impossible. It's easier to focus on them when they're young and more profitable.

Take an old person and there're a number of things you can do to make them look and act more youthful. But ultimately, it's too expensive and just not effective. The same thing can be said for EQ2 or any other game. There's no infinite money to spend.

And so they're investing in a new game. And there's no guarantee it'll have what you want. Trends change. It goes for everything. It'll likely have extensive voice-over, but don't expect every feature from past games to be present in new games.

Hate to say it, but the older you get the more obvious this is. We all get old. Our idea of the ideal game gets old too. One of the best things you can do is find others in your age group and make a game using open source or to mod old(er) games.

We can all change with the times, but it's increasingly hard to do that. Our  brain becomes like cement as we age. I remember reading a research study about this topic. It's sad, but it happens to all of us. We become like a solid rock that changes slowwwlllllllllyyyyyyyyy.

A lot of people mistake this factor of aging as proof that the modern world no longer makes good things. Whether it's games or art or movies or cars or whatever. But it's a mistake to think this because older things weren't better, it just seems that way because our body and mind increasingly slow down and fail to keep pace with the modern world. It gives the impression that modern things are boring or mediocre when in fact they're top of the line and no less skillful and represent a combined work load and polish far in excess of anything in the past.

It's not fun to admit you're getting old. So people would rather blame the modern world.

Don't fail to notice that in the short-term when a company moves its investment money onto a newer game it can make the older game look worse in its later stages, but this is an illusion caused by the reinvesting of resources into a newer game. It doesn't mean that this reflects the whole market or is symptomatic of things outside the game or is a overall negative change in the skill of the developers.

Peace.

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Old 07-08-2012, 02:11 PM   #8
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LadyMist wrote:

Wow I remember this, what happened to our game. Instead of talking rich colonies you have a wasteland of ice and snow that doesnt really represent the game. The new areas are set a whole wilderness away from town instead of the other way around.

Scores of talking npc's are slowly getting removed from the game, do the boss mobs even talk to us any more?

I miss eq2 the first 3 years of it. Now its a dumbed down easy mode wow want to be.

While I didn't start EQ2 until 2006 because I never knew it existed I can not believe how it's changed.  It was once upon a time such an awesome place.   I remember NPC's talking and feeling so immersed in the game.  Now well-now it's just a game.  Nothing outstanding about it anymore.  

The other thing I personally miss a lot is the spell graphics they took away. 

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Old 07-08-2012, 03:52 PM   #9
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Ummm, arent you the one who basically called me a troll in another thread, because i miss the old days...?? :oLadyMist wrote:

Wow I remember this, what happened to our game. Instead of talking rich colonies you have a wasteland of ice and snow that doesnt really represent the game. The new areas are set a whole wilderness away from town instead of the other way around.

Scores of talking npc's are slowly getting removed from the game, do the boss mobs even talk to us any more?

I miss eq2 the first 3 years of it. Now its a dumbed down easy mode wow want to be.

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Old 07-08-2012, 04:50 PM   #10
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The orc in that video. SOE, find that model and make an illusion out of it. Pleeeaaaaasseeee

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Old 07-08-2012, 08:23 PM   #11
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[email protected] wrote:

Ummm, arent you the one who basically called me a troll in another thread, because i miss the old days...?? :oLadyMist wrote:

Wow I remember this, what happened to our game. Instead of talking rich colonies you have a wasteland of ice and snow that doesnt really represent the game. The new areas are set a whole wilderness away from town instead of the other way around.

Scores of talking npc's are slowly getting removed from the game, do the boss mobs even talk to us any more?

I miss eq2 the first 3 years of it. Now its a dumbed down easy mode wow want to be.

umm no. you misread or misinterpretated it, thats why I didn't respond to your response in That thread. and the fact your drudging it over here says something about you too.

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Old 07-08-2012, 09:08 PM   #12
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Watching the first video sure brought back memories of when I first started. That was just before ROK was released. That music from the boat scene sure made me miss the starter island a lot. I miss the quests that were required to open a new area. It was sure a challenge back then, right from the start and all the way to the end. I like the idea that you started off as a fighter then grew into your class. I liked more than one stat, you could customize your toon more. I miss, depending on how you spent your AAs, how you could customize their abilities. I was going to get into crafting but buy that time the SC store came out and completely destroyed that idea for me.

I loved choices. I enjoy a challenge. Careful not to blink, you might miss 90 levels.

Dont get me wrong, I still love playing eq2 but it was better at one time.

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Old 07-08-2012, 09:55 PM   #13
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I wish there was a progression server. I'd play until RoK and then quit until they made a new one.

By the way, hi Lateana =)

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Old 07-08-2012, 10:09 PM   #14
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I've been a Norrath addict for a little over 12 years: Quit Everquest Live once and went back. The noob tutorial had changed a few times and I couldn't get out of the tutorial fast enough.

Quit EQ2 a couple of times. Surprisingly a few friends from Live couldn't take the motion of the ship to the Isle of Refuge and didn't come to EQ2 until that passage was removed.

Interestingly nearly a full year before SJ appeared in the Norrath world an article appeared on a fansite about Racing to  level cap. I don't believe the author realized that her contest would take the 'quest' out of adventuring and provide the roadmap to 'end game.'  Nevertheless that was the result and racing to level cap is considered by many to be the norm.

I find it interesting that Old SJ is blamed for game behavior that was in place before he joined the team.

That said my personal opinon is the loss of lore and story line continuity has caused as much damage to the game as the ill-conceived and poorly executed re-itemization.

New Freeport is a start in bringing back story to raiding, questing and crafting. New Qeynos will, hopefully, continue this work.

We as players, whether free or paying, need to stop nit-picking every little thing we don't like in the game and re-focus our energy on looking at the whole picture of Norrath and give the developers a chance to focus on continuity and stop giving us knee jerk 'fixes' for the play style du jour.

Still addicted to Norrath as a casual player.

edited to correct stuff caused by my own server crashing )

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Old 07-08-2012, 10:35 PM   #15
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LadyMist wrote:

Wow I remember this, what happened to our game. Instead of talking rich colonies you have a wasteland of ice and snow that doesnt really represent the game. The new areas are set a whole wilderness away from town instead of the other way around.

I agree and disagree. New Halas does look bad, but I remember not liking the old Qeynos low levels that much because it seemed that most of what I did was menial tasks for people, and I spent a lot of time on sub-area loading screens (which often logged me out to the character selection screen). The new beginning areas at least have more story based quests and no loading screen hassles.

That said, I was sad that the Freeport remake didn't make it a starter area again. If they could just make it one (or two) big area with upgraded quests that's available as a starter area that would have been cool. I'd love to see Qeynos revamped into a new starter area.

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Old 07-09-2012, 01:56 AM   #16
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I mentioned this in another thread with the same video, but man-o-man I wish the 'gathered-round-the-sword-in-the-stone' was the character select screen!

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Old 07-09-2012, 06:26 AM   #17
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This! I'd so play there!

And ladymist its ok to admit a flamebait gone wrong. I showed point by point how you had taken things out of context. You dont respond because you simply cant SMILEY

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I wish there was a progression server. I'd play until RoK and then quit until they made a new one.

By the way, hi Lateana =)

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Old 07-09-2012, 07:29 AM   #18
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[email protected] wrote:

Kasar wrote:

The 2005 E3 demonstration even makes Maj'Dul look more interesting than current content.

That's because that video is very misleading. They manipulated camera angles, gave "players" god-like abilities, and created enemy scripts that totally disregard in-game AI. I was around when DoF launched (as I'm sure you were, judging from your forum age), and the actual game experience was nothing like that - which is fine, this was meant to get people excited about it.

I could guarantee that it would take more than 3-5 text files to make interactive scripts like what was shown in the video that wouldn't have a predictable ending. (Edit: I guess I should specify by stressing the interactive part. Scripts that simply involve NPCs interacting with each other are much easier to implement than scripts that must re-calibrate based on player action.)

The engine looks interesting anyway, graphics engine demos usually have little to do with actual gameplay, and it probably wasn't even running in the game client that was distributed.  I was refering to it being nice if they released the old engine once this game is gone if they've moved on to other things not derived from it, but it's a Sony property..  Source and CryEngine will have to suffice.

The first video shows their idea for Freeport with amassed troops and the door from West to South was open.  That was obviously not how the game itself launched.  At launch, the city zones, even cut down as they were, would lag out many people as the NPC's responded, particularly in Qeynos.  They waved people over if they had quests, since there were no feathers, and all of the nearby voices would queue. 

Of course today, there's no wandering named troll talking to herself about eating people along with the other named NPC's, just a few "freeport denizen" and "freeport citizen" figures standing idle along the roads.  It may still be a performance matter, but the technical reasons seem less important than the loss of immersion.

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Old 07-09-2012, 12:17 PM   #19
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I miss the original game. I miss having endless choices rather than a single path through an area of progression.

Sadly, even though the choices is one of the highlights of the pre-release promo video, all games now are "on rails" with only one or two progression paths from start to finish with very little choice to do stuff off the rails. 

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Old 07-09-2012, 12:45 PM   #20
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if you want hard then gear up your character and join a guild that raids Pow. it's not easy at all.    

 i rather like the fact that people can get gear and do a zone with out the perfect group now a days.   it makes a lot more sense than the moronic zones that use to need raid geard players to get mostly heroic rewards or even worse the days that it took contested gear to clear instance content.  

  right now there is some hard content but most content is simple and that's the way it should be.

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Old 07-09-2012, 02:52 PM   #21
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Davngr1 wrote:

  right now there is some hard content but most content is simple and that's the way it should be.

I don't think that's necessarily true. You can have challenging content targeted at different play styles.

What I think most people are asking for is that sense of adventure that was everywhere in the early days. Compare the original Desert of Flames zones (before they were "modernized") to the Destiny of Velious zones - the developers once encouraged players to check all corners of a zone for new quests. Now, Great Divide, Eastern Wastes, and Withered Lands all contain maybe 4 or 5 quest hubs. Sure, you get the occasional "Help the raptor mother 'protect' her eggs" quest, but this is nowhere near as rewarding as the random quests you found out in the desert.

Personally, I think the recent trend of that "phasing" effect MMOs are using may be the most disturbing. To two different players, the same zone may look completely different because they're at different points of "restoring" it. Going back to the Desert of Flames example, players took part in "restoring" Maj'dul but everyone saw the same thing. I want to see more zone events where the players' impact is broadcast, instead of everyone seeing something different.

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Old 07-09-2012, 06:42 PM   #22
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[email protected] wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

  right now there is some hard content but most content is simple and that's the way it should be.

I don't think that's necessarily true. You can have challenging content targeted at different play styles.

What I think most people are asking for is that sense of adventure that was everywhere in the early days. Compare the original Desert of Flames zones (before they were "modernized") to the Destiny of Velious zones - the developers once encouraged players to check all corners of a zone for new quests. Now, Great Divide, Eastern Wastes, and Withered Lands all contain maybe 4 or 5 quest hubs. Sure, you get the occasional "Help the raptor mother 'protect' her eggs" quest, but this is nowhere near as rewarding as the random quests you found out in the desert.

Personally, I think the recent trend of that "phasing" effect MMOs are using may be the most disturbing. To two different players, the same zone may look completely different because they're at different points of "restoring" it. Going back to the Desert of Flames example, players took part in "restoring" Maj'dul but everyone saw the same thing. I want to see more zone events where the players' impact is broadcast, instead of everyone seeing something different.

--Bolded part first--

On paper, the idea of non-linear questing or adventuring seems like a good idea. For developers, it means they can just randomly add some things to a map and let the player do the rest. But all too often it ends in dissarray and becomes disjointed, with no overall story or encompassing plan to tie it together. For players, it's a nightmare. Before they play they have this romantic vision of adventure and surprise and heroism and so on. But when they start the game and login they go and get lost and can't find something they want or they get killed on the way there. They lose a lot of time doing that. All of their dreams come to a thundering and unfortunate end as they realize there's no guiding plan or story intended for -their- consumption and they're essentially in the world lost, alone and abandoned to fate.

You might like the idea of going it alone and being at the mercy of fate, but most don't. They want a more controlled experience that ensures a minimum amount of frustration and headache. This is why most people for entertainment purposes don't hike in african jungles or swim in the wild ocean. Instead, they go to movie theatres or amusement parks or aquariums or zoos. There's almost zero danger of being attacked by real lions or eaten by disease-ridden mosquitos in a zoo or an amusment park. It's a safe way to enjoy what you want to enjoy. Similarly, if you enjoy violence, watching a action movie is better than jumping into a crowd of angry drunk protesters.

The only realistic way to have it work is to have quest and adventuring hubs that're surrounded by a more non-linear sort of outlands. But what does that add to the game? I don't think it adds anything for most people, so it's kind of useless.

(And btw all of this has been laboriously studied by game designers and is common knowledge.)

--The second part of your post about dynamic zone-changess in response to the player(s)--

I think that players do want to see changes in the world around them that acknowledge their efforts in the game, but I don't think they want it to be at the loss of their enjoyment or access to the content. A shared change to the game that's visible to all players might be a useful way to to keep players on the same page while telling a story, but if players aren't all on the same page then it won't work. How often are players on the same page? I would think not very often. At the end of the day, a game is a story and players will generally be on different pages. By forcing them all to be on the same page, you'll limit their choices and restrict them to the play-time and play-style of others.  I think there should be some shared content that changes in response to the actions of the players, but it has to be moderated.

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Old 07-09-2012, 09:39 PM   #23
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I agree the game has lost that indepth luster, certainly has changed as most of these types of games do over time.

Over all it is still the best product out there.

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Old 07-09-2012, 09:55 PM   #24
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I agree the game has lost that indepth luster, certainly has changed as most of these types of games do over time.

Over all it is still the best product out there.

I agree, even if Holly won't go on a date with me.

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Old 07-10-2012, 02:58 PM   #25
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I miss the commonlands/Antonica/Sewers/etc area of questing where quest can start as drops from mobs or clicky things like a book, desk, rock etc. It made it so it wasn't like a controlled amusement park ride. You get on the roller coaster and rush to the end and it leaves you wanting more. Where a seek and search keeps you going.

Sure have  the main quest line linear to the end but dont remove the side quests, the exploration, the adventure. The "whats around this corner" experience where you might find that tough monster.

I think starred named monsters need to be tougher in the lower content. I shouldnt be able to walk up a orange con ^^^ star name, take away half of its HP in one hit and kill him before I drop out of green.

But that is the way I like things, I might be in the minority I guess.

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Old 07-13-2012, 06:47 AM   #26
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7foggynites wrote:

[...] The only realistic way to have it work is to have quest and adventuring hubs that're surrounded by a more non-linear sort of outlands. But what does that add to the game? I don't think it adds anything for most people, so it's kind of useless.

[...] I think there should be some shared content that changes in response to the actions of the players, but it has to be moderated.

A solution to the first is to make geographically-broad quests requiring players to travel through the wildlands. A solution to both is the trade-route system (including guild-controlled buildings in pre-designated areas) described in the EQ Next Ideas thread.

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Old 07-13-2012, 11:06 AM   #27
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thephantomposter wrote:

I think starred named monsters need to be tougher in the lower content. I shouldnt be able to walk up a orange con ^^^ star name, take away half of its HP in one hit and kill him before I drop out of green.

But that is the way I like things, I might be in the minority I guess.

I agree, if you are using adepts and regular quested gear.  If you are using raid gear with masters then I disagree.

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Old 07-14-2012, 05:30 AM   #28
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I was part of this game back in the beginning and it was an amazing product.  I liked how every race had their own little starting areas and even though the good or evil races were all within the same city, they were still kind of fighting with each other.  It gave the feeling of there really being a disaster and everyone being forced to take shelter within the city.  The progressive class system was a smart idea also.  It let a person experience all of the differences between the classes and let us pick a class that we felt comfortable playing as.  With all the heroic encounters to be found, small side areas that were optional like the Qeynos sewers, the whole feud between Qeynos and Freeport...there was so much stuff in the original game that made it great.

Unfortunately, over time the MMO genre has been changing.  Back in the early 2000's, playing an MMO was considered as a nerdy thing or only reserved for the more hardcore gamer.  Companies wanted to expand the market to accomodate the more casual gamer as well and so games started to get "dumbed down".  As the years have gone on, people's lives have gotten busier and we can no longer spend 5 hours everyday playing these games.  So again the content has been changed so it's easier for the busy person to experience some of the more advanced things and higher level content.  I used to be someone that enjoyed grouping and all that type of stuff but now I prefer to play solo and so it's nice that I can still experience most of the content in MMO's these days.

As much as myself and everyone else might not like seeing this game or any others out there becoming easier or losing some of it's features, we have to understand that games change according to the market.  Whether it's due to attracting more casual gamers, accomodating people's changing lifestyles, or even making things easier for people because it's tough to find proper groups, it's all stuff that we have to get used to.  My car used to be in better shape and perform better a few years ago but now it's gotten rusty and is slowly falling apart.  I don't like it and I wish things could go back to how it was but sadly I just have to accept how things are.  I love my car and so I'm not going to get rid of it just cause it's a bit rough around the edges these days.  Things change with age and there's nothing we can do about it.

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Old 07-14-2012, 09:50 AM   #29
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Rijacki wrote:

I miss the original game. I miss having endless choices rather than a single path through an area of progression.

Sadly, even though the choices is one of the highlights of the pre-release promo video, all games now are "on rails" with only one or two progression paths from start to finish with very little choice to do stuff off the rails. 

Me too, the current game isn't even remotely close to the same game at launch.

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Old 07-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #30
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Iad wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

I miss the original game. I miss having endless choices rather than a single path through an area of progression.

Sadly, even though the choices is one of the highlights of the pre-release promo video, all games now are "on rails" with only one or two progression paths from start to finish with very little choice to do stuff off the rails. 

Me too, the current game isn't even remotely close to the same game at launch.

Yea. The game at launch actually had people playing it. And you saw them in cities.

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