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Old 06-13-2012, 03:40 PM   #1
Ruvara
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As of today's patch, healer mercenaries (specifically, the inquisitor is the one who I have any experience with) seem quite a bit more difficult to control. 

Previously, when I knew that I'd be pulling a large group of mobs and didn't want the merc engaging on pull (thus frequently getting himself killed), or when I simply wanted him to med up and still throw heals but not blow mana on combat abilities, I could take him off Protect and Assist.  That way, he would still heal me and cast reactives on me, but he wouldn't get himself into trouble or waste all his mana fighting and/or healing himself.  This was a nice feature, because there are certain situations where I'd like to keep him out of the fray and have him JUST focus on healing.

As of today, however, taking him off Protect and Assist make him virtually useless during a fight.  He doesn't seem to cast reactives, he lets my health go down to orange or red before casting one or more small heals that do not particularly help.  If I tell him to engage, however, he heals just fine.  Additionally, he will heal me after a fight, but that's not when I need it.

While I appreciate that mercs will more reliably protect assigned group members as of the patch, if the loss of control as to whether they can heal while not engaged is an intended changed, I would prefer their old behavior to this.  I suppose that if this was an intended change, then there is not much that I can do about it.  *shrug*  However, if this was not an intended consequence, it would be nice to have this looked at.

Has anyone else had trouble with mercs today?

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Old 06-13-2012, 04:22 PM   #2
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In my best Young Frankenstien voice, "PUT THE MERCENARIES BACK!"

Inquisitor was better before.

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Old 06-13-2012, 04:31 PM   #3
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Inquisitor is my main merc healer for my guard, so I will have to go check.  If that is the case it will seriously stink.

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Old 06-13-2012, 04:45 PM   #4
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It's defenitly not working as well as before. As the OP stated taking em off protect on both options(which you always would before for straight healing/curing) is making em heal and cure much slower than before, if at all.

I don't really know why they even changed the second protect option as it seemed fine to me, only thing that wasn't working well was the assist. Please put it back the protect mechanic the way it was. Assist was the only real broken function.

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Old 06-13-2012, 05:32 PM   #5
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Looking into it. The inquisitor shouldn't have been changed with this patch and looking at the files there isnt anything diferent from before. That doesn't mean something isn't broke obviously. I am digging to try to find the issue and will get back to you folks when I have answers.

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Old 06-13-2012, 05:42 PM   #6
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Gninja wrote:

Looking into it. The inquisitor shouldn't have been changed with this patch and looking at the files there isnt anything diferent from before. That doesn't mean something isn't broke obviously. I am digging to try to find the issue and will get back to you folks when I have answers.

Thanks a bunch, appreciate it SMILEY

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Old 06-13-2012, 05:55 PM   #7
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So, I am not seeing any issues using a guardian to solo the skyshrine solo zones. He is healing pretty fast and curing pretty fast. Can you guys give me some more detailed examples? I have him set to not protect me and not protect self and protect/assist dropdown are set to none.

Any more info you guys can provide would be helpful.

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Old 06-13-2012, 06:29 PM   #8
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I'm working with a Monk and the Inquis merc in the Lyceum solo instance. I turned his protect/assist off and let a group of mobs just hit me for about six minutes and the merc is curing/healing as I remember him doing. He's using Resolute Flagellant, Atoning Faith and Fanatical Healing on a pretty stable basis, curing/healing himself as well. There were a few instances, however, of him not using a heal until I was at ~55% (but curing as I was dropping to 55% still). If you'd like me to post log/timestamps from ACT, just let me know how!

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Old 06-13-2012, 06:36 PM   #9
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I'm not sure how to better describe it so as to help, unfortunately. SMILEY

I've run three inquisitor mercs today, just to double check: one in Dracur Prime solo on my main, one in Runnyeye on an alt, and one in Deathfist Citadel on an alt.

In all cases, while not set to protect or assist, they basically stand there and stare at me while my life goes down.  They used to react much more quickly.  I do get cures, but the heals are sorely lacking.  It was more evident on my alts than anything. 

The merc let my SK die many times in situations where her FD and DA were down, but she still had no business dying, as it could have easily been healed through (and had been previously).  I had my camera angled behind me so that I could watch him, and he would just stand there and do nothing while I fought nameds.  Then he would toss me a heal afterward.  (Sadly, I got healed by the auto-heal that you get once in awhile upon killing mobs far more often than I got healed by the merc).  Very rarely, he would heal minimally during the fight, but he didn't seem to be casting reactives preemptively as he typically does.  And whatever he was healing me with was fairly ineffective, as he couldn't get me out of the orange.  I've never seen them behave this way.

Then, when I asked him to fight, he dumped his mana within minutes.  I don't know why.  I was noticing this with the SK.  She had solid aggro on everything in range.  She constantly threw out taunts, AEs, etc.  For some reason, however, he was getting hit and before I knew it, no mana.  I supsect that he blew it all trying to heal himself.  So I said forget that, and kept him off assist and protect.  But then we were back to the lackluster healing situation.

It wasn't too long ago that I was playing this little SK alt in Tombs of Night and Runnyeye for an AA grind.  I would chain pull large groups and AE, per usual.  And, whether set to assist me or not, the merc performed significantly better then.  My husband and I just duoed the Queen in Cella last night (after MANY failed attempts) and had to keep our mercs out of the fight so that they would just heal us.  It worked great last night, but with the current merc behavior, we could never have finished that fight.

Hopefully someone can chime in with something more specific that may help you narrow it down.

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Old 06-13-2012, 07:17 PM   #10
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Gninja wrote:

So, I am not seeing any issues using a guardian to solo the skyshrine solo zones. He is healing pretty fast and curing pretty fast. Can you guys give me some more detailed examples? I have him set to not protect me and not protect self and protect/assist dropdown are set to none.

Any more info you guys can provide would be helpful.

Before protect was set to my character name, and he didn't attack, just healed and cured.  Now with those settings he attacks. 

Now if I manually set it as you state, he is 'normal'.  it's just a different set of settings to get the same result.  I can live with it.

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Old 06-13-2012, 07:47 PM   #11
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Edit: There were two instances with the merc on assist (and not protect) where he wouldn't heal himself and died. This resolved itself on the third pull and after, but then switching him to just protect (and not assist) made it happen again. Setting it to not protect/assist me and basically just letting him stand there while the mobs hit us (my first post) still means that he's curing/healing me and himself, though.

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Old 06-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #12
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Yes, a change was made to the "Protect" dropdown. Now if you set that to a player its the same as "protect me" button up top only you can designate it to another player. So, this is a bit different than before.

As a side note, I realize that healers currently do not heal well if they are told to attack stuff. We are working on a fix for this so that if someone in the group needs a heal they will cancel their spells if they are not beneficial (i.e. another heal) and the heal will take priority. This should make the protect drop down work a bit more like you would think it works and healers will act a bit more like real healers instead of crazed battleclerics with a blood lust to rival your local gnoll.

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Old 06-13-2012, 07:52 PM   #13
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Gninja wrote:

As a side note, I realize that healers currently do not heal well if they are told to attack stuff.

Ah, I see. Let me pull up the logs and test it with that in mind.

Edit: Yep, that seems to be part of the issue, I think. Having him set to protect and then pulling a group in solo SS instances is making him overwhelmed and he forgets to heal.

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Old 06-13-2012, 07:58 PM   #14
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Gninja wrote:

Yes, a change was made to the "Protect" dropdown. Now if you set that to a player its the same as "protect me" button up top only you can designate it to another player. So, this is a bit different than before.

As a side note, I realize that healers currently do not heal well if they are told to attack stuff. We are working on a fix for this so that if someone in the group needs a heal they will cancel their spells if they are not beneficial (i.e. another heal) and the heal will take priority. This should make the protect drop down work a bit more like you would think it works and healers will act a bit more like real healers instead of crazed battleclerics with a blood lust to rival your local gnoll.

So what you are saying though is that we can't have a mode, like we did, where they ONLY heal and cure, like they did before with the effectiveness they did before? No needing to code for stopping casting or anything.

What benefit did this change have to the player/merc interaction? Were they doing too good a job when set to none or something? If so, just say it and we can move on with it. However, I really dont see a downside to leaving it the way it was for protect none, nor a benefit for how it is now.

Even though the have large mana pools, maybe we want them to conserve it for heals and cures only. Is that possible now like it was?

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Old 06-13-2012, 08:00 PM   #15
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Gninja wrote:

Yes, a change was made to the "Protect" dropdown. Now if you set that to a player its the same as "protect me" button up top only you can designate it to another player. So, this is a bit different than before.

As a side note, I realize that healers currently do not heal well if they are told to attack stuff. We are working on a fix for this so that if someone in the group needs a heal they will cancel their spells if they are not beneficial (i.e. another heal) and the heal will take priority. This should make the protect drop down work a bit more like you would think it works and healers will act a bit more like real healers instead of crazed battleclerics with a blood lust to rival your local gnoll.

But I liked the crazed battlecleric mode. Actually, some encounters call for just that instead of a bandaid passer-outter.

/em kicks Stamper and says "Earn yer keep ya lazy bum."

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Old 06-13-2012, 08:05 PM   #16
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If you set thim to none of dropdowns (except for follow) and protect me/self off he should still heal. I have not been able to get him to just stand there and not heal, but I will keep looking at it and see if I can track down a specific case that might cause that and that would need a fix as it is not intended.

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Old 06-13-2012, 08:40 PM   #17
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Gninja wrote:

If you set thim to none of dropdowns (except for follow) and protect me/self off he should still heal. I have not been able to get him to just stand there and not heal, but I will keep looking at it and see if I can track down a specific case that might cause that and that would need a fix as it is not intended.

Thanks much. It sounds like there was no intended change to behavior when they are set to none, so we appreicate you looking into it.

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Old 06-14-2012, 02:29 AM   #18
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Thanks for looking into the issue, Gninja!

So it looks like the healer files didn't change, but the healer performance worsened. i have a hint for a proabable cause to look into, which fits to the different experiences of the posters in this thread.

I didn't test the healer mercs after the last change, but for the last months i had issues with the inq not healing from time to time. I think i made an observation, which may or may not be true, but if true, may give a hint about where to look into for fixing the healer mercs.

When ever my inq didn't do enything, i always had a feeling of the main char being 'out of sight' even when the inq was very close to my char. For sure having the inq attack the same mob often helped with heals. But sometimes i think i made the inq heal the char again just by moving the char (a good example for the not healing but close healer merc is fighting the epic x2 nightblood in RV around his spawn loc, where the floor is not completely flat). Can someone please confirm this?

So the theses to check are (both can be true, or 1 may be false but 2 very much true instead):

1. healer mercs have a special line of sight for their heals, which can be disturbed much easier than their attack line of sight.

2. healer mercs are not good in running to a loc from where they have a healing line of sight to their healing target. When the healer melee attacks a mob that a char is attacking as well, then the healing line of sight is often no problem.

If one of the 2 theses was true, then probably some line of sight or pathing change may have worsened the helaer mercs' healing performance.

hope that helps

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Old 06-14-2012, 03:06 AM   #19
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I also have to confer with poster since today's patch my inquis has also been acting more like a crazed battlecleric when protect is selected in dropdown.

 

What happened is the drop down ‘Protect’ has changed so now  he engages when before he didn’t it seems and when you turn it off he won’t heal as much either . So either way we lose out on being healed consistently because of this change? I take it, this change took out the choice to make all mercs healers just solo heal only?

Why not add a tab to change healer mercs to just heal only?

Or Once the issue you have with mercs not healing as much because they too busy fighting I would suggest to revert the dropdown protect back?

 

Also while yout at, can you give the option to make mage/healer mercs be ranged?

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Old 06-14-2012, 09:57 AM   #20
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I just wanted to chime in with agreement that I've been having this occur as well.  Playing my shadowknight with the golem inquisitor merc.  The merc seems to randomly just forget who he is and what he is supposed to be doing.  Behaving like that bad healer to loves to randomly go afk.  I have yet to really find a consistent cause for it.  Ill just have the fight going fine and then randomly stop getting heals and thats all she wrote.  Keep in mind that is for somewhat more difficult content to actually take enough damage for this to be an issue.It feels to me like they don't have the focus anymore.  Previously the protect setting forced them to focus on the player but you could still keep them from fighting.  Now you either have them lollygagging around or joining in the fight wasting their power and getting killed.Perhaps an additional tab could be added for healers.  Something that gave the same result as protect did previously for healers.  Call it "Heal Focus Target", or some such.  This is the target he will place in top priority to heal, cure, etc.The forced range option would be nice as previously mentioned.  (since /merc ranged seems to do nothing)  I would also really love to see a way to change merc default options like players can do with other pets so they don't change every time you zone or blink your eyes.  Finally some sort of way to modify mercs follow distance could be another way to allow us to work together a bit more easily.  As it is now, if I don't want merc close enough to kiss I have to run to a spot and turn off follow and then engage the mob in another spot.  If we could make him stay back a bit further this would be much less annoying.  I picture this as yet another tab with options - default, 5 meters, 10 meters, 20 meters.  Random distances pulled out of the air but gives the idea of what I picture.

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Old 06-14-2012, 02:36 PM   #21
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

In my best Young Frankenstien voice, "PUT THE MERCENARIES BACK!"

Inquisitor was better before.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL +1 to you

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Old 06-14-2012, 03:47 PM   #22
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All the suggestions mentioned to "Fix" the mercs are great! However I doubt the developers will implement them, as the proposed suggestions would allow the mercs quite a bit of intelligence if we could fine tune their behavors. And I don't think the devs actually intended the merc system to be that useful.

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Old 06-14-2012, 05:35 PM   #23
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Why are you testing this in a solo zone where healing isn't even required? That alone boggles my mind...

I use healer mercs in contested Skyshrine, you know, where mobs actually do damage, and the change has made healer mercenaries dumbfoundingly frustrating. (As if their lazy healing method wasn't already frustrating)

I made a post about it in the testing forum here:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=519179

But what the issue is, mercs don't seem to use single target abilities (reactives/wards) except for on the target they are set to protect... however, now whenever they are set to protect someone, they bumrush the mobs and die to frontals and ae's almost immediately. If they happen to not die immediately, they spend their mana much faster when attacking, and don't heal as reliably as when they were just standing there (with the protect option on) before.

The method I've been using since this patch, as awkward as it is, is I will turn everything off to go pull, type /merc ranged, then set him back to protect me when I have mobs situated (If I haven't died yet). Doing this method works sometimes, but it's better than the alternative. Even when set on ranged, they will still sometimes run up and melee/die.

Update: Tonight I tried killing all the stuff I used to kill before this patch, and I am cussing at the mercenary so much more than usual, and some of the stuff I just can't do anymore. My /merc ranged method above is only working 20% of the time or so, and even when it does, he usually takes too long to start actually doing anything so I just die. I've also noticed that even when ranged, when he's engaged he burns through mana and does not regen; but when I disengage him by setting Protect: None, he is terrible; all he'll do is spam cast the group reactive, and cure sometimes. It is so phenominally frustrating.

I must reiterate that trying to test their healing on solo mobs, is like trying to balance dps on solo mobs. Everyone kills them in 1 hit, so everyone must be balanced. Grab a 92 tank, grab the skyshrine healer mercenary (I assume designed to be able to heal in skyshrine), and go get yourself killed; then you will see how frustrating it is.

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Old 06-15-2012, 01:51 PM   #24
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Healer mercs really are pretty worthless as of late.  They seem to do one of two things...1) Run up to mobs and die or 2) Stand there and do nothing.

I have tried every combination of merc 'options', positioning, slash commands I coudl think of... and the result is the same.  Its definately gotten worse after recent patch.

Not entirely sure what their purpose is anymore....nobody needs them for 'solo' content so all that is left is herioc content where they are just worthless.  Only my Brigand merc seems to do anything useful.

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Old 06-15-2012, 02:04 PM   #25
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Draylore wrote:

Healer mercs really are pretty worthless as of late.  They seem to do one of two things...1) Run up to mobs and die or 2) Stand there and do nothing.

I have tried every combination of merc 'options', positioning, slash commands I coudl think of... and the result is the same.  Its definately gotten worse after recent patch.

Not entirely sure what their purpose is anymore....nobody needs them for 'solo' content so all that is left is herioc content where they are just worthless.  Only my Brigand merc seems to do anything useful.

Something changed. I want to know what, and why? However, the devs aren't coming here and talking, beyond saying they will look into it. They won't come right out and say the new behavior was unplanned, they just hem and haw and say it is not quite what they are supposed to be doing. That makes me think there was an intentional nerf to the merc behavior. All they have to do to fix it is to change it back to the way it was before, or at the every least come explain why they can't change it back to the way it was before. Another pretty useful feature going up in smoke... They are healers....they should only melee or cast spells when we want them to and should heal like they did before this nerf. Guess that is asking too much.

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Old 06-15-2012, 08:23 PM   #26
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Gninja wrote:

Looking into it. The inquisitor shouldn't have been changed with this patch and looking at the files there isnt anything diferent from before. That doesn't mean something isn't broke obviously. I am digging to try to find the issue and will get back to you folks when I have answers.

I can tell you there is a BIG difference with the Templar.

Group member had it while in CBK.  THe dwarf cured our debuffs but NEVER healed while we fought.  Only after the battle was over and we had members and mercs in the red.  Yeah kinda defeats the purpose of a healer.

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Old 06-16-2012, 03:58 AM   #27
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Gninja wrote:

So, I am not seeing any issues using a guardian to solo the skyshrine solo zones. He is healing pretty fast and curing pretty fast. Can you guys give me some more detailed examples? I have him set to not protect me and not protect self and protect/assist dropdown are set to none.

Any more info you guys can provide would be helpful.

Stamper is attacking mobs when hes set toggled "off" to "protect me" and "protect yourself" on the top icon buttons. This is also causing him to grab agro in group encounters. This is not what he use to do before the patch. I have to keep hitting the back off button just to get him to start healing.

Why did the mercs get a "fix" that is actually making them more difficult to control - and real issues in game are just ignored - like the lack of voice chat in guilds lately?

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Old 06-20-2012, 04:20 PM   #28
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I'd really prefer this thread not to just plummet to the bowels of page 2, as this issue persists and is the sole reason I haven't been playing much this past week.

My suggestion: The protect drop down menu does not cause auto-engage, unless the "protect self" button is checked. Seems fairly simple.

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Old 06-21-2012, 05:35 AM   #29
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Gninja wrote:

If you set thim to none of dropdowns (except for follow) and protect me/self off he should still heal. I have not been able to get him to just stand there and not heal, but I will keep looking at it and see if I can track down a specific case that might cause that and that would need a fix as it is not intended.

 

PLEASE CHANGE them back for they are not healing since this change.

 

Please tell me why you felt this needed to be changed? The “Protect” options acted differently for healer’s mercs so this change has left them acting like they are fighters instead of healers.

 

I would suggest to adding for healer mercs a “Heal Only” tab?

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Old 06-21-2012, 09:13 AM   #30
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Cinnimon wrote:

PLEASE CHANGE them back for they are not healing since this change.

 

It was an intended stealth nerf really. No other way to explain why they haven't reverted these back. All it would take to dispell this is for a dev to com in here, no beating around the bush or doublespeak allowed, and say...

"The change to this bechavior was not intended. At the first oppurtunity after coding and testing a change, we will be patching in a change for healer mercs so that they revert to the previous behavior."

The silence speaks volumes however, so those of us who primarily use a healer merc are just screwed.

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