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Old 05-24-2010, 09:58 AM   #1
snowli

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If you don't have a Mystic Fury or Templar, you can relax, the changes incoming from test shouldn't affect your character, although you may care about what happens to your raid as a whole/team. Here's the situation:

The maths behind how some mythicals (fury mystic and possibly templar) are applied has had a stealth change on test. The useful potency effect is being changed for an increasingly useless ability mod effect that is already capped for many people on many spells. +Ability mod being inferior to potency is increasingly true the better you advance/buff/adorn your character. It will cost my mystic I estimate somewhere between 20% to 45% warding effectiveness on raids, furies get a big knock to both their healing and their damage, I haven't got a good sense of how affected the 2 templar spells are.

Not enough people are aware/complaining/bug reporting about it to get any dev to take time away from threads about mounts & appearance items and so on to actually respond if major healer balance change is even intended. We're likely going to end up with it implemented to live in just a few days, and then it's going to be much harder to get it reverted, especially because a number of mechanics are changing at once like potency cap and muddying the waters. If many healers for example see a 25% increase to their possible output from potency cap changes, it's likely that many furies and mystics might miss the fact they got a 15% or 20% nerf that their counterparts wardens and defilers for example didn't get, they'll just see the 5-10% increase they got and be happy for a while, until eventually the changes in healer landscape become well known.

----------------------------------------

I'll give some example figures and explain how I got them below for those who are interested:

I took off a couple of potency items (like neck & shoulders), turned off heal stance, so I wouldn't run into the problem of the potency ceiling on live not being in effect on test slanting results and then compared the exact same gear setups with 1046 wisdom etc between test and live (both while in my house which is not a pvp zone - if that even matters).

My groupward buff runic armour drops from 544 currently to 413 on test

Torpor the quick regenerating single target drops from 3602 on live to 2679 on test (it has a lot of quick ticks so that adds up to a ton of healing)

Oberon drops from 8864 per tick on live to 7306 per tick on test. again, huge loss across lots of ticks.

Ancestral from 4880 live to 4384 on test

Umbral from 6654 on live to 6425 on test

Things that I could not test easily like ward on cure figures or spiritual leadership for e.g. will be highly affected as they are many hits but for small amounts meaning ability mod bonuses will useless for them as they reached the ceiling long long ago.

When raiding, the buffs one has can make the differences even more extreme, giving the kind of nerfs one sees on torpor a similar nerf effect to bigger spells like single and group wards.

The basic upshot is, when the new way of working things out comes to live, the increase in potency cap might see your healing change in a variety of ways, (afterall everyone has different setups ability mobs potency spell quality etc) it's possible you may not see that the big nerf has robbed you of a very large part of the increase that other healers are receiving.

Either fury and mystic deserved a massive nerf compared to other healers because we were way above other healers and the devs need to say so (not sure anyone really believes that), or they need to remove a selective nerf to just us I've read contradictory reports of how this affects the templar reactives, I think testing them, making sure that potency cap only being removed on test isn't slanting things might be important.

It's worth noting it's sort of a double nerf in some situations, by changing the wisdom potency bonus into ability mod, it means the excellant fury buff that I get in raids doesn't work well at all with the lower potency and therefore ceilings and unstacking ability mod I will now get from mystic mythical. I will no longer have the potency for many spells to take advantage of the fury buff, I'll already have too much ability mod, and my ability mod despite being higher will actually already be capped far lower for most spells. It nerfs both furies giving out the fury myth buff and in my case a mystic receiving it.

If you want to check the changes for your healer with your gear, do make sure your potency in live is set low enough that no spells have a 100% ceiling on live they won't have on test from aa's heal stances etc then mirror that gear/aa/stance selection to test - that way you see the change in mythical effect, and not 1 set of live heal figures that are held down by the potency cap and the test set that can go above the potency cap. having around a 1000 wisdom and a potency under 40% to allow for aa's and not using heal stance worked well as my baseline to turn on and off the mythical buff on test and live and see what it adds with the different maths formulas.

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Old 05-24-2010, 11:38 AM   #2
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Interesting - y would SoE change select healers and not all. For example, A warden and fury's heals are within the same range now given all things equal. Not sure about a mystic & defiler or a templar & inquisitor.

Mystics & Furys & Inquisitors are the dps side of healers. With Druids, wardens and furys are getting purdy much equal love for dps given all things equal. Yes you are saying only mystic and fury are being nerfed their heals but not inquisitor?

The healer side of the equation includes Defilers, Templars and Wardens. Yet, a templar is being nerfed and not the other two healers of the triad?

Y furys are getting nerfed both dps and heals - doesn't make sense. SoE may as well nerf the warden, too because we get free heals off our melee and spells, same as furys.

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Old 05-24-2010, 12:25 PM   #3
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its a side effect from fixing shadowknight's reaver.

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Old 05-24-2010, 01:09 PM   #4
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7 page thread about this on the Testing forum and NOT one response from a Dev........

We would appreciate some kind of reponse....is this intended or not??

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Old 05-24-2010, 01:21 PM   #5
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Im not trying to be hostile here, just trying to understand whats going on....but it sounds like you got a buff to increase your potency beyond the other healers and now theyre taking it away, putting you back on par with the other healers, and youre calling it a nerf.  If Im running around with 39% potency on my raid defiler, and you have the same gear on, PLUS this buff on the mythical.....does that sound right?  You've basically become a better healer thru a buff and not the gear the rest of us have to figure out to help improve us.

I too do not like having things taken away after being able to enjoy it ...sometimes for years.  But back when they designed SF and knew potency would be a factor in how well we heal, why give some the ability to get a free ride over others.  If it was to help put those classes more on par with the other healers, thats great, but it sounds like they gave a bit too much.  Maybe the fight shouldnt be....give it back, but rather, give us some of it back.  Again, Im an MT defiler and there are many times Im no longer in the top 4 of the heal parse and Ive been trying to figure how I dropped down so far while upgrading my gear.

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Old 05-24-2010, 01:56 PM   #6
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No.  It's not a percent potency.  It is simply a potency modifier that has been in the game for two years.  It was put there, on purpose.

If you really want to get get down and dirty, you can look at the fact that in the case of Mystics, they already deal with the fact that for them, crit bonus is only worth half what it is for other healers (this is also true of Defilers).  For a Fury, you can look at the fact that they have been given an inate spell crit of only 1.2 (compared to 1.3 for most other classes).

This nerf does not need to happen.  Plain and simple.

Edit:

This is how "Potency Modifier" works.  A certain portion of your Wisdom is given as part of a buff.  For Mystics it's 30%.  So, with 1200 Wisdom, your "Potency Modifier" is 400ish.

The typical (current on live) formula is this:

( ( Base x (1 + Potency) ) + Myth Amount )  +  @Fun(Ability Mod) = Heal amount

The "new" formula is:

( Base x (1 + Potency) ) + (@Fun(Ability Mod) + Myth Amount)

Example -

Base spell amount = 400, Potency = 50%, Myth amount = 400, Ability Mod = 800

Live = ( (400 x 1.5) + 400 )  + @Fun(800) . . . Final heal = 1500

Test = (400 x 1.5) + (@Fun(800) + 400) . . . Final heal = 900

What's worse, is that the Myth Amount on Test is completely worthless in the above example.  The 800 Ability Mod is already over cap for the spell in question, and thus having the Myth amount or not is irrelevant - you get no benefit at all.

Because of the new placement, the affected classes IMMEDIATELY lose some value, and additionally, it makes added growth more difficult because of the relocated mod.

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Old 05-24-2010, 02:52 PM   #7
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Banditman wrote:

No.  It's not a percent potency.  It is simply a potency modifier that has been in the game for two years.  It was put there, on purpose.

If you really want to get get down and dirty, you can look at the fact that in the case of Mystics, they already deal with the fact that for them, crit bonus is only worth half what it is for other healers (this is also true of Defilers).  For a Fury, you can look at the fact that they have been given an inate spell crit of only 1.2 (compared to 1.3 for most other classes).

This nerf does not need to happen.  Plain and simple.

Edit:

This is how "Potency Modifier" works.  A certain portion of your Wisdom is given as part of a buff.  For Mystics it's 30%.  So, with 1200 Wisdom, your "Potency Modifier" is 400ish.

The typical (current on live) formula is this:

( ( Base x (1 + Potency) ) + Myth Amount )  +  @Fun(Ability Mod) = Heal amount

The "new" formula is:

( Base x (1 + Potency) ) + (@Fun(Ability Mod) + Myth Amount)

Example -

Base spell amount = 400, Potency = 50%, Myth amount = 400, Ability Mod = 800

Live = ( (400 x 1.5) + 400 )  + @Fun(800) . . . Final heal = 1500

Test = (400 x 1.5) + (@Fun(800) + 400) . . . Final heal = 900

What's worse, is that the Myth Amount on Test is completely worthless in the above example.  The 800 Ability Mod is already over cap for the spell in question, and thus having the Myth amount or not is irrelevant - you get no benefit at all.

Because of the new placement, the affected classes IMMEDIATELY lose some value, and additionally, it makes added growth more difficult because of the relocated mod.

So is it worth my time to go out and try and get the fury myth now for my fury or should I just change her class to warden and lose any experts and Masters she has? rerolling is not an option she is too high a level for me to start from square one and I need to get her to end level as quickly as possible so I have a toon I love to play that will be wanted as it seems Rangers are not going to be fixed in the near future.

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Old 05-24-2010, 03:13 PM   #8
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Alima_Tunare wrote:

you got a buff to increase your potency beyond the other healers and now theyre taking it away, putting you back on par with the other healers, and youre calling it a nerf

Yes and no.

As it stands, defilers have an effect added to their mythical that adds additional healing to their 2 main wards.  So, the mystic equivalent to this was to add a significantly less 'bonus' to our wards. So mystics were never 'beyond other healers' as you say.  However, with the new changes, they will be setback by an almost completely useless mythical.

Pre nerf mystics and defilers were even, post nerf, defilers gain a significant advantage over mystics, by having a worthwhile myth.

Devs, please revert this change for non-SKs, or give us something to offset this, and make our mythicals actually worth somethign again

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Old 05-24-2010, 03:29 PM   #9
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If a healing nerf hits the fan and all 3 healing types are no better then one another then all it seems to do is hit how trivial the PVE content is. Now this can be an issue if you need to outgear the encounter to complete it, but if that isn't the case then there's nothing to complain about.

WoW's devs stated right out with the new expansion that healers are taking a straight up 50% effectiveness nerf so that healing would be harder and challenging. Too often players think that healing is hard because of how much you require them. A needed role isn't always the most challenging. I've all three roles in both games and healing is one of the easiest next to ranged DPS in both games (played cleric and druid healing, not tried shaman yet admittedly, so this may or may not apply to them).

If it means you need to regear yourselves, well... welcome to the world of Scouts and Crusaders SMILEY

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Old 05-24-2010, 03:31 PM   #10
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[email protected] wrote:

So is it worth my time to go out and try and get the fury myth now for my fury or should I just change her class to warden and lose any experts and Masters she has? rerolling is not an option she is too high a level for me to start from square one and I need to get her to end level as quickly as possible so I have a toon I love to play that will be wanted as it seems Rangers are not going to be fixed in the near future.

I wouldn't change class to warden just because of a mythical change. However, I have been a hardcore raider and a casual player and semi casual raider. I just don't see the reasoning behind nerfing the fury. According to all the figures that puts the fury well below the warden in both DPS and heals and that's ridiculous. Having a 90 warden, I always thought furies were coolio - their dps is a little bit higher than mine - but not a whole lot, and my heals are a bit higher than theirs, but once again not a whole lot. It makes for a balance between druids. And fun when a warden & fury duo.

So, I just don't see why SoE is changing something that ain't broke - IMO. Yes, I read the thread on test - and the silence of SoE is a mite deafening.

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Old 05-24-2010, 04:29 PM   #11
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Lader wrote:

its a side effect from fixing shadowknight's reaver.

see what happens when you complain about the SK being OP. 

Other things get screwed.  gratz! on your epic fail sk complaints.

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Old 05-24-2010, 04:33 PM   #12
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At least Furies will have a really pretty appearance weapon... that's what's important, right? /sigh

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Old 05-24-2010, 04:38 PM   #13
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This stealth nerf is especially hurtful to Furies since ability mod only applies to the first tick of our over time abilities and additionally it becomes useless when well geared due to the cap on ability mod. This is quite a large blow to furies after we finally have been made somewhat desireable for raiding again. Our mythical was already one of the weakest, but now it is going to be a useless buff if this doesn't get fixed.

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Old 05-24-2010, 08:43 PM   #14
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Basically they are changing them a bit at a time.  Rangers were changed.  Now this group.  I expect it will happen to us all.  They already changed way the Warden's proc worked once already.

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Old 05-24-2010, 08:50 PM   #15
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Is the healing changes only affecting druids? And is it only affecting Mythical procs? Just getting clarification, I'm seeing different points of view here.

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Old 05-24-2010, 09:04 PM   #16
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Is the healing changes only affecting druids? And is it only affecting Mythical procs? Just getting clarification, I'm seeing different points of view here.

Fury and Mystic Only, and then to top it off, Shamans in general get shafted this whole expansion since crit bonus only gives them half effect and most gear went the way of crit bonus over potency this expansion so far.

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Old 05-24-2010, 09:18 PM   #17
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Crit Mit and Potency are uncapped in GU56

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Old 05-24-2010, 09:46 PM   #18
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[email protected] wrote:

Crit Mit and Potency are uncapped in GU56

That has anything to do with this how?

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Old 05-24-2010, 11:06 PM   #19
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[email protected] wrote:

Shamans in general get shafted this whole expansion

QFT

Please don't shaft us again

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Old 05-24-2010, 11:07 PM   #20
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Banditman wrote:

Edit:

This is how "Potency Modifier" works.  A certain portion of your Wisdom is given as part of a buff.  For Mystics it's 30%.  So, with 1200 Wisdom, your "Potency Modifier" is 400ish.

The typical (current on live) formula is this:

( ( Base x (1 + Potency) ) + Myth Amount )  +  @Fun(Ability Mod) = Heal amount

The "new" formula is:

( Base x (1 + Potency) ) + (@Fun(Ability Mod) + Myth Amount)

Not trying to be purposely obtuse here, but how are these two formula's different? What is @Fun supposed to represent?

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Old 05-24-2010, 11:34 PM   #21
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only thing I can guess at for fun is functional ability mod, so have of whatever base is and that varies spells to spell..

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Old 05-24-2010, 11:57 PM   #22
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glowsinthedark wrote:

only thing I can guess at for fun is functional ability mod, so have of whatever base is and that varies spells to spell..

My guess also

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Old 05-25-2010, 12:00 AM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

glowsinthedark wrote:

only thing I can guess at for fun is functional ability mod, so have of whatever base is and that varies spells to spell..

My guess also

If this is so, based on his equation posted: Test = (400 x 1.5) + (@Fun(800) + 400) . . . Final heal = 900

I get that @Fun(800) HAS to equal -100.... because 400x1.5 is 600, and that + (@Fun(800) + 400) has to equal 900, so (@Fun(800) + 400) has to equal 300. That's basically where I get lost on the math.

Also, on his equation: Live = ( (400 x 1.5) + 400 )  + @Fun(800) . . . Final heal = 1500.... then the @Fun(800) is 500.

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Old 05-25-2010, 04:10 AM   #24
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

WoW's devs stated right out with the new expansion that healers are taking a straight up 50% effectiveness nerf so that healing would be harder and challenging. Too often players think that healing is hard because of how much you require them. A needed role isn't always the most challenging. I've all three roles in both games and healing is one of the easiest next to ranged DPS in both games (played cleric and druid healing, not tried shaman yet admittedly, so this may or may not apply to them).

Who cares about WoW?

You think healing isn't challenging already? While all the other classes in a raid are autoattacking while on MSN cyb0r2ing each other the healers are seeing their eyeballs bleed keeping up with heals/wards/cures/curses/debuffs....oh and yes we're expected to dps too. Any other class goes ninja afk and a riad doesn't notice. A healer drops their guard for a second or two and its a wipe. Yeah, easy. Right.

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Old 05-25-2010, 08:57 AM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

WoW's devs stated right out with the new expansion that healers are taking a straight up 50% effectiveness nerf so that healing would be harder and challenging. Too often players think that healing is hard because of how much you require them. A needed role isn't always the most challenging. I've all three roles in both games and healing is one of the easiest next to ranged DPS in both games (played cleric and druid healing, not tried shaman yet admittedly, so this may or may not apply to them).

Who cares about WoW?

You think healing isn't challenging already? While all the other classes in a raid are autoattacking while on MSN cyb0r2ing each other the healers are seeing their eyeballs bleed keeping up with heals/wards/cures/curses/debuffs....oh and yes we're expected to dps too. Any other class goes ninja afk and a riad doesn't notice. A healer drops their guard for a second or two and its a wipe. Yeah, easy. Right.

Well, you could go afk also, because if everyone is afk autoattacking except the healer, you are going to wipe, no matter how godly the healer believes they are.

Lets try for a moment to admit that every role has its issues, and just because you can be bad at a role and be picked up by people who are good at theirs, doesn't make any role any easier than any other to be really good at.

It is easy to be average at DPS, it is also easy to be average at healing, tanking, mezzing, cyb0r1ng, or whatever. If average is your goal, it isn't that difficult. Being GOOD on the other hand, is another matter.

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Old 05-25-2010, 10:11 AM   #26
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Let's say your raiding on the last day of patch, on a particular encounter and your raid's mystic shaman heals for 4k hps and your defiler shaman for 5k hps. The next day the patch comes out your raid resets and does the same encounter after patch, now the mystic heals for 3k hps and the defiler for 6k hps. Did your mystic's ability suddenly become half that of your defiler a day later, did the mystic throw half his gear away - no, just the mythical effect that has been working the same way for 3 expansions suddenly got massively changed.

Why does the mystic suddenly change but the defiler not?

Why does the fury suddenly change but the warden not?

What happening to the templar and why should it be different from the inquisitor?

The dev silence on this is deafening, either they don't know about it, they don't know why it happened (whilst they were trying to fix something entirely unrelated) or they never meant to selectively nerf 2-3 out of 6 healers. This isn't part of some overall class rebalancing, it's just 2-3 really important mythical effects that have been working the same way for years, suddenly being changed for far lesser effects, wich also become eventually redundant effects the more you advance your character.

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Old 05-25-2010, 10:32 AM   #27
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snowline wrote:

The dev silence on this is deafening, either they don't know about it, they don't know why it happened (whilst they were trying to fix something entirely unrelated) or they never meant to selectively nerf 2-3 out of 6 healers. This isn't part of some overall class rebalancing, it's just 2-3 really important mythical effects that have been working the same way for years, suddenly being changed for far lesser effects, wich also become eventually redundant effects the more you advance your character.

They have to know about it, assuming any of them look at the in testing forum, or feedback, or /bug because it was on test for 2 weeks before the update today and it became one of the larger forum threads under in testing.

They know why it happened - apparently the +heal for the healer mythicals shared some code with SK's reaver ability.

They just don't consider it a priority to fix.  Healers might find it easier to ask that they change the way +ability works on heals so it's actually useful, or ask them to change the mythical effects to something useful.  A content change like 'make our mythical effects something that works' is easier to implement than finding whatever piece of code makes the current effect no longer work.

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Old 05-25-2010, 10:42 AM   #28
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2 out of 6 healers got a myth nerf at start of expac, warden and mystic -the warden one is recoverable once you get the myth buff and power procs can crit, the mystic one is double reuse on our casted ability.

Now 2 (or 3?) healers get a massive myth nerf, that seriously downgrades their primary roles by a lot.

Feeling pretty demoralised that mystics get a double myth nerfing, but mostly that it's such a low priority for devs that they won't reply to ANY of the threads that have been going for weeks (let alone actually fix it), everything points to them just hoping to sneak this massive change to healer balance in and ignore the consequences.

Meanwhile if anyone wants to discuss sparkleponies more, they'll be holding seminars and counselling sessions soon. SMILEY

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Old 05-25-2010, 10:51 AM   #29
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snowline wrote:

Let's say your raiding on the last day of patch, on a particular encounter and your raid's mystic shaman heals for 4k hps and your defiler shaman for 5k hps. The next day the patch comes out your raid resets and does the same encounter after patch, now the mystic heals for 3k hps and the defiler for 6k hps. Did your mystic's ability suddenly become half that of your defiler a day later, did the mystic throw half his gear away - no, just the mythical effect that has been working the same way for 3 expansions suddenly got massively changed.

Huh, sounds like what happened to Guardians when TSO came out.

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Old 05-25-2010, 10:58 AM   #30
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snowline wrote:

Meanwhile if anyone wants to discuss sparkleponies more, they'll be holding seminars and counselling sessions soon.

lol

And yeah, mystics are really becoming unbalanced this expac...we have gotten nothing at all, no improvements to healing, DPSing, or utility.....

1) Crit bonus halving

2) Spirit tap nerf (1/2 effectiveness)

3) Myth buff nerf

(and from the previous 2, the mystic myth is worthless now, and I'm being serious)

4) Tons of AE and other effects bypassing wards altogether

5) Dogdog dying all the time to AE attacks that 'bypass' AE prevention

And I'm sure there is more....great balancing you've done guys /clap

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