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Old 08-16-2009, 08:07 PM   #1
Gisallo
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With all of the threads I have been looking at on this issue (and there are A LOT) I have been wondering "how did we get here and why aren't other games facing the same problem?"

I came to this conclusion.  Other games, LOTRO, WoW, WAR etc treat gear differently.  Most games don't have such drastic tiers of gear.  LOTRO?  Heck crafted gear is just about as good as any drop in the game.  Some games make the gear obtainable through group quests (either through straight drops or via a system like shards).  Yet other games let you buy the gear, whether with real money (pay to play) or through points you gain as you level by performing different acts.  Basically they have systems where it doesn't matter if you raid or not you can still get similar quality gear, either through doing hard stuff in a short time or doing easier stuff with A LOT of time spent, OR there really isn't that much of a difference period.

Now we come along to EQ2.  Here the difference between something that drops in Scion of Ice is seen as less than meh to someone who can just clear WoE.  If gear from one type of play (say WoE) isn't clearly BOWN away by a similar item from a x4 raid zone its a disaster to much of the player base.  Guess what I am trying to say that it may not be mudflation, SOE letting gear get out of control, as much as the players wanting an overly stratified gear setup.  If we were to just narrow the difference between the tiers of gear, and/or make it possible for people who just spend LOTS of time to get gear so we can limit the number of tiers of gear that exist, would this not also help stop the problem?  As long as a raider (and I count myself as one) says "my chestpiece MUST be heads and shoulders better than the one 'he' has access too" I don't think there will EVER be an acceptable solution.

So here is a proposed solution that adds to my already posted idea of simply greying stuff out ever 10 lvls.

Eliminate treasured drops.  In doing so increase amount of money that you can get from trash drops from mobs at the vendor.  Also increase (moderately) the drop rate of rares.  Make Mastercrafted armor this "lvl" of gear.  

Have shard armor continue.  Have 2 paths to tier 3.  Either you can get the patterns for "free" by doing x2 raid zones OR by buying the pattern via X number of "uber" shards that require the deaths of nameds in instances.  Maybe say have to clear an ENTIRE instance to get enough "uber" shards to get a glove or boot pattern, y for a leg pattern etc.

Have x4 armor stay the same in order to acquire.

For all of these levels of gear you reduce the difference between the other.  Mastercrafted would be almost or on par with a legendary drop and tier1 shard armor.  I would say the difference between them would be class specific blues rather than generic proc blues.  In this way the person that knows their class is better served questing and getting the shard armor BUT those who could care less are still viable at this level, but in a more general fashion.

Tier2 would maybe 20% better than this, tier 3 20% better than tier 2, x 4 the same 20% than tier 3.  Still have a Few mythical type items that are nutty to get as always and Avatar gear well that is something I won't address because clearly SOE has never had a clue in how to address it.

In this way you still have clear improvements in terms of gear BUT you have narrowed the types of gear.  In doing this crafters get a boost again even at end game.  You have also, while maintaining clear differences in terms of gear quality, reduced the jump between the tiers accomplishing 2 things.  First you minimize the whole BS have/have not argument.  while at the same time you have helped limit the spiraling mudflation.  There should ALWAYS be a divide between tiers of gear, otherwise what is the incentive to bang your head against a mob, and getting the repair bills that come with it, while learning a strat.  That being said the MULTIPLE tiers of gear and the BIG differences between these tiers I think is the core of the problem.  adding some drastic level by level degredation of gear is a cop out which in the end does not address the core issues that got us here in the first place.  

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Old 08-17-2009, 07:06 AM   #2
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You didn't address the actual issue.

You talk about about gear getting slowly better as the means of aquiring it gets harder. You missed the point with a few of your specifics, but in general, what you are suggesting they do is exactly what SoE have done.

The only notable difference between your idea and theirs is that they set the quality of mastercrafted gear to be lower than you did, which is how it needs to be in order to give people an incentive to get legendary drops from instances. Other than that, you have T1 shard gear < T2 shard gear < T3 gear < x4 instance gear < avatar gear. This is how you propose they do it, and is infact how it is done.

The reason for item degridation has absolutly nothing to do with the quality gap of items within a given level range. The reason for it is about the ability for the developers to improve on level 80 gear when the level cap is level 90.

In my currect gear, I am at the level 90 cap on int. The cap on crit is ~115%, and I am over that with my current gear. I am able to cap out spell casting speed with the right buffs, I have base spell damage almost permanantly capped, and I have +spell damage high enough to not care about getting more. The reuse speed on my important spells is already capped, and adding more to what I have wil be of minimal effect.

This is why item degridation is needed. In order for SoE to provide me with items that I want to spend time getting, they need to develop a whole new set of effects. This is what they want to prevent, the need to add in tripple/quadruple spell attack in the future. Without item degridation, my eyes will gloss over things like spell crit chance on an item, much as they currectly do with int.

How did your system address any of this?

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Old 08-18-2009, 07:03 PM   #3
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Noaani wrote:

You didn't address the actual issue.

You talk about about gear getting slowly better as the means of aquiring it gets harder. You missed the point with a few of your specifics, but in general, what you are suggesting they do is exactly what SoE have done.

The only notable difference between your idea and theirs is that they set the quality of mastercrafted gear to be lower than you did, which is how it needs to be in order to give people an incentive to get legendary drops from instances. Other than that, you have T1 shard gear < T2 shard gear < T3 gear < x4 instance gear < avatar gear. This is how you propose they do it, and is infact how it is done.

The reason for item degridation has absolutly nothing to do with the quality gap of items within a given level range. The reason for it is about the ability for the developers to improve on level 80 gear when the level cap is level 90.

In my currect gear, I am at the level 90 cap on int. The cap on crit is ~115%, and I am over that with my current gear. I am able to cap out spell casting speed with the right buffs, I have base spell damage almost permanantly capped, and I have +spell damage high enough to not care about getting more. The reuse speed on my important spells is already capped, and adding more to what I have wil be of minimal effect.

This is why item degridation is needed. In order for SoE to provide me with items that I want to spend time getting, they need to develop a whole new set of effects. This is what they want to prevent, the need to add in tripple/quadruple spell attack in the future. Without item degridation, my eyes will gloss over things like spell crit chance on an item, much as they currectly do with int.

How did your system address any of this?

I understand thats ONE issue Nooani but I think another issue is that the jumps in gear quality are just too big.  You need to narrow those differences down so that you do not get the big bumps at the tail end to help prevent the issue from occurring again.  I do believe in degredation but based on tier not level btw.  What happens here is a nice compromise.  You have the gear degrade by tier.  Yes that means that this expansion people can wear 80 gear right up to 89 before it greys out, BUT at 90 you still need to put on the new stuff.  Also since you have the differences between the types of gear narrowed you aren't hitting the stat caps anywhere near as quick when the next level tier rises.  This way people don't feel as hosed by a percieved nerf, you still need to replace your gear no ifs ands or butts by the end of the tier AND you help prevent this problem from occurring again.  Heck you never really did have that problem pre-RoK anyway.

Also I understand you need a reason to go into instances.  Well if you don't want to give your plat to a crafter thats one reason.  Another reason is you NEED to go into the zones to get shards for tier 1 armor if you want tier 2 and again 2 for 3.  Also with the uber shard system in my brain it means that even PURE instance runners have a great incentive to run them over and over again because after clearing X number of zones they can buy a pattern and get their t 3 armor.  I can get a pattern drops by running a single times 2 zone, possibly multiple drops.  They have to run 2 if not more instances for enough uber shards to buy the pattern.  Regardless you have people going in those instance doors even if mastercrafted is almost as good.

The idea of doing what I did with mastercrafted was just to A) help crafters and B) help those who just want to run instances on occassion to be able to do so without getting creamed and it doesn't really hurt progression with the mechanics behind shard armor.

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Old 08-18-2009, 11:13 PM   #4
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You should not be able to get T3 gear, which is quite good, by running two or three heroic instances.  Given that you can't get T2 gear by running two or three instances is a pretty good indication that you're way off base here.  Maybe if they put WoE patterns in for 100 shards apeice that would be reasonable.

Generally speaking though, things are pretty [Removed for Content] balanced when it comes to gear itemization, and the gap between raiders and non raiders is smaller than ever before, with a smoother progression than ever before.

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Old 08-19-2009, 12:10 AM   #5
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

I understand thats ONE issue Nooani but I think another issue is that the jumps in gear quality are just too big.

Its not "one" issue, it is the only issue.

The gap in quality of gear between solo, group and raid obtained gear will not be altered at all by gear degridation, and I do not see how you think it could be.

Take a raider and a non raider in game now. Both have level 80 equipment on, which is kind of standard for most players now.

When they both level up to 90, their gear loses the exact same percentage of its usefulness, leaving the gap between the two at exactly the same at level 90 as it was at level 80.

Now, when they gear up at level 90, the non raider gets non raid gear, and the raider gets raid gear. The gap remains the same.

The belief that gear degridation will alter this is a result of player digression, and is clearly logically flawed.

What you are suggesting is nothing to do with item degridation, it is simply a combination of nerfing raid gear and beefing up non raid gear to lower the gap. Unfortunatly, this gap is so small now, especially if you include T3 gear as non raid, that closing the gap any more than what it is would simply be impossible.

There is a reason Kurn's Tower loot is essentially just renamed heroic loot drops; heroic loot in TSO is as good as, and often better than, raid loot.

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Old 08-19-2009, 04:03 AM   #6
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Without treasured drops , what will transmuters use to level up ?

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Old 08-19-2009, 01:06 PM   #7
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Noaani wrote:

Take a raider and a non raider in game now. Both have level 80 equipment on, which is kind of standard for most players now.

Hey, I'm not picking on you here, Noaani. I just want to use this quote to address this common misconception. Which, I think, comes from assumptions about gear that people haven't even inspected closely enough, because level never mattered before. Most people do NOT have full level 80 gear. I have some of the best non-raid jewelery in the game for my character, perhaps the best short of rare fabled drops and almost all of my jewelery is level 79 or lower. This is because shard jewelry is 79, and most of the drops from TSO dungeons are 79. Presumably, because you can enter them below level 80. Nevertheless almost all of my jewelry is going to degrade as soon as item degredation goes in and there is nothing I can do. I can't get "better gear" because there isn't any for many of my slots. Or there is, but they are really rare drops. Armor I, of course, have level 80 gear for but the jewelery is another thing entirely.

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Old 08-19-2009, 01:35 PM   #8
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Runewind wrote:

Noaani wrote:

Take a raider and a non raider in game now. Both have level 80 equipment on, which is kind of standard for most players now.

Hey, I'm not picking on you here, Noaani. I just want to use this quote to address this common misconception. Which, I think, comes from assumptions about gear that people haven't even inspected closely enough, because level never mattered before. Most people do NOT have full level 80 gear. I have some of the best non-raid jewelery in the game for my character, perhaps the best short of rare fabled drops and almost all of my jewelery is level 79 or lower. This is because shard jewelry is 79, and most of the drops from TSO dungeons are 79. Presumably, because you can enter them below level 80. Nevertheless almost all of my jewelry is going to degrade as soon as item degredation goes in and there is nothing I can do. I can't get "better gear" because there isn't any for many of my slots. Or there is, but they are really rare drops. Armor I, of course, have level 80 gear for but the jewelery is another thing entirely.

That is an issue with TSO's itemization, which was done without degradation in mind. SF's itemization will likely be very different, with most things they intend you to be using at the end (ie most decent drops above say L87) being L90 so that there is no potential for degradation until there is a cap raise yet again.

But with that said, there is still quite a bit of L80 jewelry out there, and L79 isn't all that bad (assuming a linear curve down to 1/3 effectiveness at 10 levels, that means you would lose 2/15 on the parts that degrade, or less than 15%).

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Old 08-20-2009, 06:13 PM   #9
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

That is an issue with TSO's itemization, which was done without degradation in mind. SF's itemization will likely be very different, with most things they intend you to be using at the end (ie most decent drops above say L87) being L90 so that there is no potential for degradation until there is a cap raise yet again.

But with that said, there is still quite a bit of L80 jewelry out there, and L79 isn't all that bad (assuming a linear curve down to 1/3 effectiveness at 10 levels, that means you would lose 2/15 on the parts that degrade, or less than 15%).

Actaully not true.  GEar degredation was a plan that was supposed to go in with TSO or one of the GU's RIGHT after.  We were all (at least a lot of us were) talking about this a year ago and wondering what was going to happen.  However there was enough of an outcry then that they put it on hold. 

Again this idea of gear degredation as planned (not the general concept) is just taking the easy way out.  I know more than a few people that do not expect to play past Feb because they do not want to have to level a bunch of toons up to 90.  If they have issues with just leveling the toons to 90, IF degredation goes in as proposed ( degrading every level) I hope SOE realizes this number is likely to only increase because now people have to not only worry about levels but gearing out every level on top of it.

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Old 08-20-2009, 06:22 PM   #10
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

now people have to not only worry about levels but gearing out every level on top of it.

Every level?

I don't think so...

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Old 08-20-2009, 06:32 PM   #11
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Noaani wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

I understand thats ONE issue Nooani but I think another issue is that the jumps in gear quality are just too big.

Its not "one" issue, it is the only issue.

The gap in quality of gear between solo, group and raid obtained gear will not be altered at all by gear degridation, and I do not see how you think it could be.

Take a raider and a non raider in game now. Both have level 80 equipment on, which is kind of standard for most players now.

When they both level up to 90, their gear loses the exact same percentage of its usefulness, leaving the gap between the two at exactly the same at level 90 as it was at level 80.

Now, when they gear up at level 90, the non raider gets non raid gear, and the raider gets raid gear. The gap remains the same.

The belief that gear degridation will alter this is a result of player digression, and is clearly logically flawed.

What you are suggesting is nothing to do with item degridation, it is simply a combination of nerfing raid gear and beefing up non raid gear to lower the gap. Unfortunatly, this gap is so small now, especially if you include T3 gear as non raid, that closing the gap any more than what it is would simply be impossible.

There is a reason Kurn's Tower loot is essentially just renamed heroic loot drops; heroic loot in TSO is as good as, and often better than, raid loot.

Noonai the jumps are also part of the problem.  If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you.  I am NOT talking about there being a mere gap between raid gear and non-raid gear, BUT the actual distance of that gap between each tier.  This is certainly part of the problem as well.  The mere fact that with current raid gear you can be at caps self buffed is stupid.  This is not going to change unless they reduce the stats that raid gear does provide in the future.  If this happens you have to reduce the amount that t3 gives you, then t2 and t1 in sequence to keep the tier system relevant.  If you apply this logic to master crafted then you might as well eliminate that type of gear period because by the time you get to it there is no where else to go unless you increase the positioning a little of master crafted within this system.

As you do this reduction from the top down, in order to still have gear progression, you must reduce the "distance" between each tier of gear.  If you don't do this you have a number of issues that could occurr.  First you could end up with a situation where the progression between tiers is not balanced.  If the jump between t1, t2 and t3 is the same and its only a mere hop to t4 thats a mess (as an example).  Also if you do not do this reduction AT ALL then what you end up with is a system where the stats on the top tier gear are virtually identical to the prior tier, its just that you HAVE to wear the top tier gear due to a degredation mechanic rather than the fact that the gear is actually a visibile improvement on its face. 

Maybe you are content with playing a game that is set up like that BUT there have been plenty of studies by sociologists that show people don't farm for stuff because they want to be eventually wearing a piece that looks identical to what they were wearing the prior tier and that its an unseen mechanic running in the back ground that makes it worth something.  The studies that go back to when EQ1 first came out showed that people play to SEE the actual number of gold in their bag increase, their level increase and the numbers on the gear they equip rise noticeably.  Its that "ding" that creates a positive reinforcement/pleasure response in the brain and that keeps the subsriptions flowing etc.  Heck its that same seeing the numbers on the gear rise noticeably that makes "pay to play" and plat farmers work, people actually will pay real world money in order to get that uber gear directly or pay for plat to buy it indirectly.

Now yes we have to suck it up for a tier even under my proposal.  We would not see as big a jump between tier TSO and whatever as we saw from EoF to RoK and then RoK to TSO and that will be annoying to many.  The thing is though we would still see visible improvements, though ones that don't have people capped while self buffed, and as this would be the progression through the future it makes it a lot less hard for us to end up in this boat again.  Does it actually require the coders to think and do a little more work?  Yep.  But right now the proposed system is simply one that is the easy way out for the coders, at the detriment of the players and I think for the business model and if the business model takes a big enough hit that means less investment in the game and that means less quality and content in the long term.  

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Old 08-20-2009, 06:35 PM   #12
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Noaani wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

now people have to not only worry about levels but gearing out every level on top of it.

Every level?

I don't think so...

dude READING is FUNDAMENTAL (or perhaps you were intentionally taking this out of context).  I stated specifically before you less than clever out of context  quote...

"I know more than a few people that do not expect to play past Feb because they do not want to have to level a bunch of toons up to 90.  If they have issues with just leveling the toons to 90, IF degredation goes in as proposed ( degrading every level)"

PRETTY DANG CLEAR I am referring to people leveling toons from 80 to 90, especially in all the other threads on  this issue (which you also post on) I state that the system doesn't kick in until 60 for the clarification of others. 

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Old 08-20-2009, 06:38 PM   #13
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Noaani wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

now people have to not only worry about levels but gearing out every level on top of it.

Every level?

I don't think so...

dude READING is FUNDAMENTAL (oir perhaps you were intentionally taking this out of context).  I stated specifically before you less than clever out of context  quote...

"I know more than a few people that do not expect to play past Feb because they do not want to have to level a bunch of toons up to 90.  If they have issues with just leveling the toons to 90, IF degredation goes in as proposed ( degrading every level)"

PRETTY DANG CLEAR I am referring to people leveling toons from 80 to 90, especially in all the other threads on  this issue (which you also post on) I state that the system doesn't kick in until 60 for the clarification of others. 

I fully understood that you were talking about leveling from 80 to 90, but what makes you think you will need to gear out every level in that range?

With top end raid loot, or close to top end raid loot, I'd be supprised if I have more than 4 or 5 items replaced in total when I hit 90. Just because an item loses ~2% of its overall effectivness each level, doesn't mean you need to replace every item every level.

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Old 08-20-2009, 06:44 PM   #14
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Noaani wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Noaani wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

now people have to not only worry about levels but gearing out every level on top of it.

Every level?

I don't think so...

dude READING is FUNDAMENTAL (oir perhaps you were intentionally taking this out of context).  I stated specifically before you less than clever out of context  quote...

"I know more than a few people that do not expect to play past Feb because they do not want to have to level a bunch of toons up to 90.  If they have issues with just leveling the toons to 90, IF degredation goes in as proposed ( degrading every level)"

PRETTY DANG CLEAR I am referring to people leveling toons from 80 to 90, especially in all the other threads on  this issue (which you also post on) I state that the system doesn't kick in until 60 for the clarification of others. 

I fully understood that you were talking about leveling from 80 to 90, but what makes you think you will need to gear out every level in that range?

With top end raid loot, or close to top end raid loot, I'd be supprised if I have more than 4 or 5 items replaced in total when I hit 90. Just because an item loses ~2% of its overall effectivness each level, doesn't mean you need to replace every item every level.

The point is though this system does NOT only effect top end raid loot wearers.  As others pointed out if you are NOT a raider like you and I are you can be wearing items that are [Removed for Content] good that are level 77-79, because most instances are designed to be doable by a level RANGE.  Unless you are going to create instances and contested names, or build onto the shard item system to make up for this you will have the majority of the game being forced to run around in degraded gear simply because their is nothing to replace it with.

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Old 08-21-2009, 10:45 AM   #15
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

The point is though this system does NOT only effect top end raid loot wearers.  As others pointed out if you are NOT a raider like you and I are you can be wearing items that are [Removed for Content] good that are level 77-79, because most instances are designed to be doable by a level RANGE.  Unless you are going to create instances and contested names, or build onto the shard item system to make up for this you will have the majority of the game being forced to run around in degraded gear simply because their is nothing to replace it with.

Non raiders will be able to upgrade their gear while leveling up from 80 - 90 with the legendary items that drop from solo quests while on that path. You won't need to go out searching for upgrades while leveling, because those upgrades will be handed to you.

Look at RoK, is that not obvious?

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Old 08-21-2009, 11:46 AM   #16
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OK,

I apologize but I am confused.  I have read the posts and I get glimmers of what is happening but I am still a bit lost.

If I have read everything correctly what is going to happen is that for every level I go up over 80 my gear will degrade a %.  The problem I have is that it will start degrading almost immediately and if the drops don't happen and luck is not with me I will have some seriously damaged gear at 90.

Gear is what helps us get through some of the higher content MOBs.  We have touched on some of the higher progression MOBS but we can't kill the ones which gives the uber loot.

I have worked hard to be almost fully decked out in T3 and the difference of running WoE before and now are night and day.  The guild I am in we raid not hard-core but consistently and my main issue is that by time I get to 90 and I won't have the gear to be effective in a raid. 

I am probably missing something obvious, could someone please clarify or send me where I get a better understanding.

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Old 08-21-2009, 11:50 AM   #17
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Not everything will degrade. Basically just blue stats and effects, since mitigation already degrades (you just don't see it in an obvious way) and stats already "degrade" against the change in diminishing returns curve when you level.

But you shouldn't be expecting to be using that T3 gear at L90 anyway. Level cap raises always make you need to re-gear, except for maybe a few pieces of gear that was overpowered when it came out. Degradation is intended to make it so that nothing can be so overpowered that it will still be used 10 levels later, allowing them to basically itemize this new expansion without having to worry too much about old items being in the way.

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Old 08-21-2009, 12:07 PM   #18
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OK,

That is sort of what I thought was going to happen but not sure. 

I agree I don't "plan" being in T3 at level 90 but depending on the luck of drops, rolls, and DKP I could be caught at the short end of the stick.

Thanks.

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Old 08-21-2009, 12:08 PM   #19
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dropdoff wrote:

OK,

That is sort of what I thought was going to happen but not sure. 

I agree I don't "plan" being in T3 at level 90 but depending on the luck of drops, rolls, and DKP I could be caught at the short end of the stick.

Thanks.

Try to think back to when Kunark came out. There was such a shear volume of gear given out in quests that you could replace pretty much everything, and that wasn't even designed with degradation in mind. I am sure there will be plenty of gear available in SF to replace the old.

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Old 08-21-2009, 12:44 PM   #20
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Try to think back to when Kunark came out. There was such a shear volume of gear given out in quests that you could replace pretty much everything, and that wasn't even designed with degradation in mind. I am sure there will be plenty of gear available in SF to replace the old.

Exactly.

Non raiders at the level cap have absolutly nothing to worry about with item degridation. You will be guided through the cap increase much as was the case with RoK, and you will be handed item upgrades as you go that are suitable to run the heroic content in at level 90.

You then begin the process of gearing up at the level cap like, well, every other level cap increase in the game, ever.

Raiders only real concern should be that T8 raid gear may not be good enough to kill T9 raid mobs. If this is teh case, all it will mean for raiders is that they need to run heroic instances in order to gear up for raids (unless the quest grind provides good enough gear to kill raid mobs, which I hope is not the case).

All up, there is nothing to worry about from item degridation, the concern should be to do with itemization of the expansion.

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Old 08-21-2009, 12:58 PM   #21
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Noaani wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Try to think back to when Kunark came out. There was such a shear volume of gear given out in quests that you could replace pretty much everything, and that wasn't even designed with degradation in mind. I am sure there will be plenty of gear available in SF to replace the old.

Exactly.

Non raiders at the level cap have absolutly nothing to worry about with item degridation. You will be guided through the cap increase much as was the case with RoK, and you will be handed item upgrades as you go that are suitable to run the heroic content in at level 90.

You then begin the process of gearing up at the level cap like, well, every other level cap increase in the game, ever.

Raiders only real concern should be that T8 raid gear may not be good enough to kill T9 raid mobs. If this is teh case, all it will mean for raiders is that they need to run heroic instances in order to gear up for raids (unless the quest grind provides good enough gear to kill raid mobs, which I hope is not the case).

All up, there is nothing to worry about from item degridation if done correctly, the concern should be to do with itemization of the expansion.

I just can not agree with your statement as posted and added a small correction. We have everything to worry about with item degradation and until we know more, imo, we shouldn't be so complacent and sheeplike. For one, the whole idea of basing it on character level is the very reason why we should.

No one has yet been able to justify why gear designed for the tier it is earned in should now become ineffective for that tier just becuase you are now more skilled (leveled up) avatar! This is a game flaw that is built into the currently proposed (what little we know of it) character based level degradation.

I absolutely support some form of item degradation just not in the form of what we know at the moment.

Oh, and as a note itemization has not exactly been a strong point in this game so I wouldn't peg my hat on it now, allow me to throw a few thoughts out there, Runnyeye 2 cloak, Najena's ring, Choker... I for one am not willing to trust in SOE's RNG to provide me a critical upgrade in a group instance that is required for raid content. Those following items easily show the risk in that. Considering I ran runnyeye 2, way more than should have been needed, to never get the mage cloak, anyone expecting me now to trust SOE to get instance raid loot right is asking me to basically jump off a cliff. I DO NOT SUPPORT USING THE HEROIC INSTANCE PATH AS THE ONLY METHOD FOR NEW CONTENT ENTRY RAID LOOT. The RNG may produce results on a macro scale that is acceptable but on the micro scale we all know it is broke. This is more than just runnign with a guild group, the [Removed for Content] item has to drop!

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Old 08-21-2009, 05:23 PM   #22
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I've been holding my tongue on item degradation because I have yet to see very clear definitions from soe about how this will be implemented. But after skimming through this arguement one statement struck me as spot on and should be everyones biggest question.

Skwor wrote:

No one has yet been able to justify why gear designed for the tier it is earned in should now become ineffective for that tier just becuase you are now more skilled (leveled up) avatar! This is a game flaw that is built into the currently proposed (what little we know of it) character based level degradation.

Lets say I have a ring with 5% base dmg on it and I'm lvl 80. I'm fighting some trakaraptor in kunzar and the ring gives me 5% base to help me kill this mob. Now the expansion come out and I level to 81 or 82. I go back to kunzar for whatever reason and fight that same type of mob. What is the justification of the ring that used to give me 5% base on it to now give me less than that against this very same mob?

This is an extremely vulnerable part of item degradation. This should never happen. The item I used at 80 against a lvl 80 mob should still give me the same affect against a lvl 80 mob in the future regardless of what level I am. I hope this issue is focused on by the dev team and they have an answer for how this will not happen.

The numbers I used are purely hypothetical and I realize the decrease on a 5% item would be miniscule, but they would still be a decrease which is unacceptable.

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Old 08-21-2009, 05:30 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

I've been holding my tongue on item degradation because I have yet to see very clear definitions from soe about how this will be implemented. But after skimming through this arguement one statement struck me as spot on and should be everyones biggest question.

Skwor wrote:

No one has yet been able to justify why gear designed for the tier it is earned in should now become ineffective for that tier just becuase you are now more skilled (leveled up) avatar! This is a game flaw that is built into the currently proposed (what little we know of it) character based level degradation.

Lets say I have a ring with 5% base dmg on it and I'm lvl 80. I'm fighting some trakaraptor in kunzar and the ring gives me 5% base to help me kill this mob. Now the expansion come out and I level to 81 or 82. I go back to kunzar for whatever reason and fight that same type of mob. What is the justification of the ring that used to give me 5% base on it to now give me less than that against this very same mob?

This is an extremely vulnerable part of item degradation. This should never happen. The item I used at 80 against a lvl 80 mob should still give me the same affect against a lvl 80 mob in the future regardless of what level I am. I hope this issue is focused on by the dev team and they have an answer for how this will not happen.

The numbers I used are purely hypothetical and I realize the decrease on a 5% item would be miniscule, but they would still be a decrease which is unacceptable.

What you are talking about is one problem I see with it as well, but scaling gear based on character level is probably so much simpler than trying to scale it against mob level as to make the second option ludicrous to try and implement.

One thing to consider is that even though you will be losing part of that 5%, you will be gaining new spells so your overall damage should not really decrease, especially as you start replacing some of that gear.

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Old 08-21-2009, 05:47 PM   #24
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Theres really no point in playing until the expansion arrives.  Other than raising some alts and maxing AA, everything you accomplish from now until February is wasted.

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Old 08-21-2009, 09:56 PM   #25
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

What you are talking about is one problem I see with it as well, but scaling gear based on character level is probably so much simpler than trying to scale it against mob level as to make the second option ludicrous to try and implement.

One thing to consider is that even though you will be losing part of that 5%, you will be gaining new spells so your overall damage should not really decrease, especially as you start replacing some of that gear.

Thats why I do not understand why they simply don't base the system on tiers.  One of the main reasons for this is to get people to move on from the BEST gear they have from the prior tier.  Most of this gear is at the x0 level.   If you base it on this then as soon as it goes to test, chokers, crimson robes, etc boom...no go.  As soon as you hit 90 the stuff you have that is lvl 80 goes boom.  You are still getting gear as you progress through t9 because you KNOW that as soon as you hit 90 your t8 stuff is going boom BUT as soon as the expansion launches or you rise a level you aren't feeling like you comletely wasted your time.   I'll be honest, I was honestly thinking about only playing my main on raid night anymore because the guild needs me.  I have really NO interest in getting gear (even the still nice uber rare instance drops) etc for ANY of my toons because I will see them degrading as soon as I lvl.

I think there is another issue that has not been addressed.  Are those designing the mobs aware of this and going to take this system into account as they are designing the content?  If a level 80 item is going to be weaker at 81 even weaker at 82 etc. those  coding the content NEED to keep this in mind.  Even in instances there are gear check mobs, and with gear continuously degrading not only are there going to have to be loads of gear but the mbs are also going to have to progress in difficulty at a different rate to accomodate that fact that a guy may now be 82 but the gear he is wearing will be worse.  Since Fyre flyte made it clear with his changes to Soul Lancer and Preds and Rogues that his communication with the other devs (Aeralik in this case) is spotty at best, I have some concerns that you will have SERIOUS issues.  These issues would of course AGAIN be exaserbated for the more casual players because with rai gear you have more room to degrade.  

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Old 08-22-2009, 10:33 AM   #26
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I agree with Gisallo. The problem isnt so much that they want to make sure that players will actually want new loot, more the way of how its done. The main gripe everyone has, is that player gear gets weaker as you level.

The better solution was posted somewhere else:

Turn blue % based bonuses into point-based ones and put them on the same diminishing mechanic as mitigation. Along with that, grey out gear that is 10 levels old - and that should solve your problem AND give you more room to balance things. This will make sure that players actually gain strength again through leveling rather than watch their precious loot actually degrade. You keep the loot the same, and dont degrade the fruits of their effort, you just make it so the mobs take more of those blue bonuses to actually take the same amount of damage.

Personally i dont raid, and its not too likely I will, but I might try. Yet I can completely understand what everyone is complaining about, and I REALLY really really favor the above suggestion which was brought up by another player. Turn blue bonuses into point based ones which follow the mitigation principle. Thatll solve the question of item degradation, and will ensure you wont have people rage-quitting once SF hits because they watch their gear rust away as they level.

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Old 08-24-2009, 04:03 AM   #27
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Thunndar316 wrote:

Theres really no point in playing until the expansion arrives.  Other than raising some alts and maxing AA, everything you accomplish from now until February is wasted.

This is what happens with every expansion, why is it an issue now?

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Old 08-26-2009, 11:21 PM   #28
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Treasured drops should no way be removed, Noaani. Even at level 80, they're still useful for deity faction and for transmuters working their way.

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Old 08-27-2009, 12:02 AM   #29
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Eliminate treasured drops.  In doing so increase amount of money that you can get from trash drops from mobs at the vendor.  Also increase (moderately) the drop rate of rares.  Make Mastercrafted armor this "lvl" of gear.  

Have shard armor continue. 

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Treasured drops have other uses than just selling as vendor trash (i.e., transmuters breaking them down for fragments and a chance of a powder, which at T7-T8 level is worth more than vendor money). Mastercrafted has to be as close to legendary because the rares it uses (rares are the backbone of the EQ2 economy) to justify using them to make MC gear -- otherwise there's no purpose for harvesting itself (the carrot in harvesting IS the rares).

It's a delicate balance.

You can see the problem with T8 MC armor and weapons, which in the scheme of 75+ RoK/entry TSO it's but toilet paper. The rare pricing and availability of incarnadine clusters reflect it, too.

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Old 08-27-2009, 12:23 AM   #30
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

One thing to consider is that even though you will be losing part of that 5%, you will be gaining new spells so your overall damage should not really decrease, especially as you start replacing some of that gear.

Which is fine and dandy for spell casters, but tanks need mitigation gear and if it degrades per level they'll have to keep farming or turning off XP gain and stay level locked until -- by chance -- a better piece of gear drops (and the RNG stinks in trying to get gear when 23 other folks in the raid are all seeking the same -- took 5 plunges in WoE to get that T3 gauntlet, and only because the raid leader declined. Was beat by 1 point in one roll -- heck, no depending on RNG for critical gear!). Enough of that, and folks will be leaving to play another game as they're stuck trying to progress.

Do like the comments above about the blue mitigation bonuses. Maybe like how the GH status works, have to keep putting in status or the guild will lose status over time. So in essence folks wanting to keep their gear in tip top shape, will need to fight to bank mit credits. That is doable and in the scheme of why folks are playing the game -- to kill things for loot.

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